Aeris loves Cloud for who he is. She likes Cloud for the person he is inside. Some people say that she saw the Zack in him. People tend to exagerate and someone actually said that she talked about Zack a lot. She only mentioned Zack three times, and one of the time sonly because it was brought up. A lot of people I know resemble people I knew in my past. I didn't realize it until alter their resemblance, however I like them for their personalities now, not because of who they resemble. Aeris likes Cloud for the person he is. She mentions that he reminds her of Zack. However, she says that they are different.

She knows the difference between Cloud and Zack and she likes Cloud. If she wasn't over Zack then she'd talka bout Zack a lot. She only brings him up twice and she doesn't refer to him by name during the times she brings him up. She remembers him as her first boyfriend. She likes Cloud for the person he is. Aerith likes Cloud for himself. Aeris likes Cloud for his perssnality and how she feels relaxed around him and how he accets her for who he is. Also, if Aeris and Zack were deeply involved, Zack would bring her up in his conversation with Cloud. In their conversation he says that there's someone he can stay with, but the mother lives there. If he was really close with her then he would visit her even if her mother was there and would think of visiting her to visit her, not just to stay there.

I like Zack a lot and think he's a great character, however, Cloud is the one for Aeris. Tifa is the one who seems to like Zack. She wanted a famous guy who was first class. She seemed to like Zack's personality. Tifa was the one who seemed more into the Zack personality and only seemed interested in Cloud after she met Zack. Meanwhile, Aeris was interested in Cloud for the person he was, even though he was different and was different from her first love. Aerith accepted Cloud as the person he is. Tifa seemed to want Zack. Aeris likes Cloud.

If there's one thing I'm sick of hearing C/T fans go on about, it's this. <_<

I can't stand it when fans imply that Aeris was obsessed with Zack, that after five years she still couldn't get over him. The way some people talk about the pairing and the lasting effect on Aeris, you'd think they were married! :lol:

My opinion is that Aeris and Zack were boyfriend and girlfriend, and probably went out for about a year or so (I think this is something Daga worked out in another thread...). It seems to me like it was a happy and fun relationship; a very good kind of romance to have when you're young - the type of relationship you know won't end up in marriage and 2.4 children, but is close and important to you nonetheless. ^_^

I do think that it was a "love" relationship, at least on Aeris' part, even if it was a teenage and naive kind of love. Aeris isn't the type of girl to have any kind of romantic relationship with a guy she doesn't sincerely and deeply care about, and I do agree with C/Ters who claim that the relationship was much more serious and meaningful to Aeris at the time than she claimed, and I do think that his never coming back to her hurt her a great deal. However, I also think that she got over that hurt. She is Aeris, after all. She represents life and the future. She isn't a girl who clings to the past and her memories. It's in her nature to come to terms with things, and learn to peacefully let go of them, and look ahead to better days. I can't imagine someone as genuinely optimistic as Aeris cradling her hurt and refusing to move on for five years. It just doesn't sit with my perception of her character at all, and it really can make my skin crawl to see some people portray her as having waited desperately and rather obsessively for five whole years for anyone who reminded her of The Almighty Zack to come along for her to cling to and make-believe that everything was the way it used to be. She's far too strong, stable, mentally-healthy, emotionally aware and able, and forward-looking for that. Not to mention that obsessing to that degree over someone rather than coming to terms with it is just plain creepy, as well as terribly unhealthy (which isn't the vibe I got from Aeris at all). And I'm (I think) not being biased about this, either - I have far too much respect for Cloud to ever want to see him desperately clinging to some girl just because she strongly reminds him of Aeris.

While I believe Zack will always have a place in Aeris' heart, and will always be special to her, there's nothing that suggests to me personally that she hadn't gotten over him before the game's beginning. I think there was more to that relationship than she implied, but the way Aeris talks about him, it doesn't seem like she's pining for Zack, but that she's accepted, but still believes it was good while it lasted. And of course she's upset when she hears that he's missing. That's a natural and sensitive response, and just because she isn't obsessively devoted to him, it doesn't mean that knowing something bad may have happened to him won't upset her.

The reason why she mentions Zack so often is, in my opinion, quite obvious. Day-in, day-out, she's spending time with a man who looks, talks, gestures and fights like Zack. If you met someone who initially appeared to be a carbon-copy of an ex-lover (who left you under quite mysterious circumstances, to boot), wouldn't you think a bit more than usual about the past? With Cloud strutting around and acting in very Zack-like ways, I find it really natural that she'd think a little more about Zack than usual. Of course being with Cloud makes her nostalgic about Zack, because he initially reminds her so strongly of him, so of course Zack will be in her thoughts more than usual. And especially when she's searching for the real Cloud, and trying to define which elements of him are Zack and not-Zack, and the connection itself is mysterious to her. It's inevitable, I think. But when Aeris reflected on Zack, I always got the impression that they were the reflections of a mature young woman looking back and recalling someone she cared very much about, even if she's moved on since. When Aeris says that her relationship with Zack wasn't serious, I don't think that she's lying to Cloud in order to hide her pain and angst - she's just saying that looking back on her relationship, she doesn't think it was that serious, despite what she might've thought at the time.

So it bugs me when some people try and imply that her character's deepest moments revolve around Zack, or that she was in some way obsessively in love with him. And of course, I don't think that all Aeris loved of Cloud were his Zack-isms. There's so much more to their relationship than that. Most C/A fans will concede to the fact that Aeris' inital attraction was because of his resemblance to Zack (but that's natural, too, after all it's a very mysterious quality in Cloud from her perspective), but it seems clear to me that she quickly realised that they weren't the same at all, and that her deeper and more serious romantic feelings came to revolve around Cloud. She says as much in the game. It's Cloud she's interested in, it's Cloud she cares about. She says she's searching for him - not the shadow of Zack.

...And don't get me started on fanfic representations I've seen of an Aeris/Zack afterlife wedding... <_<

Aeris: Don't worry, Cloud! You can move on and marry Tifa! I don't mind, because very conveniently it turns out that I loved Zack all along and want to be with him now! Plus it makes so much sense because we're both dead! So you don't need to feel guilty! Tee-hee!
Cloud: I'm glad we sorted this out, Aeris.
Zack: I am not a plot-device. Honest.
Hyper-Ballad: :puke:

The idea of Aeris getting together with Zack in the Promised Land (which isn't really possible anyway, because he died before her and his consciousness would've already been absorbed into the Lifestream) just as a means of making everything okay for a Cloud/Tifa get-together really irks me. It completely marginalises Aeris' character and role, just for the sake of tacking-on a "happy ending" for her, as well as making sure she isn't single and never really loved Cloud, 'cause we can't have anything ambiguous threaten Cloud and Tifa's relationship! Nonono! :whistle:

I'm out of steam now. :yawn:

[/rant]

There's another thread about the related topic of whether or not Cloud is Zack HERE. But whether Aerith had gotten over Zack? I thought she made it clear that she had.

In Gongaga, she says two different things to Cloud which indicate that she's moved on:

Aerith "That's all right. It's all in the past now. I was just worried because I heard he's been missing."
Cloud "Missing?"
Aerith "I think it was 5 years ago. He went out on a job, and never came back."
Aerith "He loved women, a real lady's man. He probably found someone else...”

First, she says that her relationship with Zack is all in the past now. Then she says that Zack probably found someone else. Both statements imply that Aerith has moved on from her relationship with Zack, and that she wasn't waiting for him to come back.

For another thing, there was a book published that contains interviews with the creators of FFVII. In that book, called FFVII Dismantled, the creators of the game elaborated on different scenes in FFVII to clarify what had happened in those scenes. One of the scenes they elaborated on was Gongaga. In the elaborated scene, Aerith makes it clear that she knows Cloud is a different person from Zack, and that she likes Cloud more than Zack now. You can see more about the scenes in that book here: Final Fantasy VII Katai Shinsho (FFVII Dismantled)

As to whether or not Aerith knew the real Cloud, it's quite simple. If Aerith didn't know the real Cloud, then neither did Tifa. You see, Tifa says that she loves Cloud in the Mideel Hospital before the Lifestream Event. The Lifestream Event is where the Cloti's say that Cloud became "the real Cloud". So if Tifa fell in love with Cloud before the Lifestream Event, and he wasn't the real Cloud, then Tifa didn't fall in love with the real Cloud, either.

To further that argument, Tifa didn't know Cloud well as a child. She clearly says so during the Lifestream Event:

Tifa "...that's right. We lived next to each other. But I really didn't know you that well."

That means that Tifa was just getting to know Cloud at the beginning of the game, when he supposedly wasn't the real Cloud. Cloud and Tifa only have six non-optional interactions between the Lifestream Event and the Highwind Scene. So if Aerith didn't know the real Cloud, neither did Tifa. ;)

The whole rant was gold, but that was my favorite bit! :lol:

Honestly, Hyper --- I mean Hiiper covered all my points (CURSES!!!) so I don't really have anything left to say ... :unsure:

I basically second what y'all've already said then! ;)

Seii...that gif in your sig..:blink:

Anyways!
Didn't she even SAY "At first it was because you reminded me of him, but things are differenent now"? I mean, those aren't the exact words, but that's what she said.
How can they say that Aeris just loves Cloud for the fact that he thought he was Zack in one flashback? Espeically when she says herself that it's not the case

Thanks Seii! ^_^

Another point I thought I ought to make is that no matter what Zack's relationship with Aeris was like, I think he actually meant much more to Cloud in the end than he did to her... :whistle:

I don't think we can really compare what Zack meant to Cloud with what he meant to Aerith, because they're two entirely different sorts of relationships. To Aerith, he was her first love, a carefree ladies' man (we're not sure whether she ever got to see the more serious, loyal side to him); to Cloud, Zack was most likely the first real friend that he ever had, and the person who went through seven years of being experimented on with him, saved his life, and ultimately died protecting him. I don't think that means that Aerith cared for him any less than Cloud did, just that they both cared for him in different ways.

I agree with the rest of what you said, though, HB! :lol: I may love Zack x Aerith, but I don't believe that she was still pining over him during FFVII. Aerith didn't need to be pining over him for me to believe that she cared about Zack, and was in love with him in the past - I think that was plain to see from what she and other characters said about him. And even though she did love Zack, I certainly don't believe that was what made her fall in love with Cloud. She didn't love Cloud for nothing other than his Zack-isms, she loved everything about him, and she knew that he and Zack were different people, no matter what some fans might claim.

Ya got me there, Madame. :lol:

I do agree with you that you can't really compare how much a man can mean to a teenage girl in love and to a very confused and previously-friendless guy who shares a strong friendship with him before going through five years of utter torture with him. You're right in that they both percieve him differently but to be more specific; what I meant was, that I believe that Zack had a more lasting emotional effect on Cloud than Aeris. Despite Zack being her first romantic love, Aeris has had positive and fulfilling emotional-relationships from other sources in her life, so Zack's impact on her life - while probably very strong for a young girl in love for the first time - seems a little less intense. For Cloud, it was the first glimpse of normality and friendship, and of what being liked, respected and appreciated felt like. And while Aeris moves on despite being upset to hear years later that he's missing, the effect Zack's death had on Cloud was tremendous. Personally, I believe that Zack dramatically changed Cloud's life, and I feel I can't say the same thing about Zack's influence on Aeris' life. So while I agree that the relationships are both very different and that it's unfair to say one person cared more for him (the fault of my bad phrasing), I would still say that Zack meant more to Cloud in the sense that Zack's influence in his life left a greater emotional impact.

You know, maybe this whole Zack thing is just psicological. See Aerith was a girl that always found herself in peril, always having to run to take care of herself, like when she and her mother (Ifalna) had to escape for ShinRa, or each time she had to escape from the Turks. Then she finds this strong appearance guy Zack, wich is a SOLDIER, and she finds someone that might protect her, and this atracted her to Zack, along with Zack's charisma.

One day she finds this other guy, Cloud, that resembles a lot like Zack, and is a SOLDIER too, another good looking guy that can protect her, but unlike Zack, that was a strong willed guy, Aerith found that Cloud, had some serious issues, and that in what will means, he was weak, so that she found out that she had fallen in love with a guy that, was totally different from Zack. But a guy who somehow was a lot like her, in the fact that both felt different from the rest, and so they complimented each other, Aerith wanted someone who protected her, thing that Cloud did, and Cloud wanted to be noticed and important, and he was Aerith's hero.

So, where I'm trying to go, is that her first reason to fall in love with Zack, was the protection that she wanted to feel, and that was all they way she was with Zack, when she found Cloud, at first it were the same reasons that with Zack, but when she get to knew Cloud, she found that for the first time in her life she hadn't only fall in love for a guy that could protect her, but for a guy that she totally liked, and loved. And loved so much, that in the end, it was her the one who gave her life for him.

Yeah, that's what I feel too - I think I probably misinterpreted what you were saying in the previous post, Hyper. :blush: The example you gave about how his death affected them, and how it impacted Cloud is spot on.

That's an interesting idea, Clerith-son. :) I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that Aerith fell for Zack because she felt he could protect her, though. I've always seen Aerith as an independent person, and she's managed to outwit the Turks by herself many times and been amused by their persistence rather than tired of it, so I'm not sure she'd really need Zack's help. Of course, she'd ask for it, and be grateful for it, like she was with Cloud, but she wouldn't be caught by the Turks straight away without Zack or Cloud around. My opinion is that she was attracted to Zack because of his charisma and his outgoing personality - maybe she felt she'd met her match in him because their personalities are quite similar.

No problem! And thank you! ^_^

It really is my fault for being so vague though, so I thought I should clarify what exactly I meant. I'm glad you understand!

Like Madame Batolli, I can't quite agree with how you see Aeris as needing to be protected. To me, Aeris seemed very independant and able to look after herself and doesn't really want to protection, and doesn't need to lean on anyone for emotional support (after all, it's Tifa who needs Cloud to tell her that everything's going to be alright). She can stay calm in a tough situation without needing reassurance, can assess when she does and doesn't need help, and doesn't seem to need Cloud or Zack near her to feel safe. I really don't think she was looking for a guy to protect her, seeing as she's been doing a fine job of it herself all these years. She doesn't want Cloud to put her on a pedestal, and she sees no reason to go into Don Corneo's mansion alone, go on a dangerous journey to the Forgotten Capital by herself, etc. In the Sector Six Church, she knew she was outnumbered and getting away would be difficult so she did the wiser thing and instead of trying to manage alone, she asked for help.

There are many reasons why she could've been attracted to Zack other than him being there to protect her. She said he was a "ladies' man", so I think she must've found him quite charming. We also see in the game that he's very easygoing, extroverted, impatient, optimistic, cocky and funny as well as loyal and courageous, so I think that it was his magnetic larger-than-life personality that drew Aeris to him. I can imagine them sharing some good times and a lot of laughter. But again, Cloud is on the opposite end of the spectrum and no matter how strong her feelings for Zack were, I don't doubt the strength and sincerity of her feelings for Cloud.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling that she needs protection, as if she were weak, honestly I think that Aerith is one of the strongest characters in the game, not only strong in what fight means, but also strong willed. But when I say that she wants protection, I'm telling it that she wants it unconciously, like if she wants that someone is there for her. You don't have to be weak to want somebody to be there for you, or why not to protect you.

Rather than protection, I think what you mean is that Aerith was looking for someone who she could count on... someone who showed sincere interest in her. Zack wasn't really that type. Aerith said herself in Gongaga that Zack was a real ladies' man, and she thought that he had probably found someone else. If Aerith suspected that, I would guess that Aerith didn't feel that Zack's interest in her was very sincere. It's that kind of sincerity that Aerith was looking for, and she found it in Cloud. As she said in the Shinra building jail, "I knew that Cloud would come for me." After telling Cloud in the film festivals that he wasn't to blame, she also said that it was enough that Cloud had come to her. That says to me that she was wanting to find someone she could count on, someone with sincere interest in her.... unlike Zack.

Again, I think I'd dispute this. Aeris doesn't strike me as an emotionally-weak girl who (albeit subconsciously) longs to be protected and watched out for. After all, she's something of a free spirit, and enjoys her independance, so having a man constantly worry over her, treat her like she's made of glass and not let her do anything alone would stifle her. Aeris has a lot of confidence in herself, and is brave and resiliant - I just don't think that she needs that extra sense of security from someone else.

I agree. ^_^ I also think what Aeris wants more than anything isn't too feel safe and protected, but to feel close to someone. On one level, I think she feels close and connected to all life, but at the same time wants that spiritual intimacy, understanding and connectedness with another person. Not because she's afraid of being alone, but simply because feeling a sense of closeness to someone is something that I think she finds very pleasant. I think that emotional intimacy is something she values highly. Aeris displays a natural curiosity and interest in people and their feeling, particularly Cloud. She seems like she'd want someone she can just be herself with, and who won't be afraid of being himself around her. She states in the game that only a handful of people really know her, and appears saddened by this, so I think that finding someone who'll know the real her and like her for herself would be important to her, as well as someonw she'll truly know and understand in return. :cleris:

I can't say I agree with you on your ideas about Zack as a person, Aly. Zack proves himself to be a very friendly, loyal and selfless guy, as we see in Cloud's flashback. If Zack found Aeris important enough to write home to his parents about (and this was around six or seven years prior to the game, according to Zack's parents, so the two must have been dating for at least a year), and kept seeing her despite the fact that his employers are hunting her down, then I believe that his interest in her and his feelings must have been quite sincere at the time. And being a ladies' man doesn't make him a serial cheat. For example, FFIX's Zidane feels very comfortable and relaxed around girls, enjoys being around them and flirting playfully with them, as it's simply part of his nature. But it doesn't mean that he isn't capable of sincere attachment. He's deeply in love with Garnet and would never cheat on her. So despite Zack and Aeris only having a teenage semi-serious relationship, his feelings for her may still have been sincere.

I didn't say that was my opinion of Zack. I said that - from the statements Aerith made about Zack - that she no longer trusted in his sincere affection for her. Regardless of what Zack was really like, it seems that's how Aerith had come to perceive him.

Ahh, I see! Thanks for clearing that up; and I am inclined to agree with you now. Even if she felt that his feelings were sincere at the time, her believing he left her for someone else does clearly show that she now would believe differently. Sorry for misinterpreting what you said! :rolleyes:

Once and again, you got me all wrong. I never said that she needs protection, as if she was made of glass, or as she couldn't protect herself. As I already said I've always thought of Aerith, as one of the strongest characters, so as in what power means and psicologically. What I meant is that she wants someone to be there for her, someone that can back her up, or as Anastar said, someone who she could count on, that's not weakness, that's human nature my friend.

Ah, I see what you mean now. I was a little confused because you repeated the word "protect" at the end of your post, so I thought that what you meant by wanting someone to "be there for her" was wanting someone to depend on and feel safe around, but I see how I was mistaken now. And I do agree with you that wanting someone to count on is human nature rather than weakness. Aeris is one of characters with the most magical and psycholgical strength in the game, like you said. Anyway, thanks for clarifying things for me! ^_^

This really isn't my day for correctly understanding what people mean, isn't it? :lol:

No problem, Hyper. :huggle:

I think the three of you basically hit on the fundamental difference between Aerith and Tifa in regards to their feelings for Cloud - Tifa loves Cloud because she needs to, and Aerith loves him because she wants to. For a guy like Cloud, who has been a "failed hero" and an outcast his whole life, to have someone want to be with him despite his shortcoming and flaws, and with no ulterior motives or "strings" attached is more than he can ask for. Tifa's affections, to a degree, have "strings" attached - she needs the "Zack factor" in Cloud that he's desperately tried to, but never was able, to attain. I think the statement that Tifa, really, was the one who loved the "Zack in Cloud" couldn't be truer.

Sorry to veer slightly off topic, but this discussion put this thought in my mind. In regards to Aerith seeing Zack again - I had always gotten the impression from various dialogues in the game that Aerith's affections for Zack wouldn't have "stood the test of time" anyway - it seems that her patience for Zack's "ladies man cocky swagger" would have been limited. Tifa may have very much wanted Cloud to be "a Zack," but Aerith (whether she realized it at the time or not...) would probably have wanted Zack to be "a Cloud."

I'm not so sure that Tifa needs to love Cloud, but I understand the distinction you're trying to make. It's more that Tifa loves what she wants Cloud to be, whereas Aerith loves what Cloud really is. That's the kind of distinction I was trying to make in this thread: True Love Vs. False Love

Even now, Tifa is making those kinds of demands on Cloud in AC. She's wanting him to fight when he doesn't want to fight. She's wanting him to rescue the children when it may be impossible to do so. She's wanting him to fight against Geostigma when Cloud sees no reason that he should fight it. Again, she's wanting Cloud to do what a Zack would do in the same situation.

Interesting thought, and I agree. I'm not sure that Aerith's feelings for Zack would have stood the test of time, either. She's wanting a Cloud more than she wants a Zack.

You have a very wise and well-observed point here, Buhon. ^_^

While I don't think that Tifa is consciously aware of the "strings" she's attaching, I think that she has developed romantic feelings for him because she believes she needs him in many ways, and he has become her last link to the happiest days of her life (her childhood). Her love seems to spring from her need, and I don't think that this sort of thing factors into Aeris' feelings for Cloud at all. This is why I like that her past and her story isn't linked to his. She's able to manage without Cloud, and spends time with him because she chooses to. :cleris:

I'm sure that Cloud did realized Tifa's feelings for him, and also did knew what she wanted him to be, but we wasn't willing to do it. I'm sure that he didn't told her anything about it, because he might have feared that he could lost Tifa's firnedship. Unlike with Aerith, with whom he felt that he shouldn't be anyone else rather than him, he always felt comfortable when he was with her, since she was never pushing or pressuring him, but supporting him and making him forget about his failures in life.

Unlike with Tifa, wich idolized a false Cloud, with Aerith, he might have felt like a real hero, because Aerith (even if he she knew, he had all those flaws and problems), looked at him as her personal hero (her knight in shinning armor if you want it more poetic), not because he was famous, but for his actions and care towards her, showing that she idolized Cloud just for being him.

I'm sure that no one in Cloud's state, would do it, neither Zack, neither Sephiroth (if he was a good guy, obviously). Cloud is in a very depressive state of mind, in wich for him nothing makes sense, he already saved the world once for Aerith's sake, and nothing good came from it, so what should he do now? It is normal, that Cloud acts this way, but it seems that any of his friends (Tifa included) are trying to understand him, and that is not doing any good to Cloud.

But, yes. This shows that Tifa (and everyone else) still doesn't get the correct picture of who Cloud really is. She still has in her mind, the picture of a great and heroic Cloud, free of flaws or issues. Showing us that trough the game, and that in those 2 years, she never got to know him, while Aerith, in a very short time, get to know him better than anybody else. :cleris:

Perhaps she doesn't need him in the literal sense, but her affections for him are very needy, and come with that sort of baggage. I didn't post this in your thread on True Love vs. False Love because I don't feel that Tifa's love for Cloud is really "false." I just think Tifa's "needs" cause her to have some unrealistic expectations of Cloud, and are totally the worst kinds of pressures Cloud could have to deal with. In that since, Aerith's "conditions" for loving Cloud are VOLUMES healthier than Tifa's conditions, and I think Cloud recognizes that (though perhaps subconsciously) and responds favorably to it, as we all have seen in the game. Though Tifa's love for Cloud is unhealthy (for hersefl and Cloud), that doesn't mean it's necessarily insincere or false. Like Hyper stated elsewhere on this forum, I don't feel that in order for Cloud and Aerith's mutual affections to be realised, Tifa's affections for Cloud have to be denigrated (good call Hyper!). That being said ---

Thanks Hyper! :D I totally agree with everything you say here. I don't think Tifa is aware of her "conditions" either, I think it's coming out subconsciously. Undoubtedly it's a reflection of her deep-seated insecurities stemming from childhood, though it never ocurred to me that Cloud was Tifa's "last connection" to her happier childhood (a very good observation - which, in a way, makes Tifa's story even sadder :cry: oh no!). Your point about Cloud and Aerith NOT having a past together is also very good - and yes, I totally agree that that serves to emphasize even more that Aerith is with Cloud because she chooses to. It's interesting that though Cloud and Tifa are associated with each other's past, and the same can be said of Zack and Aerith - Tifa essentially falls in love with Zack, and Aerith with Cloud. They have a past with one, but gravitate toward the other.

I completely agree, C-S, except I wonder if it wasn't so much that Cloud wasn't willing to be a hero, so much as he just couldn't.

Good call, C-S! Since Aerith didn't expect Cloud to be hero... it actually allowed him to be more of one than he ever was before. Tifa years for Cloud to be her hero, but he never really does end up saving her from anything during the game, except maybe in the Crater during the final FMV. The big rescue of Tifa gets passed on to Barrett - who I am pretty positive had a thing for Tifa - go BarretXTifa (Barfa??)! Anyway, Aerith never expects Cloud to really be a hero, yet he protects her in the church and leads the way to her rescue from the Shinra mansion.

Man, I love that game... despite how depressing it is. Haha

I would agree with that.

Then perhaps you didn't read it, because the point of that thread is that the foundations of Tifa's love for Cloud are false for the very reasons that you went on to say here:

But can we really call it a true love when the foundation of it is unhealthy? Perhaps "false" wasn't the best descriptive adjective for it, but it's all I could think of that would fit in the topic title. :lol: :P The thread was actually about how Aerith's love for Cloud was different than Tifa's love for Cloud. I was also trying to contrast it to the foundations of true love. If the foundations of Tifa's love for Cloud are so unhealthy, then I wouldn't call it a true love.

The other point I was trying to make in that thread was that I wondered whether the whole point of the Love Triangle was actually to show different kinds of love, as well as to show what kind of love is the most meaningful.

But we share the same opinion about Tifa's affections for Cloud... so if you felt that I was "denigrating" Tifa's affection for Cloud in that thread, then it looks like you're doing it, too. :P

Aly - let me start by saying, in retrospect, my comments (as posted above) sounded a tad hostile, which was totally, completely unintended. I hope you didn't feel it was intended to be so or take it personally, and if you (or anyone else) took them as such, I apologize wholeheartedly. I was just absorbed in the debate... :ermm: :gift:

I hadn't read through the True Love vs. False Love thread in some time, so I didn't remember it correctly. :blush: But perhaps it was the term "false" that threw me off as to what you were getting at exactly.

And you're right, we do have the same basic opinions about Tifa and Cloud's feelings for each other. I think the big difference is that you are far less forgiving of Tifa than I am. :lol: :P In that sense, I feel that not everything about Tifa's feeling for Cloud was necessarily based on unhealthy or false pretenses. I think Tifa's feelings for Cloud are ultimately genuine, and that some, but not all, of the foundations for it are misguided... The aspects of her feelings that are misguided, however, are one's that are particularly fatal to the possibility of her and Cloud ever having a healthy relationship. But, naturally, I cannot prove that from the game, other than maybe the fact that she still expresses feeling for him after the Lifestream event. I think "denigrate" was too strong a word in this context... anyway, I'll take a look at the thread again.


Anyway, I've veered this topic way off course...

No worries, my friend and fellow Team Eternity member!! :huggle:

:lol: I admit that I don't cut Tifa many breaks, probably because I think too many people cut her too many breaks as it is. :lol: I try to treat her like I would any other character, without the influences of pro- OR anti- fandom. No, I don't love Tifa... but I don't hate her, either. There's a huge difference between thinking that Tifa's awesome and thinking that she's a stupid worthless slut. Can't someone be in between those extremes? If anything, I think that helps to look at her more objectively.

It's not that I'm suggesting that Tifa doesn't really love Cloud. Her feelings are genuine, in that she isn't trying to deceive Cloud. I'm just looking at why she loves him - the foundations of her love for him. In that sense, we agree that the foundations of her love for Cloud are both misguided and unhealthy. I don't think she loves Cloud for who he really is, but for what she wants Cloud to be. From what we've seen in AC, I think there's still evidence of it.

BTW, that's not at all unusual for women to do. ;)

We both have! :lol: What were we talking about? :blush:

I'm not saying that he didn't willed to be a hero, but the fact is that he didn't wanted that, as much as he thought, his primarily reason for entering SOLDIER was to ease some of his issues, like never wanting to watch any other person getting hurted in front of him, without doing anything, and also entered SOLDIER, so that people would notice him if he became famous. If you see his primarily reasons, you'll see that SOLDIER was something that he (Cloud) forced him to do to ease all those issues. Where I'm trying to go, is that if he hadn't got all those issues, he might have never thought of joining SOLDIER.

I found this aricle in IGN, it's an Interview with Mr. Kitase, it's a very old interview, but read the last paragraph.

I think that Tifa's feelings towards Cloud are genuine, she does really love him, she has proved it, by being with him in the game. The fact is that her love is not a false love, the fact is that she loves a false Cloud. She has always thought of him as the powerful, flawless, and perfect 1st rank SOLDIER, wich Cloud's not. We can say that her love is true, but its towards a fantasy.

Thank you! :D

Good observation, Clerith-son! I agree with you that while Tifa seems to love Cloud for what he could be and what he could do for her, Aeris loves Cloud for what he actually is and what he does do for her during the time they know each other. Her feelings are based on his reality, not on his potential, which I think actually enables him to be more heroic in the long run.

I completey agree, Buhon. You have an excellent point here. ^_^

About my opinion on the sincerity of Tifa's feelings...I think my opinion is closer to Buhon's on this. While the foundations of her feelings are what I'd consider unhealthy, and that the relationship itself is too focused on need and dependence, I wouldn't say that it affects the sincerity of her feelings. Her feelings are a source of pain, concern, fear and confusion but also a source of courage towards the game's conclusion. Her feelings lead to make some very bad decisions but they also make her feel full remorse for that, and make her able and willing to make amends and help Cloud however she can. But I agree with Anastar that despite these feelings, their driving force, the why, is a very important factor, and in my opinion, the most unhealthy one.

Again, I couldn't agree more.

::waves BarretxTifa flag::

I find Tifa an extremely interesting character whose appeal happens to be enhanced by her flaws, mistakes and humanity, and I tend to be more forgiving of her too! :rolleyes: Personally, I think that both sides of the fandom have treated Tifa badly, in a way. I don't like seeing some CxA and/or Anti-Tifa fans misunderstand her intentions, judge her wholly by her flaws and let one misguided action overshadow all the good she does in the game, and the fact that she's a lovely girl at heart. But on the other side of things, it's just as bad to see CloTi and pro-Tifa fanatics turn her into some sort of perfect woman, and proceed to ignore all her flaws, or warp them into something tragic and beautiful. Both those extremes bug me, so I tend to stick in the middle, but leaning towards a positive appreciation of her character. ^_^

Well, the original topic concerns Aeris' feelings for Zack and how/if they colour her feelings for Cloud. Which is something I can't stand seeing people use in LTD's...how many times does something have to be disproved before the opposition will drop it? <_<

*sigh* I never said that Tifa's love for Cloud was insincere or not genuine. What I said was the foundations of her love for Cloud were a "false" love when contrasted with "true" love because she doesn't love Cloud for who he really is.

However, I do think the origins of Tifa's love for Cloud may be seen as insincere. She didn't get interested in Cloud until he said he intended to join SOLDIER. Then she looked in the newspapers for something about him, which I see as similar to some girl looking in a fan magazine for Brad Pitt. Tifa hardly knew Cloud at that point, yet she's daydreaming about Cloud as a SOLDIER and falling for that daydream. That's hardly a sincere or genuine interest in him. What her feelings for him became later may be genuine, but the origins of her interest in him were certainly not.

You're allowed to like Tifa, but I'm also allowed to think she's overrated. I'm actually more against the pro-Tifa fandom that distorts her personality into something she's not than I am against Tifa herself. Tifa's okay, but I don't like her enough to join fanclubs in appreciation of her or wave Tifa banners around. I find some of her flaws and faults quite annoying. At the same time, I don't think she has bad intentions, nor do I think she's a mean, evil wench who's plotting against Cloud, either. Why is someone at fault if they don't adore Tifa and think she has an awesome personality? Why am I feeling pressured to think Tifa's terrific? After all, this isn't a Tifa forum.

I think that's very well said, Clerith-son. I agree that it was the issues about his weakness that motivated him to join SOLDIER more than anything else.

I'm sure I pointed out that I'd taken that into account in that post. I agreed with you that the foundations of her feelings are unhealthy and despite whatever I think of the sincerity of her current feelings; the foundations are an important factor.

Of course you're allowed to think she's overrated! When did I say you weren't? :lol:

I feel like we're both misunderstanding each other...in my previous post, I wasn't making an argument or trying to "correct" your interpretation of Tifa's character - I was just stating what I thought of her. Buhon eluded to his opinion on Tifa. You then said in some detail what you thought of her. Then I did the same thing. We were all giving opinions on Tifa. I just shared my personal opinion on Tifa. I wasn't trying to challenge your opinion or say that it's somehow wrong. You're perfectly right to have some negative views on her, or any character, and I don't think that because you don't worship her that automatically makes you a hater who thinks she's a whore. :no: I don't think that Tifa is perfect or that's she's the best thing since sliced bread - there are many FF characters out there I favour over her - I just like her a lot, and find her character interesting, and felt like sharing that opinion. I wasn't trying to force it on you. And if I've somehow made you feel pressured to think that Tifa's terrific, then I'm very sorry for that, because I didn't mean to. :sad: It wasn't my intention to impose myself on anyone; just to say what I and I alone thought of her. :gift:

Now I've been thinking that she might have fallen for him, because of pitty. See, he tried to help her, but beacaus eof it, he got balmed for Tifa's injuries. Then he came with the SOLDIER idea, and she developed a picture of Cloud in her head, wich was the Cloud that she felt in love with, but unfortunately that was not the real Cloud, but the Cloud that she had in her head, was more like Zack. Unlike Aerith, she never get to knew the real Cloud, she always seemed, rather to stay with her fanatsy Cloud, and try to transform him the what she thought, but she never could.

BTW, we always say that Aerith, was the one who saw Cloud's weakness and flaws, and that even so she loved him. But, could it have been possible that she get to knew his real strenght, as well? Remember, that she also looked at him, as her hero, but unlike Tifa, she saw the real hero in Cloud, not Tifa's SuperCloud.

I agree with you, Aly. she never paid him attention, before he dediced to enter SOLDIER. Also she loved a false Cloud, since she barely knew Cloud. She might have really fallen for him in the game, but not at that time.

I'm going to second what Hyper said, since I feel like I kinda started the whole thing. I apologize if, in our discussions, I made you feel like you were being backed into a corner or attacked, Aly. I think I'm the culprit, since my initial response to your reference to the True Love vs. False Love thread made it sound like I was accusing you of character assassination of Tifa (which I wasn't, it was just poorly worded on my part), and thus made Tifa's character as a whole a direct issue about the ultimate unhealthiness of her affections for Cloud. This, in turn, caused our personal feelings about Tifa's character to leek into the discussion. Yes, you are absolutely, completely, utterly entitled to your opinion, and to have it be respected (which it is!). Please don't feel pressured at all to change it for someone else! :no: (and yes, I think Tifa is overrated at times too :lol: )

I think the three of us essentially have the same beliefs about the nature of the Love Triangle, and what we're arguing now about Tifa's motivations is, essentially, hair-splitting... which means that there's a big chance for misunderstanding and frusteration. Aly, I think you're emphasizing the unhealthy aspects of Tifa's affections for Cloud as they are directly demonstrated in the game, while Hyper and I are emphasizing other possible factors for her feelings that are not readily apparent, or even apparent at all, in the game (things that can be speculated on). So we're talking apples and oranges to an extent too.

I hope that clears everything up... Deep breath and group hug, everyone!

Heheh, I think that's true for a lot of people, male and female.

Haha, thanks for the link C-S. I had a good laugh with the comment (and I totally agree with what they said, too!)


Hmmm... ok, Zack factor. Um... what is everyone's thoughts on this statement I made earlier on the thread: "It's interesting that though Cloud and Tifa are associated with each other's past, and the same can be said of Zack and Aerith - Tifa essentially falls in love with Zack, and Aerith with Cloud. They have a past with one, but gravitate toward the other"?

Good idea, Buhon. I'm sorry for mouthing off, Buhon and Hyper. :huggle: Now why don't we get back to the discussion? :rolleyes:

I agree that Tifa is looking for someone more like Zack, whereas Aerith falls in love with what Cloud really is. The difference in the part about their pasts is that Aerith really did get to know Cloud, whereas Tifa didn't really get to know Zack.

I agree, Clerith-son. The Cloti's are always saying that Aerith didn't get to know the real Cloud, but I think Aerith got to know him better than Tifa. I think Tifa's still hanging on to a false image of Cloud and expecting more from him than he wants to give. Even now in AC, we see Tifa asking Cloud to fight Geostigma when he doesn't want to - because that's the kind of man she wants Cloud to be. She's expecting him to rescue the children when it may be impossible. I find it interesting that he's failing Tifa again, too. The magazines said that when he finds her in the Church, Tifa says, "You're late". The insinuation is that if he didn't get there in time to save her from Loz.

And you make an interesting point that Tifa may have fell for him out of "pity". The question is, does Tifa pity Cloud now?

That's the way I see it, too. Did you know that Tifa and Aerith have an equivalent amount of verbal interaction with Cloud during the game? Since Tifa didn't know Cloud before the game, doesn't that mean that Aerith and Tifa had an equal amount of time to get to know Cloud? The other part of it is that we don't know how much time Cloud has spent with Tifa during the last two years. It's very possible that Tifa may not know Cloud much better than she got to know him during the game. The major difference is how well each of the girls understands Cloud, and it seems to me that Aerith understands him a whole lot better than Tifa.

Yes, when you realize it, they were with two different people, and with the person they didn't really loved, they were all mixed up. While Tifa wanted a man like Zack, wich Aerith had, Aerith wnated a man like Cloud, wich Tifa knew. It's a very interesting point, funny when you put it in contrast.

Maybe he told him he was late, because she might have been trying to guard something tha Cloud had there (JENOVA's head?), but the SHM (Loz to be more especific) beat the hell out of her, stole it, and by the time Cloud reached the church, they were already gone, then Tifa told him, he was late. Or what you said was something that was especifically explained in the magazine? (you know the you're late, you didn't came to save me thing)

No, I hadn't noticed it, that's quite interesting. And yes, in the game timeline, both girls had and equal amount of time to get to know him, but while Tifa stood in less than zero (since she always had, and never sttoped in having a wrong picture of Cloud), Aerith got to totally know him better than abyone else, even better than his mother, I think. That takes me to the conclusion, that if in the whole time they were friends and Tifa never got to know the real Cloud, she will never be able to do it, she'll always expect of him to be the SuperCloud she had in her head.

:lol: yes, I agree with that. If she never really knew Cloud and one day at the well was supposed to make up that "lost childhood", then I'm probably missing something from those Clotis. :lol: Though I do think that Tifa expected Cloud to be something like Zack, being in Soldier, I don't think that Aeris cared if Zack was in Soldier or not. I mean, it was never a factor to her because she let Cloud be who he was. I think its the same way with Zack. He just didn't want to stayed in his hometown anymore and decided to do something big...maybe to have an adventure or something. Though Cloud and Zack are two differnt people, maybe both of them just wanted to eliminate a weakness that each other had. Cloud wanted to get stronger while Zack didn't want to be kept like a caged bird.

And now it probably doesn't make sense because I didn't read everyone's else response.... :lol:

Sweet! Yes, lets!

Well, right, that's true. I was thinking more in the general or symbolic sense, at least.

I agree with you about the issue of "pity" C-S. I think that's a good point. No doubt a "pity" factor has always had a hand in Tifa's feelings for Cloud, and I have no doubt that Tifa still feels a sense of "pity" for Cloud in AC as well. That may be as much of a factor in her "nagging" as is her desire for him to be "heroic." Some people do strange things in an attempt to "help" or "reach out" to other people - this may be such a case (wasn't something similar to this discussed in another thread? About Tifa's motivation for nagging Cloud? I swear there was...).

Another great point, C-S. Aerith saw the "true heroism" in Cloud, while Tifa yearned for a "superhuman hero" that Cloud could never be. That's an excellent insight! And I think it totally ties in to what you and Aly were saying about Aerith having a much better insight into Cloud's character than Tifa. I would dare to say that for much of the game, Aerith knew Cloud better than Cloud knew himself. For me, it puts new meaning into Aerith's statement "Cloud... I'm searching for you."

Nope, you made perfect sense to me, aerith. You bring up a very interesting observation - the relationship between Cloud and Zack (not in the romantic sense, obviously... though if you WANT to think of it that way, by all means, go for it :lol: ). This is, after all a thread on the "Big Zack Factor"... and he was a factor for both Cloud AND Aerith.

You make a good point, Cloud and Zack seem to have had a friendship based on mutual support. Zack seemd to value Cloud as someone to "take under his wing"... while Cloud seemed to value Zack as a sort of mentor. It struck me almost as a sort of older/younger brother sort of relationship... Thoughts?

I think there's an element of pity, too, although I doubt that Tifa is conscious of it. She's probably more aware of being disappointed in Cloud rather than pitying him.

You're right that Zack was an influence on both Cloud AND Aerith. Cloud has been remembering Zack in AC as well as Aerith. However, Cloud seems able to actually communicate with Aerith, whereas he only has memories of Zack. (I think that distinction will play a part in what happens in AC, and I think it relates to what Sephy said about, "I won't become a memory") At any rate, Zack is one of two people that Cloud calls a friend in FFVII. (Who knows who the other one is? :rolleyes:) I think he was Cloud's first friend, actually, and possibly his best friend. They were in captivity together for five years, and it's possible that they were cell-mates. Cloud talked about stories that he'd heard from his friend Zack about his life as a SOLDIER. Zack probably taught Cloud some things, but it's obvious that they shared things, too, if Zack told him about his past as a SOLDIER. Zack helped Cloud escape from Nibelheim, but Zack also invited Cloud to be a mercenary with him. Zack also told Cloud to kill Sephiroth in the Mt. Nibel reactor, which shows that Zack saw Cloud as capable of doing that. Zack and Cloud also planned their escape from the lab together. So I think Zack saw Cloud as being more capable than most people assume. ;)

One thing has always confused me about Cloud's remembrance of himself as Zack during the Nibelheim incident. Cloud said that he left Nibelheim "looking for glory". Well, Cloud was actually the true hero of the Nibelheim incident. It was Cloud who threw Sephiroth into the Lifestream. Zack was not a hero during the Nibelheim incident. Zack was defeated by Sephiroth. So why would a young man who left his hometown looking for glory forget that he was the hero, and remember himself as one who got defeated? :unsure: Doesn't make sense.

I agree with you and Buhon about Aerith loving Cloud despite his weaknesses and flaws, but you also ask whether Aerith saw Cloud's strength. She obviously saw his physical strength, since she asked him to be her bodyguard, but I think she saw emotional strength in him, too. Why else would she say that Cloud should be the leader of the group as they left Midgar? Why else would Aerith know that Cloud would come for her when she got captured by the Shinra? That shows that Aerith knew Cloud to be dependable, responsible, reliable, and trustworthy. She saw him as a good leader, which means that she saw him as someone who could motivate the others and make good decisions. When they got to the Gold Saucer, Aerith asks Cloud to visit the Park with her, so she also saw Cloud as someone she could have fun with. Yes, I think she saw emotional strengths in Cloud, as well.

Hmm... I'm inclined to agree, though I wonder if Tifa is really aware of either? She doesn't strike me as a character who has a high level of "emotional intelligence." (actually, I think that's a pretty accurate assessment of Tifa overall)

Very good point, Aly, and I totally agree. I think Zack recognized an "inner strength" in Cloud in a similar kind of way Aerith did, as you mentioned as well.

I think it makes sense when you consider the confusion and self-esteem issues Cloud has. I think Cloud held Zack in such high regard, and himself in such low regard, that he sort-of "combinded" his memory of himself with Zack in that instance. I dunno, this is a very psychological question :unsure: I Think his shame of not being in SOLDIER like Zack overrode any self-realization of heroism on his part at Nibelheim (nor do I think it would ever occur to Cloud, if he were doing something "heroic", that it was, in fact, "heroic.") Based on his relationship with Zack and Aerith (as we just discussed), and various other scenes throughout the game (Nibelheim, storming the Shinra tower, saving Jessie from the reactor, saving the little girl (I forget her name!) in the fishing village underneath Junon, etc.), I think one of the (many, many) themes in FF7 centers around the idea that Cloud may in fact be more of a hero than he (or Tifa, for that matter) thinks that he is... I think, of all the companions, Aerith is the only one who is the most aware of this fact.

Every single point of what you just said, is perfect. He might have though of Zack of such a role model, that he ended up thinking that he was zack, also he might thought, that what he did was something that Zack might have done, and he got all mixed. I don't think that Zack saw Cloud's inner strenght as Aerith did, but I'm sure he really trusted him, to let him get in charge of Sephiroth. I think that the only one that saw the true hero withinCloud, over his bunch of flaws, was Aerith, and no one else. :cleris: