This is a book containing interviews with different members of the team which created Final Fantasy VII. The Cloti's are trying to claim that there's many things in the book which endorse CloudxTifa. I'm bringing this up since Cloti's are starting to use the book in different Love Triangle debates. Please bring any of their quotes here that you're uncertain about, and we'll try to get your questions answered. The book is in Japanese, which makes it more difficult to deal with. Even if I had the book, there's no way I could read it! :lol:

Here's a few examples of what the Cloti's are claiming, with excerpts from the book:

Actually here are some parts from Cloud and Aeris' monologues:
Cloud:(before the big battle)

-Everyone left to find what they're fighting for.
To that, Tifa stayed. I don't have to look for what I'm fighting for, Tifa taught me that----
Everyone came back. Barret too, Cid too, Red13 too. Midgar's (I forget the job title) Cait sith too. I was surprised Vincent came, he didn't seem to care of things. At last was Yuffie.

NOTE: I'm still trying to establish where these monologues came from, since it's not part of the dialogue in the game.

The Cloti's are trying to say this line indicates that Cloud was fighting for Tifa in the final battle. If you look closely, it means no such thing. All Cloud says is that Tifa taught him what he was fighting for. Why does that mean that he's fighting for her? Besides, Cloud specifically says in the game that he's fighting for a personal memory. That personal memory is definitely not Tifa, because she's standing right there on the bridge of the Highwind as he says it. She's not a memory.

Another example:
Aeris (at Gongaga)

"maybe, just maybe Cloud could be Zacks and everything would be as it was"

"Turns out, it was my bad."
"But, Cloud is Cloud."
"But Cloud, is pretty slow."

It ends with her thinking that Cloud has taken very much to Zacks' ways but is still a dull/slow guy.

In the first place, the main translator at AdventChildren.net (Vilaeth, who is currently reading the book) says that "slow" would be a better translation than "dull" for Aerith's description of Cloud. It also seems that the Cloti's left out part of the translation. I'll try to get that clarified. Here's what Vilaeth said in one post about this:

I don't see some of those things from Aerith's entry in Gongaga. I've just read through it right now, and didn't really see anything about Aerith hoping Cloud would be like Zacks and everything being like before (unless that comes from another part? I only really read through the first few, flicked to the end, read some bits and pieces in the middle). But even so, she ends it (right before "but Cloud's pretty slow...") by saying that she likes Cloud more than Zacks now anyway.

At any rate, so what if Aerith said Cloud was slow? I coulda told you that, and I adore Cloud! :lol: Cloud IS dull and slow in comparison to Zack, and I think that's what Aerith is referring to.

What I find very interesting about Aerith's words is that she clearly distinguishes between Cloud and Zack in that passage. This would mean that Aerith did not fall in love with Cloud because of Zack. She also says, "maybe, just maybe Cloud could be Zacks". Since Aerith says that Cloud could become Zack, doesn't that mean that Cloud is NOT Zack? Aerith even goes on to say that "Cloud is Cloud" Since this is in Gongaga, I think it clearly shows that Aerith knew Cloud wasn't Zack, and that Aerith didn't fall in love with Cloud because she thought he was Zack.

The problem with both of those quotes is that they are just bits and pieces (I don't really see what the part about all the main party coming back together has to do is Cloud's relationship with Tifa or Aerith, though), mainly missing the parts showing either Aerith's feeling for Cloud or Cloud's mentioning of Aerith.

The entry for Gongaga, she does say that she thought Cloud was similar to Zacks. But later she says that Cloud's Cloud, and she likes him more than Zacks now. So even if she did say she wanted Cloud to be like Zacks and having everything like before, she moves past it by saying she like Cloud now.

Cloud entry before the Northern Crater, Cloud didn't say Tifa taught him that he didn't need to look for his reason to fight. He mentions a sentence or so before his reasons (IIRC roughly "to settle my past, to be myself, and above all else-- to unfreeze her smile"). He said afterwards that Tifa stayed for him. What Tifa taught him was that he wasn't fighting alone. That extract also left out the mentions to Aerith.

But it's not like it's filled with Cloud saying he perfers either girl over the other, anyway.

Cloti people will really do anything and become blinded by the truth just to...... *explodes* :angry:

Wilhelm... have you read the book? :blink: You could be a big help to us if you have! :D

I'm trying to understand where these monologues that weren't in the game are coming from, and whether they actually have any relevance since they weren't in the game. Who gave these monologues to the author of the book, and why? Were these part of the original storyboards that were later revised or something?

If these monologues were part of storyboards that were revised before the release of the game, then doesn't that mean the storyboards were revised because the creators didn't like them?

Are you saying that they left a line out of the translation? I don't see Aerith's line saying that she likes Cloud more than Zack now in their translation.

It sounds like you're saying that they mistranslated or left out part of the monologue, because I see nothing in their translation about "above all else-- to unfreeze her smile".

I *think* what they're trying to claim is this monologue shows that Cloud was fighting for Tifa as he went into the final battle.

According to the intro to the section, they are there in the hope that they'll help expand your imagination in regards to the scenario. The writer Benny Matsuyama was in charge of them, and the whole book was supervised and materials for it given by Square. I don't think they'd put them in if they were parts of the story they didn't like or weren't satisfied with.

That quote from the first post was only a little bit of it, missing that line and some more.

Like the first one, it is only part of the whole, and the part about Tifa is slightly off. Towards the end, he says he's going to release Aerith's wish (like the line he said on the Highwind). Not that he says he's off to fight for love or anything, though.

Hmmmm, this's very interesting. Apparently the CloTi's think that we Cleris fans can't find Japanese speaking people, or can't seem to speak it ourselves, because they seem to be constantly lying about stuff like this.

Hmmm... okay. So the basic problem is that they're leaving parts out of the translation?

Does anyone know of any other quotes they are using to claim that this book endorses CloudxTifa? I only know of one other quote, that being the one by Nomura about his phone call to Kitase one night suggesting that they kill off Aerith. The quote goes like this:

“Actually, we only had Aerith (the original Japanese name for Aeris) at the beginning, and Tifa did not exist. But on a Sunday evening, I phoned the director Mr. Kitase and suggested 'Let's kill Aerith and put in Tifa' (laughs). So now we have two heroines, and we have an event where one of them dies."

I've had more than one Cloti argue with me that Nomura says in this statement that he killed Aerith off to replace her with Tifa. There are even websites that claim this. Here's from an article with interview excerpts from Nomura at: http://flaregamer.com/b2article.php?p=81&more=1

It was also Nomura's idea for Aerith to die and Tifa to become the main heroine of FF7. In the beginning there was Aerith and no Tifa. Then one Sunday night, during a phonecall to Yoshinori Kitase (Director), he said "Let's kill Aerith and bring out Tifa". They never had a type of story where there were two heroines and one dies.

I had one Cloti throw this at me claiming it proved that Nomura wanted Tifa to become the main heroine of the story rather than Aerith. However, Nomura never actually said the line that I bolded. The line bolded in the quote was merely an assumption made by the author of the article... Nomura never said it.

Yeah, it seems mostly so they can say that Aerith only liked Cloud because of Zacks and neglecting the part saying that she like Cloud more now and cancelling out the Zacks/Cloud arguement.

wilhelm! Is that wilhelm from Xenosaga? ...hehe sorry, off topic.

Hey, that makes much more sense. Cloud is simply implying that Tifa, by staying on with him to fight, taught him never to give up nd that he won't be alone in his fight!

About the killing off Aerith thingy, I thought I read it somewhere before that they decided to kill off Aerith becos one of them lost someone dear to him (mother?) So, he decided to change the main theme from love to life. :blink: My memory is slightly fuzzy though... :ph43r:

wilhelm, would you be able to give a correct translation of those passages with the lines that were left out, please? I could publish them on my site, if that's okay with you. I like to provide information like this to CloudxAerith people on my site.

I'm going to check for other claims involving this book. Thanks so much for your help, wilhelm! :)

Yes, Sakaguchi's mother died while they were making FFVII. He's the one who said that.

Hurray Wilheilm! Once again, CloTi "evidence" is smashed by the Cleris fans!

YAY!!! Anastar is writing another essay! :D

Yes, CloTis who speak Japanese have posted pages that supposedly negated something I had said and the entire page was in Japanese. They didn't think I would seek someone out who COULD speak Japanese. It turned out they were lying through their teeth. :rolleyes:

Before AC.net went down, Clorith told me that there was a site translating FFVII Dismantled, and that's where the Cloti's were taking these monologues from. She said that the translations looked pretty one-sided. I asked her to let me know which site, although I think I already know which one it is.

Wilhelm... would you help us examine their evidence, please?

I knew we hadn't heard the last of it... :(

The site's called LOVELESS, you can probably find it if you search for "LOVELESS, Tifa" in a search engine. That's where all this evidence came from. She posted parts of them, which might explain why Aerith's monologue was missing that line. Although it doesn't explain twisting around Cloud's.

It was actually already brought it up that I didn't agree with the translations in a forum where the person translating them is a member, I replied and explained what I meant. But only replies I got basically amounted to her skipping past my replies and explainations so she could cackle on about how I using Babelfish or something and getting no really answers because she apparently didn't have to give them. I just stopped bothering at that point.

I wouldn't say I was a fan of either, really. And I'm getting tired of the whole fandom if I'm going to carry on getting labels put on me just because I say disagree with something I think looks wrong.

Yeah, it is :lol: He's one of my favourite characters (and Kevin isn't a very exciting name anyway :P).

Ohhhh, THAT's what they were talking about when they were talking about LOVELESS. Sorry, wilhelm... that's what I get for ignoring the LT debate for so long. A severe case of carpal tunnel syndrome kept me away from the debates. I could hardly be on the computer at all for about a month, so I lost track of what was going on.

Ahhh, okay. *sigh* I didn't realize all that had happened. You certainly don't deserve that. I'll try to look at what's already been said then so you don't have to repeat yourself, and let you know if I have any more questions. Thank you very much, wilhelm. :)

In case anyone else would like to look at Loveless, it's here: Loveless
So far, the only thing I've found about Dismantled is the old Cloti argument that Nomura wanted to kill off Aerith because he wanted Tifa to be the main heroine of the story, which Nomura never said. I only started looking, though.

Thanks Anastar.

What i feel is, since he mentioned that the main theme is changed from love to life, thus killing off Aerith, this naturally means, originally love = Aerith!!! ^_^ It's only because they want to change it to a more tragic theme, about life and death, that is when Tifa is included, if not there will be NO female in the game (Yuffie is optional rite? :P And she not exactly your typical female.. heehee)

Wilhelm(kevin is good), I love Xenosaga!! I can't wait for the english version of Xenosaga2 to be released! My fav character is Rubedo though :wub: (Although he is like much younger than me in terms of physical age. lol!)

Oops, sorry! I'd assumed you were. Well, thanks for being a neutral bringer of justice! And yeah, you don't deserve to be put through all this again.

So many people love twisting translations into something they want. It's horrible <_<

And what kind of book is this? I collect stuff like that. I have the Official Final Fantasy VII Establishment File and things like that. This book interests me. :lol:

I think Aly should write a new essay regarding Dismantled and all of the "CloTi evidence" in it. :lol: Here is some stuff from Loveless that is just utterly wrong...

Sorry, but Rinoa may have LOOKED more like Tifa, but her character was ALL AERITH. Like Aerith, Rinoa was someone of great importance (Aerith was the last of the Cetra, and the rightful HEIR to the planet; Rinoa was the daughter of a noted General, the leader of a rebel group, who was often called "PRINCESS") and she was also a WHITE MAGE. Her physical attacks were not up to par with Quistis, who was the most physically strong female in the game (like Tifa). Rinoa also finds herself in a situation that requires her to sacrifice herself for the good of the others (being put into the Sorceress Memorial), just like Aerith. Also, just like Aerith, Rinoa is very extroverted, flirty, and isn't afraid to tell anyone how she feels. So HOW can Rinoa=Tifa? :rolleyes: They are NOTHING alike! :lol:

And Aerith doesn't have long hair??? :rolleyes: Okay, who had the largest breasts in the recent FF games? Tifa and Lulu. Was Lulu the hero's love interest? NO. And neither was Tifa. Women like that, I am sorry to say, are fanservice, eye-candy, nothing more. The heroines of the games, the ones who are the love interest of the main hero never have enormous jugs. :rolleyes: Did Rinoa? No. Did Garnet? No. Did Yuna? No. So, just because a character is thrown in with big boobs, the way Nomura seems to like them, does not mean they are automatically the main character. That is an ABSURD statement! :lol:

And WHEN, exactly, did Nomura say any of this? This person is hilarious! They are putting words directly into Nomura's mouth! :lol: Nomura never said ANYTHING of the sort. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I guess that is why he put her into FFT and KH with Cloud searching for her... *Snort* :lol: LOL! Sorry, hon, but Nomura is OBVIOUSLY a ClAeris! :rolleyes:

*falls over laughing* Good GRIEF! Where do you FIND this stuff!?!?*Laughs harder* Oh my goodness....Tifa has big boobs! Cloud MUST love her! She's got long hair! Cloud MUST love her!
Silly fan didn't even know that Rinoa was the first FF8 character designed. At least, I'm pretty durn sure, that's what Rinoa shrines say.
And I'm with you Goddess! She SHOULD write up a nice big essay and we'll spread it about the 'net!

Good reply, FF_Goddess!

I'm having trouble locating anything about Dismantled at AC.net. I assumed the discussions about it were taking place in the LT debate, but I searched through the whole thing and find nothing about it. In which thread were these discussions taking place?

You mean where the CloTis were using Dismantled as evidence? It was at the SSF forum and I don't know if the topic is still even up anymore. I had NO idea what they were talking about then. Now that I know the truth, it is pretty funny that they took so much stock in something that was completely untrue. LOL! :lol:

Ohhhh.... I thought the Cloti's at AC.net were using it, because Vilaeth said they were ignoring his explanations. :blink: Also, OWD came into Devotion and started "explaining" the Dismantled evidence to us. It was all as SSF, eh?

Supposedly, it all came from Loveless... but I couldn't find it there, either. The only thing I could find from Dismantled there was that silly bit about Nomura killing Aerith off to replace her wth Tifa... and we all know that Nomura never said any such thing.

;) he did say something to that degree, actually.
"Let's kill of Aeris and bring in Tifa."
Originally, Aeris lived and Tifa was nonexistant. Tifa was added to the plot at the last minute I believe, after Nomura (this last part is a little iffy, but I can believe it) dreamed of a woman like Tifa and called his partners the next day. I dunno if this is the same thing they were talking about, but I know he did actually say that =/

Basically, Tifa was a product of a very horny man's wet dream, which is somewhat obvious when you look at her. Giant breasts with that skimpy top and a MINI skirt for a martial artist. That design makes no sense whatsoever.

When did this Dismantled thing come out anyway? The CloTi's seem to have gone nuts with all this new 'evidence' it's providing.

This is Nomura's quote from Dismantled:

“Actually, we only had Aerith at the beginning, and Tifa did not exist. But on a Sunday evening, I phoned the director Mr. Kitase and suggested 'Let's kill Aerith and put in Tifa' (laughs). So now we have two heroines, and we have an event where one of them dies."

He says nothing about Tifa replacing Aerith, he says nothing about Tifa becoming the main heroine of the story, and he says nothing about being unhappy with Aerith's character design. The Cloti's read this and then make a huge assumption about why he wanted to kill Aerith... but Nomura never said why he wanted to do it.

I guess they probably were discussing it at AdventChildren.net, too. I wasn't in the LT debate there, since I had just finished with that joke of a LT debate at SSF (which was basically just a bunch of CloTis insulting me and presenting complete b.s. for evidence). :rolleyes:

Question!!!!... or maybe I missed it somewhere here because my brain really got clouded when I read the nasty things about Cloti people using that book (if ever that is a book):

Is this an official publication from Square or it's from an outside company?

A strategy guide, basically. Most of the book is about the game rather than the story. I haven't read the Estabishment File (I almost bought it years ago, but didn't in the end), but by the name it sounds like a book with design images and such? There's not much of those in the Dismantled book. It's mainly lists of weapons/items/enemies/etc and how to get things and such.

While Square did supervise and supply materials for the book, I don't think they were able to publish things themselves at the time the book was first released (or didn't want to set up a publishing department, I don't know). So this book was published by Enterbrain, the publishers of the various Famitsu magazines. Most of the Kaitai Shinsho series were published by them, except the ones for Capcom games like Onimusha which were published by Capcom themselves.

Later on Square helped found Digicube and they took over the publishing for their books and CDs, and now Digicube is bankcrupt and Square have merged with Enix (who were primarily a publisher of third-part produced games and already published magazines, books and comics) they publish their own books. magazines, etc.

And there you go, a history of Square-Enix lesson no one really needed. :lol:

It was another other forum (Overdose Delusion, the one Unforgiving Sin set up after getting de-admin'd at AC.net). I don't think you'd be able to see it now unless you're a member, though.

For Aerith's, it doesn't really need anything changing, just lines adding since it wasn't complete. The main one being the "I like Cloud a lot more than Zacks now" line.

Cloud's monologue could have just been worded better. "I'm not alone in my fight, that's what Tifa taught me..." or something along those lines.

I thought it was great! :lol: Thanks for the info, wilhelm. That makes things a lot clearer. :rolleyes:

Were you in on that debate? If so, I'd love to know what other passages they were using because I'm sure this same argument will come up again in other debates. We like to be prepared! :lol:

Thank you very much, wilhelm. That's very helpful, and we appreciate it. :rolleyes:

Aly, I still think you'n Wilheilm should get together and write a quick essay on the correct translation of FFVII Dismantled.

Well, only certain parts are in dispute, and I have no idea which passages the Cloti's were using as "evidence". It'd be hard to write an essay about just the one passage. If we can find out what other passages the Cloti's were trying to use, and if wilhelm would tell me what the mistakes are, I'll do an essay about it.

It wasn't actually a debate, it was just mentioned the Cloud/Tifa club there (it was pretty much by chance I saw it at all). The few parts already mentioned are the only parts I've seen finished, and even those were still in progress. But I don't really keep up much with it. Maybe when they've finished with it they'll be something more.

Ahhh, okay... well, if you see something more about it, please let us know! And thanks for helping us understand it. :rolleyes:

BTW, were there any parts of the book you thought were particularly interesting? I'd love to read it if only it were published in English. :)

I thought the Secret Techniques 77 and International changes parts were interesting, since I didn't know what the changes were made. The character parts (with things like their name origins, notes about their design and such), interviews and monologues as well.

Did any of those changes involve Aerith in some way? I'd be interested in hearing about any of the changes or secret techniques you'd like to tell us about. :rolleyes:

I've heard various explanations for Aerith's name. Is the variation of "I Earth" the correct one?

Why don't you just translate the whole book for us? :lol: j/k

I don't really remember anything being about her, but I can go check again to make sure.

Just "Earth" is the one given in the book, there's no "I" part to it.

Yup, they were talking about it at ACF. Some people had the nerve to post the exact same quote in Devotion twice. :rolleyes:

Thanks wilhelm!! Aly, go write something! :lol: At least on the accurate translations so we have a site to quote from! Bah, why did she have to call it "Loveless". Loveless was a Cleris play, dang it! :lol:

I know, that made me so angry!! I had some Cleris avvies that said "Loveless" on them, and I had to change the friggin message, because I didn't want any snide comments... The Loveless poster has an image that looks a little bit like Tifa, maybe that's where she got it from... Or maybe, deep *deep* down she knows Tifa is unloved... and subliminally named her crap-tastic (<<my new favorite word!) shrine after it... That's my theory anyway WHUAHAHA!!!

Craptastic? Did you get that from me? :lol:

Yeah, I don't see how anyone can think "Loveless" is about Tifa. I mean, it is all about someone returning to someone else. And what has Cloud been portrayed as for the past seven years? A sorrowful man looking for a way to return to Aerith. As usual, it is all about wishful thinking on the part of the CloTis... :rolleyes:

Yes, yes I did!! And now it is MINE!!! :P

CRAPTASTIC!!! CRAPTASTIC!!! WHUAHAHAHA!!!!

... and now that that's over with...

Yeah, the Clotis are all about wishful thinking... the only thinking they know...