This is my favorite topic, and since snakes are so hard to find here in Michigan, I want your help with a few things.

1. Any Massasauga rattlesnake hideouts? My goal in life is to photograph some in the wild.

2. I saw four HUGE turtles dead on M55 going over the hill before Tippee dam. They were yellowish, 10" carapace. I thought it was the eastern box but, DNR lists them as up to 7.8" caracpace. Any ideas?

3. Any other snakes sightings and what type of habitat they were in would be appreciated.

4. We are looking for evidence of BF, but the DNR can say with conviction that there is only one venomous snake in Michigan, Why couldn't there be a population of Timber Rattlers or (other species) in the hills of N. Michigan. there are isolated populations on the same latitude as us in New Hampshire.

Ohhh..cool thread!
The turtles could have been wood turtles. They have a very distinct black and yellow carapace, and when I was growing up in Paris(north of Big Rapids), they were very common along the Paris Creek, and Muskegon River.
Sadly...like so many things, in the last 20 years the population has apparently plummeted. Last summer, I took a hike along the creek for the first time in 10 years...and should never have done it:( All of my favorite places seem to be gone, and the creek is simply barren compared to what it was like when I was growing up. There were NO frogs or toads to speak of, and loggy areas that used to be crawling with salamanders..you could not find a single one. I think though..the turtles were the most depressing...there is a section that when I grew up, never failed to have at least half a dozen turtles around..year after year, big ones, small ones...
Last year, while the hole is still there....not a single turtle along the entire length of the creek.
Really bummed me out.
On a brighter note...at one of our primary research locations last summer, a colony of 5 lined skinks took up residence in the cement blocks used to line the fire pit, as well as the wooden log benches next to it! Really cool lizards, and the only one commonly found(well...at least, in places!), in Michigan.
Here is a pic I took on one of the stumps right where we were sitting!

Could they have been soft-shelled turtles, Drew? I've seen them before at least a foot across, but the ones I've seen were more of a light olive-brown color.

As far as the Massasaugas go? I think they could be anywhere. Jim was bitten by one as a kid down south of Battle Creek, my grandpa ran into a bunch of them right up here years ago on a lake, and they're up north as well. I think your best best would be to search wood and brush piles out in the country, but I don't know of any areas with particularly high concentrations of them.

Not soft-shelled turtles for sure.

The carapace was too 'humped'

Definitely not snappers either.

It's funny, I've had two people tell me where to find massasaugas, and both times they turned out to be Northern Water Snakes. I think that it may seem that they are findable, but in reality, most people think any brown snake, with a pattern on it is a Massasauga. So there fore most reports of them are misidentifications, So I think they are rarer than most people think. Especially since 95% of people will kill them on sight. (and any snake for that manner)

I thought 5-Lined skinks were just a thing of the past, in fact, I didn't even know there were lizards in Michigan, until last week. That is an absolute freak of nature, I think the idea that a lizard can even exist up here in Mich. is a miracle in itself. What county did you find them in Paul?

I've got an area 5000 acres that I have access to, with two lakes fully enclosed on the property. The lakes were created in the 30's by damming up some creek, anyway, there are hundreds of huge, bright red painted turtles. I've seen painted turtles, and these must be some red-morph, because they have red everywhere, there is hardly any yellow. It may be some semi-isolated sub-species or something.

This website is the greatest web discovery I have ever found. It is in my favorites.

http://www.natureserve.org/explorer/servle...ve?init=Species

Here is a pic of the plastron of a wood turtle. Is it possible they were flipped over, and you were seeing the yellow of the plastron? This is the only noticeably yellow turtle I can think of, other then a softshell.

Oh..I bet it may have been a box turtle!
Here is a pic I found on the net:

Yeah,
It had to be a box turtle. It was way up on a hill so I'm guessing they were trying to cross the road and got whacked

Tippy dam, just below the lower dam or spillover. I kept seeing these huge turtle heads just stick up out of the water, right in the fast water below the spillway, then slowly lower back down. I'm guessing snappers, anyone care to argue that?

I would think so. They are the only really big turtles we have, and maybe they are feeding on dead steelhead or something?

Anyone who sights snakes, must report here. Type, location etc...
If it's in a secret area, just say, "it was in our secret area."

Ah, then I have a report.
Large blue Racer, long enough to stretch across a typical two-track. Sighting was in the Yankee Springs state game area, near Deep Lake. It was last Thursday, so...April 19.
I had forgotten how fast those things are!

This past Monday afternoon... spotted cat in window looking at ground, tail twitching, ears twitching. Garter snake appx. 18" long hanging out in the sun along garden fence, then apparently eating ants.

Here are my top snakes that I would like to find.

1. Massasauga
2. Hognose Snake
3. Rat Snake

Is that just this year, or all time?
I've seen the first two..never came across a Rat snake yet.

I'd like to get them out of the way this year. But I think it will be a lifetime endeavor. Where did you see the first two?

I have seen 3 Rattlers. One was along the creek behind where I grew up(Paris Creek, in Paris, of all places..just north of Big Rapids). The second was along the Manistee River a couple of years ago, and the third was right in Kentwood here, behind where I work(Gander Mountain), back when we were building. They were digging up a field to put in the back parking lot, and it was curled around a puddle. The first two I left totally alone, the last one(at Work), I caught in a bucket(it was just a baby), and drove down into Yankee Springs state game area, and released it way back at the end of a two track, next to a swamp. Figured it was the best I could do for it, as it was no doubt doomed living right in town.
As for hognose snakes...I've seen dozens over the years, although now that you mention it..none in several years. I think the last one that I remember exact details about, I was looking for a place to get down the the Muskegon river, in Newaygo Co. to do some carp fishing, and it was right next to the road. They are really cool looking snakes..we called them "puff adders" when growing up, they were pretty common around Paris back then, and I think I saw them most summers. I do wonder though...they ONLY eat toads, and toads are much less common then when I grew up(I saw maybe one last summer, in all the time I was outdoors :( ) I wonder if they will disappear along with the amphibians...
The loss of our reptiles and amphibians is truly sad, and they are of a nature that most people don't even care...
I cannot imagine a spring without frogs and toads singing, or a summer without tadpoles in puddles..but it's nearly already here.

Drew..I almost hate to post this..but I found this guy today, while collecting some plants for my aquarium down in Yankee Springs state game area(south of Grand Rapids).
I actually saw two today, but the first one got off the road before I could turn around and go back. This one, I photographed, and then took well back into the woods off the road, as there were a bunch of kids in an old pickup truck running back and forth, and they had already tried to hit him once as I was pulling over:( Nice thing about my jeep is that it looks EXACTLY like a DNR vehicle at a glance..so I think they took off when I pulled over, thinking I was a DNR official:D
I am certain I saved it's life..now, if it is just smart enough to stay OFF the roads!
He was SO cool looking...I have an empty 20 gallon tank, and I was very tempted. But...they eat only toads, so it's very difficult to keep them alive or to get them to feed on anything more easily available.









How cool does this guy look! BTW..these snakes are very docile, and will NOT bite no matter what. They just put on a show, and look very dangerous..but are totally harmless. The worse they will do is make your hands smell nasty, and "bump" you with their mouth..a good show, but zero harm to you.

That is totally sweet.
I've been in California for the last 5 days.

Saw numerous skinks
Some frogs
No snakes

Poked around down in Allegan State forest today.
2 garter snakes
1 water snake
1 painted turtle road crossing rescue
2 adult snapping turtle road crossing rescues
2 very small baby snapper rescues out of flooded logging truck track(I would guess the logging will resume shortly, as the skidder was still there..and the turtles were content in the puddle. First time the truck would have driven the road again..smoosh!) Baby snappers were moved to a large marsh about 1/8 of a mile away.
bunch of frogs and frog tatpoles.
still no toads :(

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article...705040429&imw=Y

Front page article in the Detroit Free Press.
Massassauga rattlers.

Made me buy a paper.

Anyway- maybe some good will come of it but probably not.

1. Article said it is illegal to kill them, 90 Days $500, but, it also told everyone that if they say it was threatening them, then you could get off of the charge.
2. Article said there are so many of them that Michigan doesn't even call them endangered.

I think they are considered a species of "special concern" here. It's almost too bad they included the "threat" disclaimer..unfortunately, some people will no doubt just use that as an excuse to kill them at will.

Cool article! I had no idea there were that many of them around. We're JUST north of Oakland County and I know that they at least used to be around here... have to keep my eyes peeled now.

Two videos to add to the Herpetology Thread.

1. My pet corn-snake 'No-Feet' eating a Rat, note the big 'yawn' at the end.
http://media.putfile.com/Pet-Corn-Snake-Eating-a-Rat


2. The Garter snake Jim almost stepped on. Note the green/blue stripes instead of the usual yellow stripes.
http://media.putfile.com/Jim-Almost-steppe...is-Garter-Snake

For Paul
http://www.reptileallsorts.com/westhognose-cs.htm

I new I had read this somewhere. You're probably right about it being a Herp. reaction to the bite itself rather than the venom.

I think our snakes are eastern's, but I'm not sure. That is interesting though..I've never heard of a hognose biting someone, but maybe the westerns are a bit more aggressive!

Yeah, ours are the eastern variety.

Still, imagine the specialization of a venom that is only toxic to amphibeans.

crazy stuff man

Here is a video of either a Michigan Endangered Smallmouthed Salamander, or a lightly patterned blue spotted salamander. I took it In Roscommon county.

Tell me which you think it is Paul. if it's a Smallmouth then they aren't even supposed to live there. And they are endangered.

http://media.putfile.com/Small-Mouth-or-Bl...und-in-Michigan

FORGET IT, I GOT THIS TUESDAY
Hi Andrew:
I looked at the video, and found the image itself insufficient for making a definitive ID, if I ignore the location. But there was nothing about the animal that would lead me to rule out it being a Blue-spotted Salamander. It appeared to be an older juvenile specimen; coloration on these is often indistinct. Coloration by itself is not a good field identification character for the Small-mouthed Salamander; they are extremely variable, and Small-mouthed and Blue-spotteds often overlap in pattern. The proportions of the head and snout area are a better character, and your specimen (in the brief glimpse on the video) did not appear to have an obviously truncated snout characteristic of the Small-mouth.

Thus, parsimoniously, it's mostly likely that you saw a Blue-spotted Salamander.

Thanks for your interest and sharing the video!

Jim

James H. Harding
Instructor/ Herpetology Specialist
Dept. of Zoology/MSU Museum

http://www.diamondreptile.com/pricelist.htm#Venoumous

This guy has a totally sweet list of reptiles/amphibeans if you are interested.

In addition to several garter snakes we came upon the week before, here are two little cuties we found right in camp this past weekend. I hadn't ever seen either in the wild before.

The little green grass snake was probably 22-24 inches long stretched out, and FAST! I caught him to show the guys who had hiked out away from camp. The other one we're not entirely sure about... is he a bull snake, anyone? He was only about 7" long and no bigger around than a pencil. :D

Look how well he blends in! He almost got stepped on a couple of times.

And the little one... he REALLY almost got stepped on, which is how he was found in the first place. :lol:

(closer)

I play basketball with a Scoutmaster, he took his boys on a trip to Gettysburg last week, anyway, they were walking around some ruins of an old prison camp, and the attendant told the kids to watch out for Rattlesnakes.

So anyway, one of the kids finds a snake, checks to see if it has a rattle, it doesn't, he picks it up and BLAM BLAM, bitten once on each arm by a freaking Copperhead. Medevac, 5 days in the hospital.

Anyway, thats a fun herp story, and remember in Michigan, if it doesn't rattle, it can't really hurt you. But not in most other states.

South of Houghton lake this week.
Wednesday around noon, saw two blobsquatches
and two blue spotted salamanders.

They weren't moving to fast this week. brrrr...

http://media.putfile.com/RED-STRIPED-SALAMANDER

RED BACKED SALAMANDERS, Found on my company owned 5000acres West of Otsego Lake, Otsego County, MI

According to the DNR website they are indicators of a high quality forest system.

coolness Drew!
When I finally get around to downloading them off my camera, I have more pics of smooth grass snakes. We found one a couple weeks ago in the same general location as Stacy's. First one I've seen in I bet, 30 years or more!!!!!(I can only recall seeing one other). I was GEEKED!

Yeah,
I haven't seen one in the wild since I was 11 or 12 at boy scout camp
1983??