Freaky idea. What if Sephiroth's plan was to actually GET killed on purpose? First, the Sephiroth in the Materia in the Crater got the black materia, and then, when all the weapons were released he fell into the Lifestream. You remember that the Sephiroth in the casing had no jacket? Neither did the last you fight either so I'm sure it's the same Sephy. Then, he tested Cloud's strength, by sending a fusion of his mental projection, and Jenova, (Bizzaro Sephiroth) and a image of himself as a god (Safer Sephiroth) So, if Cloud defeated these, which he did, Sephiroth would know that Cloud had the power to kill him. He then, with the last of his power entered Cloud's mind once more, and manged to grab hold of his soul, and drag him into the Lifestream. Sephiroth held back, and let Cloud destroy him, thus Sephiroth would enter become a soul himself, and enter the Lifestream. Or would he? I believe he used this as a means of escape from the Lifestream, managing to get out before death took complete hold on him. And seeing as the Lifestream is able to heal (You see where I'm going with this?) Sephiroth got out, entered Midgar, and when the Lifestream was summoned, Sephiroth used it to heal himself! That's what the explosion was! It was Sephiroth returning to power once more! Muhahahahahaahahahahah! :devil: However, Sephy no get godlike powers. He was able to get enough to heal him, and that was it. Sure most of the Lifestream destroyed Meteor, but that was it. This is why Sephiroth waited to kill Aerith. He knew Holy wasn't strong enough, so he waited for Aerith to bring it forth, and then, when Holy wasn't working he knew she would bring forth the Lifestream. Sephiroth didn't need a wound, he needed the threat. Now, he's been waiting in Midgar, as the SHM (Silver haired men) gather the children cursed with the side affect of being in close contact with the tainted Lifestream. This has been confirmed that Geostigma comes from the Lifestream. I think what it means by TAINTED though, is if you remember, Jenova Synthensis was fought INSIDE the planet. If it truly went BOOM don't you think some of it's cells would have flown into the Lifestream? Jenova has a bad affect on people, just look at Sephy's insanity. So, that's why Sephiroth wants to gather the children, to heal himself. If you've seen the 25 minute trailer, at the end there's a part at the end which shows Sephiroth coming down from a building. So it's possible, seeing as the orphans are walking around like zombies, that he has been healed. And to prove my point that Sephy has been hiding in Midgar, is this takes place in Midgar. Ha. He most likely has one of the worse cases of Geostigma, seeing as he used it to heal himself. Maybe Geostigma is like a snake bite. The only thing that can heal it is it's own venom. I dunno. :blink: But, I've got some stuff on the Wheelchair person too. IT IS RUFUS. It's practically been confirmed. Here at www.Adventchildren.net, they have a confirmed voice acting cast. And on it is Rufus. There's another part in the 25 minute trailer where the wheelchair person takes of the blanket, and his unrecognizable due to a really bad case of Geostigma. Again, this has been confirmed. He most likely got Geostigma the same way Sephiroth did. He could have been slightly alive from Diamond WEAPONS blast, and the Lifestream healed him. And, I believe he has found the head of Jenova. This is why he's got the SHM under his control. You know how loyal Sephy clones are to their "Mother." Phew. That's it. Feel free to trash it.

I just now saw your theory!! Sorry, it seems that you posted this some time ago, and no one responded to it. :(

I'm wondering about a few things. First of all, what makes you think the Lifestream heals? It almost killed Cloud when he was drifting in it from the Northern Crater to Mideel. If the Lifestream heals, then wouldn't the citizens of the Planet be using it to cure people who were sick and injured? :unsure:

This is possible. I've been thinking that the Sephiroth we see in AC hasn't been resurrected. I think it's only his spirit. Hojo said that Sephiroth was able to keep from merging with the Lifestream by the strength of his will when he was in the Northern Crater, too:

Hojo "But being a genius that I am, I soon figured it out. You see it was all Sephiroth's doing." "Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the Lifestream; he wants to maniplate the Clones himself."
(The room seems to darken and Cloud sits down on the root, defying gravity. He crosses his arms on his knees.)
Cloud "Yes, that was how it got started."

Cloud agrees with what Hojo said there, so we can assume that it's accurate, too. I've often wondered if Sephiroth was actually dead in the Northern Crater. If Sephiroth kept from merging with the Lifestream, it would essentially be the same as Seymour existing as an Unsent in FFX. I think the Sephiroth we see in AC is the same as an Unsent in FFX. Sephiroth used the strength of his will to keep from merging with the Lifestream.

Aerith indicated that was possible at the Temple of Ancients. When they got there, she said this:

Aerith "This is... the Temple of the Ancients..." "I... I know... I feel it... the knowledge of the Ancients.. floating..." "You could become one with the Planet, but you're stopping it with the strength of will."

Where was that confirmed? I believe that's only a theory, and I don't agree with it. :lol: If Geostigma comes from contact with a tainted Lifestream, then why do so few people have it? The Lifestream washed over the entire Planet at the end of FFVII, but only Cloud, the WCM, and the orphans have Geostigma. Far more people would be effected by Geostigma if they got it by being in contact with a contaminated Lifestream.

I think that your theory is pretty good, but has a problem, it is based almost on pure speculation, and not too much on facts. For example, you said that the Lifestream has the power to heal, but there's not part on the game in wich, you're given that kind of information, or that Sephiroth anticipated almost every one of Aerith's moves. But I think that your theory base is good, but you didn't cleared it up proerly.

Now taking some points on your theory that I found interesting were:

This is a good point, since through the game we saw that Sephiroth always found his ways to manipulate Cloud, and this one might have be one more of his plans. I also remember when Aerith said in the Temple of the Ancients: "This is... the Temple of the Ancients..." "I... I know... I feel it... the knowledge of the Ancients.. floating..." "You could become one with the Planet, but you're stopping it with the strength of will." (thanx Anastar for the quote), and I also remember that Sephiroth wanted to merge with the Lifestream, but his plans with Meteor failed, but even so throughout the game many lifes were lost, and I'm sure that that's enough power for him. But I'm sure that he needs more than his will, and the Lifestream to return to life, and I'm sure that that's the role the children will play.

There are a lot of theories, that try to explain Geostigma's creator, I hear of one, in wich it was the Planet the one who generated the Geostigma in order to eliminate the JENOVA and Sephiroth threat. How can we back up this theory, Cloud has Geostigma, because he has some JENOVA cells (remember he had this experiment being done on him, and that's why he could be manipulated by JENOVA or Sephiroth, and also in some part of the trailers one of the SHM, maybe Kadaj, called him the traitor), the WCM, well I don't know who he is, but he might have some sort of relation with JENOVA or SEPHIROTH, and the children might have Geostigma, because of the plans that the SHM have on them, wich might be in favour of JENOVA or Sephiroth.

____________________________________________________________________

From a personal theory I don't think that Sephiroth has been in search for Cloud, just for revenge. I think that he wants Cloud as a medium to return to life, like his host. That's why he has had Cloud through all those battles, so that he would become stronger, and become a worthy host. And Geostigma might be a bond that he stablished between him, Cloud, and the Orphans, the one's that might be used for his return (still can't figure how, but I'm on my way to it). And about the WCM, I can't have any words on him beacause I don't know who he is, but I'm sure he's not Rufus, since I don't find him a role in the movie since Shinra has disappeared, and I'm sure he died in the explosion of Ultima weapon.

BTW, I found something real interesting, many people says that Sephiroth will be in the movie, because he is one of the characters, that appear on the character section of the AC official site. But I have seen that Zack is also there and he's for saying it this way, he's the most dead character among all the dead characters of FFVII. This is kind of interesting, because Sephiroth and Zack are in the characters section and not Aerith, I think that the movie developers are tryng to make as deviate our sight from Aerith, and make us think of her as a mere memory, so that she would have a surprising role in the movie. What do you think of this?

That's actually a good theory about the Planet creating Geostigma to get rid of any who carry Jenova cells. The only people we know to be infected right now are those who have Jenova cells. The only problem I see with that theory is that we already know that some SOLDIERs survive AC. In one interview about DC, Nomura said that some SOLDIERs were buried deep underground by Meteor. That's who the Deep Underground SOLDIERs are that Vincent's fighting. It's possible, however, that the DUS can't be affected by Geostigma until they come to the surface of the Planet.

Possibly. That would actually be an interesting twist - to have Sephiroth take over Cloud as a host so that Vincent has to kill Cloud. :devil:

Hmmm... it's been pretty well established that the WCM is Rufus, unfortunately. I would much rather that it be Hojo. :lol:

I definitely think that Aerith will have a surprising role in the movie. Aerith was too important a character in the game for Square to give her nothing but a tidbit role in the movie. If Square can give large roles to characters such as the Turks and Rufus, then they'd better give an important role to Aerith, too.

SOLDIER members doesn't have JENOVA cells within them, they were only exposed to Mako energy, the only SOLDIER members that had JENOVA cells, were two SOLDIERS used on an experiment, those two SOLDIERS were Cloud and Zack, but the only one who showed reaction to JENOVA cells was Cloud, this information was detailed in the Shirnra Mansion basement, in the books, and in the movie that you see there of Cloud and Zack fleeing from Shinra.

So, as far as we know the only ones to have Geostigma are:
*Cloud
*The Children
*The Weel Chair Man
*The Silver Hair Men???

I'm sure that there is a bond between the Geostigmats, (this word that I made up refers to the ones that have the Geostigma disease, but I'm sure that you've already figured it out) and if you find the bond, you'll know the base of the plot of the movie, but I haven't deciphered it yet.

If my theory it's ok, I'm sure that part of the movie will show the struggle of Cloud trying to stop Sephiroth to take control of him. But i'm sure that he (Sephiroth) wont take control of him, but even so Sephiroth, will find a host (Kadaj perhaps?) and will face Cloud (the one who must have found something that made his life worth, maybe at this point Aerith might already returned, and she's the one whos makes Cloud's life worth of living) for their final battle.

Can you please explain me why the SCM is Rufus? So far I've have seen, there are no hints, that tells us for sure, who the WCM really is? But I'm open-minded if you explain me I might understand. :lol:

If her role os only to be a memory, dream or spiritual guide, I'm going to be really pissed off, and might think it twice before buying another FF game, specially the other FFVII sequels. Aerith has to return, one way or another, she has to return.

Nope... all SOLDIERs had Jenova cells. Cloud says so after the Lifestream Event when he talks to everyone on board the Highwind:

Cloud "You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy." "Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......"

Right... the bond is that they all have Jenova cells in them. We know the children have Jenova cells in them because the SHM want the children to participate in the Reunion. Everything points to the SHM as having Jenova cells, too. Nomura pretty much confirmed that they are Sephiroth clones. If the WCM has Geostigma (and it hasn't been confirmed that he does), then he must have Jenova cells in him, too. The question is - how did the children get Jenova cells in them? If the WCM is Rufus, how and when did he get Jenova cells in him?

Eh, there was a long debate about this at Advent Children.net. Someone developed a long and detailed post about the evidence. I honestly don't remember most of his evidence. :lol: The most convincing thing to me was that Rufus's left side was facing the impact of the explosion when Diamond Weapon fired on his office, and the WCM's left arm is missing. Rufus would also have a great many burn scars, etc, from the explosion. That would explain the blanket, which is probably over his head to cover the burns. The WCM appears to be wearing something white under the blanket, and Rufus always wore white. Someone even looked at the shoes he's wearing, and the shoes seem to be Rufus's, too. There was a whole bunch of stuff they went into. Then a list of the voice actors came out, and a voice actor was listed for Rufus.

I doubt that she's going to be resurrected in AC, very honestly. I think Aerith's appearance in Kingdom Hearts was her "resurrection". However, Sephiroth obviously has a major role in the movie despite being dead, so why couldn't Square do the same for Aerith? I'd also be disappointed if Aerith is only some kind of psychological counselor for Cloud in AC. I hope she has a more active role in the movie than that.

Very interesting theory, Aerith's lover. That would certainly be a cool twist. Sure, it's mostly speculation, but what's wrong with that? :P FF7 is good enough a game that you can do that till your heart's content, and still have more to play around with.

Hmm, interesting Clerith-son - Sephiroth wanting Cloud as a vessel for ressurecting itself. it's so twisted it might work... I've wondered about that myself - perhaps not Sephiroth, but Jenova herself wanting to make use of Cloud for her plans? In regards to Aerith-lover's view that Sephiroth "held-back" in order to allow himself to get killed - I always thought, ever since witnessing Cloud knocking Sephiroth into the lifestream in Nibelheim, that Cloud has some sort of unusual power at his disposal, so that he would have been able to dispatch Sephiroth, regarldless of whether Sephy wanted him to or not.

I couldn't agree with you more. I've had the exact same suspicions myself. I think Square is deliberately trying to distract us away from Aerith's character in the storyline, so that it'll be more of a "surprise" when her vital role (and it will be vital!) in the movie is revealed.

Ok, thanx for the clarification, but remember that not every SOLDIER member showed reaction to JENOVA cells, remember that Zack had them too, but he didn't showed reaction to it, I think that the one's who have Geostigma, are the one's who show reaction to JENOVA cells. And I don't now either, how the children got JENOVA cells within them (maybe they're sons and daughters of EX-SOLDIERS, just a theory).

Yes, that's a bond but not the bond I was talking about, see would be normal for a SOLDIER or EX-SOLDIER to have Geostigma, since all of them were infused with JENOVA cells (even if not all of them showed reaction to it), also for the SHM would be normal to have JENOVA cells if they were Sephiroth's clones, depending on who the WCM is I could take out conclusions, but if he's Rufus, then he might have injected JENOVA cells since he was in Shirnra and he might have had some reason for it, but how did the children got JENOVA cells, that's a big mistery, but there must be a reason for them to have Geostigma, but the reason of why all of them have Geostigma is the bond that they have in common, if you decipher it you'll now many things about the movie.

I doubt too that she'll be resurrected, since the movie is 70 mins long, and there's not enough time for it, but I think that she should have a better role rather than being a mere memory, dream or spiritual guide. But if Sephiroth is to be revived, then why can't Cloud find a way to revive Aerith too?

That sounds interesting Buhon. Cloud having some sort of special power that he doesn't now, and that he unleashes when he's really pissed of. It could be better backed up if you remember that you never know who's Cloud's father, he might have been a Cetra, who knows?

Haha, oddly enough, Clerith-son, the fact that Cloud might be half-Cetra himself is something I've been arguing on this board for quite some time (I'm not sure which threads off the top of my head). Two of the things I've pointed out are the fact that we don't know about Cloud's father, and his strange and sudden "superhuman strength" after the even in Nibelheim. As was mentioned in this thread, the problem is is that it's all subjective, and there's no real "evidence" to back it up per se. Just something that could reasonably be argued within the larger context of the game.

Yes, but I think that Cloud being half Cetra as Aerith, is a theory that will remain as a theory, since I'm sure that we'll never know who Cloud's father is. But that would make an ever thicker bond between Cloud and Aerith. I also think that another theory for Cloud's strenght, could be that the JENOVA cells that he had infused in his body by the Shinra scientists, fitted perfectly on him.

Okay, that's a little different. Those with a weak will have a reaction to the Jenova cells. Cloud also explained that on board the Highwind after the Lifestream Event, but it's explained a little more clearly in a direct translation from the Japanese script, which can be found here: http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ff7/text/trans/tifa.txt

Claude: (nods) My body is just like a Soldier's. Hojo's Sephiroth Copies are made in the same method as the Soldiers. Soldiers don't only get Makou doses... they are humans embedded with Jenova's cells. It has nothing to do with how good or bad you are...only the strong become Soldiers. They can live without being affected by Jenova's Reunion...but weak ones like me, we lose our minds.

Those with a strong will are able to resist Jenova's manipulations. Candidates for SOLDIER were picked on the basis of whether or not they had a strong will. SOLDIERs were those with a strong will, so that they were able to resist Jenova's manipulations as well as her call to the Reunion. Cloud didn't have a strong will, so he was affected by Jenova's manipulations and the call to the Reunion.

We've been hypothesizing in this forum that those with a weak will are those affected by Geostigma. That would explain why the SHM have Jenova cells but are unaffected by Geostigma. It would also explain why the Deep Underground Soldiers in DC aren't affected by Geostigma.

You also suggest that the children may be the children of SOLDIERs. I've been thinking along the same lines, except I couldn't figure out what happened to the mothers... until recently. :lol: Sephiroth was produced by injecting Jenova cells into Lucrecia's womb. What if Hojo found a way to produce Sephiroth clones as test-tube babies, so that Lucrecia's weren't needed? That would explain how the SHM were produced, and it would also explain the "orphans" who have Jenova cells.

Yes, it's possible that Rufus was injected with Jenova cells. He may have requested to be injected with Jenova cells because he was under the impression that it would make him more powerful, or he may have been injected with Jenova cells by doctors after the explosion in an effort to keep him alive. But going with the theory that Hojo found a way to produce Sephiroth clones as test-tube babies. The SHM may be "perfect" copies who have a strong will, and the "orphans" may be imperfect copies with a weak will.

How do we know that Sephiroth has actually been revived?

Again, thanx for the clarifications. :P

Well, let me understan this, are you saying that the children are also clones? It's quite interesting, but I think that they are not copies, but still don't know how did they get Geostigma. Also the Geostigma Virus wasn't made by JENOVA but against JENOVA cells, so even if the SHM are perfect copies, with strong will and everything, they can still be infected by Geostigma.

This is were is get confused, a while ago I said that Cloud thought that Sephiroth was dead, but you told that he already saw him. Isn't this question a little bit contradictory?

The Wheelchaired Guy IS Rufus. I strongly believe and feel that it is Rufus.

Yes, I think the SHM can be affected by Geostigma... maybe that's why it's one of the reasons why they want to destroy the planet because Geostigma is like the Planet's way of revenge to the people for trying to destroy her (the Planet itself).

As for Sephiroth, he could just be dead... but traces of him still exist and linger in Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo that's why maybe he said that he wouldn't be just a memory? Or maybe he could still come back through the efforts of Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo and what they're planning to do with the Planet.

If you aske me, I agree with you, Tifa. If it weren't him, why would there be a Turk pushing the wheelchair?

About Sephiroth, I think maybe he did come back to life as in the latest trailer he did say, "I refuse to be a memory." Maybe Jenova, like Vincent said, managed to revive him or created another Sephiroth clone. :unsure:

Yes, but I'm also working from the theory that those with a weak will get Geostigma while those with a strong will don't.

If the children are clones, they would get the Jenova cells. If the children also have a weak will, then they would get Geostigma. The SHM are also clones, but they don't get Geostigma because they have a strong will.

Cloud saw Aerith, too, but she hasn't been revived. Aerith also touched Cloud's arm, which means that she had physical contact with him. Cloud sees Sephiroth and is about to fight with him, which means that Sephy will have physical contact with him, too. What's the difference? ;)

I'm suggesting that maybe Sephy is existing somewhat like Seymour existed as an Unsent in FFX. I don't think Sephy has been revived. I think he exists as something like an Unsent.

But then we have to ask why the SHM don't have Geostigma? If the SHM and the children both have Jenova cells, then why do the children have Geostigma and the SHM don't?

You were the one explained me that, it were the ones witha strong will the ones who could resist JENOVA's manipulations, remember? Yes, they can resist what JENOVA does, but Geostigma wasn't made by JENOVA, but against it, that's why all those who have JENOVA cells are dying. It's like saying that because you are inmune to flu, you're inmune to cancer, you can be inmune to flu, but if you have cancer your inmunity to flu doesn't helps you (I hope you haven't get tired of my weird comparissions :P ).

Yes, he saw Aerith, but in a flower field, that is well stated that does not exist, so it doesn't matter if she toched, kissed or whatever she did to him, that didn't happened, because it was a dream. But when Sephiroth appeared, it was never shown that it was a dream, and the place where he saw him seemed to be pretty much real.

But how do we know, that they don't have Goestigma? I havent seen the four trailers, and maybe didn't saw the part in wich we are told that they don't have Geostigma. So if you saw it, tell me.

I'm not saying that the WCM is definitely not Rufus, but, if he is, what role would he play, if Shinra Inc. doesn't exists anymore?

I would totally agree on all counts, Clerith-son, although if Jenova gave Cloud such strength, why not any of the other individuals injected with Jenova cells (like Zack). I'm also curious why Cloud has such an unusually bad reaction to getting injected with Jenova Cells (Zack was in much better shape than him when they made their escape). Anastar's quote on Cloud's explanation for how Jenova injections work is quite helpful:

but there's a problem here: Cloud's reaction is explained away as him having a "weak will." Yet, during the game, Cloud is, in fact, able to maintain SOME control of himself during Jenova's attempt at the reunion (all the other clones, for example, are practically zombies wandering arond Nibelheim). So, it's unclear from the game if Cloud truly IS one of the so called "weak-willed failures," or if there is something entirely different going on with Cloud. At times he seems weak, and at other times he seems strong... again, the possibility of him being a Cetra would, in my mind, offer some explanations for this issue :rolleyes:

I had a thought - though it doesn't really add anything as to WHY someone has Jenova cells in them or not - perhaps Geostigma isn't a "disease" so much as it is Jenova cells consuming the bodies of it's victims (those who have Jenova cells in them) in order to "rebuild" Jenova. Thus, all Geostigma victims (especially the children) are esentially vessels (or "fodder") for regenerating the body of Jenova, like some sort of weird parasitic cancer. That would indeed explain why the SHM are so interested in rounding up the children (reunion part 2?), and why the SHM themselves would not have Geostigma (Jenova has no desire to "absorb" them... yet). Also - this means that Cloud cannot simply have the luxury of just dying - if he lets himself go, he's just "food" for the re-emerging Jenova. Thoughts?

Yes, I understand what you mean, and you make a good point. However, it seems that the strong-willed don't have Geostigma (the SHM, the DUS) while those with a weak will do (Cloud, the children).

However, the communication between Cloud and Aerith was real, was it not? What Aerith told Cloud in the Sleeping Forest during FFVII was real, too, but it was only a dream. Sephiroth entered that same dream in the Sleeping Forest after Aerith left, which shows that Sephiroth has the same ability to enter Cloud's mind as Aerith. In the Temple of Ancients, Sephiroth said this:

Sephiroth "I'm far superior to the Ancients." "I became a traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients." "I also gained the knowledge and wisdom of those after the extinction of the Ancients."

So Sephiroth is capable of whatever Aerith is capable of as a Cetra. If Aerith is able to enter Cloud's mind after dying, then so can Sephiroth.

We haven't seen any indication that the SHM have Geostigma. Those with Geostigma have open wounds, bandages, and experience pain. There's no indication of that with the SHM. I guess we can't be certain that they don't have it, but there's been no indication of it.

Cloud was rejected from SOLDIER because he had a weak will. Cloud was manipulated by Sephiroth because he had a weak will. Cloud was summoned to the Reunion because he had a weak will. Cloud said himself that he had a weak will.

Cloud wasn't as messed up as the black-cloaked clones of Nibelheim, but no explanation for that was ever given in the game. So how can we know why there was such a difference? One possible explanation is that the treatments Cloud received in Hojo's lab were different from the treatments given to the black-cloaked clones. Since it was never explained in the game, we can't know for sure.

You are making a good point too, as well. But I think that after Cloud "found himself", he stopped being a weak willed, as you might see in the game after he "finds himself" JENOVA or Sephiroth never manipulate him again. I don't know if the SHM have Geostigma or not, but I think that Geostigma is a disease made by the planet to destroy JENOVA cells, so if this is the reason then, neither strong willed will be inmune, and about the DUS (those guys appear on DC, am I right?), they might have been infected as well, but DC takes place one year after DC, so this might mean, that they survived, maybe a cure was found or something. But even so your theort is a very good one, and I share many points of it.

Another good point. I had forgotten the Sleeping Forest scene. But: Why would Sephiroth enter in Cloud's dream to tell him that he plans on returning? Wouldn't this be risky if he knows that Cloud is very capable of stopping this from happening.

Also I want you to tell me what do you think about this theory I just made up. See, what if Aerith never entered Cloud's dream, but if it was the Planet that showed him that (as with the Cetra, just for th record, I'm not saying that he might be a Cetra, but but somehow he managed to hear the Planet). I remember that in the Temple of the Ancients Aerith hears something (when she started talking to the Planet at the entrance of the Temple of the Ancients, remember?), and then she asks Cloud if he heard it, and he replies that he did, but Cait Sith said that he couldn't hear anything. My idea is that the Planet can comunicate with Cloud, but that Cloud can't comunicate with the Planet, until the game's last scene, in wich Cloud says, The Promised Land...I think I can meet her... there". And what he saw in the flower yard scene, was a mix of Cloud's thoughts and some answers from the Planet, in wich his thought that Aerith never blamed him for anything, and in wich the Planet told him that he would be reunited with her.

Mmm... Ok, fair enough.

I think that Anastar already covered that one, but I think that if the clones were like zombies, it was beacuse their only purpose for being created, might have been only to serve fot JENOVA's plans (so that they were mere puppets) , unlike Cloud that wasn't a clone, but a man wich even if he was manipulated because of his weak will, had some will enough to get some control of himself.

Sephiroth manipulates him again in the Northern Crater after they defeat Safer Sephiroth, right here:

Tifa "What......"
(The screen goes white, longer this time, with the sound of rushing wind. Cloud shakes his head.)
Cloud "He is still...... here."
(Again. Cloud falls to the ground, clutching his head, and we see Cloud's double, white and ghostlike, fall with him.)
Cloud "Still......"
(The screen goes white.)
Tifa "Cloud!?"
(It fades. Cloud is in tremors, still tightly clutching his head.)
Cloud "He's... laughing..."
(Cloud's double removes from his body and spins off into the distance. The screen goes white once more.)

Yes, the DUS are the guys who appear on DC. I agree that something has sent Geostigma to stop those with Jenova cells. However - at this point - I don't see that the ones with a strong will are getting the disease.

He didn't tell Cloud that he was returning. All Sephiroth said was, "I won't become a memory". I'm guessing here, but I think he means that he won't become a spirit who's incapable of having effect on the physical world. It's like the difference between Cloud's "dream" of Aerith in the flower field and the flashbacks of Zack. Cloud just remembers something in the past that happened with Zack, but Cloud is able to communicate with Aerith. Zack is just a memory.

Aerith was talking to the guardian Cetra spirits of the Temple when they arrived at the Temple of Ancients, and she never asked Cloud if he could hear it. However, I do think it's possible that Cloud can hear the Planet. When he says, "An answer from the Planet.... I think I can meet her.... there", Cloud may have simply come to that conclusion after seeing Aerith's hand reaching out to him. The answer that he got from the Planet may have come from Aerith. It may be the Planet communicating with him in the flower field, but I really think it's Aerith's spirit communicating with Cloud. After all, she also speaks to Cloud at other times in the trailers, like when she says, "Let's go.... Cloud...."

If Cloud's will is so weak then why did he stopped himself from killing Aerith, when Sephiroth manipulated him to do so at the Forgotten Capitol? You might say that it was because the others told him to stop, but they also told him to to handle Sephiroth the black materia and even so he did it. Also when he Omnislashed Sephiroth, I'm sure that he (Sephiroth) would have tried to manipulate him, in order that Cloud would stop beating the hell out of him, but he couldn't, I'm sure that he might have tried, I don't think that he Forgot that he could manipulate Cloud.

I understand your point, but if he can't return to life, why did he said "I wont be just a memory"? I don't think that, if Sephiroth can enter to Cloud's mind as you said, would just have told him that, just to torturate him. For example, if what you said its ok, and Aerith can enter Cloud's mind, then she has reasons to do so, since I think she would want to help him. But I don't think that Sephiroth would have a childish attitude and decide to torturate Cloud, by entering in his dreams.

Again, I don't want to look close-minded :no: , but I'm sure that I saw, that Aerith, in the entrance of the Temple of the Ancients, ask Cloud if he had heard "that", he replies that he did, and we could see a very confused Cait Sith because he didn't heard a thing, and I'm sure of this because I had to see that scene twice, because my PSX turned off. But I think that I'll have to replay that part, to post here what they said.
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BTW, being kind of off topic to our disscusion: Do you think that somehow, Cloud is different from the rest, for the special strenght that he has shown to posses. See, even if he wasn't able to enter in SOLDIER, he's the only one who's been able to defeat, the suposed to be the most powerful man in the planet, Sephiroth.

haha, I wouldn't worry about that at all, Clerith-son, I think everyone has long since drifted from the original topic.

You ask a very interesting question, by the way. I would definitely argue that there is something "different" about Cloud that seperates him from other clones/Jenova-injected individuals. Like I mentioned previously, at times Cloud's character is indeed very "weak", but at other times he's surprisingly strong. In regards to him being too "weak-willed" to make it as a SOLDIER, as has been discussed here, my initial impression from the game was that he WASN'T, in actuality, too "weak-willed" to be in SOLDIER, and that Shinra simply wasn't aware of Cloud's full potential because he responded so poorly to the Jenova injections. Many of the various events in the game, which you and Anastar have discussed, were what convinced me of this:

---as you mentioned, the biggie for me was the fact that Cloud seems to be the only one who's able to defeat Sephiroth (both in Nibelheim and at the end of the game)

---Anastar mentioned that Sephiroth was able to manipulate Cloud into the Lifestream after the defeat of Safer Sephiroth - but Cloud is in complete control of himself in the scene, and on top of that is able to defeat Sephiroth by sheer brute force in the subsequent battle scene

---that you pointed out that Cloud was able to stop himself from killing Aerith at the Forgotten City was a good one - an event I feel is often overlooked by people (both those who are curious about Cloud's feelings toward Aerith, as well as those who are curious about how much Sephiroth/Jenova has control of him). As you pointed out, it stands in interesting opposition to the scene with the black materia, where, despite everyone's pleas, Cloud is completely controlled by Sephiroth. But, as the Forgotten City scene demonstrated, there are circumstances where Cloud can resist (perhaps strong emotion? such as his love for Aerith?)

I know there are other examples, but I can't think of them, and I don't want this post to be too cumbersome.

What are your thoughts?

Hmmm... I'm very curious about this. Let us know when you confirm this, I'd really like to know (my memory of the game is very poor, as I'm sure you can tell, lol)

The only time that Cloud was ever able to fight Sephiroth's manipulations was when Sephiroth tried to make Cloud kill Aerith. I've always interpreted that to say something about Cloud's love for Aerith. Even when it meant the fate of the world, Cloud couldn't keep himself from handing the Black Materia to Sephiroth at the Reunion. The others were shouting at Cloud to stop at the Reunion, just like they shouted at him to stop when he almost swung at Aerith. The others shouting didn't stop Cloud from giving the Black Materia to Sephiroth, so did it keep Cloud from swinging at Aerith? Or was Cloud only able to fight Sephiroth's will when he had to do it for the sake of Aerith?

I guess you're misunderstanding what I mean. I think that both Sephiroth and Aerith are spirits. Sephiroth is existing the same as an Unsent in FFX. He hasn't returned to the Planet and refuses to become a memory like Zack. Sephy's not just torturing Cloud - Sephy's about to attack Cloud.

Here's the script from where they arrive at the Temple of Ancients, from the script at FFVII Game Script at RPGamer:

Cloud arrives at the Temple of the Ancients. Aerith stands on the rope bridge before it, then falls to the ground.)
Aerith "This is... the Temple of the Ancients..." "I... I know... I feel it... the knowledge of the Ancients.. floating..." "You could become one with the Planet, but you're stopping it with the strength of will." "For the future? For us?"
(Cloud runs over and kneels by her.)
Cloud "What are you saying? Do you understand?"
(Aerith gets up and runs further into the Temple, stopping to stand on the stairs leading to the top.)
Aerith "You're uneasy... But happy?"
(She looks around at nothing)
Aerith "Because I'm here? I'm sorry... I don't understand."
(She runs back to Cloud. Only a sharp-eyed player will see a black-cloaked figure exit the door at the top of the Temple and slump to the ground.)
Aerith "I want to go inside!"
(They go to the top on the Temple and find the black-cloaked figure. He slowly stands up.)
"Black........ Materia....."
(He falls down. Aerith kneels by him)
Aerith "Look......"
(Tifa checks him.)
Tifa "Number 9. Another man with a tattoo."
(A white glow bathes the area and a translucent body floats skyward. Cloud heads inside the Temple. Inside, they find Tseng slumped against an altar.)
Aerith "Hey! It's Tseng!"
(Tseng slowly gets to his feet.)
Cloud "Tseng? Of the Turks?"
Tseng "Uh... I've been had."
(He slumps back down)
Tseng "It's not the Promised Land... Sephiroth's searching for..."
Cloud "Sephiroth? He's inside!?"
(Tseng raises a hand toward the altar.)
Tseng "Look... for yourself..."
(He lets it fall)
Tseng "Damn..." "Letting Aerith go was the start... of my... bad luck..." "The President... was wrong..."
(Aerith steps forward, hands on her hips)
Aerith "You're wrong." "The Promised Land isn't like what you imagined."
(She faces away from all of them.)
Aerith "And, I'm not going to help." "Either way, there was no way Shinra could have won."
(She goes and stands in a corner.)
Tseng "...pretty harsh. Sounds like something... you'd say."
(Tseng gets up and hands something to Cloud.)
Tseng "The Keystone... Place it... on... the altar..."
(You get the Keystone.)
(Tseng goes and slumps in another corner. Cloud goes over to Aerith, then faces away from her back.)
Cloud "You crying?"
(Aerith shakes her head and turns around)
Aerith "...Tseng's with our enemy, the Turks, but I've known him since we were little..." "There's not a lot of people I can say that about. In fact, there are probably only a handful of people in the world who really know me."
(Cloud and the others go to the altar.)
Cloud "Let's put the Keystone in."
(The camera switches over Cloud's shoulder as we watch him put the Keystone in the altar. It begins to glow a bright blue. A secret elevator opens in the floor and Cloud is lowered to a complex maze.)
Aerith "Words... feelings... So many of them here."
Tifa "What a strange place. Do you think we're welcome here?"
(Aerith runs over to Cloud)
Aerith "...Cloud! I know it's going to be tough, but..." "Don't give up! We can do it!"
(Cloud navigates the maze. There is a little rabbit-like creature, the Lagomorph from Final Fantasy 6, that he chases until he eventually catches it in a small room.)
"nyum... nyum..."
Aerith "Phew! We finally caught up to you." "I'm sorry. You waited for me." "Those are the spirit bodies of the Ancients." "They've been away from their Planet for a long time to protect this Temple." "Over the many years, they've lost the ability to talk." "Actually, they didn't need words from the beginning because there was only one objective for those left in the Temple."
(She goes over to it)
Aerith "Please, talk to me!"
(She shakes her head)
Aerith "No good. I don't understand the rest. Are you afraid...?" "Is it because Sephiroth is in the Temple? Or something else?"
(They leave the room and continue through the maze. They encounter the Lagomorph again, which they follow into a long hallway. Here, boulders with gaps in them roll past, and the player must guide Cloud into the gaps to avoid getting squashed. They reach the end of the room, passing a place in the center where another walkway joins the hallway. This walkway leads to a stone platform with a pool of water, glowing an eerie violet, in the center. Aerith stops to catch her breath.)

I see nothing about Cloud saying that he hears something. Do you need Cait Sith in the party? :unsure:
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Cloud being able to throw Sephiroth into the Lifestream could easily be explained as an adrenaline rush. Adrenaline rushes can be provoked by fear as well as anger, and there have been instances where mothers lifted cars off of children and other "superhuman" feats like that done because of fear or anger causing an adrenaline rush. Cloud had been stabbed by Sephiroth, had seen Zack defeated, Tifa's father killed, and his hometown burned down by Sephiroth. I think that's enough to cause an adrenaline rush caused by fear and/or anger.

*today had been a sad day for me so I'll reply kinda quick*

Today I was with a friend that also played and won FFVII, and he told me that Cloud was able to show that strenght because that's human nature, theory that fitted fine for me. Also he told me that he did noticed that he realized that mostly, he showed that strenght while being with Aerith.

That pretty well, shows us how dear was Aerith for him in the game.

Just for the record Unsent in FFX, became monster when they weren't sent to the Farplane. And, I got all messed up, how can he attack him if he's a spirit. he can't have physicall contact with him. And again, just for the record, even if Aerith touched Cloud in the arm, in Cloud's dream, that wasn't physicall contact, that was... a dream.

Sorry I hadn't played the game in a while, but the phrase that I quoted, is the one that captured my attention, Cloud asked Aerith: "Do you understand?". It would have been normal for him to ask: "What are you listening to?" or Are you talking with the Planet?" or some sort of question like that, but he asked: "Do you understand?", what makes make up the idea that he could he heard what Aerith heard, but unlike Aerith he couldn't understand.
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BTW, today I was able to see all the 4 AC trailers, and, that's the thing that has me sad for the whole day. After watching all those trailers I reached to the conclusion that AC is a movie that most likely I wont like. See my very reason for watching the movie was to see Cloud & Aerith reunited, but after watching those trailers, and the idea that the movie will only last for 70 min, I think that they wont. See this were my impressions of the movie after watching the 4 trailers:
At the beggining we'll see a very depressed and with guilty felt feelings Cloud, the one that has been taking care of some orphans, just because he's a good guy. He returns to Midgar after 2 years, most likely to show that he's alive and to dissapear again. He has Geostigma, but he wants to live, but to live without feeling guilty, he wants to be forgiven. Then the SHM appears, blah, blah, blah... He has this flashbacks of Aerith, and that flower scene dream in wich most likely he'll find forgiveness, or may later on other dream or memory of Aerith (wich most likely will be her final appearance in the movie). Then he has his full strenght again, decides to fight, saves the planet, and then he decides to move on and have a happy life.

I do want to see him with Aerith, as I already said before, my only reason to watch the movie was because I stil hoped that they would be reunited on it, but know I just feel so doubtfull. If anyone of you can show me that I'm wrong, if anyone of you can give me objective facts (and when I say facts I mean FACTS concerning Cloud & Aerith in Advent Children, and not replies like this: "I think...", "In the game..." or "But Cloud and Aerith are FFVII's official couple", etc...), if you can do it, I don't ask you, I beg you to do it, please.

Aahhh yes, Square does seem to enjoy torturing us poor hopeless-romantic Cloud and Aerith fans, doesn't it? I understand your discouragement, I think a lot of us have felt that way at times (I know I have occassionally). And, like you, I am rather worried about the dangerously-short 70 minute time-frame they've settled on.

Unfortunately, for you and everyone else, we don't really have any "facts" to set our minds at ease at this point. All I can say is - Square is supposed to make some new big announcements regarding the Compilation of FF7, Advent Children included, if I'm not mistaken. So, keep your fingers crossed on that... we haven't had any updates for awhile, and it's undoubtedly driving everyone up the wall.

Personally, with how Advent Children is progressing so far, I'm honestly wondering (and this is pretty baseless at this point, so don't quote me on this) if AC itself isn't some sort of "teaser" or "platform experiment" for developing a new FF7 game for PS3. In other words, a 1-hour cliff-hanger to leave us guessing about a sequel (FF7-2??). With AC and all these other "side games" for FF7 being churned out, it seems like Square is trying to build up to some sort of monumental new release.

Anyway, I digress. Take heart, and don't give up hope yet... If things don't go our way, know that you'll have plenty of other people on this forum to mourn with... :P

Hang in there!

Clerith-son:

Awww...there there... :huggle:

Many of us understand exactly how you feel. After viewing the trailers, I was rather sad and disappointed myself, because I really didn't see anything indicating Aeris' revival. Even if Square does want her revived, I'm not sure they'd do it anyway considering the fact that there's such a big split of Clotis and Clerises. First time playing the game, I'd had so much hope that just maybe she would be revived again at the end, but of course I was wrong. Two years later and I still have high hopes that just maybe they'll revive her, but honestly, deep down inside, I kind of get the feeling that if they were going to, they would have done it within the game already.

I don't think anyone of us has facts to comfort you with... :sad:
But I just thought I'd give you some words of encouragement. I mean, what we're seeing so far are just trailers, right? Who knows...there are many many things Square seems to be hiding from us...Aeris' face, for example. Maybe they're planning on surprising us all with something big. There's still plenty of hope, so don't give up on Square yet, okay? Cheer up, and know that you're not alone...

:cleris:

***FFX spoilers***

Well, this isn't FFX, so what's really happening would be slightly different. That's the easiest comparison I can make to it, though. Seymour and Auron both existed and fought in FFX as spirits without turning into monsters. I'm suggesting that something comparable is going on in AC, although it wouldn't be exactly the same as in FFX. I don't think Sephy is anything more than a spirit.
***End FFX Spoilers***

And are we sure that the flower field is a dream? How would Cloud have a dream while riding on Fenrir? He wasn't asleep... he was conscious at the time. So it's not exactly a dream. It's not reality, but it's not exactly a dream, either.

But Aerith is telling them what she's listening to. She speaks out loud the words that she's hearing. And yes, we know that Cloud can hear it without understanding because he did the same in the Forgotten City. There's golden orbs there that Cloud can touch. If you touch them three times, Cloud says something like, "Stream of consciousness.... words of the Ancients... I don't understand".

The words Aerith hears makes me think that she's hearing the guardian spirits of the Temple of Ancients, the same guardians that she speaks to inside the Temple. Aerith: I... I know... I feel it... the knowledge of the Ancients.. floating..." "You could become one with the Planet, but you're stopping it with the strength of will." "For the future? For us?" She identifies the voices she hears as "the knowledge of the Ancients... floating". The guardian spirits of the Temple of Ancients didn't return to the Planet. They stopped it with the strength of their will to protect the Temple. It's the same voices she speaks to inside the Temple.
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As Buhon said, there's just no facts that we can give you about AC because we know very few facts about it. All we've seen are the trailers, and we've read the scripts from the film festivals, and Nomura said in one interview that some of the scenes seen by the public are being revised. He's also said he expects the movie to be the same length as a feature film, so it should be longer than 70 minutes.

Even though I'd love to see Aerith revived, I never expected it to happen in AC. You have to think outside the box. Is Aerith being revived the only way that she and Cloud can be reunited? Cloud is dying of a fatal disease for which there is no cure. He has also vowed to fight to the death, if that's what it takes. There's at least a 50-50 chance that Cloud will die by the end of the movie. I think Square did that on purpose. If Cloud lives, then he may end up with Tifa. If Cloud dies, then he may end up with Aerith. There's no certainty about what will happen to Cloud whatsoever, and I think that's just what Square wants. For more on that, see this thread: Is CloudxAerith Unrealistic (in AC)?

For some other threads about things we think indicate CloudxAerith will happen in AC, see these threads: Cloud's Body Language, Why Not Tifa?, Will Cloud Die?, and Resolving the Love Triangle. Like the others said, don't be discouraged. If Square wants Cloud with Aerith, they'll make it happen one way or another. After all, it shouldn't have been possible for Yuna and Tidus to get back together in the sequel to FFX, either. ;)

Thank you guys for chering me up. I had lost almost every hope of watching Cloud & Aerith ever together. I'm still having doubts, but I'll be fine. I think that I'll save sorrow till the E3, and then I'll take my own conclusions, about watching the movie & Square Enix.

I once read a rumour that SE planed on releasing a FFVII game for the PS3, called FFVII: Eternal Curse, but it was just a rumour. I'm sure that the FFVII history will end with the current sequels.

Well, that was a trailer, and the Fenrir driving scene and the flower scene may take place in different times in the movie, but they showed us this way to confuse us. See if he was day dreaming, shound't he had fallen from the bike, I don't think that you can be dreaming and riding a bike at the same time. I got to the conclusion, because a friend that watched the trailers with me told me that, it is imposible to ride a bike and to be dreaming, that most probably the flower scene takes place in a part of the movie, in wich Cloud is about to give up, and faints, then he dreams this about Aerith, and then he decides to fight, and blah, blah, blah... you know about the rest.

When I first heard of AC, and remembering of Final Fantasy Tactics and Kingdom Hearts, my first impression was that Aerith would be revived, and also after watching one of the trailers, but after watching all the four trailers, I just got dissapointed, because I don't care about anything that's not related to Cloud & Aerith, maybe watching Cloud fighting Sephiroth for a second time would be cool.

But as far as I have seen, the movie centers on the children, and to be honest I don't really care if those brats die or not, watching them is not what I expected of the movie. Yes, the SHM were a great idea for the movie, so as the Geostigma disease, but the story having its center around the children, that I disliked. Also when I saw that the movie theme would be of SURVIVAL, and that Cloud just wanted to be forgiven, I lost almost every hope of watching Cloud die, and reuniting with Aerith in the Lifestream, and if we talk about FFX2, the story of it centered on Yuna wanting to find Tidus, after she saw him on that Sphere. But, you know, I'll follow your advices, andI I'll continue hoping until the movie is released, so lets continue on our previous disscusion, ok?! I apologyze if I made some of you feel sad too, I'm sorry. Again thanx for your support guys!!! :cleris: 4ever!!!

I agree. I don't have hopes for anything but the Compilation of FFVII. I really think it'll be the end of the story.

I've also wondered whether the flower field scene doesn't take place at a different part of the movie, and whether it doesn't happen within a different context. I'm even wondering whether the flower field scene is a memory of Cloud meeting Aerith during the last two years, which would make more sense to me. Square may have simply put these scenes into the context they did just so it would make sense. They're also trying to limit what they show in trailers to scenes shown within the film festivals because they showed a whole 25 minutes worth of the film during the film festivals. They don't want to show us more than that.

Remember that the theme of FFVII was Life, yet Aerith died in it. Death is a part of Life, so Sakaguchi wanted it to be part of the story. The same can be said about Survival. In catastrophes, not everyone survives. Lives are often lost in catastrophes in an effort to keep others alive. The movie may focus on who survives, as well as who doesn't... and why. Cloud may also sacrifice his own life so that the children and/or Planet survive. If Cloud feels that he's going to die anyway, why wouldn't he sacrifice his life for the survival of others? We talked about the theme of Survival in this thread: Survival

I think it's tough for Square to make AC just a movie about CloudxAerith because a large part of the game was left to interpretation. There's too many FFVII fans who think that Cloud loved someone other than Aerith, or even that he loved no one at all. Besides CloudxTifa fans, there's also fans of CloudxYuffie, CloudxSephiroth, CloudxZack, and CloudxBarret. There's also fans of AerithxZack. How can Square make a movie and please all of these fans? I'm afraid they're going to have to leave the movie up to interpretation in order to please all fans. If we see anything conclusive, I think it'll be in KH2 rather than AC. Since Square wants to please all fans, I highly doubt that there will be anything conclusive about Cloudxanybody.

Mmm... Yes, you're right, I had forgoten about it, even if FFVII's theme was life Aerith dies because death is a part of life. And in catstrophes not everyone survives, but what I have seen, is that Cloud wants to be forgiven, because he wants to live, at least that's what I understood in his conversation with Vincent in the Sleeping Forest. Watching at that conversation, I thought that the movie's plot would be about survival, and about to carry on even if life's been hard. Watching that made me thought that he would survive, but what do I know? I'm not the movie developer.

But you have to remember that Cloud isn't expecting to live. When Tifa tells Cloud that he should be fighting Geostigma like Denzel, Cloud tells her, "There's no cure for it". Since he's not expecting to live, then why would he want forgiveness to live? Since he's expecting to die, it seems more likely to me that Cloud is seeking forgiveness so that he can die in peace.