In the last LT debate I was in, one of the Cloti's asked the Cleris people why we were so against a Cloti ending to AC. She asked if we didn't want Cloud with Tifa because we didn't like her, or what? What was so wrong with a Cloti ending?

I didn't answer at the time because I had to consider why I'm so against a Cloti ending. I think the main reason for me is that it would totally contradict my understanding of the game. I saw a beautiful love story happening between Cloud and Aerith, and I want to see that love story completed in AC. His love for Aerith effected his motivation and actions within many scenes, especially at the end of the game where I saw Cloud promise to meet Aerith and make a vow to be with her again - somehow, someway - because he loves her.

It was left to our imaginations how that would happen, but Cloud spoke of that vow again in Tactics, and actually seen meeting with her in KH. Since Cloud's vow to search for and meet Aerith has been repeated outside of the game by Square, they should let us know how Cloud does it. AC is their perfect opportunity to show us that.

To me, CloudxAerith was the only love story happening in FFVII. Cloud ending up with Tifa would completely contradict what I understood Cloud to promise at the end of the game. It would contradict what I understood Cloud's dream to be at the end of the game - to be with Aerith again because he loves her. When someone interprets the ending of the game to mean that Cloud intends to search for Aerith, it doesn't allow for another love to replace Aerith. It means that Cloud will do everything to be with Aerith again, no matter what it takes. If Cloud doesn't follow through on that, it means that Cloud gave up - and that destroys his character.

Besides that, I think Cloud and Tifa would make a terrible couple. :lol: So what are your reasons for being against a Cloti ending?

Well, you basicaly said everything...But I think they wouldn't last. Cloud is a depressed fellow and Tifa isn't half as cheerful as they say. They would have fights or just wouldn't talk with each other.
Tifa never made Cloud smile if I recall it correctly...but Aeris did!
And Tifa loves the Cloud she imagined or just his physical. It's not Aeris that likes the Zack in Cloud, Tifa does.

In the hand reach scene, it might've not be Aeris hand, but at least Cloud wanted it to be and he stated he wants to meet her, like she wanted to meet him. How can he love someone else, be with someone else, after this?

I think that, in the end, the lifestream will keep Cloud's body for all the good he did to the planet (like Aeris) and he'll finally meet her 'there'.

Well let's see.

1. Well like SJ said, they wouldn't last.

2. A Cloti ending would go against Cloud's character.

and finally...

3. A Cloti ending would be kind of cheesy. I mean Square has made really emotional scenes like Aeris' death, some of the scenes in FF8, etc. If they ended AC with Cloud pairing up with Tifa, it wouldn't be as emotional it would just be cheesy and cliche.

Those are my reasons.

I love Tifa as a character, but I don't support the Cloti pairing. I have twomain reasons:

1. Cloud and Aeris have a much more complex and romantic relationship. I prefer Cloud and Aeris together then Cloud and Tifa.

2. Cloud and Tifa do not have the capabilities for a long-term, sucessful romantic relationship. They are much too alike, both shy and reticent. There will be little to no communication, so they'll barely know each other. It's almost like a marriage of strangers. If they remain as friends though, they could be an ideal pair.

I have to agree with all of your reasons. :lol: Just because a couple looks good together (physically) doesn't mean that they are really meant for each other. If you hadn't played the game, and found a Cloti picture on the Net, I'm sure someone would definitely say, "They look nice, no?" :)

But Cloud and Tifa would fall apart totally. Tifa loved the Cloud who had the appearance to be immortal, he was strong, confident, etc; If she got together with Cloud, she would see his weaknesses, his flaws, and would she continue to love him then? Aerith saw Cloud through all of the Zack-ish-ness ( :wacko: ) and was able to see his weak side, and she continued loving him for it.

Would Tifa see Cloud as the little, weak boy again at Nibelheim once she gets together with him? Would his "immortal" exterior be torn away from him when she gets to see who he is?

Tifa and Rufus look better together ^_^

The text in blue is something that I put in a previous thread but it fits my reasons for not wanting Tifa with Cloud :

The cheese factor is not my only complaint. AC will pretty much be Cloud's story; he will deal with the guilt and the pent-up emotions that have been building up inside him since FF7. Center stage are his forgiveness for Aerith, his hatred for Sephiroth, conflicts with the SHM, how he will rescue the children, and on top of it all, the deadly disease that is slowly taking his life.
And where is Tifa? From what we've seen of her, she's playing the part of the caring, well-meaning friend, but there is a wall between her and Cloud. She doesn't have a firm grasp on everything that's making Cloud tick right now, on anything that means something in Cloud's universe (In fact, Vincent seems to have a better grasp than her) Cloud's present issues don't even come close to his supposed romantic feelings for Tifa (unless you count that unlikely theory that he wants to ask Aeris forgiveness so he can be with Tifa )
If Cloud does survive AC, he will be a significantly changed man. But if he shacks up with Tifa, that would be SE saying "Oh by the way, after all he's dealt with, Cloud realizes that holy crap! he loves Tifa and now they are going to spend the rest of their lives together" It would be scrapping the very foundation that made Cloud Cloud

Cloud and Tifa are... simply impossible. Their so-called "love story" (whatever the Clotis might refer to it) is so unreal and against my understanding of the whole concept of the game itself. Their "relationship" was nothing... it was... like you just make it happen in your head; I don't know! It's like a non-existent thing if it's Tifa and Cloud together!

As for Cloud and Aerith, well, need I say more? Anastar already said it. ;)

:cleris:

I agree with you, Tifa Lockhart. They never had a relationship to start with, they were just acquaintences and it's only when he left did Tifa think that they had something going on. Why do people wanna make up a relationship which never existed ?

Atleast with Cloud and Aerith, those two in the short time they had together, they managed to get to know each other and somewaht develope some feelings for each other :cleris: .

I think I'm just repeating what everyone has said earlier so I'll just stop here :P .

I have many resons why I don't think the relationship would work out but
the biggest 1 is the that Tifa never told Cloud the truth about nible(have no idea how to spell the town) he had to find out at the reunion in the nothern crater
could that whole mess be avoided if Tifa just told Cloud the truth?

Yeah, probably. I know that one of the main reasons is USED TO dislike her. But I guess you figure, you need plot twists, right?

::still thinks Tifa should've told the truth::

:rolleyes:

Mm, I don't support Cloti because I (like many others here) don't think that Cloud and Tifa would have very good relationship with each other. I think it's maybe because they're not very open with their feelings. As for Aeris, she was really light-hearted and carefree, and I just think that opposites attract. I love Tifa as a character, though, but I just can't see her and Cloud more than as very good friends.

Some people say that they like Cloud and Tifa together because they like pairings with history. Well, Cloud and Tifa might have a some kind of history indeed, but I wouldn't say that I like them because their 'history' wasn't very pleasant (at least for Cloud), wasn't it? What I find strange is that I found a site where the webmistress supported Cloti and Aeris/Vincent... she told reasons why she supports Cloti and why she doesn't like CloAer, how Cloud and Aeris have nothing in common or something, and what was the funniest part was that she ended her ranting with saying "Aeris and Vincent are a good couple, because Aeris could make Vincent open up more".

Umm, and Aeris *didn't* make Cloud open up more during the game, didn't she? :rolleyes:

More than friends, less than lovers. Huah huah haa! :devil:

Toxo:

One word for their close relationship: FAMILY!!!!! :woot:


Enima:

Hrmms...throughout the entire game, I don't believe Tifa had ever thought there was "something" going on between them. If she had believed so...why had she been so timid and scared of revealing her love and feelings to Cloud? I think that to her, his feelings for her had been just as unclear as it'd been to us. It wasn't until the Highwind scene when she finally attempts to reveal her feelings and that's when I felt she'd gotten an answer from Cloud and understood what his feelings for her were.

At least, that's how I'd interpretated the game...

.

Just thinking of Cloud pairing with Tifa drives me up the wall. Even when I played the game, they don't really click with each other . When they were in Kalm, Tifa just stood there and agreed to whatever Cloud told everyone during the flashback evernthough she knew it was partly false.

She says she cares a lot about Cloud, but why ignore him when they were younger?
I honestly feel that a girl like that is not right for Cloud, he deserves someone better than Tifa which is Aerith :cleris: ..

To me, Cloud and Tifa are just neighbors whom never really got along till they met years later.

Does anyone else get the feeling that Tifa's feelings for Cloud aren't sincere? She totally ignores him as a child, but then she forces him into making this Promise after she learns he's going to become a SOLDIER. When making the Promise, Tifa says that Cloud should come rescue her IF he becomes famous. What if he didn't become famous? Then she says that she started looking in the newspapers for his picture. The only way his picture would get in the newspaper is if he did something famous as a SOLDIER. <_< Then Tifa lies to Cloud about his memory problems, which isn't being much of a friend, if you ask me.

Tifa's feelings for Cloud don't seem sincere to me at all. She's just trying to make him into something he's not, rather than accepting him for what he is. <_<

Good point, Angelic. That's the way I saw it, too.

Anastar:

Honestly, the first time playing through the game, I never did notice what you've pointed out there. However, after having re-examined the whole childhood flashback, I do get the feeling that her feelings for him, back then, hadn't been exactly sincere. She even appears, to me, to have been rather selfish.

I agree with what you've said, Aly. Tifa'd also said that she'd like to, at least once, experience the feeling of having gotten rescued by "her hero", correct? I feel then that the whole promise that they'd made had been for the purpose of fulfilling that "childhood dream", not that she'd actually been interested in Cloud himself, as many Clotis seem to believe.

I've often pondered why Tifa would hide Cloud's past from him. Some have stated that she'd simply been worried and didn't want him hurt by the truth. I can understand why they would think that way as she happens to be a caring person. However...I feel that there'd been more behind that. I think she'd ALSO concealed the truth for herself. If Cloud HAD failed to join SOLDIER, what would happen to her childhood dream and his promise of rescuing her once he'd become famous? Would her dream ever be fulfilled then? Apparently not. In a way, this leads me to think that maybe she, herself, hadn't wanted to accept the truth, therefore, it's why she'd gone along with his false memory of him having become first class SOLDIER. Another selfish act, perhaps? :unsure:

Well, I think everything I would have said has already been said - I agree with basically everything stated here so far. The only statement I would disagree with is Anastar's assertion that Tifa's feelings for Cloud were insincere. At least as an adult, I don't think it was so much a matter of sincerity as it was self-deception, confusion, and emotional immaturity on Tifa's part. Severely misguided? To put it lightly, holy crap yes... :whistle: But I dunno about insincerity...

Actually, I think that's a very very good way to sum things up. Good call Hades! (errr, or whatever works as a short name...). I've been looking for a way to described how Tifa and Cloud's relationship appears to be (especially in AC) and you just covered it: it can be described as some sort of odd familial relationship. Cloud and Tifa are more like a somewhat estranged brother and sister than lovers, by a long shot. There may be some closeness and affection, but it's "familiar" and "familial" in character.
(oh - and excellent quote too, Toxo ;) )

I think the memory problems and the "If you're famous" thing should be taken separately :D After all, Tifa was a child, and a very shallow one at that when she asked him to be her hero...if he becomes famous. But she was an adult, and a very shy, insecure, emotionally unstable one at that, when she hid Cloud's memories. She clearly thought she was doing the right thing for the guy she loved. Maybe she was insincere when she was nothing more than a snotty brat but I do think her mature love for Cloud was sincere...she just didn't go the right way about it. And besides, it wasn't reciprocated ;)

I completely agree with you Kusari - she may have been shallow as a child, but the adult Tifa had other problems/issues at hand. I think we should avoid assuming that the child and adult personalities of both Tifa and Cloud are exactly on par - people grow up and their personalities get modified (though not completely changed, however).

As people grow, their new experiences affect the way they think. They "mature" as they go along. Kinda like a child thinking they know everything and when they grow up, they realize that they really don't know much at all.

Tifa acts like the typical child who craves attention with her circle of friends. Cloud wishes that he could be involved with the popular people as a child. They both grow up and they change. Tifa becomes insecure and withdrawn while Cloud realizes that being popular means absolutely nothing. They become different people as adults, which is why they can get along finally. But while Tifa wants to be with Cloud, he has moved beyond that stage and the only thing he would like from her now is her friendship. If he was still interested in Tifa, he would have shown much more attention to her. And besides, if they were so much in love, they would have told everyone how happy they were together after the Highwind scene. Cloud would believe that not even Sephiroth would keep them apart. But Cloud is indifferent and Tifa isn't outwardly happy much at all.

The answers are in their actions.

I think that Tifa's childhood actions are connected with her actions as an adult because she grew fond of Cloud by dreaming of him after he left. She looked in the newspapers for him, day dreaming about Cloud becoming a SOLDIER. He would only get in the newpapers if he did something famous as a SOLDIER, and that would be the hero that she wanted to come rescue her. Tifa fell for Cloud by day dreaming about what she thought Cloud would become - a hero to rescue her. That's like some fangirl falling for an actor or singer that they see in fan magazines. That's a very shallow and insincere love.

Tifa got to know Cloud later, but she still keeps harping on him about the Promise, which is a reflection of her feelings for him as a child. She still wants a hero to come rescue her. Then she lies to him about his memories. Now, in AC, she's nagging him about not wanting to fight Geostigma - why? Because the hero of her dreams would fight against Geostigma. ;)

I've never wondered that. Put yourself in her shoes, and what would you do? Interupt Cloud during the flashback and say "No, that's wrong"? ESPECIALLY if you like the guy and don't want to embarass him? And how do you approach that? I'd be worried there was something seriously wrong with Cloud(which there was!). Tifa's no trained psyciatrist, she's not going to know what to do in that situation. And besides, with everyone right there she'd have to explain it all to them at the same time.

They were alone in Gongaga when Cloud asked her if she knew Zack:

(Tifa is standing outside a building.)
Tifa "Zack......"
Cloud "Do you know him?"
Tifa "N, no, I don't know him!"
Cloud "Your face tells me differently."
Tifa "I told you, I don't!"

That was a perfect time for Tifa to tell Cloud that some of the things he'd said in Kalm were wrong, but instead she lied to him about it. Do you think Aerith would have lied about it? If Tifa had told Cloud the truth, Sephiroth would never have been able to make Cloud think he was nothing but a failed experiment of Hojo's before the Reunion. Cloud gave Sephiroth the Black Materia as a result. What would have been best for Cloud? To hide the truth from him?

Hmm, good point. All I can say is that she'd already led him on believing it was him...Eh, alright. You've defeated me! Argh!*falls over*

Another falls to Anastar. :lol:

I think she has earned this:

*Edit* Bah, hang on. Photobucket didn't like the gif. <_<

Mwahahaha... Aly, are you suggesting that Tifa may have been somewhat responsible for Aerith's death, then? :angel:

I'm not sure that Aerith's death could have been avoided, but I do think that Sephiroth casting Meteor at the Reunion could have been avoided.

Sefie:

I think Aly's response was an excellent one. Just thought I should add that I agree there'd been MANY opportunities for her to have told him the truth. I'm well aware that she cares about him greatly, but this also leads to me wonder why she didn't just tell him then. When you care about someone and know you're the only one who can help that person...wouldn't you do it? I mean, especially if there's nothing you, yourself, could possibly lose from doing so? As I've said, I understand she herself wasn't exactly healthy in mind. She's a very insecure character, and I feel she'd also concealed the truth for herself as well as for what she'd thought would be for Cloud's benefit. It's not so much that I feel Tifa, as an adult, didn't have sincere feelings for Cloud, but I also completey understand where Aly's coming from. Tifa'd had a childhood dream, correct? That dream had been to at least once experience the feeling of having gotten rescued by her hero, that famous SOLDIER. Hence, the promise she'd had Cloud made with her had been to fulfill that dream, not that she'd actually been interested in him at the time.

Why not help Cloud out by revealing to him the truth if she'd had nothing to lose from doing so? Perhaps she did have something to lose. If Cloud'd never made it to SOLDIER, her childhood dream would never be fulfilled. The way I see things: she hadn't wanted to accept the truth, therefore, she'd resorted to self-deception and gone along with Cloud's fake stories and the fake image of him having been that first class SOLDIER. Adult Tifa being a bit selfish? I personally think so...

Anastar:

I've always felt this way too.

Come to think of it, maybe she did have something to lose. Which may not have been Cloud getting into SOLDIER to fullfill her dream to be fulfilled, but maybe she just didn't want to let go of him as he was now a warrior worthy of praise.

Ofcourse she gets a little jealous when Cloud pays more attention to Aerith, but doesn't she realise that it's just the same way she and her friends had been treating Cloud? Why doesn't she just face the facts that Cloud has his own life to live?

I'd like to say that I'm with you, Angelic. Tifa is being slightly selfish.

:cleris:

well, maybe one reason why I don't like a CloTi ending: it would be senseless, meaningless, and it would ruin Cloud's reputation. I mean, look. Let's analyze. In AC Cloud risked everything, even dying of Geostigma to see Aerith. Even if two years had passed, he still wanted to meet her...again. And then, at the end, Aerith helped him and all, telling him "Everything's fine now...right?". And Cloud smiles.

And this. IF cloud moved on with Tifa, wouldn't i tbe this way: "okay! Aerith saga is over! Now time for Tifa!". Wouldn't that be OOC for Cloud? Or if ever he did, what kind of man is he? It would not only be sad, it would be frustrating! And meaningless, since after 2 years and all of the trouble to get to see her *poff!* Tifa time! :mad:

and that is why, I do not want to have a CloTi ending..

Well, one thing's for sure, we definitely didn't get a Cloti ending, so you can rest easy about that. ^_^ :wub:

It was all Cleris!!! Clouds walk in the park proved it!

Unfortunately, Tifa not telling Cloud whenever he asked her (they were supposed to be friends, and even young Cloud wants the older Cloud to confront Tifa and ask her) is one of the factors why she's not one of my top female fictional characters.

Yes, it is arguably Tifa wants to protect him, but she admits herself that she was overall scared, and that she needed more time to tell him. Her lack of trust for him is a bit of a step back for me, so I wasn't taken in by the "romantic implications" of the Lifestream event everyone else was claiming.

Anyway, that's just me. Tifa redeemed herself in the Lifestream event, and she's ok.

But not as Cloud's potential partner in life. I should think...

Well, I don't hate Tifa for lying to Cloud because I understand why she did it. It was one of her character flaws, and each character has one, but to her credit she does grow through the game and eventually gain the courage to face the truth.

And there won't ever be a Cloti ending anyway, Nomura knows better than that. :whistle:

Their personality clash very much I doubt there will be ANY relationship at all! I understand Tifa cares for Cloud very much but we have to look at what Cloud wants!

To add to Anti-R's line of argument, Cloud hasn't been shown to be completely honest to Tifa in many occasions either. It's not that Cloud is out to deceit her either, it's more like he isn't comfortable with telling her everything about him.
I think there might be an essential clash of interest between the two of them. Seems to me that Cloud tends to believe that Tifa wouldn't like what he likes... funny eh?

I agree with you, STA. ^_^

It's true! Really! *goes to look for some evidence to back it up*

And honestly, Aeris x Cloud is a much better pairing than Cloud x Tifa. Even though they are opposites, they seemed so perfect for eachother. ^_^ :lmao:

IMHO, they're perfect for each other because they're opposites. ^_^

Cloud and Tifa are too similar in personality. Both are very introverted people, with a ton of issues in their head but hardly any of it being verbalised. How many thought that none of Tifa's insecurities in Case of Tifa were ever revealed to Cloud? Ever? *raises hand*

Aerith is like a breath of fresh air for both of them. Someone capable of speaking her mind. That's why I think she works so well in pairings with both Cloud and Tifa respectively. :lol:

Agreed, I think CoT made it clear that they both want different things in life. Cloud may have tried the family life earlier, but it became apparent that it wasn't what he truly desired.

[EDIT] And now I just realised I have unbumped my Kaitai Shinsho post. :headbang:

It's not that Aeris and Cloud was the only love story in FFVII, it's that a big part of the feel in that game is that love hurts.

Let's look at how the following end.
Aeris/Cloud: Aeris dies
Jessie/Cloud: Jessie dies.
Vincent/Lucretia: Vincent goes into seculsion for years, Lucretia is mutated
Hojo/Lucretia: Hojo turns against Lucretia
Ifalna/Gast: Ifalna is imprissoned, Gast is killed
Tseng/Elena: Tseng is killed
Elena/Reno: Despite him liking ehr, absolutely nothing happens
Rude/Tifa: See Elena/Reno

there's a few more, but I think this is enough to start seeing a patern.

Eh....actually Tseng wasn't killed, he's alive.

Personally, I like Tifa as a character. From my view, I think she just acts
like what a normal girl would do today. Being selfish about her feelings,
trying to deny the truth, being jealous because the guy she likes's attention
is someone else other than, it makes her like a normal girl in love type of
person.

But though I like Tifa, the reason I wouldn't like a CloTi ending is because
they would not work out together. Like everyone else says, they are similiar
especially when it comes to emotional problems. They are strong physically,
but mentally they act like a child, not knowing what to do and how to handle
things. I am more towards the opposites attracts type of coupling, which
is one of the reasons why I like Clerith :D

I think Tifa pushed her views of how she wants Cloud to be. She wanted Cloud
to be her so-called "knight in shining armor" who comes to save the "damsel
in distress", but of course, this is what most girls dream of, right?
well, unfortunately, Cloud isn't one "knight in shining armor". He's just a
ordinary boy who dreamt of becoming a SOLDIER like what every other boys
would dream of. And I also couldn't agree on why Tifa didn't tell Cloud about
the truth. Yes, I agree she didn't want to see him get hurt...but wouldn't it be
more painful to know that the person you trust, and also a good friend of yours,
kept the truth away from you?

I would...I would be shocked.

Yes, sometimes the truth hurts...but its better to have been kept in a secret.
If Tifa really did care for Cloud, I think she should've told the truth, even if it hurts
him. I mean, even if it did hurt him, I think she was scared that she wouldn't be
able to encourage him, that she wouldn't be able to have the power to stand up
again....

But then, these are all my opinion so... :whistle: