So, after completing the game and bawling my eyes out something hit me:

The Angeal and Zack handgrab.

For Cleris shippers the almost handgrab/handgrab in FFVII and AC are very important moments. Do you think the Angeal and Zack hand grab was intentional to...stick out? In other words: Grab our attention. Handgrabbing seems to be rather...important in the series. It was obvious that Angeal was leading Zack into the lifestream...But how many of you instantly became Angeal/Zack shippers? How many of you wondered if that made the Cleris grab more friend-like and less romantic? How many of you just went: "Oh...Okay...I miss Zack...A lot." like I did?

I guess the two hand grabs have two different meanings-- but since it's Squeenix and they like to throw subliminal hints and messages out every which way it got me wondering. I just want to hear everyones oppinions and views about this. :D It got me curious.

As for me...

I'm still trying to figure out Genesis' babble thoughout the whole game before I figure out anything else! :P

Cleris for life still. :D <3 :cleris: Sorry if this was already posted. I beat a couple weeks ago but it just hit me that I hadn't asked yet!

The A/Z hand grab didn't stick out to me. I was more focused on the fact that Zack was dying and I was watching it in great graphics. I just loved how Zack got to be with Angeal again, as he'd obviously missed him very much throughout the game and was happy to go with him. :fish:

The Cleris hand reach and the CC one seem very different to me. :lol:

My opinion on this:

Symbolically speaking, this scene follows anime's traditional symbolism.. In many animes, the hands grab(well, as well as other symbolisms) varies from animes to animes, depends on how the storyline goes, or how the relationship of characters shown..

IMO, hands grab especially when covered with bright light, is what we called reaching for your light.. As we already know, Aerith IS Cloud's light.. And that scene of Angeal and Zack suggested the same..
This is when a character was in one situation that need a guidance or help, came their light to guide or help him/her..

How Angeal is Zack's light? Well.. Angeal is a really important figure in Zack's life that helped him become who he is.. In CC, we've showed with how Angeal plays a very important part of Zack's dream to become a hero.. Angeal tells Zack to hold onto his dreams and honor, and he kept every Angeal's word, in his mind throughout the entire game..

Sorry for being a symbolism whore but it is me anyway.. Lolz

Me too! I was so sad to lose Zack, but so happy he gained back Angeal. :) It was a bittersweet moment. Thanks for commenting, Kuraudo.

You found the missing words/meaning my brain was trying to form, Sha. That makes complete and total sense to me. Thank you! :D And don't apologize for being a....symbolic person (LOL). The symbolism is what I was trying to figure out! Thanks again!

SLASH.

Uh, I mean, foreshadowing. In both OCG and AC we have instances of a dead character reaching out to a living person important to them (Cloud and Aerith, obviously,) and Crisis Core is mirroring this. Honestly, who saw Angeal reach down to Zack at the beginning of the game, intentional zoom and all, and didn't think o shi--he's gonna die?

Well actually, i thought the hand grab in CC was meant to be like the hand thing Kadaj made to Aerith. Of course, aerith's hand wasn't actually showing with Kadaj, but he was in dying, and i thought it was like a guiding hand.

I also think it mirrors the Aerith/Kadaj scene more so than the Cleris one. Like you guys said, it's occuring between a dead person and one who's pretty much on the brink of death. Cloud's case was a little different.

Zack has always admired Angeal and looks up to him for guidance. The whole hand-reach scene between the two, to me, is saying that that relationship is still going strong. Once again, Angeal is helping guide Zack...but this time, to where he needs to be.

Well, yeah...and that's the biggest difference between this scene and the Cleris one. I sure wasn't thinking that Cloud was about to die when he tried taking Aerith's hand. :P

Arguably, in the original hand reach scene, yes Cloud was on the brink of death. He was trapped somewhere inside his own mind and the Lifestream, rocks were falling[s], everyone dies[/i] and so he would have been a goner if not for Aerith being like HEY CLOUD. CLOUD. THE EXIT'S OVER HERE.

I meant Angeal, considering he's the one doing the reaching. Of course everyone knew Zack was going to die.

I don't see much correlation between this and the Kadaj/Aerith "hand reach," the fact that the Cloud/Aerith and Zack/Angeal ones look exactly the same notwithstanding; simply because Kadaj and Aerith didn't know each other, and Kadaj was clearly deluded at the time. As people, they have no bonds or meaning to one other, other than a vague "mother" concept.

well at first I took it like Zack loved Angeal. but that was only because I didn't play the game and I recently read the scripts and found out they were more like brothers or father and son.

But about the CxA hand scene.It still is romantic to me ,because they're both completely different in all sorts of ways.
forgive me for rambling but this is how I got to do it.

Aerith and Clouds hand scene ,for me, was more like Aerith guiding Cloud to defeat Bahamut.And to lead him home (to the promise land) .Yes I know Cloud didn't leave with Aerith physically ,but I take it like his spirit did ,ya know?

And with Zack ,when he and Angeal grabbed each others hands,I took it like Angeal was leading him home to the promised land.

The hand scenes don't particularly mean "true love" but it just shows me how strong of a bond they have with eachother.whether it's love or friendship.
The reason I think the CxA hand sceen is romantic and the ZxA hand scene isn't ,is because it was said that Aerith lives in Cloud and in AC
Clouds whole facial expression changes to this expression that looks like his breath was just taken away when he sees Aerith.Compared to Zacks stone stair when he sees Angeal.

Bottom line,I don't see Zack and Angeals hand scene ruining anything for Cleris.
The stories are different and the meanings are different.
I hope I made sense lol

Cloud could have died.
Zack was already dying. Kadaj was already dying.
I still think Cloud's case was a little different. *shrugs*

If we're talking about looks, yeah, there are similarities...but if we're talking about meaning, I personally don't see it. IMO, Aerith has something of a bond with all living things, including Kadaj, since she's the "mother" or guardian of the planet...one who looks after all living things...the "mother" concept you mentioned. I still think the Zack/Angeal scene is closer to the Aerith/Kadaj one in meaning. The two people reaching for Zack and Kadaj are people they admire(teacher and "mother") who are guiding them into the lifestream, the place where they now belong.

Again, Cloud was in danger...but he wasn't dying and Aerith wasn't trying to lead him into the lifestream. Aerith's appearance to him was also the planet's answer/hint in response to his wish to meet her again...so yeah, I don't think it's quite like the Zack/Angeal one. I know I'm rambling, but my general opinion is that the two scene are very different in meaning.

A hand reach scene does not prove love nor does it prove friendship. Every case is different. It was already clear to me that Cloud and Aerith have romantic feelings for one another, so a hand reach scene between them along with the idea of the two wanting to meet one another again would simply reinforce my belief. Likewise, the Zack/Angeal hand reach is going to reinforce whatever your belief is in regards to their relationship. I see their relationship as something strictly platonic...so no, I don't view their hand reach as being anything similar to the Cloud and Aerith one in meaning.

Well, technically Kadaj is a manifestation of Sephiroth's will, materialised via Jenova cells, so "dying" probably isn't the best word. : | Meaning aside, I was simply stating that the Zack/Angeal hand-reach scene is intentionally mirroring the Cloud/Aerith one; and that any similarities between the Kadaj/Aerith one probably weren't purposely done.

Hmm...well, Aerith is still leading him into the lifestream, a place where dead people go. Guess I'm not sure what else to call it then, if not "dying".

Not sure I understand what you mean by "intentionally mirroring". I don't quite see it that way due to what I've explained above...but yeah, we're each allowed our own opinions...so...I'm not going to argue. :P

EDIT:
I didn't get a chance to read your post until just now, AerithGainsborough, but I think some of the things I said are pretty much what you already said. *slaps self*

Disintegrating? Dissolving? I’m meeeeeelting.

Visually.

...going to a place where dead people go.
Dying. Disintegrating. Dissolving. I don't care what you wanna call it.

O, visually...
Yeah, a lot of hand reach look the same. ^^

IMO, those three are so different, visually or in meanings.

**Visually:

Kadaj is a "ramnant" of Sephiroth, he and the other two were produced merely by J. cells....I won't call them normal human beings (..erm, biologically?) if you ask me. Oh, and I don't think he actually saw Aerith while he reached out his hand; he even "dissolved" before he seemed to be lifted. So I won't include that in hand-reach discussions at the first place.

Cloud is in a "spiritual form" when the hand-reach scene happened(FF7); according to MoTP:

So again, he was not in a normal state, physically. In AC, he seems to contact Aerith at that scene, but as a spiritual form, Aerith "dissolved" soon after Cloud crabbed her hand.

As for Zack, he was in a normal form as a human being who's dying before that scene. After he took Angeal's hand, Angeal did not "dissolve"(Cliky) like Aerith did in AC. And although Zack's body was gone after the scene, we don't know if he "dissolved" like the way Kadaj did.

**In meaning:

Kadaj was leading back to Lifestream, no matter he's "dying" or not (Aerith was saying "it's ok, you don't have to hang'n there," and in Japanese, she said "Ka-Ei-Lo" which means "let's get back").

In Cloud's case, Aerith's hand was to guide him to safety (FF7). It is confirmed in Ultimania (UO and 10th Anni-U), that Aerith was shown to guide him back to reality so as to save his life, and to offer him the strenght to defeat the enemy. We can also find the backup from MoTP:

So Cloud could have died, becuz of dangerous circumstance, not becuz he was fatally wounded. It's Nomura's idea to add the hand-reach scene in AC (I forget the source, could be in magazine interview), IMO, there should be some profound meaning in it, not simply a sort of "example" for the following similar scene in CC.

Angeal is important to Zack, so he was shown to guide him back to where he belongs, which means the Lifetream. If this scene was to set to mirror C/A's in AC, that would only to present that Aerith is also an important someone to Cloud. Other than that, I don't see any parallel.



Like HD said, there is no hinted romance in C/A's hand-reach scene, but it IS special if you take scenario into consideration. She showed her good feelings to Cloud in Lifestream (MoTP) while Cloud was pleading for her guidance in AC. If they didn't have the desire to see "someone special to him/her" but merely an important guy to each other, why not Zack gave Cloud the last push in Bahamut's fight? Since he can appear in front of Cloud like what he did in the ending?



....just my two cents. :blush:

Cloud tries to take Aerith's hand twice.

Once in FF7, and once in AC.

In instance one, he was in the middle of falling rock after having just given Sephiroth a beatdown. In this case, though, he doesn't actually touch Aerith's hand, he just reaches for it. The connection isn't there, because (As we'll see in AC) Cloud's guilt about her is up the wazoo, thereby creating a space Aerith can't reach through yet.

By AC, though, most of his guilt is gone by the time he goes flying through MegaFlare, and there, deep in Bahamut's ultimate attack, she takes his hand for real, and possibly even conveys actual power (Fury Brand) to Cloud.

The contrast shows that Cloud is getting Closer, not further away, from Aerith over time. The first time he missed. The second time he got it.

I like that idea :3
Maybe that's why Nomura made Cloud visit the flower field.
To show he's actually close to Aerith now (??)

I haven't played CC but I did see the video where the hand reach scene occured between some unknown hand and Zack, I know it couldn't have been Cloud because well that would be stupid, he isn't dead he's too busy carrying that heavy sword somehwere in nowhere. Now I know who it is...from reading.

And after seeing that hand reach scene I was thinking..."umm another hand reach scene." Sooo...yeah that's all I got.

fabuloussss another hand reach collection.....

There is a (key) difference between the two hand reach scenes.

Angeal is pulling Zack towards death/the Promise Land, whereas Aerith is pulling Cloud towards safety or life. Both could symbolize light, I guess, but one more than the other.

There's my two cents.

I usually dont like yaoi couples, but this one is too obvious.Plus the Hand Grab proved it for me,and yeah now im a Angeal/Zack Shipper Kinda Just a whee bit :unsure: But We all Know Zack Really loves Cissnei :lol:
I dont think nomura would make zack Love a man. Didnt it say somewhere He was a "Ladies-Man" Or somthing like that?

What IS the Promised Land? Also, why would Angeal be pulling Zack there? I thought it was a place where only a Cetra may reach...yus?

Am I the only one who doesn't see anything romantic between Zack and Angeal?

Wow... I think I'm gonna start a thread on the Promised Land. :lol: No, I didn't think the Promised Land was only for Cetra. :rolleyes: I'm not sure that either Angeal or Zack would "make it to the Promised Land", however... more on that in the thread I'm going to create, though. ^_^

Although Angeal may not have been leading Zack to the Promised Land in particular, he may have been leading him into the "spirit world" of the Lifestream.

Granted, I haven't played CC, but I did read the script. No, I saw nothing romantic between them. Friendship, yes. Romance, no.

Don't we actually already have a thread on that somewhere? Meh, either way, I'm waiting to hear what you think about that. I think it's such an interesting topic. :D

Yeah, I haven't played the game either, which is why I thought I was completely missing something here. :P

... Angeal lifted Zack to the Lifestream, the place where all dead people go. That's the reason for Zack being there Maiden of the Planet.

And for the record, I've always believed Zack really did love Angeal. Not romantically, but in a strong friend/family sort of way. After all, Angeal was a good friend to him before he died and also his mentor. I think Angeal being the one to take Zack to the Lifestream sort of shows that he is important to Zack.

I think the hand reach scenes aren't really comparable. AC mirrored FFVII's hand reach scene. In Cloud's case, Aeris was saving Cloud during the hand reach scenes. I believe that in VII she was guiding him out of the lifestream(?), and in AC she was guiding him out of Bahamuts flare attack.

I guess maybe... JUST MAYBE Cloud can see Aeris when he's on the brink of death and she always saves him. Just an idea I thought up just now. xD

The Promised Land provides happiness, if someone keep seaching, they'll find it, in Aerith's case, it's the Lifestream (maybe the same to Zack, eh?) can be explained by Aerith:

Aerith: …I don't know. All I know is… The Cetra were born from the Planet,
speak with the Planet, and unlock the Planet. And……then… The Cetra will return to the Promised Land. A land that promises supreme happiness.

After watching CC, I got a strange/crazy idea tat Cloud's in luv with Zack hehe :P