Over on one of the other boards they're talking about the worst 10 films of 2004 and someone espouses the idea that HERO, HOUSE OF FLYING DAGGERS, and CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON are the top three martial arts movies of all time. Granted, they probably mean the top three wu xia pian, since we all know, and science agrees, that CRIPPLED AVENGERS is the top martial arts film of all time, but it still made me go "hum." And then I went "mmm." and then I went, "oh, oh oh oh," and then I went "oh really?"

I guess if your criteria is production value, then HERO, HOFD and CT, HD are tops, certainly the most expensive and best looking wu xia pian ever made (is anyone else getting annoyed by my pretentious overuse of "wu xia pian"? I am, so from here on out I'm saying "swordplay movies") and that's just about that.

But in a sense of the three that matter, the three that can reach out of a fan-based universe and really show folks what's what and who's who, my list of three is very different.

I'd go with BRIDE WITH WHITE HAIR mostly because it's Brigitte, it's Leslie and it manages to condense the entire genre into one film. SWORDSMAN 2 comes close, and I prefer it in a lot of ways, but BWWH boils it all down to its essentials and shoots it right into a vein. The plot is convoluted, but not overly convoluted, the design is sharp, the central romance is believable and well-acted and it's simple. My problem with SWORDSMAN 2 is that I find it really moving, but I only find it so moving because I've got it all straight in my head. Everyone's motivation, everyone's goals and dreams and conflicts are things I've worked out after more than one viewing and I'll defend them until the cows come home. But in BWWH there's no need to work everything out, there's almost no subtext. It's all on the surface and instantly accessible.

For my number two pick, is there any doubt that THE BLADE belongs on this list? It incorporates everything: flying, legendary swords, baroque secret techniques, warring clans. But it brings it all down to earth and then, not content with just that, rolls it in the mud for a while. Xiong Xin-xin has had plenty of chances to do better in a movie, and he hasn't, so let's assume this is the best he's going to get as an actor. His tiny role burns itself into your brain and that's saying something. Chiu Man-cheuk also gives the performance of his career (whatever career he has left) and the production design is incredible. The final showdown, the flashback fight, and the fight with the monk have, in my opinion, never been equalled in fight choreography. All three are a seamless blend of choreography, editing, design and character. I've seen fights that are as good, but never have I seen three that are so innovative in so many different ways all in the same movie. Chiu Man-cheuk and Austin Wai give great performances in cliched roles, and bring the whole tragic, but intoxicating idea of eternal revenge to life.

Third, I'll have to put in CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON. For all my problems with this movie (lousy ending first amongst them) Michelle Yeoh and Zhang Ziyi are terrific, the choreography is well-served by the cinematography and the music. It's been ripped off multiple times (most recently by Zhang Yimou) but those pounding drums, those running swoops, and those gigantic sets are still thrilling to see the first time through. Part of my dislike for this movie was my reluctance to seem like too much of a fanboy, and my desire to feel "in the know" but let's face it: by the time it was over I'd wet my pants.

So there's my list: THE BRIDE WITH WHITE HAIR, THE BLADE and CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON. What's yours and why?

I don't know why, but I've never been able to get that into Bride. I think it's partly Leslie Cheung's character - he's such a pretty boy (the hair in particular) that I can't be interested in him as a hero. Apparently I'm in the vast minority here, so I'm willing to accept that I've completely missed the boat.

For my top 3, I'll take one each from the masters, representing the 60's, 70's and 80's/90's: King Hu's Dragon Gate Inn, Chu Yuan's Magic Blade, and Tsui Hark's Swordsman 3: The East is Red.

From Tsui Hark, I love both Swordsman 2 and 3, but I have to give the edge to East is Red. The approach was less scattershot, and the craziness is just ... well ... crazier. I'll take Brigitte Lin flying on a giant swordfish over ninjas flying on giant ninja stars, and the submarine is brilliant. Tough call, both are excellent.

From King Hu, Dragon Gate Inn would be my pick. Come Drink With Me and Touch of Zen are also fantastic, and again it's a tough call. Come Drink with me has the music, the landscapes and Cheng Pei-pei going for it, plus it's a trailblazer. Touch of Zen is considerably more profound. However, Dragon Gate Inn has a plot that clicks like finely oiled gears, great performances, and more importantly a sense of humor and fun that are hard to beat.

From Chu Yuan, I favor Magic Blade, though Jade Tiger is a very close runner-up. Needless to say, like most Chu Yuan films, they are gorgeous. Jade Tiger has one of the twistiest plots ever, which segues perfectly into its message. However, Magic Blade captures the essence of the genre perfectly, beautiful sets, exotic weaponry and tricks, convoluted plotting, and Ti Lung as one of the coolest wandering swordsman ever.

Each of those is razor-close, Come Drink With Me, Swordsman 2, and Jade Tiger are every bit as good as the final choices. Come Drink With Me was a sleeper in my case, I was a little disappointed the first time I saw it, but have since grown to love it.

Honorable mention to Chang Cheh for Have Sword, Will Travel and Return of the One-Armed Swordsman, and to Crouching Tiger and Kung Fu Cult Master.

David picked two of my top three: THE MAGIC BLADE and EAST IS RED: SWORDSMAN III. However, to round it out, I would substitute Tsui Hark's DRAGON INN (1992) for King Hu's 1967 original. I'm sorry, but Brigitte and Maggie beat out Hsu Feng and Polly in my book any day of the week. I admire and respect King Hu but I don't love his films the way I love those of my Shaw Bros. faves and Tsui Hark. I enjoy watching Hsu Feng and Polly Shang Kuan, but I don't love them the way I love my Brigitte and Maggie (and Angela and Michelle and Anita and Chia Ling and Lily Li and...eventually Hsu Feng and Polly show up on the list--there's a lot of love in the room).

A close runner-up would be SWORDSMAN II. And somewhere in there is COMET BUTTERFLY AND SWORD, a remake of KILLER CLANS, also high on the list. And a notch or two after that? Yuen Wo Ping's FIRE DRAGON with Brigitte. And THE MAGIC CRANE with Tony and Anita. And of the older Shaw Bros. films? TRAIL OF THE BROKEN BLADE.

I'm sorry, but HOUSE OF FLYING DAGGERS and CROUCHING TIGER don't even come into play on my list. HERO does, though. (Count up the ones I cited and HERO settles in at no. 10, not that I'd want to put them in any particular order.)

It seems that it's a top 3 that somebody who only sees what gets released in the US would be likely to pick, but whilst they're 3 of the prettier martial arts films I don't think I could call any of them amongst the best. It's hard to pick a top 3, but a first pass might be:

1. A TOUCH OF ZEN - a truly transcendental work, 3 hours of pure film-making mastery.

2. ASHES OF TIME - Another transcendental work that turns the genre on its head, and one of the most shamelessly beautiful and pretentious films ever made.

3. DRAGON INN 1992 - I still haven't seen the original, but the 1992 remake epitomises the coolness of early-90's HK cinema, with stunning cinematography and action (and a great cast again).

But how come there's no Chor Yuen, One-armed swordsmen or Cheng Pei Pei in there?

I'll have to go with ASHES OF TIME as my most loved wuxia - perfect acting, great visuals makes it very rewatchable and there is a lot to think about and ponder even if you have seen it a zillion times.

Next would be SWORDMAN II mainly because of the action well done - there is love, adventure, betrayal and sacrifices and well inserted light comedy.

I'm very hesistant on the third since I love just about every film out there (with the possible exception of Swordman) from the remake of Butterfly and Sword, to the manic Kung fu Cult Master to tragic Bride with the White Hair, I can even put Eagle Shooting Heroes there just for the pure fun it provides, but I think I'll also go for CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN DRAGON as my third since I love the story and the characters very much and yes the visuals were much more to my taste than Hero or HOFD (I guess I'm just about the only person who did not like either of them)

So for me it goes as

ASHES OF TIME
SWORDMAN II
CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN DRAGON

I think these three are a good introduction to wuxia and would lay the ground work for viewing films like THE EAST IS RED and ASHES OF TIME.

THE ODD COUPLE (1979 D. Chia Yung Liu with Sammo Hung and Kar Yan Leung)
Just good solid sword/spear play. No fantasy elements to speak of. Sammo Hung and Kar Yan Leung are still at the top of their game.

NEW TALES OF THE FLYING FOX (1984, Kara Hui, Felix Wong)
A good introduction to fantasy wuxia. Fast paced with characters you care about.

THE ONE ARMED BOXER VS THE FLYING GUILLOTINE (1976, D. Jimmy Wang with Jimmy Wang)
This is the one that prepares you for SWORDSMAN II, THE BRIDE WITH WHITE HAIR, etc... Fun fantasy swordplay and boxing.

Still haven't seen "House of Flying Daggers," but the trailers look good. Of course good looking trailers sometimes spell doom. I loved "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon," it was a brilliant paean to the genre, made with a lot of love and respect.

I might be in the minority, but "Hero" just didn't do it for me. I enjoyed parts of it, but it seemed on the whole like empty posturing, and much of what others perceived as profound rang a bit hollow as far as I'm concerned. That Rashomon element also cheapened it, gave it a gimmicky feel, and IMHO of course.

In contrast, I just saw "Soul of the Sword" and thought it was simply spectacular. As a critique of heroism it was simply first rate, and succeeded on many levels. I must therefore put it among my favorites.

A question: Would "Intimate Confessions of a Chinese Courtesan" be considered "Wuxia Pien?" "Cos if it is, it's up there, too.

Does A CHINESE GHOST STORY count? That was the first Hong Kong fantasy I saw on a big screen and it's still my favorite.

SWORDSMAN 2 ranks high on my list as well, BRIDE WITH WHITE HAIR ranks a little lower. I also love DRAGON INN (1992). I 've never seen the King Hu version. I liked HERO better than CTHD. I haven't seen HOFD yet.

First, a question: Are wuxia pian and swordplay movies truly synonymous? Put another way: Get the feeling that wuxia pian specifically referred to films which were based on/adaptations of martial arts novels (written by the likes of Louis Cha/Jin Yong and Gu Lung). In any case, am going with "swordplay movies" because while I know that two of my choices have their basis in Louis Cha novels, am less sure about the provenance of the third film on my list (besides it being a remake of an earlier cinematic classic).

At number one: It's got to be SWORDSMAN II -- A film that has it all (bar for ideal English subtitles and, consequently, a DVD release of the quality befitting it :() for me, including: a great group of main and supporting characters, many of whose viewpoints are clear enough that make their behaviour understandable (and sympathetic) to me; charismatic lead actors (Brigitte Lin shows in such as the lake scene that she doesn't have to say a word in order to shine, charm and outright blow you away while folks who say that Jet Li is as expressive as a cigar store Indian are ones who probably have never seen him as Ling Wu Chung as well as Fong Sai Yuk); a wonderful supporting cast (It's not just Rosamund Kwan, Michelle Reis and Fennie Yuen but also Yam Yee Kwan, Lau Shun, Waise Lee and Chin Kar Lok, not to mention the myriad snakes, scorpions, horses and butterflies who might well have sacrificed their lives towards the making of this movie!!!); memorable songs and stirring music (not just the main "Swordsman" theme but also "Remembering Today's Laughter"); masterful action direction and choreography; a story for the ages; etc.; etc.; etc. :P

At number two: ASHES OF TIME -- A film which I've found intellectually stimulating right from the very first time that I set my eyes upon it but whose emotional resonance has only increased upon each additional viewing. Two other comments about it, if I may: Namely, 1) like with SWORDSMAN II (and my all time favorite film, PEKING OPERA BLUES), it's one of those rare and precious films where different viewings are liable to see me empathising most with different characters. And 2) after a few viewings, the movements effectively slow down to the point that what had seemed but a blur the first few times now actually are observably very well choreographed and interesting action scenes! :lol

And at number three: DRAGON INN (1992). Like many others, I've yet to view King Hu's DRAGON INN and yearn to remedy this situation. Still, for all of my admiration of Hsu Feng and Polly Shan Kwan Lin Fong, I just can't imagine myself adoring and being as beguiled by them in that earlier movie as I am by Brigitte and Maggie in the 1992 remake. And while we're comparing movies: Like with SWORDSMAN II, one of the things I really love about DRAGON INN (1992) is the fine supporting ensemble around the main cast. Actually, when I think about it, so much of what I said I love about SWORDSMAN II -- specifically re the characters, acting, music, action choreography and directing -- could also apply to this film. *And* I think Arthur Wong's cinematography here is to die for in terms of making the most of claustrophic inn interiors along with vast desert expanses.

Re some other candidates: CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON actually is up there -- albeit maybe, in retrospect, in large part because it was the first (historical) swordplay film I managed to see on a big screen in its unscratched, etc. glory (As an aside: Find it interesting that I only truly warmed to another Peter Pau-lensed wuxia work, THE BRIDE WITH WHITE HAIR, after seeing it on a big screen as well...). Also, I've yet to see some seminal King Hu films (e.g., A TOUCH OF ZEN and THE VALIANT ONES as well as DRAGON INN) but the one I've been most impressed by, RAINING IN THE MOUNTAIN, has not touched me emotionally in the way that my top three have managed to do even while also having left me in awe of the auteur's obvious directorial genius and attention to details. Similarly, while I have been appreciative of many of the Chor Yuen wuxia works which I have viewed (with THE MAGIC BLADE probably being my favorite thus far), for some reason, there's been an emotional distance there that has caused me to be more impressed than actually touched.

OTOH, I can't even say that for the Chang Cheh swordplay works I've viewed (E.g., I came away from a viewing of GOLDEN SWALLOW thinking that everyone behaved too stupidly for me to feel anything other than frustration re their behaviour). And I continue to be unable to get through more than about 20 minutes of HERO before the CTHD-retread which is its musical score threatens to drive me insane by causing me to mentally envision scenes from CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON while watching the likes of Jet Li and Donnie Yen in combat. As for THE HOUSE OF FLYING DAGGERS: Try as I might, I cannot muster up enough enthusiasm for it to go buy a VCD, never mind DVD, of the work months after the film had had its (rather short) run in local cinemas...And this from someone who actually thinks that Takeshi Kaneshiro is an extremely adorable young man who should be appearing in lots more movies than he's thus far done!

Hi there,

(I'm a lurker -- hello everyone!)

Just to hijack this thread ever so slightly... does anyone know whether it's possible to get hold of decent versions of King Hu's THE VALIANT ONES and THE FATE OF LEE KHAN? I've seen both on the big screen, thanks to a once-off screening of them, and I'd love to have decent copies on DVD. I've got a very cropped mainland release of LEE KHAN, but it's bad enough to move you to tears... looks like a bad transfer from VHS. :(

I agree with most of the above posts... my top three at the moment would be COME DRINK WITH ME, FATE OF LEE KHAN and THE MAGIC BLADE. King Hu's stuff in particular is just wonderful. And it seems that I need to see ASHES OF TIME and SWORDSMAN II. :)

jv

This is a tough call, and I've been away from home (and my piles of DVDs and books!) so will just add a brief post. I love just about all of the films mentioned in this thread, which makes it difficult to choose three ... but right now I'd go with:

BRIDE WITH WHITE HAIR (1992, Ronnie Yu) -- Grady, good taste! I consider this as close to a perfect movie as I've ever seen.
THE VALIANT ONES (1975, King Hu) -- maybe not the very best from this director but it's got all of the wu xia pian elements and the coolest band of fighters!
HAVE SWORD, WILL TRAVEL (1969, Chang Cheh) -- kinda torn between this and BLOOD BROTHERS, the two very first HK films I saw (in a Honolulu Chinatown theater). I had no idea what I was in for ....

ASHES OF TIME is my favorite film, period, but it's more of an anti-wuxiapian film in its deconstruction of all of the familiar characters and plotlines, so I'd put it in its very own category of wonderfulness.

I enjoyed CTHD quite a lot, a beautiful film that breaks no new ground for fans of the genre but which, in its crossover success (I think many of you would agree) has done much to make our obsessions more understood by friends and family.

I've been lucky enough to see all of these films and others listed in this thread, first on the big screen (in the USA, no less!). I'm delighted that newer films such as HERO and HOUSE OF FLYING DAGGERS are getting a wider release, as the theatrical experience of watching a gorgeous, bloody and soaring swordplay film is a real treasure. Happy Movie Holidays, everyone!