The question of whether Cloud really had a crush on Tifa was brought up in another thread, and I wanted to look more closely at the evidence. I've always found it very questionable that Cloud actually had a crush on Tifa as a child.

There's three things during the Lifestream Event which people usually take to mean that Cloud had a crush on her. The first is in the following passage:

Tifa "Talk to me. About anything, some important memory to you..." "Now that you mention it, why did you want to join SOLDIER in the first place?" "I always thought it was a sudden decision you made......"
(Suddenly, the transparent Cloud high above speaks. Tifa doesn't hear.)
"......I was devastated. ......I wanted to be noticed."
(The Cloud of the well echoes these same words.)
"......I was devastated. ......I wanted to be noticed."
(The next words come only from the Cloud of the well.)
"I thought if I got stronger I could get someone to notice........."
(Tifa nods.)
Tifa "Someone has to notice you...? ......who?"
(The Cloud above speaks again.)
"Who.........? ......You know who! ......You, that's who."
(The Cloud of the well speaks differently.)
"You......"
Tifa "......Me? Why!?"
Cloud "Tifa...... did you forget...... about those days?"

Everyone always takes this to mean that Cloud is talking about his personal devastation - his crush on Tifa that was never reciprocated. But when Tifa asks him what he is talking about, Cloud talks about the memory of her fall at the bridge. I think it was her fall at the bridge that caused Cloud to be devastated, not a personal devastation that she wouldn't notice him.

Another thing used to show Cloud had a crush on her as a kid is a statement during the Lifestream Event that Cloud used to look up at her window from outside. Funny, but I can't find that statement in the script. I'll try playing that sequence of the game again at some point to make sure.

The last thing that makes people think Cloud had a crush on her is when he says, "......a sealed up secret...... wish......" "Tender memories...... no one can ever know........." Again, everyone assumes that his secret wish is to have Tifa as his girlfriend, and that the "tender memories" involve his broken heart.

Now, put Cloud's words in the context of what happens during the Lifestream Event, as well as in the context of the whole passage:

"It's important to me...... I hate to say it but...... It's a very important memory......" "Do you want to see it?"
(Teenage Cloud runs over to stand next to the third and final Cloud. Past him can be seen a window, without a building past it to look into. Tifa speaks to the Cloud seated there.)
"......a sealed up secret...... wish......" "Tender memories...... no one can ever know........."

The important memory that Cloud tells Tifa about aren't memories of a broken heart - the important memory is Tifa's fall at the bridge and how he got blamed for it. That means that the "secret wish" is that he had been strong enough to keep Tifa from falling. That would also mean that the "tender memories" are referring to something that hurt him. What hurt him? Getting blamed for letting her fall at the bridge. Again, Cloud's not talking about a crush that he had on Tifa. He's talking about her fall at the bridge.

So, did Cloud actually have a crush on Tifa? Are people reading meaning into these passages that they don't have?

Actually, I think it was Cloud wanting to belong. And being with a group of friends with a popular girl seemed to be the step in the right direction.

And then Tifa's accident in the bridge, along with everyone else accusing him it was his fault. He then gets this crazy idea that if he was stronger (like Sephiroth, funny that), he could have saved Tifa and earn everyone else's respect.

Course he didn't became SOLDIER like he told everyone else (not just Tifa, so I really doubt the CloTi's claim he did it solely for her), and was so disappointed and embarrassed at himself to the point he actually downplayed himself in his own flashback (notice the "grunt" was being such a nervous wimp?) and replacing himself with Zack. It was kind of tragic, in a way...

I think Cloud liked Tifa, he did try to go after her when everyone else left her behind. Cloud in the game doesn't seem to think too much on her anymore (especially when he wanted out from AVALANCHE and then apologize for Tifa on his decision, forgotten the promise, and telling her he can't fulfill it... it's strange for a guy who supposedly likes her).

i read in the japanese translation cloud has never been in love with tifa, not even a crush when he was little. He wanted to play with her because he tought maybe it would be the only one who would acept him, because the other children didnt noticed him. He wanted to be her friend.

But in our version i think yes, cloud liked tifa when he ws little.

but...because she was the only girl in the town :D

Oh my God, I never noticed that before! :lmao:

Hee hee, no wonder even the adults in town treat her like a princess :rolleyes:. Poor Cloud *hugs Cloud*.

lmao@Daga, too right.

On a serious note, I agree with most of you here. I do believe CLoud had a crush on Tifa when he was a kid, but the crush did not stem from his loving Tifa as a real person (I mean come on, he didn't know her real personality as a kid, did he), but from his desire to be accepted and liked by the people in the town. Tifa was popular, he observed, if he could get Tifa to notice and like him, hey he could very well be accepted too!

I agree with you on that and I never realised that Tifa was the only girl in town.

She's the only girl that we see in town, but do we know that she's the only girl who lives there? :unsure:

If you look carefully at the passages that imply he has a crush, I think they're really talking about her fall from the bridge. (See the first post.) I think his devastation was about being blamed for her fall. His "tender memories" were also about being blamed for the fall.

IF he had a crush on Tifa, then why didn't he jump at her offer to be her bodyguard at the well? What Tifa asks at the well is essentially the same as what Aerith asks him later - protect me, be my bodyguard. Cloud was reluctant when Tifa asked him, but not when Aerith asked him.

I don't buy it. I don't think Cloud had a crush on Tifa at all.

That may be true... but can we really call it a crush if that's the foundation of it? A "crush" implies attraction. How can you call it a "crush" when he's just wanting to be accepted?

i think Tifa is the only girl in the town because it not, in the nibelheim flashback, when Cloud think he is Zack, you will notice if you go into the diferent houses, there arent girls! :P

Well....memories could be faulty. I think there were more girls than that...and who knows, maybe they're in their houses or something. Never in the game that it was implied that Tifa was the only girl and the only one. We see what we get to see from the memories.

I'll have to agree with Anastar. The more I think about it the more I think it was not a crush. I think Cloud just wanted to belong and make friends. It was already hard enough for him to be lonely. Yes, Clotis always say that the 'secret wish' and 'tender memories' refer to his devasted crush on Tifa. But if it was so true, wouldn't they show something different instead of the memory of where Cloud got blamed for Tifa's fall. Where Cloud tells himself that it was because of his weakness that he couldn't do anything. And when he asked her to meet him at the well, he talks about joining Soldier, nothing romantic or promising her that he'll save her like she was his princess. The whole 'saving' concept came from Tifa and not Cloud. Cloud wanted to become stronger to get rid of his weakness. Maybe to him, it was like," If I become stronger, than they'll accept me. I'll be part of the group too."

Yes, he wanted someone to notice him, someone to accept him for who he is. Someone to be friends with and shared dreams with. Tifa was the center of attention for those boys and if Cloud's longing to fit in, she would probably be the right choice for him so that he can be in the group also. Wanting to be accepted and having a crush is two different things. They're not the same. :no:

It could still be called a crush even if that was the foundation. . Whatever you call it isn't important...that's just a name for it. If it wasn't really attraction, if it stemmed from his wanting to he accepted, then the whatever-you-call-it that he had on Tifa was just mislabelled as a crush. But it wasn't a real crush, it wasn't the heart-pounding, OMG she's-lookin-at-me kind.

Okie, IF he had a crush on Tifa. Well, she ignored him and bullied him, didn't she? If I were Cloud, my crush on her would have fizzled out the moment she asked me to be her bodyguard...the nerve of her to do so after she treated me that way! That's what I'd be thinking.
And that's just assuming he did have a crush on her.

This is an interesting topic - whether or not Cloud had a crush on Tifa at all. ^_^ For me, I believe he had a crush on her, but not a really powerful/strong one.

Hmmm... another interesting piece.

Well, before the well, he had failed (in his mind) to try to protect her when she was crossing the bridge, because that's what he thought was his duty. He was blamed for not being able to help her, right? His self-esteem must've taken a blow from that, more so if he had a crush on her.

So when she asks him to be her bodyguard when she needs him, he must've been taken aback. The memory of the bridge must have returned to him, which was why he refused at first. What if he couldn't protect her properly again? What if she died next time?

However, when he failed at entering SOLDIER, Cloud felt total humiliation. He couldn't impress Tifa or the villagers, and probably tried to forget about the promise - it had turned into a painful wound. How could he protect her now when he wasn't even in SOLDIER?

~Hopeful_Angel~ well, that makes sense..

I don't think Cloud really liked Tifa that way, he probably just *thought* he *liked* her. He was a kid, what do kids know much about love?? Besides I don't think Cloud experienced love till he met Aerith. Cloud's the type who woudn't know love even if it were right in his face. What about Tifa?
If he really loved Tifa, and felt guilty for it, he ought to have shown little sign effects and hints, and maybe since I play the game the CloAe way, I don't see them, but aah I don't know. Also, if Cloud's crush on Tifa was real, it looks real minor to me. He does not. show. any. affection. to her. And it's like he's pushing her away, protecting her? Well. NO. He doesn't seem to want her to notice, look, or care for him.

exactly =D

in Costa Del Sol, dont take tifa in your party and go to jonnys house: you will see him and Tifa talking, and when cloud enters,,,do you know what tifa do???!! she will say:

cloud...im talking with jonny about or childhood...please, i will see you later....we are remembering our childhood ( or something like this)

WHY SHE DONT SAY: CLOUD, YOU ARE MY CHILDHOOD FRIEND, COME WITH US TO TALK.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, SHE WILL SAY JONNYS WAS HER FRIEND!!

WHAT DO YOU THINK??!! :mad:

Wasn't she also flirting with Johnny too? I can't remember the exact details. But really, that is like so MESS UP of her!? Yeah. I can see how great a childhood friend Cloud is to her. She's acting like she did when they were little. Ignoring him.

This is why I just don't believe that there was a crush EVER between Cloud and Tifa. As children, you're too young to know what love is like or romance. Sure, having a childish crush ( or at least you think you do) is not true love. Its like me saying,"He's cute. I like him." Would that imply that I love him? No.
Making promises that children don't understand don't always end them in keeping them. Sure, I made a lot of promises to my childhood friends. That I promised them all my money. That I promised them we'll meet one day. That I promised them I'll come save them. AND the end results: They were all broken and made up.

You can make a so-called promise supposingly during childhood but do you really think that children can understand it?

I don't think so. :no: Because when you grow up, you'll learn from other people (or yourself at a mature age) that promises are either to be kept, broken, or just made up for a convience to that person.

He was a child. The so-called crush could've easily faded away... and if he thinks that he still has a crush on her at present, it could've been out of blindness or denial due to the "devastation" he felt upon not being able to get noticed. After all, he was like a loser in childhood, right? It's like a frustration that nobody really noticed him, not even the other kids. He wanted to play with those children but nobody cared. :unsure:

But the "devastation at not being noticed" is exactly what I'm questioning, along with other evidence that he had a crush on her. If you look at the passage where he talks about his "devastation", I think he's actually talking about his devastation about letting Tifa fall at the bridge and not being strong enough to prevent her fall. (See the passage in my first post). I'm not at all sure that the devastation was really due to not being noticed. Cloud says:

"......I was devastated. ......I wanted to be noticed."
(The next words come only from the Cloud of the well.)
"I thought if I got stronger I could get someone to notice........."

"......I was devastated. [<-- notice the period] ......I wanted to be noticed."

I think he's saying, "I was devastated AND I wanted to be noticed", but everyone takes it to mean "I was devatated BECAUSE I wanted to be noticed." I think what he really means is, "I was devastated because I let you fall at the bridge. I wanted to be noticed so that I could play with the other kids". Those are the memories of devastation that Cloud talks about when Tifa asks him to explain. He doesn't talk about Tifa not reciprocating a crush.

well they said that cloud had a crush on tifa right?
but did he himself ever admit? <_< i dont think so *im only saying what i think*
and with aeris it was love right?
i mean look how he acts around Tifa (he acts to serious)
then notice how he acts around Aeris :cleris: (he seems more friendly)
okay im done here thats all i have to say about this :woot:

He was probably devastated that he was a loser and that nobody cared about him, not even his former crush Tifa Lockheart. *shrugs*

Who said? Square? Nope... I've never seen anything from Square saying that Cloud had a crush on Tifa while he was young. It's just the way people usually interpret the game.

That's why I wanted to look at the evidence again in this thread. I'm not so sure that Cloud ever had a crush on Tifa.

Would someone like to try and prove that Cloud did have a crush on Tifa when they were young? I think you'd have a hard time. :rolleyes:

The word tender doesn’t necessarily mean fond or cherished. It can also mean fragile, handle-with-care, I-don’t-wanna-talk-about-it…which suits Cloud’s memories of Tifa and his childhood. The mistake of some Clotis is when they equate “secret wish” and “tender memories” to “ohhhh, I was pining away for Tifa and I wanted her to be my girlfriend”…but Cloud is deeper than that. I believe that he was drawn to Tifa for other reasons. His wish to be accepted for one. Also, the fact that she was so popular with the townsfolk and her playmate…his exact opposite.
I have heard others say that he was reluctant to accept the promise at the well because he was so afraid of failing her again. But seeing the cold way Tifa and the other kids treated him, I think it had more to do with his fear of being subjected to others’ criticism—he was blamed once for not protecting Tifa and it had already alienated him from the whole time. That’s why he had to get away. He had to prove himself to everyone, not solely to Tifa.
Ahhh, I think I just rephrased what everybody else said

Anastar:

Anti-R:

Sorry to say, all ya Clotis in this thread *biatches!*, but I'm in agreement with Anti-R and Anastar on this one :devil: :angel:

I'm along the line that he had been a lonely child and had wanted friends...not that he had been love-sick and had wanted a girlfriend. <_<

I think it was frying pan from AC.net who believes that Cloud's world had revolved around Tifa as a child, and that he had been "obsessed" with her. Psssh...that's a bit of an exaggeration. Many Clotis' interpretation of his childhood seem to run along the same line as FP's, but given Cloud's reactions to Tifa's half-confessions of love during the game though, I just don't see how it's even clear that he had had a crush on her as a child. Sure are strange reactions from him then, considering that he had had romantic feelings/had been "obsessed" with her... :rolleyes:

Exactly... that's the way I see it, too. The "tender memories" bit doesn't seem to mean that he was pining over Tifa at all. "Tender memories" can also mean sensitive memories, and Cloud's memory about letting Tifa fall at the bridge is sensitive. If "tender memories" was referring to Cloud pining over Tifa, then why did he show her different memories?

Same with Cloud's reference to a "......a sealed up secret...... wish......" "no one can ever know........." The wish Cloud shows Tifa about is his wish to be stronger. No one can ever know about it because it reflects his guilt over letting Tifa fall. Like Cloud said later, "I was so angry... Angry at myself for my weakness." His wish was to be stronger, not to be Tifa's boyfriend.

Yep... that's the way I see it, too.

Yes, it was Frying Pan saying that, and I agree with you. The evidence used by Cloti's to say that Cloud had a crush on Tifa can easily be interpreted in a different way. There's nothing conclusively showing that he had a crush on her. It could just as easily be that he was a lonely kid wanting to be part of the group, which is actually stated in the game. It was never stated in the game that he had a crush on Tifa.

IF he had a crush on Tifa, I doubt that Cloud would have been reluctant about agreeing to her Promise at the well. IF the Promise was significant to Cloud, I don't think he would have forgotten it, either. IF the Promise was significant to Cloud, I don't think he would have said that he couldn't keep it.

Agreed...completely. This is going to be a strange post, but I'd just like to add that I'm throughly confused with how Clotis are even seeing the storyline as a whole. According to their version, Cloud had been in love/obsessed with Tifa as a child, hence, that had been the start to the whole reasoning behind the 21 year old Cloud's mental breakdowns.

There's something here that just doesn't make complete sense to me. If his "obsession" with Tifa had been the start of everything (the most important thing to Cloud then), why doesn't the rest of the story itself focus on Cloud's continuation with that obsession or why isn't there a conclusion at all for the game in regards to that obsession? His responses to her feelings didn't even show that he feels the same for her OR that he had even comprehended the idea of loving her, much less the idea of having had an "obsession for her love" as a child. Where'd that obsession go? Did it just suddenly disappear into thin air? Has it just suddenly become unimportant? :wacko:

The story had focused on Cloud trying to understand himself in regards to his problems during his childhood; specifically being that he had wanted to be accepted, noticed, and as strong as the mighty Sephiroth. I saw that he had come to terms with all these during the lifestream sequence...but what about the obsession for Tifa's love? That didn't even get touched on...because JUST MAYBE it doesn't exist!!!!!! :mad:

Really...I don't know why I'm even bothering with trying to figure how Clotis had viewed the storyline. *head hurts...!*

I agree. The Cloti's try to make the Lifestream Event into a sequence where Cloud loses the Zack persona and remembers his love for Tifa. But there's several problems with that theory.

In the first place, if Cloud was Zack before the Lifestream Event, then Tifa fell in love with the Zack in Cloud. Tifa said that she loved Cloud in the Mideel Hospital before the Lifestream Event when he was still Zack, according to their theory. Since Cloud and Tifa didn't know one another well as children, Cloud and Tifa were just getting to know one another at the beginning of the game - when Cloud was still Zack, according to their theory.

In the second place, if Cloud was Zack before the Lifestream Event, then why didn't we see a figure of Zack during the Lifestream Event? Remember the three figures of Cloud sitting in the middle of the platform during the Lifestream Event? Why wasn't the figure seated near the gates of Nibelheim Zack, if Cloud thought he was Zack?

In the third place, if the Lifestream Event was about Cloud remembering his love for Tifa, then why are the memories revealed by Cloud during the Lifestream Event about Tifa's fall from the bridge and Cloud's rejection by the other children in Nibelheim? Wouldn't the memories revealed by Cloud be about his obsession for Tifa and his pining for Tifa as a child if that was the main focus of the Lifestream Event?

In the fourth place, Young Cloud tells Tifa that he wants to show her an "important memory". The important memory is her fall from the bridge. So any reference to "tender memories" and "secret wishes" are in reference to Cloud's important memory of her fall from the bridge, not a memory of an obsession with her.

In the fifth place, the bit about becoming the "real Cloud" during the Lifestream Event is actually in reference to something said by Sephiroth before the Reunion. Sephiroth told Cloud, "I want to take you back to your real self." "The one who gave me the Black Materia that day..." Sephiroth tried to convince Cloud that his "real self" was a failed experiment of Hojo's and that Cloud had never been born in Nibelheim. That's the "real Cloud" discovered during the Lifestream Event. The "real Cloud" wasn't a failed experiment of Hojo's - the "real Cloud" was born and raised in Nibelheim. It had nothing to do with Cloud believing he was Zack.

In the sixth place, Cloud remembered the childhood promise when reminded by tifa right at the beginning of the game at seventh heaven. Zack wouldn't have remembered any of that.

Hey hold up! Did anybody look into the original Japanese version of the game to see if it's really specified that Cloud had a crush on Tifa or not or just plain admiration whatsoever? Because I strongly believe that the American translators seemed to have a bias on Cloti. An example would be the manual for the PC version. <_<

What was in the PC manual, Tifa? :unsure:


Hmmm... I've begun to think whether or not Cloud really had a crush on Tifa. It's confusing me sometimes, but I'm understanding a little.


With Cloud's "obsession," I agree with Hades'. His so-called obsession had just disappeared into thin-air, and was only touched upon discreetly - and now, Aly is even trying to prove it didn't exist at all.

Maybe Cloud's obsession wasn't about Tifa. His real obsession was to be known, respected, which is why he went to SOLDIER. With the "tender memory," it pertains to Cloud watching Tifa fall and turn comatose. The occupants of Nibelheim had begun to disrespect and ignore Cloud even more.

Now I want to ask: Was Tifa just a tool to help Cloud be known or respected?

As far as I know, it was never specified in the Japanese game that he had a crush on her. Then again, it was never specified in the NA game that he had a crush on her, either. It's all interpretation. I've been trying to look at the evidence in this thread again, because I'm not convinced that he did.

What's in the PC manual that makes you say that? :unsure:

That's the way I see it, too.

Interesting question. :rolleyes: My initial reaction would be that Cloud wasn't using her... she was simply part of the issue. She was a member of the group of friends he wanted to be known by, and his respect in town was damaged by letting her fall at the bridge.

I don't believe so. First of all, I don't see Cloud as someone who would use others for his own personal gains. Secondly, he had wanted to belong and to be accepted, hence, I'm sure he had wanted true friends. Unless you felt someone was truly your friend, I don't think you would feel that you've been accepted or that you truly belong and are a part of them. Know what I mean? True friends = acceptance...and that's what Cloud had wanted. I'm pretty sure his intentions had been honest, and that he had really wanted to be her friend.

Buhon had some interesting thoughts about Cloud's "crush" on Tifa. He posted them in this thread: By Sephiroth's Hand. I'm copying them over here, because I think his thoughts on role-reversal are interesting:

I think the point of disagreement is what this "crush" actually meant to Cloud. What I contest is that he was actually interested in Tifa romantically as a child. In the first place, feelings of romantic love cannot be validated by a child. In the second place, Cloud seems far more interested in acceptance than in an actual romantic relationship.

Your point about role-reversal is interesting, although you have to consider that what Cloud may have felt for Tifa as a child and what Tifa feels for Cloud now are quite different. I agree with what you said about the Lifestream Event, though. The scene wasn't intended to confirm their mutual feelings for one another, but to resolve a past misunderstanding as well as to confirm that Cloud had been born in Nibelheim rather than in Hojo's lab.

My response to Anastar's response to my response... ahem

I certainly agree with your statement that a mature concept of romance isn't conceivable in a child or even adolescent. So therefore Cloud's "crush" on Tifa would have been your typical childhood/teenage "puppy love" type feeling. And, of course, those sort of childhood crushes are as much about things like wanting to be accepted by others, and being "popular," and other such concerns as they are about "attraction" (notice I didn't say "love"). Undoubtedly Cloud's "crush" on Tifa was as much about his desire to be accepted by others, being a lonely boy without friends, as it was any sense of attraction he had to a prepubescent/early pubescent Tifa. This leads into your second quote:

There is no doubt that Tifa's feeling for Cloud were different from Cloud's feelings for Tifa - Tifa was more or less an adult when she "discovered" her feelings for Cloud, whereas Cloud was but a boy when he had "feelings" for Tifa. Thus, though Tifa may have grown to "love" Cloud, Cloud had a "crush" on Tifa (assuming, of course, he had feeling for her, that is). It's "mature love" vs. "puppy love" so to speak. As for the Lifestream, I think the fact that Cloud had a childhood "crush" on Tifa was part of the many things that were involved with reconstructing Cloud's younger years (along, of course, with his sense of isolation from others, his guilt over Tifa getting hurt, etc.).

Overall, the point I'm making is that it is unnecessary to completely discount the idea that Cloud may have had a boyhood crush on Tifa, or that that crush even may have had a part to play/been hinted at during the Lifestream even or at other parts of the game. The fact is, it does nothing (NOTHING) to confirm whether or not Cloud has romantic feelings for Tifa as an adult. If they were discussing Cloud's attraction to Tifa as a child (which I do believe they were, to a degree) it has no immediate bearing on whether they are (or should) be romantically involved as adults. I think it did a lot to establish Cloud and Tifa's history together, being from the same hometown and all, and perhaps even gave both of them a springboard for mutual affection (I said "affection" not "love") between each other as adults who rediscovered one another, but under no circumstances should it be interpreted as evidence that Cloud preferred Tifa over Aerith as a romantic interest as an adult. Sorry Cloti's - Cloud may have had a puppy-love childish crush on Tifa back in the day, but he has a definite kindered-spirit, "my-better-half", "my-soul-mate" romantic attraction to Aerith in his adult life. His affection for Aerith is the adult kind that poets often write about.

The other part of this question is that Cloud was eight years old when the bridge incident happened. Tifa says this after Cloud recalls Tifa falling at the bridge:

Tifa "So that was it......" "Sorry, Cloud." "If I had only remembered more clearly what had happened, I could have done something sooner......"
(The adult Cloud shakes his head.)
"It's not your fault, Tifa."
(She turns away.)
Tifa "But, I remember back when we were eight!"

That means that the bridge incident happened when they were eight years old. The Cloti's try to portray Cloud as following Tifa into the mountains to protect her. That's absurd if Cloud was only eight years old at the time. He was only going along for the adventure of it, not to protect her. Cloud and Tifa were estranged from that moment on.

(He walks after Tifa's father, leaving Cloud sitting on the ground. The dark Cloud speaks again.)

"Tifa was in a coma for seven days."
"We all thought she wouldn't make it."
"If only I could've saved her..."
"I was so angry... Angry at myself for my weakness."
"Ever since then, I felt Tifa blamed me..."
"I got out of control... I'd get into fights not even caring who it was."

That isn't a love-sick child. That's a child whose self-image has been shattered by being blamed for letting Tifa fall at the bridge. Cloud saying that he felt Tifa blamed him for her fall at the bridge also shows that they were estranged from one another. If they had been friends, Cloud wouldn't have felt that Tifa blamed him.

Buhon:

If I was sure Cloud DID have a crush on Tifa as a child, I'd agree completely with what you've stated. However, What Anastar is trying to say, I believe, is that she doesn't believe Cloud ever had a "crush", "puppy love", or any type of "romantic" feelings for Tifa...period. I happen to see things the way she does. First of all, like I've already mentioned, his responses to her during the Highwind scene are too strange for the speculation that he'd once had romantic feelings for her. His "..." responses, to me, seem like he may have even been a little puzzled over/unable to comprehend what Tifa was trying to tell him. Either that or he was "uncomfortable" with knowing her feelings. If he had even ONCE felt that way for her, himself, he shouldn't have been "puzzled" over her feelings of "love". Although an "adult" type of love and a "puppy love" differ in degrees, they ARE similar...both being "romantic" in nature. Why did Cloud appear "puzzled" over the idea of a romantic feeling?

Secondly, there really isn't even anything to say that he "may" have had a crush on her. All the flashbacks that he has of his childhood deal with him being "alone" while watching the other children hang with each other, and his pain of not having been able to join them. For example, let's say if Square had portrayed him wondering to himself as a child whether Tifa had a boyfriend or not, or if he had been portrayed to have been "jealous" that some boy might have been Tifa's boyfriend, THEN, it'd be obvious that he probably did have a crush on her. Again, nothing even "hints" the sole possibility of him having had a crush on her.

Thirdly, IF he had indeed had a crush on Tifa, where'd that crush go? I mean, the game didn't even touch on what had happend to that feeling. Seemed to me like if he did have that feeling, it had just all of a sudden disappeared into thin air. The lifestream sequence sure didn't' touch on it. If if did, would you say that DURING that scene, he'd come to terms that he NO LONGER has a "crush" on her then? I didn't see that either. If it never got touched on anywhere in the game, are we to just assume then that he STILL does have feelings for her then? I'm sure you don't agree with that though...so where'd his crush go????

Anastar:

Buhon:

Hehe...is there a bit of a mix up here? I think what Anastar had meant was that she believes Tifa's feelings for Cloud and Cloud's feelings for Tifa as a child are quite different in the aspect that one was romantic in nature while the other wasn't, not that she was trying to argue that there's a difference between an adult love an a puppy love.

I see things similar with Anastar because I agree that Cloud did NOT appear the "love-sick" child that some make him to be. He appeared LONELY and TROUBLED. He had wanted the others to notice him. Tifa was the one he wanted most to notice him because everyone else (adults and children alike) loved/liked her. Gaining her friendship would have made everyone else considerably easier to be friends with.

Sorry if I'd been a bit confusing. This whole issue of whether Cloud had had romantic feelings for Tifa as child or not is rather a "painful" one to discuss. I always end up with somewhat of a headache afterwards... :)

Buhon:

I agree completely here. Even if Square ever does come out to say and prove that he did indeed have a crush on her as a child, you'd still be completely right. Shame on those Clotis... :P

Cloud's response of "..........." when Tifa says, "Words aren't the only thing that tell what you're thinking" strike me the same way. Cloud's response implies hesitation, uncertainty, or puzzlement. IF Cloud had similar feelings, we should have seen Cloud approach Tifa, take her in his arms, kiss her, or something to indicate that he felt that way. All we saw is Cloud standing there saying, "..........."

Again, I agree. Cloud talks about an important memory that he wants to reveal to Tifa. It turns out to be her fall at the bridge. IF Cloud used to have a crush on Tifa that was never reciprocated, wouldn't the important memory be about Cloud's wish to be with Tifa?

However, there are things in the story that people take to be indications of his past crush on Tifa. First is Cloud's statement about, "......I was devastated. ......I wanted to be noticed." Second is the bit about Cloud looking up at Tifa's window (although I can't find it in the script). Third is Cloud's statement about "......a sealed up secret...... wish......" "Tender memories...... no one can ever know........." If you look at the script carefully, however, the devastation, secret wish, and tender memories really seem to be about Tifa's fall at the bridge rather than about a crush that was never reciprocated.

Another good point. :rolleyes:

In response to Anastar and Hades' {angelic} daughter:

Well, I'm not necessarily committed to the idea of Cloud having some sort of "crush" Tifa, so I'm not gonna argue too much about it, LOL. My overall point is that it does absolutely no harm whatsoever to the Clorith perspective if it is ever established that Cloud may have had some sort of crush on Tifa as a kid. Perhaps I am being a devil's advocate more than anything else.

Nah, no mix-up. I understood what Anastar was trying to say, but my point was even the point of "adult love" vs. "puppy love" alone that supports her point quite well.

I never wanted to imply that Cloud had any strong sort of feelings for Tifa as a child. I thought of it as a simple little crush, nothing more intense than that. As far as what happened to the crush and why it wasn't emphasized more in such scenes as the Lifestream - I'd say simply because it wasn't majorly important to the scene, or the storyline in general. Also, what happens to all childhood crushes? They just fizzle out. Cloud got older, he changed. No more specific explanation is necessary. Thinking the girl next door is kinda cute when you're 8 doesn't automatically mean you'll be "so in love with them" the next time you run into them as an adult (Cloti's take notes!!).

I know that the argument has been made that Cloud's desire to get to know Tifa was due to the fact she was popular and therefore a good way to get friends, but it seems like there could have been other ways for Cloud to find acceptance other than through Tifa. So, that alone doesn't fully explain his fixation with her (and seriously, isn't a dorky kid having a crush on popular one, stemming as much from a desire to be popular themselves as much as any real interest in that person per se, a commonly recurring theme in other media?) Also, if he didn't have a particular interest in Tifa, why invite her out to the well, alone, before he left to join SOLDIER to specifically tell her he was leaving and boast about becoming another "great Sephiroth"? Cloud himself may have not been fully aware that he actually had a crush on Tifa himself (seems quite like his character).

Anyway, if (and that's an IF) Square meant to suggest that Cloud may have some sort of crush on Tifa when they were kids, it adds an interesting twist to the storyline in regards to the "role-reversal" thing I mentioned before: as a kid, Cloud being interested in Tifa but Tifa hardly noticing him, but as an adult, Tifa discovering feelings for him but Cloud being unintested and distracted by guilt/confusion/Ms. Green-eyed You Know Who.

Also, since the whole "childhood crush" thing seems to be a major Cloti-fixation, I feel like I can embrace it and still be a Clorith and thus weaken their argument or sense that Clorith's are "threatened" by this idea. I embrace it, see it as an interesting subtlety to an already engaging and subtle story line, and note that the state of the relationship between two people as children has no immediate bearing on the state of their relationship as an adult (how Cloud feels as a kid does not mean he has to feel the same way as an adult, and vice versa - the same with Tifa).

Hope that clears things up.

I don't see the idea of a "crush" on Tifa as *threatening* the Clorith perspective, either. I'm just questioning the idea that Cloud ever had a crush on Tifa to begin with. Does the evidence of Cloud's "crush" on Tifa as a child stand up to scrutiny? It seems to me that any of the evidence of Cloud's "crush" on Tifa can easily be explained as something else. Second, why wasn't Cloud's "crush" on Tifa explored more through his memories as a child during the Lifestream event if it did in fact exist? IF Square wanted to show that Cloud "loved" Tifa as a child and continues to love her now, why wasn't that elaborated on during the Lifestream event?

As I saw it...he was "alone"...no friends, nodda. Just out of curiosity, because I feel like I'm missing points I should know about, but what "other" ways could he have gained people's acceptance with? Besides, I'm not exactly saying that Tifa was the ONLY way for Cloud to have gained what he wanted. Gaining her friendship though would have been the easiest and best way, considering her popularity, that's all. Besides, anyone would have wanted to be her friend...especially little lonely Cloud. Again, he didn't strike me as being "love-sick". That's where my curiosity comes in. What EXACTLY says that he was "love-sick"?

Um...from what I'm aware of, Cloud never did gain the acceptance he'd wanted. In other words...he never became friends with anyone, hence, why would he invite anyone else other than Tifa to the well? Maybe it's just me, but I feel that her invitation to the well had made perfect sense since I agree that he'd wanted her to notice him. He WAS in fact, interested in her. I just don't feel that it's very clear that he'd wanted her to notice him BECAUSE of "romantic" feelings. His feelings for her can just as much be associated with "friendship". Again, I feel that it's one of those things, Square never made completely clear, and am just amazed at how people have automatically claimed it as a "crush".

I agree though that the idea isn't a threat, but I'm simply curious because I, myself, didn't get the feeling that that childhood crush had even existed. For us (Clerises), it's simple to say that his crush had probably just "sizzled out" over the long years as many crushes tend to do, but I've heard many Clotis claim otherwise. From their perspective, Cloud had been "obsessed" with her. So if he had been "so" obsessed with her, it couldn't have just disappeared. At AC.net, other Clotis (Soul_Singer, to be specific) have claimed that Cloud had had a crush on Tifa as a child (no doubt about it's existance), and since it never got touched on anywhere in the game, meaning that Cloud wasn't shown to have gotten "over" that crush, it would indeed still exist. It's why THEY believe Cloud to still have feelings for Tifa.

I find it quite interesting, and many other Clerises and myself have brought up the point that regardless of what they think, it's obvious that Cloud doesn't have feelings for her ANYMORE simply because of his responses during the Highwind scene. To counter that, they claim that the Highwind scene is completely our own interpretation, that they had interpreted it "differently". They haven't done this yet, but I have a feeling they're going to ask us to bring up the exact scene in the game where it's shown that Cloud's gotten over his "obsessive crush".

What do you guys think?

Good points, Angelic. :rolleyes:

Well, to see him get over his obsessive crush, we'd have to see that the obsessive crush existed in the first place. Since we never saw that it existed in the first place, we can't see him get over something that was never there. :lol:

more replies to Anastar and Hades:

LOL... I'm afraid I'd better stop before I get banned from the forum... >_<


I think between myself and the two of you, we're opperating under different assumptions of what I mean by "crush." Or different degrees of intenstity, at least. Under no circumstances do I consider Cloud to have been "love sick" or anything of the sort. Think much smaller - I'm talking about a little thing that may or may not be an insignificant detail of the backstory. I NEVER got any impression that he had any strong feelings toward Tifa in any way, shape, or form, and anyone who argues as such does so at their own risk. So, think "small crush". Does that make sense? ...I hope??

And no doubt, there is no conclusive proof in the game for this anywhere. But there is nothing that disproves it, and there are subtle (very subtle) hints that could reasonably be interpreted to suggest this (again - small crush, kids, small crush... no earth-shattering, love-sick enrapturement here, folks!). There is plenty that disproves that he had been in love with Tifa, no doubt. I don't think it was ever serious on Cloud's part - just an adolscent thing.

As far as "other" ways for Cloud to have found acceptance as a child - there were other children in town, were there not? I do know that the game makes indirect references to other kids at some points. So, Tifa wasn't necessarily his only option for acceptance. In fact, as the "popular girl" in town, she'd be particularly inaccessible to a loner like Cloud, don't you think. So, why fixate on her as a way to become "accepted"... wouldn't having some little kid crush be an extra motivating factor?

And yes, as you say, Cloud never did become accepted by anyone... including Tifa. Were they ever close at all during their childhood or teenage years? From what I remember, not at all. So, why invite Tifa out to the well, as opposed to anyone else. Of course, his guilt over her falling off the bridge, and his desire to be tough is undoubtedly the MAIN motivational factor here. But it seems to me that, considering Cloud's character, if that were the only motivating factor, he wouldn't go through the trouble of arranging such a meeting. It seems like he'd just sorta make a generic announcement then leave.

As for why Square isn't emphasizing this potential "crush"? Because it's not important. I never argued it was. The perspectives established on this forum are undoubtedly the main motivational factors and most involved with the storyline. The question of Cloud's "crush" seems to be something you can pick up on, or not, but it doesn't change, add, or take anything away from the storyline. Just adds an interesting dimension, from where I stand.

Anyway, I just couldn't help but detect a twinge of "crushiness" behind Cloud's motivation behind his interactions with Tifa during the early years. Again, I'm not committed to it either way, I just felt that it was an interesting spin.

Please don't kill me, fellow Cloriths... lol