This is a club dedicated to the Jenova Project side-story, and all that went on in Nibelheim and the Shinra Mansion, thirty years prior to the game. For fans of Jenova, Professor Gast, and of course the VincentxLucreciaxHojo triangle. :ph43r:



Personally, I can't get enough of this sublot. I'll read just about anything on it (except for terrible slashfics that somehow turn Lucrecia into the game's ultimate evil... <_< ). It's an aspect of the game that I find terribly fascinating, It's such an interesting story, and of course the characters are intruiging. Such an interesting past that Vincent has! And there's so much going on during that time, and we'll never fully know everything that was happening. It's a cross between a horror story spiralling into deeper insanity, and a twisted soap-opera! Love, darkness, betrayal, insanity, death, scientific experimentaion... And of course, it has a tragic end. It always struck me as a very eerie and disturbing story; and its consequences are incredible. And for those reasons and more, I find it very interesting to read, write and talk about, which is why I'm dedicating this club to the Jenova Project. :devil:

I encourage anyone with an interest to join! Let's discuss!

Note: The club's name is inspired by a fanart of Lucrecia, Vincent and Hojo of the same name by Seraphim Sephiroth, which you can find here.

Big News: ~Hopeful_Angel~ has been kind enough to design a club signature for us! Bow to her almighty graphics and her devotion to this group! Thank you so much, Hopeful! :huggle:

Members:
Hyper-Ballad
Cloud's Girl
Buhon
~Hopeful_Angel~
Materia Thief
Andina
shadowedpuppet
Iris
AerithResurrected
slowerthanaverage

Lucrecia and Vincent forever! Hojo is a manwhore!

I'll join. ^_^

LMAO, CG! Welcome to the club! :lol:

I'm something of a fan of Vincent/Lucrecia myself, but I don't despise Hojo. I'm actually quite a fan of his, as I've always found Hojo to be one of the most interesting, ambiguous, and complex characters in the game - I always got the impression that what we know about his thoughts and character during the game is just the tip of the iceberg. I mean, we'll never know if he ever genuinely cared for Lucrecia or if he only ever saw her as a walking, talking womb. Well, I disagree with the idea I see in quite a few 'fics that try to portray him as some sort of victim that snapped and was driven to insanity by the whole Lucrecia/Vincent thing, and I also disagree with 'fics that try to shift the blame or try to justify injustifiable actions. But at the same time, I have serious difficulties believing that Lucrecia would've chosen him over Vincent, trusted him, had his child, and allowed their child to become part of the Jenova Project if he was clearly a psychotic, sadistic maniac with no regard whatsoever for human life, you know?

So even though I do, to a degree, see him as the ultimate villain of FFVII because of everything he was responsible for, I don't think that he can be defined as just that: it's far too simple and black-and-white, and that kind of view doesn't really do justice to his character. I think it's easy for people to forget that during the game, Hojo is what he became, that he'd developed into the man he was over his entire life. Plus, I've always believed that nobody's born evil, that he was as human as any of us at some point...

Ah, life is sweet when you're a natural-born ranter like me. :P

Anyway, thanks for joining, CG! It's good to have you here, as always. :huggle:

aha! excellent... it's about time someone devoted some attention to this subplot! I'm quite fond of this "second triangle" and all associated parties involved. Though I too see Hojo as an ultimately evil character, I do believe there is a degree of depth to him that is barely explored in the game. As for Lucretia, I think we discussed her role back in the day: there is an old Roman myth about a woman named Lucretia, who was raped and who committed suicide in order to preserve her purity. The forum came to the conclusion that the Lucretia in the game had her innocence taken advantage of in the sense that she seemed to have been a young ideologue who was caught up in what she believed was the "science of improving the quality of life" that Shinra was reported to be providing, and therefor was seduced into falling in love and carrying the "son of Jenova" by her own naivite that Hojo capitalized on...


Anyway, sign me up!


Umm... how do you add a "sig"?

Ah, another enthusiast...welcome!

If you'd only like to have text as your signature just go to "My Controls" and on the bar to the left, click on "Edit Signature", and then include the text, and click on the "Update" button. If you'd like to include an image as a signature, Anastar provides detailed, step-by-step intructions here.

I hope this was helpful! :lol:

Thank you very much! I love this sublot, so I couldn't resist trying to draw in anyone else who might have an interest! ^_^

The goings-on of the Jenova Project and the "second triangle" are probably my favourite subplot of FFVII. I think I find it so fascinating because we know so little about what was really going on - after all, despite the fact that the events we see in Vincent's flashback sequence reveal quite a bit, the scenes we see could be interpreted in many different ways. And I share your fondness for "all associated parties involved": I think it's their ambiguity that makes them so interesting (we'll never know what Vincent was like prior to thirty years of suffering, Hojo is as enigmatic as always, and Lucrecia leaves a very strong impression for a character we know virtually nothing about), because it's so interesting to speculate over their characters and of course the intricacy and complexity of their relationships. I like to think of each of them playing a part in their own fates, too.

I mostly agree with your take on Hojo; he's twisted, ruthless, icy, insane, sadistic, and far more capable and dangerous than other character probably ever imagined, and if he ever had the ability to feel compassion for others, he's long lost it. But at the same time, there's a kind of humanity to his madness as well. By the time you confront him at the Mako Cannon, I had the impression of someone who's mind and sanity has completely rotted away over the years. And I think it's clear that there's much more to him than meets the eye. But his humaity justifies nothing; it just makes his actions slightly more terrifying. And it all adds up to why I find him such an interesting character...and I know that I completely underestimated him the first time I saw him in the game.

There's so much we can only speculate about, though...for example, if he never felt anything for Lucrecia at all, why shoot Vincent during a confrontation? And if there's logical explanation for killing him...why experiment on him instead? I always thought that there was something personal behind his actions towards Vincent; something that made him bitter and vicious enough to act so sadistically... There's also Sephiroth to consider - as the game progresses he becomes more and more consummed by thoughts of Sephiroth, but more with the pride of an artist for a creation that went beyond and re-defined his original expecations than that of a father for a son...

Anyway, I also love your ideas about Lucrecia...and the reference to Roman Mythology (are you citing the myth of Tarquin and Lucrece?)! I actually see her in a very similar light myself. I can easily see her as someone whose innocence and naivite are used as weapons against her. I always imagined her as being quite easily taken in by not only her own curiosity, dedication to science and trusting nature, but also the prospect of doing something for the sake of science, something that would do more than help her career, but improve the world as well. But at the same time, we need to keep in mind that she's an intelligent woman, and less likely to be anyone's dupe...I think she was also taken in by the possibilities participation in the Project would've opened for her, as well as the idea of being the vessel through which an ancient and perfect race is reborn. Though the game makes is clear that her child comes to mean far more to her.

I'm curious...you described Lucrecia as being "in love" with Hojo (though due to manipulation, deceit and false charm on Hojo's part than anything else); so what's your opinion on Lucrecia and Vincent's relationship? What do you believe she felt for him?

Thanks for sharing your ideas, Buhon! ^_^

And here's some quotes if anyone's in a mood for analysing:

^_^

Nobody else is paying attention to this club? For shame people! Such an intricate subplot too!

Gosh, such touch questions, Hyper. This story is an entire plotline in of itself! I got the impression that Lucrecia genuinely loved Vincent, but that she a) let her desire to use science to better the lives of other, and B) perhaps her feelings of sympathy towards Hojo, to force herself to make/allow herself to be manipulated into making the ultimate sacrifice. I think naivite on her part ultimately did her in. Whether or not Hojo was a sympathetic character, or an evil manipulator, in this instance I'm undecided. Hopefully Dirge of Cerberus will tackle these issues head on...

More on those other quotes later...

Oooh... I want to join! I agree Hyper, this is like a dark, twisted soap-opera spiralling into the depths of insanity and horror. However, I don't think of it as a subplot (to me, subplots are plots that are not necessary to the game), I think it has a very major role. But, I want to ask your definition of a subplot. ^_^

I have never heard of the myth of Tarquin and Lucrece, but could you tell me? I see no reason for Square not to put in mythology, mainly because some parts of the game contain it. Examples can be:

Nibelheim: Celtic (I think) dimension which is like a frozen Hell

Odin: Celtic (again, I think)

Leviathan: the large water snake that holds the world together by biting its tongue (Celtic, I think again)

Bahamut: hmmm... he's actually a fish that carries a bull holding the world on his back, but Square places him as a dragon. :blink:


Like Buhon, I hope that Dirge of Cerebus will clear some of this up. This is mostly based on Vincent and what he went through during the JENOVA project, right?

I've replied at last! Sorry for taking ages to do this! :rolleyes:

Hopeful:

Yes, Square put a lot of mythology and cultural references into all their games, and you've got some good observations. ^_^

The myth of Tarquin and Lucrece is explained by Buhon in an earlier post, I believe. It's a Roman myth - as I remember it, a man boasts a great deal about his wife, Lucrece's, great beauty, and an associate of his, Tarquin, is very impressed by his description and decides to seek her out and see if she lives up to the praise. As it turns out, Lucrece is in fact much more beautiful than her husband described and Tarquin feels great lust for her. He attempts to seduce her, but she refuses him, and he then rapes her. Lucrece is, naturally, destroyed by this. She undergoes much emotional torment of living with her "shame", and when she later learns that she's carrying her attacker's child, and kills herself to get rid of her shame and to preseve her purity. There's much more to the story when the truth comes out and all hell breaks loose and ends in war and death, but that's all of Lucrece's involvement in the story. Shakespeare adapted a lengthy poem based on the myth, which he titled The Rape of Lucrece, if you're interested.

What an interesting question! I suppose I would define a subplot as a plot in a story, but which isn't the central storyline. But I agree with you that this is a plot which is vital to further understanding of the story and characters and is centrally important to game. I suppose I called it a "subplot" because learning about this part of the story is optional - while Hojo's involvement is something that isn't optional, gaining Vincent and finding out the whole story is...so I guess that's what led me to call it a subplot. But I see where you're coming from! ^_^

Buhon:

About Lucrecia's feelings for Vincent, it's something I'm a little divided about. I believe she genuinely cared about Vincent, as they seem to have a close relationship: they talked together often, were close enough for Vincent to develop such a strong and passionate love for her (and possibly believe that she felt the same, and would accept him) and for him to feel it was well within his boundries to try and intervene with the Project by openly voicing his protests and making his reservations clear to Lucrecia. And from the fact that she calls out for both Sephiroth and Vincent at the crystal cave, I think he's still very much in her heart. There is a sense of connection and intimacy there, however sad and self-defeating. However, even though I think he was important to her (enough to make Hojo feel like shooting him and destroying him) and don't doubt the strength and sincerity of her feeling, I'm not sure if I can say that she truly loved him in a romantic sense. She seemed to reject him not only in the flashback sequence (her actions such as pulling her hands away, shaking her head and running away suggest to me that though she cared about him, it wasn't in a romantic way) but also in the Crystal Cavern. I saw some warmth but not what I'd call a reciprocated romantic love. And though I think she was manipulated to a degree (both by Hojo and her own delusions), I'm inclined to believe that her feelings for Hojo were sincere, which is very tragic (I don't doubt that these feelings are long dead, though). I don't think we were shown that dramatic kiss for nothing. I don't get the impression that Vincent and Lucrecia were in love and that Hojo tore them apart; just that Lucrecia chose Hojo and that this was her undoing.

I'm somewhere in the middle on this; I don't see him as a victim in any way, and believe that he is fully responsible for his actions. Though it's difficult to guess what he was like as a young man. There must have been something that made Lucrecia love or sympathise with him. I don't see him as some innocent and idealistic scientist that was manipulated by Jenova, and think that he must have always been emotionally distant and obsessed with his work and becoming a more respected scientist than Gast. I do to a degree see him as sympathetic and human because much of his thoughts and motivations are so ambiguous and interesting, as well as the complex issues of his relationship with Lucrecia and his hatred for Vincent. He's a dark and complex character, and one I find hugely interesting.

I agree! :lol:

Ah, fans of the fascinating Jenova Project. I just ran into the best Jenova fansite I've seen so far. So many articles, so many facts and so many speculations. Go check it out, sweeties. It looks good and is very informative. ^_^

http://jenova.org/jenova/

Thank you for the link, Andina! ^_^

Would you like to join our group?

I think I remember that website... It's very detailed, no? ^_^ I think I found that a few years back, but thanks for bringing it up again, Andina! The essays and such are very interesting... but I think JENOVA freaks me out too much. :lol:

I'd like to join please!

I'll analyze the quotes a little later, but about the mythology links that ~H_A~ brought up:

Both Odin and Nibelheim are technically "Norse", but they're easily confused with the Celtics (The Norse were the Vikings). Odin is the head god of the Norse Mythology, very wise and powerful, but he is also very capable of making mistakes. There are obviously many myths surrounding him, but I won't go into them at this time.

Nibelheim is probably derived from the word 'Nifleheim', you are correct in saying that it is frozen hell however. Nifleheim is the lowest level of 9 (?) Norse "worlds". Nifleheim is ruled by a goddess known as 'Hel' and is the resting place of all who died except those who died in battle.

Leviathan has many origins from many places. You are correct that it is mostly portrayed as a large water dwelling serpant, but I think the most common origin is Hebrew, not Celtic.

You are 100% correct with the Bahamut legend though.

Thanks MT! :huggle: I wasn't really sure about it, because I read that book a year ago or so. Thanks again. ^_^

excellent, thanks Andina. This is a great site... and I agree, Jenova doesn't get enough attention (and what an eery, creepy, mysterious villain she/he/it is...)

perhaps we should have a club for ... it... as well? lol

(I'll respond to Hyper's thoughts later... too tired, lol)

No prob! I'm just a mythology geek. :geek:

That'd be err...interesting. :lol: I'm not quite a fan of Jenova, but I do find his/her/its character fascinating. ^_^

JENOVA is very crucial to the plot, but I think of her as a creepy character. :ph43r: I was really freaked out during the flashback-Nibelheim scene. And the part when Sephiroth took her/his/its head.


In the JENOVA shrine, I think they were questioning if JENOVA was a fallen angel - that would certainly explain her not having a significant gender (angels never do :ph43r: ), but not the freaky appearance.

But of course, count me in, I love mysteries and Jenova if someone/something is a real mystery. ^_^

Welcome to both Andina and Materia Thief! Thanks for joining us! ^_^

Well, this is more of a club for the Jenova Project, but I see no reason not to post speculations about Jenova itself! It/she was the consuming focus of the Project, after all. :lol:

And MT; I think most fans of Jenova are the ones who find the entity fascinating, as opposed to being actual fans of the, err, character... :P

Yeah, you're right. :lol: I think I wasn't really quite thinking when I posted.

'Tis okay, Materia Thief. ^_^ Jenova looks freaky, and was pretty malevolent throughout the game (manipulating and trying to kill you and all... :whistle: ) so I don't think there would be fans of her personality and all but probably about fascination... :ph43r: Don't mind me... I forgot to take my pills today...


And there is a fiction written by this author about Jenova, that kind of dove in Jenova's past... but I'm not sure about the URL for it. <_<

I'd guess that it's all fascination, too. After all, there's just so much you can speculate over and create theories about! :fangirl:

I think the reason that no-one out there is a fan of Jenova's character isn't so much that she was evil, as much as that she doesn't really have a character, or personality. She only speaks one line in the game, and it's not much to go on. The rest is all speculation.

If you feel like discussing Jenova, here are some things you might want to talk about! ^_^

* What is Jenova exactly?
* Is Jenova female or genderless?
* What really happened between Jenova and the Cetra?
* To what extent would you consider Jenova to be the true villain of FFVII?
* Was Jenova able to puppet Sephiroth?
* Did Jenova have any influence over the characters and events of the Jenova Project?
* Jenova's possible role in AC.

Take your pick! :D

I'll briefly go over my opinions on each, so maybe we can start a discussion.

* What is Jenova exactly?

I believe Jenova is a parasitic alien being. From where, we can never be quite certain. She absorbs the resources of the planet she inhabits and when all of the resources are used up, she leaves. The cycle continues as she travels from planet to planet (that is until the Ancients finally seal her up, of course! ;))

* Is Jenova female or genderless?

Going along with my previous response, I'm not quite sure. Who knows what alien beings 'classify' themselves as. For all we know they could...be...err...asexual? :blink: I don't really want to say that they're DEFINITELY genderless, as it's easily apparent that Jenova has a very feminine appearance (with a chest and everything if I remember correctly). Also, she is constantly referred to as "mother", but I don't want to say she's female as, we can never be quite sure unless we find a "male" counterpart to Jenova. I think we can't really classify Jenova. Jenova is...Jenova. The references of "mother" are, in my opinion, just a human's habit of rationalizing and 'classifying' foreign objects into things we can understand. However, I do call her a "she" as it's just easier then continously typing out 'Jenova'. ^_^

Did that make any sense at all? :lol:

* What really happened between Jenova and the Cetra?

I believe Jenova crashlanded into Gaia after 'destroying' some distant, unmentioned planet. The Ancients are curious at the giant crater that she has created and discover her. What contact they had is debatable at best. She might've even befriended them, but we cannot be sure as Jenova's cognitive abilities (or lack of them, for that matter). However, I do believe that Jenova spread some form of disease, a viral infection of sorts which killed off many of the Cetra. The remaing Cetra seal her off and many years later she is discovered by Professer Gast and Hojo, starting the JENOVA Project. ^_^

* To what extent would you consider Jenova to be the true villain of FFVII?

I believe there are two possible main antagonists.

First is Jenova. She is almost literally a puppetmaster bending others to her will. She has powerful illusionary abilities and has an agenda for terracide. While she does seem to be the most likely candidate for the role of "true villain" there's another way to look at it.

The second way involves Professor Gast and Hojo. They exploit Jenova, experimenting on her and eventually releasing her. Using her cells, they are the cause of most of the tragedies within the present timeframe of FFVII. However, Professor Gast does leave the JENOVA Project, attempting to 'atone' for his wrongdoings. Also, while this might leave all the blame on Hojo, that is also not the case. First of all, he does not survive to the game, so everything after his death cannot necessarily be attributed to him. Also, for all we know, Jenova could've been controlling them as well all along. We do not know the effectiveness of the Cetra's "seal" upon Jenova. Is it possible that within the 20 year time frame between her discovery and her so-called "burial", that her consciousness and formidable powers of mind were able to escape her 'entombment'?

* Was Jenova able to puppet Sephiroth?

Yes, I do believe that's the case. Sephiroth, doubtful of his own origins was weak fragile during the Nibelheim episode. When someone is in doubt of their own abilities or actions they can easily be controlled and influenced, even by a simple human being, let alone a powerful parasitic alien lifeform and once she had her grasp upon his mind, she never let go until the end.

* Jenova's possible role in AC.

Jenova, in my opinion, was never defeated at the end of FFVII. We cannot be sure whether it is even possible to destroy her. The best the Cetra could do was seal her, lending reasonable doubts to her 'destructionablity factor.' The SHM appear to be searching for her and are even trying to create the Reunion once more. I do believe that she'll be a driving force within the plot, if not an enemy in her own right. :)

Sweet. B) This is interesting...


What is Jenova... ho-hum. Like Materia Thief, I think of her as parasidic alien, of unknown origin. But if she keeps moving on to another Planet, wouldn't there be no more until she finally dies out of lack of er... energy? :unsure: Just speculating here, but what if she could've opened up into a new cycle of human beings... ho-hum. ^_^


About Jenova being genderless... I think so. She does appear feminine - in Nibelheim - while at times she looks totally mutated. I think it would be better to call her mother, because the power that Sephiroth received - and the other Soldiers - did stem from her, as she was the provider, as the mother gives her womb. It does seem strange to call someone like her father though... :ermm:


Now between her and the Cetra. I'm going to bring up the fanfiction I read and posted about in my uh... last post. Normally, it was said Jenova befriended the Cetra and then betrayed them, unleashing a disease that twisted the Cetra. She was then sealed up and left at that.

What if Jenova lived once in another Planet, along with her other specie members (this will probably throw my first topic away ^_^ ), and another type of Cetra came and took her home? The corrupted Cetra? She fled, and landed in the Planet which the game is based on, and then took revenge, and so on.

How very interesting. ^_^


Meh, time for me to take a break before my head blows.

Interesting thoughts, guys! :D

I'll get onto replying properly and giving my thoughts on this a little later (sadly, there's essays to be written and then sleep to be had), but I just wanted to bump the thread and ask you all about a banner - I was thinking of asking CG to please make us one when she can, but I have no idea what sort of image to use. Does anyone have any suggestions? What would you like to see in the banner? Any favourite fanarts or good screenshots?

Let me know what you think! :huggle:

Perhaps something with Sephiroth pulling Jenova down? I'm trying to think of some good fanart, but can't quite remember right now.

Hojo.org would be a good place to start however. ^_^

I'll keep my eye out and look around. :)

Hojo.org? There's such a thing? :blink:


Hmmm... maybe it could be a collage of pictures of Jenova, Sephiroth, Lucrecia, Vincent, and Hojo. I don't think there would be a lot of Professor Gast's fanarts. :lol:

I'm not good with looking for fanart, but I'll try. ^_^

Yep!

Hojo.org is probably the best (and only) shrine for Hojo! It's also devoted to the JENOVA Project as well. Perfect, yes? ^_^

Hmmm... a shrine to Hojo... I should check it out :ph43r:


Was it ever established in FF7 if Vincent had been injected with Jenova cells or not? Or was he just tinkered with in the generic "science playing God" sense...? Just a random question...

Lucrecia.... if only I knew where you were. I'll join. Only if you people know where Lucrecia is...

Then, welcome to the fold, shadowedpuppet! ^_^

As for where Lucrecia is...that's a pretty good topic for conversation! Unfortunately, I believe that as of the end of the game, she's dead. I don't believe that she died thirty years ago, or that she's a ghost when you see her in the Crystal Cavern. I think what happened is that she ought to have died (probably from complications during Sephiroth's birth) and could possibly have seemed to be dead to Hojo, Vincent, Gast etc, but all the while the Jenova cells in her keeping her alive and allowing her to regenerate over time. But of course, this becomes a kind of curse, and the poor woman simply can't die no matter how much she may want to. From the Crystal Cavern sequence, I had the impression that she was physically alive, and had survived and endured, but that she was living a terrible and lonely half-life, cut-off from humanity and her body only clinging on. After her meeting with Vincent, I personally choose to believe that she died; not so much because hearing about Sephiroth's death finished her off (I think she only disappeared and embraced solitude again after her reunion with Vincent), but I think that when Holy manifested itself, it would've cleansed her body and allowed her to die and find her son in death. :cry:

Ah...now I have so much more to catch up with! :lol:

About a possible banner, the only group-fanarts I've found are too big to work in a small banner, so we're a bit stuck. I like the idea of using Jenova, but I would like one with Vincent, Lucrecia and Hojo, since they're behind the club's name. :rolleyes:

Maybe a screenshot? Like this maybe?



Anyway, I'll keep on the lookout for something suitable, and if you have anything you'd like to suggest, then let me know! ^_^

On to the Jenova questions:

* What is Jenova exactly?

I'm inclined to agree with MT that she/it is an alien parasite. I think she is a unique being (not one of a species or race of aliens) who moves from planet to planet, not feeding, but reproducing because as we can see in the game, she doesn't need nourishment in order to live, so I think her goal would be to reproduce by infecting creatures of other planets (I'd venture to say that it could be living planets which attract her). How sentient she is isn't clear to me. Is she a hugely intelligent being or is she an animal acting on instinct and ironically raised as a goddess-like epitome of perfection? I actually keep changing my mind on this, due to the fact that Jenova is physically dead - so she could have reverted to a state without consciousness, or she could be exerting as much influence as possible using her mind, which did not die with her body (personally, I lean towards the latter option). I think she's conscious and intelligent, but at the same time quite animal-like and governed by instinct - the instinct to reproduce, to reanimate and reunify her body, etc. Either way, I don't think her consciousness or soul is the same as ours, because she's a creature made for (in a sense) eternal life. Obviously, a human mind couldn't cope with that, so I think that her mind must be higher. It's all a part of her alien nature, I believe.

* Is Jenova female or genderless?

I actually think that she might be female, in a way, because of her unecessary (because she has no use for it) female anatomy, her being referred to as a "mother" creator...and I just find something very feminine about her nature. :P I just like thinking of her as a Lilith-figure, or a throwback to myths about primal but powerful beings - half woman, half monster, enticing and destructive. I think you're both right about her asexuality, because if she reproduces by infecting the creatures of foreign planets, then she has no need for gender. So why does she look so feminine? It could be that she's "spiritually" a woman, or that her gender is part of the disguise she used to fool the Cetra, or that she only appears feminine to us, but she isn't in her own terms because there is no "male" equivalent to her form. Her appearance might just coincide with our interpretation of what is female. If any of that made any sense. :lol:

* What really happened between Jenova and the Cetra?

I think that after arriving from the skies, she was approached by the Cetra (who went to the Crater in order to aid the Planet - I think Ifalna says something to this effect) and emerges. I think she draws them to her through illusions and then infects them and begins reproducing through that method, and decimates the Cetra in huge numbers (who possibly go on and create all the species of monster on the Planet?). The humans are spared for the time, because they've given up their nomadic nature and are less likely to come into contact with her (Hopeful - humans are "the corrupted Cetra"; they're corrupted because they gave up their quest to settle the Planet and chose a more material, stable and comfortable life for themselves). Then I think that the surviving Cetra gather their numbers and fight Jenova, and kill her without destroying her body, and seal her away in the Crater. However, the death (and later dismemberment) of her body doesn't kill her mind (possibly because of her own strength, or her inablity to return to the Planet) and so she remains mentally-alive, but totally inanimate.

* To what extent would you consider Jenova to be the true villain of FFVII?

Tricky question, if I do say so myself! :lol: I think Jenova's evil, while very cunning, manipulative and elaborate, is still purely instinctive and a result of her natural drive and a higher level of consciousness rather than a more "human" malevolence. She doesn't seem deliberately cruel to any of her puppets; she just uses them like extra limbs or tools, and while she seems to have no concept or regard for the individual suffering she causes, I don't think she's causing suffering for the sake of causing suffering, either. She's simply doing what she's always done, what instinct dicates that she continues to do - ethics doesn't come into it, particuarly not human ethics or morality, because she isn't human and is both above and below our concepts of right and wrong, cruelty and kindness, good and evil. While she's responsible for much of FFVII's darkness, I don't find her "evil" enough to be the true villain. In that sense, I think that Hojo is far more villainous, because his actions and choices are directly responsible. The concept of right and wrong does apply to him, and is something he understands but chooses to ignore next to his scientific ambitions. He's responsible for terrible suffering. He does terrible things to his fellow humans, and takes a great deal of interest and pleasure in it, and clearly feels no guilt at all. He has just as must capacity for good as any other character, he had a woman who loved him (or so I believe) and he exploits them. While I think that his actions were influenced by a growing insanity and an obsession with Jenova, and that his evil is a very human sort of evil (as opposed to Jenova's inhuman and impersonal evil), I still believe that he is the main villain of the game.

* Was Jenova able to puppet Sephiroth?

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, Sephiroth's strength and powers of manipulation are extremely diluted versions of what Jenova is capable of, and considering his fragile state of mind in Nibelheim, he could easily have been manipulated. On the other hand, his will is too strong to let his soul become part of the Lifestream, so he could easily be thought of as having strong enough willpower to resist manipulation. He's also aware enough to manipulate Jenova's reunion to his own advantage, to manipulate the clones to fit his own agenda (his goal of godhood also doesn't include Jenona at all, despite what he said in Nibelheim about ruling the Planet with her). Also, he's the final boss of the game - you defeat Jenova first. If Jenova was really pulling the strings, how would Sephiroth be able to face you after her defeat? It's possible that both are correct: that Sephiroth was initially manipulated into carrying out Jenova's plans, but then later (probably after that dip in raw mako) regained self-awareness and self-control, and using Jenova to his own ends.

* Did Jenova have any influence over the characters and events of the Jenova Project?

I don't think so. The people usually suggest this are Hojo-apologists who claim that he was just as much a puppet as any other character. Personally, I disagree, because from what we see in the game only people carrying Jenova's cells can be manipulated by Jenova (which Hojo doesn't inject himself with until the end of Disc 2). If Jenova could control creatures without her cells in them, then I think it would've been much easier for her to carry out her plans, and she could've had everything she wanted much sooner. I think that Hojo clutching at his head just before shooting Vincent isn't to do with being puppeted, just a mental breakdown, or "snapping". So no, I think everything surrounding the Jenova Project was a result of human folly, pure and simple.

* Jenova's possible role in AC.

Your guess is as good as mine! I think I'll wait and see for this one! :lol:

Buhon: You should definitely check out hojo.org - it's a very interesting and informative shrine. ^_^

As for your question; it was never established in the game, but I do think that Vincent was injected with Jenova cells as part of Hojo's experiments on him, for may reasons. For one thing, it would explain the red eyes, how he continued to live despite being shot (interestingly, the Erhegeiz manual says that he was killed and then revived) and why he hasn't aged, and it'd also explain his transformations during limit breaks (a common effect of Jenova cells) and it'd further justify his claim that his body is his punishment for his so-called sin. It would also make his suffering and nightmares that much more understandable to us, I think. Another reason is that Jenova cells were still a hot topic at the time, and all of Hojo's previous work with them would have been very controlled, and with Lucrecia and Gast involved. This is very much his first chance to see what they are really capable of, and he's given a free rein to do whatever he likes because Vincent is completely in his power. I think it's hard to believe that he wouldn't use Jenova cells, especially considering his fascination with Jenova, and his general eagerness to transform and mutate living things, just to see what happens. And considering that he shoots Vincent, Hojo really has no reason to resist the temptation. Another thing is how Vincent joins the party: at first he wants to be left alone, but then changes his mind and follows you. I think this could be because of the Reunion, and that Vincent felt subconsciously drawn by it. It makes him follow, which he justifies by asking about meeting Hojo. Like Cloud, he could think that he's pursuing revenge, when in fact he's being called by the Reunion. Does that make sense to you? :unsure:

I'd like to try that club tag, Hyper. ^_^ Yeah, a Jenova screenshot would be nice, but a club tag is actually kinda small... :ermm:

And... after reading through your post, I know I was just stating something that was interesting, I know it's not exactly a fact. :blush: Uh... whoops?


With Lucrecia, I think she would've died. But then when Holy manifested, wouldn't it proceed to cleanse the rest of the Jenova-stricken organisms? :ermm: Or is that what Geostigma is...? :lol:

Yes, I also think that the Jenova cells kept her alive. After bringing forth a different kind of child, I think she would've died with all of the Mako and such poisoning her body. Maybe it was a kind of gradual thing, like with leukemia. When she finally met Vincent, her body was pretty much destroyed, and she died seeing him last.

*gasp* And my brother didn't tell me about this club! I am shocked! Anyway, I would like to join. VxL always. I killed Hojo, he's dead in my basement that I don't have.

Hello, Iris! Welcome! Come back, thirty years ago, when one of the darkest tales in Final Fantasy 7 takes place...

...wait! How old would Hojo be now? Fifty? 'Cause if it was thirty years ago... oh yeah. :whistle:

lol. I think he would be. I'd love to go back 30 years ago. I wasn't even born! lol. *sighs* I could see my guardians when they were like 8 or 7.

Welcome, Iris! Have fun discussing the Project with us! ^_^

Also, some minor news: I have some fanfics relevant to this sublot and its characters available on FanFiction.net if anyone feels like checking them out. :gift:

1) Primary - a new Hojo-centric fic.
2) Terra Incognita - a slightly older (and much longer) Hojo-centric fic, but still fairly recent.
3) The Ninth Wave - an old fanfic written from Lucrecia's perspective.

Yay! Thank you! :fangirl:

No problem! But feel free to clarify your points and discuss your idea/theory further if you like! I'm happy to hear it! :D

I agree! I think the main factors in her "death" would have been the birth of Sephiroth, and a latent reaction to all the Mako and Jenova cells in her body - she might have been quite healthy with calculated doses of both while pregnant, but after giving birth the treatment might've become malignant and life-threatening. It's even possible that she developed mako poisoning, or that withdrawral from the injection put her life in jeopardy, with only the Jenova cells keeping her hanging on to life. :cry:

It depends on how old you estimate he is during the Jenova Project. Personally, I think of him as having been a little bit younger than Vincent (27), so I'd place him at 25 during the Project (with Lucrecia at 24), which would make him 55 during the game's current events. But it's all up to speculation!

What do you think, though? I'm curious to know. :rolleyes:

Withdrawal from the injections? :ermm: But what about all the other SOLDIERs? They don't suffer from withdrawals even if they had an enormous dose of the Mako. But yep, it's still sad. :sad:

I'm still struggling with the club tag... >_<

I've been wondering that.

New question to the club:

Does Lucrecia have Geostigma? Considering the amount of injections she most likely had, would she/could she have Geostigma? This is all according to the hypothesis that she is indeed alive at the end. ^_^



And Hopeful, I'm sure the sig will look great! ^_^

I hope you guys find it so! Here it is! :woot:



I'll get to your question soon, Materia Thief... maybe tomorrow... :yawn:

sign me up! hojo and lucrecia do belong together, and i think if lucrecia had another chance, she would go with vincent. :vincent:

:lol: Welcome AR!

And that's a lovely sig, Hopeful! ^_^