Well first, I see all the talk about Cloud starting a new life with Tifa in Advent Children, and them together, and so forth. Well, is that really fair? I mean, heartbreaking as it is, Aeris is dead in Advent Children, if Cloud wanted to pursue his relationship with her, that throws a pretty big wrench into the works. So it's not fair to count all the Cloti evidence in AC I think.

And yes, Cloud had a crush on Tifa when he was a kid. And I'll bet so did four other boys around the village. Everyone has a childhood crush, that doesn't mean you love them. In fact. when he sees her in Seventh Heaven, Cloud is pretty indifferent. If he was in love wouldn't he be happy to see her?

Cloud also promised to protect Tifa. And yes, sweet and all, but he also promised the same to Aeris.

Then there's the Cloti moment before the trip to fight Sephiroth. But that was all Tifa's doing. She's the one who said the line and she was the one snuggling up to Cloud while he sat there. And in my view, that's the true story of Cloti - it's a cute pairing to read fanfics about sometimes IMO, but it just doesn't work.

Tifa is in love with Cloud, of that I'm sure, but he's more or less indifferent to her and doesn't have the same type of relationship with her as he does with Aeris.

I think with Cloti, there's plenty of evidence to show Tifa loves Cloud, but there's virtually none to show he loves her back. And unrequited love, while making for a good sob-story, isn't true love between two people. Aeris and Cloud have that. Tifa and Cloud don't.

My congratulations,you belong to the few guys that understand the whole CloudxAerithxTifa thing. ^_^

Lol, thanks. There's evidence in the game to support both pairings to an extent, but the Cleris evidence is set in stone

- Aeris is Cloud's default date, not Tifa. You have to go out of your way to be mean to Aeris to date Tifa.
- Aeris is the one paired up with Cloud in all the artwork, there's even one of him with Nanaki, but none of him with Tifa.
- In the original draft of the game, Barret, Aeris and Cloud were the only playable charcters! That says it right there, Tifa was added to the game later while Aeris was in it since the start.

I can understand where this idea comes from, but I don't really get why this is used as evidence. Cloud had wanted to start a new life with Tifa (as friends), because he seemed to be looking for a little redemption from himself. However, that didn't work out. Cloud started hiding in Aerith's church. Whatever his reasons were for that, the fact still remains that Cloud wasn't happy with living with Tifa. So, if they were in a romantic relationship in Case of Tifa, the relationship clearly didn't work out. In a sense, whether the two were in a relationship or not, Cloud left Tifa for Aerith.

So, why on Earth would they ever get back together during or after the events of Advent Children? It seemed to me that Cloud wasn't interested in anything Tifa had to say, and only felt "lighter" after talking to his beloved Aerith in a flower field.

Then, there's the "Aerith gave CloTi her blessing to be together when she walked out of the Church," answer. No, she didn't. To me, when Aerith walks out of the Church, she's moreso saying, "Dead or alive, I'll always be with you." Yes, she walks out of the Church. No, she doesn't walk away from what she and Cloud have together.

In my way of thinking, Aerith will be waiting for Cloud in the Promise Land/flower field. Because I don't want to get into it, I'm disreguarding what I think the Promise Land is. I'm just going to say that you should compare her waiting in the Flower field for Cloud in Calling to how and where Aerith is waiting for Cloud to come back in KH2 in the credits. She was sitting in the area where Cloud and Sephiroth fought and then she looks up to the sky. Does this tell this anything about their relationship in FF VII and Final Fantasy. Perhaps. The message I get from this is: Aerith is willing to wait all eternity for Cloud.

I'm probably the only person that's skeptical about this so-called crush Cloud has on Tifa. Honestly, how does Tifa look from a distance? How did Cloud think of her? Yes, the crush is there, but how true is it to a degree? Cloud liked Tifa. True. Did he liked Tifa for Tifa? The world may never know, because for one, she was one of the many kids that ignored him.

We know that Cloud does think highly of Tifa, even as an adult, but what does he really think of her? Does he think she's always in control of any situation? But, that goes back to Cloud and Tifa as children. Maybe he thought she was beautiful and therefore perfect.

Later in life, Cloud seems to dismiss this crush and leaves it in the past. This would have had to have happened before his encounter with Aerith.

Which brings me to the promise. First of all, the only time when Tifa shows any interest in Cloud is when he says that he is going to join SOLDIER so that he can be like Sephiroth. Tifa then nags him into making a promise that Cloud will be her hero and rescue her.

Is this sweet? No, not really. Why? Because on Tifa's part, this is rather shallow. She seems to think that Cloud is going to be some great hero and that she should own him. Not to mention, Cloud forgets about the promise, which just screams "LOVE!" doesn't it? :rolleyes:

Cloud is quite the greedy mercenary at the beginning of FF VII. However, even if it is one gil, Cloud still gives it up, in spite of how important one gil is where he's living, he still buys the flower from our favorite flower girl.

Later, he except one date when he makes a deal with Aerith that he will be her bodyguard. I'm not sure if Cloud actually thinks that Aerith will fall through with her end of the bargain, but either way, he does become her bodyguard and does a nifty job at it. Throughout the game, Cloud is becoming less self-involved and starting to care about everyone around him, except the villians, of course.

But hey, not only does Cloud protect her in FF VII, but in Tactics and Kingdom Hearts 2 as well.

Tactics: A couple of guys start to harass Aerith and Cloud comes to her rescue saying, "Get your filthy hands off her!" or something like that. He then tells Aerith to make a run for it. After the fight, Cloud then starts babbling about his pain and how much his misses his Aerith.

"Cloud...there's someone in your world waiting for you." This is not referring to Tifa, because that would make no sense whatsoever; it's referring to Aerith.

And once again, Cloud goes back to talking about the Promise Land- "Must go...to the Promise Land." *ahem* Talking about Aerith again.

Kingdom Hearts 2: "I don't want you involved."-Cloud.

This pretty much means that Cloud doesn't want any help from anybody when fighting Sephiroth himself, because he doesn't want anybody harmed. So, yes, Cloud is protecting Aerith.

Of course, this was my first-ish experience with Cloud Aerith, thinking that they were a couple and he simply wanted to protect her from any harm that Sephiroth would surely do to her.

Now that I am more experienced with Cloud and Aerith, Aerith's death just doubles to Cloud's line. Whether or not this is AU, I now think that the line is referring to her death and going back to the theory that this might be a different Cloud, this Cloud wouldn't want to see Aerith die twice.

Regardless of any theories, Cloud still protects Aerith and in return, she promises that she'll cheer for him from afar and that she'll be waiting for him to come back.

Does Cloud even protect Tifa in any of these games? No. Tifa isn't in Tactics and then in Kingdom Hearts, he runs away in a huff, because she ruined his chances of killing Sephiroth when she nearly blinds him.

Sorry for the essay.

Lol, an interesting essay.

Something else regarding the LT in Kingdom Hearts - during the second confrontation, Tifa spars with Sephiroth. And while Sephy is busy trying to chop Tifa into kibble, what is Cloud doing? Not saving her, at least!

I don't think Cloud feels the need to save her, since it can be said that Tifa is just light, and the light never dies or stops stalking Cloud. Eithery way, I think it's safe to say that Cloud didn't want to save Tifa, but if he had to, he would. But if he had to save Aerith, when she didn't really need the help, Cloud would still be there, being her bodyguard and all.

Well I think it may be a little much to say he didn't want to save her...

Perhaps, but Cloud was pretty preoccupied with Sephiroth and helping Sora with the Heartless. If he didn't want to save Tifa, it was because Cloud was busy fighting evil. Tifa was consistant, though. Why she thought she was going to find Cloud behind a painting, I'll never know, but I don't think Cloud wanted to be found.

Yay for hide and seek!

:yes: Well here's my thoughts: Cloud's on the run from Tifa because she represents "pure" light which he doesn't have much and therefore can't face (when she tried to give her light to him, he winced & covered his eyes). I believe that Nojima said Tifa may not even be human, but rather an imbodiment of light itself. I doubt Cloud would want that kind of relationship & I don't think Tifa wants a relationship with Cloud either. She probably just wants to rid the world of darkness & since Cloud hasn't fallen too deeply into it, she wants to "save" him & rid him of his darkness, no romantic feelings on either side, since Aerith is his love interest & more importantly unlike Tifa understands both light & darkness.

I also think although Cloud loves Aerith, his darkness prevents them from getting together but she understands & lets Cloud fight his own battle without worrying that he'd have to protect her.

I had never really thought of it that way before, but it makes sense why the CloTi relationship wouldn't work out in Kingdom Hearts 2. I would actually like to see them imply something with CloTi rather than just seeing Tifa stalk Cloud like an obsessive fangirl. It's one thing to have Nojima say something like Tifa being just light, but maybe giving us clues to how this can be. Yes, yes, Cloud had lost memories, and Tifa could either light or apart of Cloud's memory. I, personally, prefer the second choice, but I won't explain that, since that would be off topic.

Anyway, I can't see why CloTis feel the need to add Tifa chasing Cloud to the proof list. Yet when we bring up Clerith moments, they dismiss as complete AU and doesn't matter. First of all, that's hypocrital. Second, Tifa is chasing Cloud, not the other way around. Cloud is, on the other hand, running from Tifa. How does that even remotely tell the viewers how in love Cloud is with Tifa??

Yes, it's true that there is some sort of wall between Cloud and Aerith thay may have to do with the balance bewtween the darkness and light. An obstacle, indeed, and I'd like to see them overcome it in KH3, but I won't get my hopes up. Anyway, in another world, they do somewhat overcome it in Advent Children. Kinda/sorta, but not really. Now I'm just babbling, so I'm gonna stop here.

First of all, I love all the reasons you've listed, PinkWhiteLove and Drake Clawfang. You've pretty much summed up the views held by most people on this forum. Well said! :cheer:

I couldn't agree more. Angelalex has always said that a better name for Case of Tifa would be Case for Divorce. :lol:

I think it's jumping to conclusions to think that Cloud was actually trying out a romantic relationship with Tifa between FFVII and AC. It's definitely left up to interpretation, but come on - he has his own room, and it's said that Tifa sleeps with Marlene (at least she does before Denzel moves in). As the story progresses, the communication between Cloud and Tifa is poor, Marlene tells Barret that Cloud and Tifa aren't getting along, and then Cloud moves out.

Furthermore, Tifa's been shown to live with other males on a platonic basis. At the beginning of FFVII, Tifa was living in the Seventh Heaven with Barret, Biggs, and Wedge, and there was nothing romantic going on there. So there's no actual proof that Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved after FFVII. Nomura's even said that he has no idea whether Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved at that time.

They also like to say that Aerith returns to the Lifestream to be with Zack at that time. If that's so, then where is Zack during Calling? Why is Aerith shown to be waiting for Cloud with Zack nowhere in sight, and the corner of Aerith's pink ribbon shown overhead as Cloud travels? :lol:

If you think about it, if the creators had wanted to confirm Cloti at the end of AC, all they had to do was show Cloud riding back to the Seventh Heaven and taking Tifa into his arms. Instead, they show Cloud riding out to a flower field to be with Aerith, pictures of the flower field all over his desk and walls, and a flower bouquet from the field where Aerith was standing lying on his desk. The whole focus of AC's ending is Cloud and Aerith, not Cloud and Tifa.

Actually, your ideas on the Promised Land are very interesting. ^_^ I just like to discuss the subject in order to see that our interpretation fits with what's depicted in the Compilation as well as statements from the creators. If we know what the Promised Land is, then it's easier for us to legitimitize our interpretation in debates and on websites - especially if we think that Cloud and Aerith have found their Promised Land together.

Actually, I think there are many parallels between KHII and AC, just like there are numerous parallels between KHI and FFVII. However, I think the ending of AC shows that Aerith and Cloud have actually been reunited, while the ending of KHII shows Aerith's confidence that Cloud will return.

Oh, no... you are far from being the only person who's skeptical about the "crush". :lol: Many of us here completely agree with you. ^_^

I've never understood how people can find Case of Tifa romantic. Must be that selective reading thing. CoT shows just how awful Cloud and Tifa would be in a relationship together. The communication between them is poor (just as it is in AC), Cloud never opens up Tifa, and he runs away to Aerith's church all the time. Not to mention, there's the little known fact that Cloud just STARES at Tifa when she asks him if he loves her. That right there should let people know that absolutely nothing is happening between Cloud and Tifa.

As for how people can still ship Cloti when Tifa now has ~maternal~ feelings for Cloud is beyond me.

...Crack pairing? :lol:

Well, you guys pretty much sums up most, if not all, points about Cloti. As far as I see, if Cloud and Tifa didn't show signs of a healthy relationship, then there's no point in moving it onto romance if it fails.

Does the official translation say that he "stares"? :unsure: The unofficial translation at FFVII Web Novels says that he gives her a dubious look. Cloti's kept trying to tell us that meant Cloud was uncertain about what she had said, but that's not how dubious is used. In that context, dubious really means that he's doubtful about what she said. :lol:

But even the fact that Tifa has to ask Cloud if he loves her means that she *doesn't know*. If she doesn't know, then he sure isn't acting like it, is he? :lol:

The thing is that Tifa forces Cloud to open up to her, and he does, eventually. It's so funny how they can relate to each other on different subjects, yet they have communication problems. They are said to understand each other so well. If that's true, then why can't they ever have a normal heart-to-heart. And, the big problem is that it's mostly Tifa talking about her feelings (especially in AC) and when Cloud decides to talk, his thoughts are just getting darker and well, more emo.

With the first scene we see with them, "talking," Cloud tells her that he is unable to protect his friends and family. He is, of course, talking about three main people: Aerith, Zack, and his mother, but since the move evolves around Cloud's depression and guilt, he is mostly talking about Aerith, and he feels responsible for her death.

Then, it cuts Cloud riding through the Forgotten City and Cloud ends up talking to Aerith. She doesn't really do a lot for him to open to her. She's just there for him. And this is actually the only time I ever recall Cloud's body language changes when he tries to look at her. Anyway, notice how Aerith doesn't yell at Cloud and he responds to that easily. Aerith doesn't force anything out of him, and that's how it works out.

Second, Tifa and Cloud are still talking when cutting back to the black room, darkness/emo scene. Once again, the conversation leads back to Aerith and the scene goes all white. Then, we're back to Vincent and Marlene, talking about sins being forgiven, implying Aerith, clearly.

But, you know, I'm not completely stupid. Like, I know that confrontation solves a lot of problems and that it's a way to get things out in the open. However, when you do it constantly, it becomes a routine that you don't exactly enjoy. Then, you become a bickering, married couple and there comes a point when you realize that you're just not in love anymore. I do believe that patience is a virtue and that's what Aerith decides to use when helping Cloud cope with his emoness and what not. No CloTi can tell me different, because I have actual experience with this. Okay, rabids, let me school you on what a stable relationship is and what it's not.

It is not fighting and lying every two seconds with your "true love" that you can tell anything to. No.

A stable relationship is being able to open up and communicate with each other.

I'm sorry to all CloTi fans. I can see why you like them, but I just don't see how their relationship could ever work out for the better. Why does Tifa always chase him down? J-just why? If he's so willing to open up to her, why does he run away? That's the big thing about their relationship. He does need to open up, but it's fair to say that he doesn't feel safe enough to tell her about what he feels. Yet, in AC, Cloud can be seen talking to Vincent and SEPHIROTH. Yes, in a very subtle (for the lack of a better word) way, he does open up to Sephiroth with the whole, "There's nothing I don't cherish" line.

Cloud and Tifa really are more of the people that have the bittersweet friendship. It's bitter because Tifa is trying to communicate and Cloud just doesn't want to stay and deal with his issues. She's easily annoyed by this, and it just adds to Cloud's bad place. And while Cloud does need to be pushed, it's Aerith's way of communicating that (quite literally) pulls Cloud of the darkness.

Then, there's the sweet factor. Of course, their friendship is sweet, because at the end of the day their each others best friend and they respect each other on a very high level. That's how I see Tifa's little smile towards the end of AC. Yes. Cloud loves Tifa. That's not a lie. I'll say it again. Cloud loves Tifa. However, Cloud is nowhere near in love with her. It's strictly platonic. That's just the way it is.

Okay, so now, I'm moving on...

Calling... What can I say about that?

Um, before what I was saying was that Aerith is seen waiting for Cloud in the flower fields to where in KH 2, she's just kind of looking up at the sky. Yeah, I totally believe that in Calling being the reunion between Cloud and Aerith, but I was moreso talking about the little clips of her waiting for him to arrive. If I didn't know any better, I'd say they were going to have a picnic in the flower fields. A girl can dream. :fangirl:

And you know, just because their dead does not mean that Aerith ends up with Zack and Cloud ends up with Tifa. This is completely unrealistic and doesn't happen in real life. You cannot help who you fall in love with and how long you're in love with. Time and death are not factors. Don't tell me different. Seriously, don't make me compare Aerith and Cloud to Jack and Rose from Titanic. If any CloTi likes them as a couple you cannot think differently of the relationship Cloud and Aerith have. Yes, fair enough, it's a long stretch to say that Cloud and Aerith are in love from a CloTi perspective.

That's another reason why I don't believe in the: Cloud loves both of them, but since Aerith dies, he ends up with Tifa.

No. Just no. That's not how it works. That is just out the window for me. It's fine if you believe it, but I'm not going to buy it.

Then, the whole ZackAerith stuff. Um, I wanna like them as a couple, but the fact is that I don't. They have chemistry, but they don't have a whole lot history. I mean, they do, but they don't at the same time. They're not cannon at all. Aerith disses him in MotP, so why would any sane person think that they're still together. Yes, Zack's consistancy is a good theory, but it's non cannon or ever even mentioned in the AC storyline. Yet another relationship that doesn't make sense to me. They were together, yes, but it wasn't meant to last. Yes, a good sob story, but it doesn't come close to what Aerith and Cloud have together.

If they were together in AC, all the writers would have to do is show Aerith and Zack running towards each other with cliche music in the background. Easy as that. But, they didn't do that. Why Zerith isn't out the window by now just shows how oblivious and stubborn people are. *shrugs* I can identify with that, though.

As far as parellels go between the Final Fantasy VII, AC, KH 1 and 2 storylines go, well, you can compare them to Sora/Kairi and Roxas/Namine. That's kind of hard for me to say because I adore Sora/Riku and AkuRoku, but I'm not blind or stupid. I know real love when I see it and I'm a sucker for the obvious relationships, so I like Sora/Kairi and Roxas/Namine, too. Babbling aside, there are plenty of parellels between the storylines.

And then the dubious thing. I cannot confirm what Tifa means, because it's been awhile since I've read CoT, but either way you toss the coin, if it is so obvious that Cloud loves her, why is she asking? This insecurity is endearing, yes, but this totally does blow a lot of CloTi "evidence" out of the window, so to speak. If that does hint at a possible relationship that they might or might not have, then by the end of the book it's apparent that they don't have much of one. So there's some light on that.

Done for now!

Agreed. There is NO evidence that Cloud was interested in or started a romantic relationship with Cloud. There is plenty of evidence otherwise, though, just as Anastar pointed out. Not to mention Tifa's feelings turning into those "a mother would have". If Cloud and Tifa were currently involved in a romantic relationship, why the sudden change in emotions for Tifa?

Also, Cloud did NOT say he was starting a life with Tifa. Cloud says "my new life", not "our new life". If he intended to begin a romantic relationship with Tifa, why wouldn't he say "our" and include her as well? If Cloud chose Tifa at the end of FFVII, like so many CloTis think, he wouldn't have a problem with including Tifa in this statement.

Also, Cloud states he'll be okay because he has Tifa with him, not that he's starting a new life because he has her with him. Honestly, I don't see anything romantic here. o_0 Cloud speaks of being a failure in the past when trying to start anew and then says he thinks he'll make it this time because he has Tifa there to support him. Tifa is his best friend and is like a mother or a sister to him. Why wouldn't Cloud count on her for support???

Yes, "Calling" completely PWNED CloTi, IMO. :lol:

Amen, sister! :gift: Plus... Cloud could talk to Aerith and Vincent about his "sin", but he couldn't open up to his "true love", Tifa??? Riiiiight... :rolleyes:

Edit: For some reason, my quote boxes aren't working. :ermm:

Hey hey,
I fixed it for ya. You just forgot the "=" sign in between "QUOTE=PinkWhiteLove".
I added it for ya. Hope you don't mind. :gift:
~HD

Who says they understand one another well? :unsure: The creators have actually stated otherwise. The following is a quote from the Reunion Files, pg. 19:

Nojima: Tifa's been with Cloud for a large part of her life at this point, but she still doesn't understand some of the complexities of his heart, and this makes her uneasy. Nonetheless, she keeps these feelings to herself for the sake of the children.

Since Nojima is basically saying that Tifa doesn't understand what makes Cloud tick, I doubt he thinks they communicate well.

Exactly. And this is characteristic of Cloud and Aerith's interactions with one another. We see it all the time in FFVII. Aerith is very good at understanding and "reading" people, which helps her understand Cloud very well without any explanation from him. Even when Cloud does try to tell Tifa about something, she often misunderstands.

And like you said earlier, if they couldn't understand one another well before AC, why would they communicate any better after AC? Cloud resolving the issue of his guilt may improve his mood, but it's not going to improve his ability to communicate. :lol:

That's a very good point about Cloud opening up to Vincent and Sephiroth more easily than Tifa. That hadn't occurred to me before, but I completely agree.

Well said. :yes:

Oh, okay... I see what you mean. When you said that Aerith is willing to wait for eternity, I thought you meant that she'd have to wait a long time. :lol:

Well, Zerith is a canon relationship, but in the past... just like RinoaxSeifer. The FFVII Compilation Ultimania even says that Zack was Aerith's first love, not her only love. Even Nojima implies that he regards Zack and Aerith's relationship as nothing more than a crush.

Besides, Zack and Aerith's affection for one another in Crisis Core is optional, which is fully documented in the FFVII Crisis Core FAQ/Walkthrough by Absolute Steve at GameFAQ's. In Crisis Core, there's a process similar to the FFVII Date Mechanism which makes the level of Zack and Aerith's affection for one another dependent on choices made by the player. For that matter, the affection level between Zack and Aerith is also optional in FFVII. What Aerith says about Zack to Cloud in Gongaga after they speak to Zack's parents changes according to Aerith's affection level with Cloud.

Cloti's also like to claim that MoTP can't be considered canon, but their claims about that just don't hold water. Their reasons are too long to go into here, but suffice it to say that it's baloney. :lol:

True, and SE could easily have done the same thing with Cloud and Tifa if they wanted to establish them as a canon couple... but they didn't. If you ask me, the music vid Calling at the end of AC is closer to being that kind of romantic scene between Cloud and Aerith than anything shown with Cloud/Tifa or Zack/Aerith.

Exactly. If Cloud and Tifa's relationship were *anything* like most Cloti's imagine, then Tifa wouldn't need to ask... would she? :lol:

Agreed, PWL. Cloud in AC just can't talk to Tifa. Aeris, well it's obvious why he can talk to her, and Vincent, same deal, Cloud's going through the same thing as he did with Lucrecia and Hojo, just, as they said in PotC, "one chapter behind" (which hey, would explain his KH attire :P).

Tifa just tries to pull Cloud towards her and Cloud just pulls away. As I said before, all their romantic moments in the game are Tifa's doing - it's Tifa who asks him to make the promise, it's Tifa who has to talk him into signing up with Barret, it's Tifa who initiates the scene of them snuggling underneath the Highwind. Not counting the optional choices of how you interact with her for the date, I cannot recall a single instance of Cloud showing interest in Tifa.

We get that in the flashbacks - he carries her to safety in Nibelheim, is hesitant to show his face to her when they arrive there, and he leaves and joins SOLDIER to impress her. But that's in the past. Let's face facts - sometimes romantic interest doesn't pan out. People just grow apart, and by the time VII starts, it's safe to say that's Tifa and Cloud. But even then, not really, Cloud is clearly scared to see Tifa at Nibelheim and when he left she's begun obsessing over him.

AC, same, they're just growing apart. Forget dialogue, look at Cloud's *body language* around them. The only time he really opens up to Tifa is when he finds her in the church, and no surprise why, for all he knows she's dead. But otherwise? As Tifa makes a point of saying, he doesn't answer the phone, he's been off on his own, and how does he act around her? Tense, brooding, emo, angsty, call it what you want. Case in point, the bedroom scene, obviously.

Now, how does he act around Aeris? Driving to the Forgotten Captiol - interpret the emotion in them as you like, but watch his eyes. Then when he's actually with Aeris, he's still tense, but who can blame him? I mean, you see your long-lost love after two years after you watched her die in your arms, how are you gonna react? But then, she touches him, he doesn't pull away, he doesn't run. And when fighting Bahamut and in the Church, he's in awe, almost, and again, watch his eyes. And of course, the scene where Aeris calls down the rain - to me, corny as this will sound, that scene with Cloud tilting his head back and smiling is just beautiful to me on so many levels.

As for Case of Tifa, reading it for the first time now, so I'll have to get back to you on that.

For calling, Madame Mod Anastar, there is a similar scene - it's been claimed that the scene of Cloud and Tifa in the church is a romantic one, with the music and the flowers and all. I see how it could be interpreted as such, but I don't think so. Tifa's been beaten half to death and Cloud has fainted because of his Geostigma. How romantic!

In the meantime, I repeat my quote from another topic: "What's it going to be? A memory or us?" And that right there pisses me off. Now only is that cruel of Tifa to demand that Cloud make such a choice, but it's a blatant ultimatum, and if Cloud is in love with Tifa, why would she need to give him that? I'll tell you why, because :cleris: !

I'm going to be harsh here. I don't buy the "Cloti" church scene.
The soothing music and pretty flowers were added in there as an indication of Aerith's presence. We're talking about the Water Theme and Aerith's flowers . They're supposed to indicate Cloti? I don't think so, and it doesn't take a brain to figure that out. Frankly, anyone who interprets those two things as evidence of Cloti is just too desperate. I have so much more to say about why Cloti evidence doesn't add up, but I'll save it all for later.

Just read Case of Tifa. Sounds like typicaly Cloti to me. Starts off with some very Cloti moments, yeah. But then it mentions Cloud going off alone, keeping secrets, growing distant, etc. And Tifa doesn't know how to handle it. And then they find Denzel and it's alright for a while, but then Cloud goes back to how he was before.

Again, the book sounds like Cloud is trying but can't let go of his past, and Tifa's trying to help and understand him, but she can't, and Cloud's distancing himself from her. Typical Cloti interaction to me.

Actually, the version I have that came with the AC Limited Edition Set says that Cloud looked "perplexed". Which is just fine, as dubious and perplexed are synonymous.

I'll say more later, but Cloti evidence has never added up. C/T supporters have to grasp for straws.

Thanks for fixing my post, HD... :gift:

Not only do we have Aerith's flowers and the music, Water, but this scene takes place in Aerith's church, the place where she and Cloud first met. Plus, there is also the fact that Cloud and Tifa are surrounded by a white light that only appears when Aerith is on screen. Throw in the wolf, the symbol of Cloud's guilt, standing right next to him and the truth reveals itself-- the scene is actually all about Aerith. Cloud and Tifa lying unconscious in Aerith's flowers, in Aerith's church, while Aerith's music plays, surrounded by Aerith's light, and accompanied by the symbol of Cloud's guilt for Aerith's death... and this adds up to a romantic CloTi scene how??? :ermm:

And if the logic of that doesn't get you, then the words of the creators should:

"There's some foreshadowing that the church is where Aerith is going to appear," says Nojima. "There's a point in the plot where Cloud and Tifa are lying unconscious on the flowers here and their wounds are healed. Also, Aerith has a sort of 'watery' image about her, so we used water to convey her presence." (Reunion Files)

Sometimes I think we're helping them update stuffs (like, trans.), or reminding them with some old memories cuz you see, recently not much CloTis (esp rabids) care about "what is it with CxT", they care more about "how bad CxA is." :lmao:

O, can I ask one question? It's a little off-topic, but it annoys me for a while. :blush:
All gamers know that Tifa changes a lot after CC, right? The most evident part is her personality-- she is no longer a care-free girl in Nebelhem; she became insecure and clingy about things, about her companions. If I'm worng, plz correct me. Let's forget the fact that they were not close in childhood...I don't think Cloud's crush on Tifa could ever last even if they did know each other when they were young. One of many reasons is that Tifa has been different in FF7, not the same girl 5 years back then. So when Cloud regains his memory, even if he "magically" returns to the Cloud in CC, I don't think the crush will revive.

....I hope I make my point clear. :blush: I point it out becuz I don't understand why Clotis can't agree that Aerith in FF7 has changed (has moved on 'bout her first love) while they seem totally accept that Tifa's personality in FF7 is different from the past.

FFG:

It's like, having Yuffie or even Vincent fainted there won't make that scene any different = no romance. :lmao:


ED: Erm, one more thing about Tifa in CC. I want to know what Tifa was thinking when she sent those mails to Zack. Especially those two:
Mail 4-7
From: Tifa
Topic: Even I can learn to fight.
What does Sephiroth concern about, I really have no idea. But, except Sephoroth, does other SOLDIERS also act like that? Say, a blond SOLDIER?
I don't specifically mean anything, but isn't it a girl's dream? Being in a pinch, a blond SOLDIER would come and save her?
Well, because I can't simply wait for this to happen, I'm learning battle skills from a master recently. The master used to say that I’m well-qualified.

Mail 4-8
From: Tifa
Topic: May I ask a favor?
I forgot to tell you. I’m looking for a blond SOLDIER, and please don’t tell other SOLDIERs about this. I’m counting on you

Not to say it's rediculous to talk about your deam to some guy you get to know for one day, ermm, Tifa seem to look for a "Blond SOLDIER", not "Cloud"...know the difference? She can ask Zack "do you know a SOLDIER name Cloud?" or "Is there any soldier in Shinra name Cloud?" But noooo, she only asked a "blond guy who ranks SOLDIER"... That gives me an impression that she did not care if Cloud was coming to Nebelhem or not, becuz she has no special feelings for him, as simple Cloud. Therefore I really can't agree there's any CxT hinted scenes in CC, not to say the least. <_<

That's line in KH2, when Tifa asks Sora if he has seen a guy with spiky hair, and of course Sora feels his own spiky, brown locks. Try narrowing it down a bit, honey. Anywho, the first time I had read the these letters, I had actually thought that Tifa might have been embarrassed to tell anyone that she was worried/concerned/ had feelings for Cloud. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, since Cloud was the Nibelheim's...well, loser... Even so, shouldn't she stick around and his be there for him? Tifa is part of the reason why Cloud has such low self-esteem. For shame, Tifa. For shame. So, to anybody that still thinks that they are childhood friends, you're sadly mistaken.

In Calling, clouds, hills, mountains, valleys, and of course, the open road is seen. We also see our two lovebirds, Cloud and Aerith. The first time I watched Calling, I had actually the hills, mountains, and what nots were things that Aerith and Cloud had overcome, metaphorically speaking, at least. I just thought the whole video was hinting that Aerith had found a way to be with Cloud, despite the fact that she's kinda/sorta...dead. I had been proven right, with the bouquet of flowers that Cloud had on his desk, and Aerith being a solid figure when she was waiting in the fields. But, hey, the metaphores are possibly more clues to the reunion they had in AC. Just a thought.

And, I don't know how could possibly count the two pictures that Cloud has as CloTi proof. Yes, Tifa is in both pictures, but so are Marlene and Denzel. I hope I don't have to touch base with that. So, anyway, Cloud isn't even smiling. If this is somehow hinting at a relationship between them, then obviously Cloud isn't satisfied with this "relationship" and doesn't want to be there.

The infamous Church scene. My older sister actually started crying when Cloud was acting like some super model. Anyway, Tifa is lying on Aerith's flowers and Cloud runs over to her. Of course, he's going to hold her. It's the respectable thing to do. His Geostigma starts acting up and his passes out. I don't know how anybody can think that this is revolving around CloTi, but they're wrong. Aerith's church, Aerith's flowers, apparently Aerith's second theme song "Water," and a white light. That scene is all about Aerith's presence, and hardly about Cloud and Tifa.

But... how could she look for someone who she already secretly felt shame at heart? I thought she just needed "someone glamorous" to be her BF, like a SOLDIER, but does "that someone=Cloud" matter to her? ...I don't know. IMO, she seems merely to want a cool BF who she could show off by saying "This SOLDIER is my BF, and also my childhood friend!" ...Just me guess.

The only possible explanation I could think of:

LOL Kidding, srry...just can't help it. :blush:

You're right, PWL! Cloud in that picture never looks like a part of them. It's like what is said in CoT, Marlene tells us that C/T are not getting along fine.

Apparently, the major issue is about "who" is lying in Cloud's arm, not the entire scene. *//sarcasm <_< I prefer Kadaj's try, at least Cloud stares at him for a longer while. :B

I found the Kingdom Hearts line amusing. Hey, Tifa said spiky hair! Maybe she was really looking for Zack! And Sora, yeah he has spiky hair too, which gave rise to the Clora pairing :P. I'm sorry, I just love that Wiki page, ha ha.

Simple. She doesn't know if Cloud is a hero yet or making a fool of himself while trying to become a member of SOLDIER. She does want a popular boyfriend, so that's why she asks about the blond SOLDIER, seeing if Zack knows of an important blond SOLDIER. If Zack answers the opposite of what Tifa is expecting, then Cloud isn't famous like Sephiroth yet. Thus, her being a shamed of him and why she never comes out and says Cloud.

OMG! I totally agree with this. If I didn't already obsess over Clerith and Sora/Riku/Ariel, I would love this pairing. *sarcasm* Still, I love that reason. It's why better than any rabid CloTi has.

That's my personal favorite :P. As for the big feet line, I actually added that one myself, ha ha!

That's an interesting and plausible interpretation. Tifa and Cloud's promise all centered around Cloud becoming famous and returning to Tifa a hero. He failed, and thus when he returns he can't bring himself to face her. Tifa in turn, if CC is right (haven't played it so I don't know myself) is hopeful for Cloud to keep his end of the bargain, so to speak. So why not just come right out and ask if Zack knows Cloud?

I know what you mean, PWL. Yet i still don't get it...erm, for some point. Tifa could have asked simple questions like "Is there anyone in Shinra troop name Cloud?" or "Is there any SOLDIER in Shinra name Cloud?" but she didn't. See, Zack never knows that Cloud is her childhood friend, she could easily say "...just somebody I know from our village" if she gets to know the "shame" and Zack happens to request "why ask?/You know him?" She may feel embarrassed if Cloud turns out a nobody but she seems fine to confess the dream (a promise with a Blond SOLDIER)first? What if Zack says "No, your blond hero didn't make it" in reply? Wouldn't it be even more embarrassing? :unsure:

Tifa's behavior in CC confuses me; I don't know if she has feelings for Cloud or not. Or... she starts her good feelings after she meets him in FF7, well, when Cloud shows up strong and cool, and yeah, in SOLDIER uniform.

That would also explain why they've grown apart up to and in Advent Children - Cloud didn't make it, the secret's out that he was never a SOLDIER and was just a grunt following the true heroes around.

That's basically my point. She would be ecstatic if Cloud did make it into SOLDIER and then he would be all hers, with the promise and so on, but if he didn't, Tifa would probably still have feelings for him, but she would keep it hush-hush. Zack eventually takes a guess that Cloud and Tifa know each other, but then Cloud shuts down the topic. Eep! Cloud is so cute in CC!

Yeah, Tifa confuses me in CC, but all FF VII teens confuse me, except Aerith. Thank the Promise Land for Aerith!

Truth is, I don't really think that Tifa and Cloud know each other as well as the CloTi's think, because it seems to be the exact opposite. I just don't see them as being Yin and Yang, because Tifa and Cloud don't exactly belong to the balance of good and/or evil. That's really more Clerith, as I see it.

HD, FFG, and PWL have all explained how that scene is really all about Aerith, rather than hinting at Cloti. But the Cloti's also think that the scene of both of them lying in the flowers shows them in a Yin-Yang position, and that this supposedly represents their love for one another. Sha's written a beautiful explanation about why this is false, and you can find it on my website. Here's a direct link: The Symbolism of Yin-Yang. Sha also talked about it in this thread: Cloud-Tifa = Yin Yang?

I agree - I've always thought that was pretty obnoxious of Tifa to make such an ultimatum, too. People like to think that she's doing it "for his own good", but to me, it seems like an awfully harsh demand.

I completely agree, PWL. In the Promise scene, Tifa really doesn't show much interest in Cloud until he says that he wants to become a SOLDIER. Her reaction always struck me as incredibly shallow:

Cloud "I want to join SOLDIER."
Cloud "I'm going to be the best there is, just like Sephiroth."
Tifa "Sephiroth... The Great Sephiroth?"
(Cloud climbs to the top of the well and looks at the stars.)
Tifa "Isn't it hard to join SOLDIER?"
Cloud "...I probably wont be able to come back to this town for a while."
(Tifa makes a motion.)
Cloud "...huh?"
Tifa "Will you be in the newspapers if you do well?"
Cloud "I'll try."
Tifa "Hey, why don't we make a promise?"
Tifa "Umm, if you get really famous and I'm ever in a bind..."
Tifa "You come save me, all right?"

Cloud says that he wants to join SOLDIER, and her first reaction is whether or not he'll get famous like Sephiroth, and be in the newspapers. :lol: When she suggests the Promise, she also specifically says that he should only come save her *if he becomes famous*. Very honestly, it seems to me that she's far more interested in Cloud's prestige as a SOLDIER than what kind of person he is. <_<

I completely agree. During the Lifestream event, Tifa even says that she and Cloud really didn't know one another well as children. It's actually false that they were "childhood friends", coz they didn't know one another very well.

I completely agree. That's another thing that Sha discusses in her essay (see link above). In fact, Sha feels that if any scene in AC is Yin-Yang, it'd be the back to back scene. :rolleyes:

My thoughts on the picture: It's solidified in my mind that it's supposed to symbolize family, but not necessarily with Cloud as the "father". I mean, after watching AC - not even close. The clearest relationship between Cloud and Tifa that I see is a maternal one, whether it's the more mother-to-son bond or the brother-to-sister one (I think it's the mother-to-son one). It's like Tifa is responsible for THREE children. In AC, she definitely played the role as the mother figure to pretty much everyone, including Cloud (the way she looks out for him). I can understand why her behavior towards Cloud could be interpreted as romantic, but really, I just personally get that whole "family" feel... prolly because it's one of themes expressed in the movie.

Cloud's unsatisfied look in this picture signifies that, in general, there's something not right with him (this is shown in the beginning of AC, right?).

Wow, great essays on the Yin-Yang! I agree though, dualism is a great belief of mine, I think it's a true philosophy and I apply it in my fanfics. So I'm certainly well-versed in the beliefs of Yin and Yang. And sorry, but Tifa is certainly not the Yin to Cloud's Yang - if anything, Tifa's almost as "yang" as he is somethings. The "Yin and Yang" qualities you listed -

Yin - Passive, Cold, Death, Winter, Female, Night, Even, Moon, Water.

Yang - Active, Hot, Life, Summer, Male, Day, Odd, Sun, Fire.

Cloud is certainly Yang (active, male, odd, fire), and I can think of a female VII character who fits the profile of "passive, cold, death, moon, water". But it ain't Tifa and it sure as hell ain't Yuffie!

Agreed. I do understand Tifa's intentions as Cloud's friend, but that ultimatum was not a smart move on her part. This is Cloud Strife, after all. I didn't at all agree with this line and I hated the fact that Tifa has to pull that out. But Cloud made up for the line with, "But, I let you die." Btw, I prefer the English version of that line instead of the, "we let her die." Back on topic, ultimatums and Cloud don't mix very well, just like he and Tifa don't mesh well.

Tifa "Umm, if you get really famous and I'm ever in a bind..."

Totally shallow, Tifa! I don't know if Cloud ever noticed this selfishness, but he was kind of hesitant about the promise. I think the promise scene is about the only time we ever get to see the depths of Cloud and Tifa's past as children growing up near each other, and having one conversation.

So, Tifa is shallow, and Cloud wants to become a hero to impress her and his whole town. For goodness sake, he was just a kid with a crush on one of the very few females there. Give him a break. This isn't even really first love. A shallow promise was made and Tifa nagged him into it. If anybody thinks this is romantic, they must really be in denial on what childhood is all about.

Not deep at all.

Aerith, however, asked him to protect against Shinra, and this was nowhere near shallow. It wasn't until after Cloud decided to be her bodyguard that does he confess that he was a member of SOLDIER. Besides, if I recall correctly (so correct me if I'm wrong) Cloud did mention that he did a little bit of everything when talking to Aerith officially for the first time, and Aerith could have assumed he was in SOLDIER, but at the same time, she didn't really know. Yet she still has enough faith in him, so that Cloud could be her protector. Then, Reno ruins the moment. *sighs*

Aerith isn't interested in the possible *chance* that Cloud can become some great hero, but moreso convincing him that you don't need your picture in the newspaper to know that you already are one. Because, Cloud isn't so sure that he's a hero, but everybody knows otherwise. However, not all of them are so convinced at first, and from my point of view, Aerith knew all along.

I'd have to agree with Sha on just about everything in her essay. I've done some studies about Yin-Yang, myself, and CloTi doesn't fit the description of the two sides at all. Yin and Tang need each other for the world to survive. While Tifa is a good herione, I'm certain that Cloud and the rest of Avalanche could somehow manage without her help. Whereas, Aerith continued saving the world (by saving Cloud from himself) after she had died.

In a romantic sense, I do think that it's Cloud and Aerith that are the real Yin and Yang. But on a regular good vs. evil basis, it's Aerith and Sephiroth all the way.

I believe that in the picture with Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel, that is represents a disfunctional family, which is normal, but Cloud isn't even close to being the father of the family. In fact, Cloud is really one of those angsty teenagers that run away from home. Still, in this case, I'm a firm believer that Cloud actually ran away to his home.

This picture is proof, I believe, that Cloud feels he does not belong. So, there's no way Cloud and Tifa are going to end up together after AC, so the CloTi's can just forget it. The pictures symbolize family and Tifa is apart of that. Good for her, but it's still not proof that Cloud and Tifa are a couple. If anything, it proves that Marlene and Denzel should end up together.

Besides, the flowers are placed in front of the pictures. Those flowers prove that Cloud and Aerith are somehow still be able to meet with each other and that Aerith is still apart of the Avalanche family, because of what she did to save the Planet.

Exactly. Tifa even says during the Lifestream Event that they didn't know one another very well as children:

Tifa "...that's right."
"We lived next to each other."
"But I really didn't know you that well."

So, in reality, they weren't really childhood friends at all. How can you call them "friends" if they really didn't know one another very well? :lol: Since they didn't know one another well as children, and didn't see one another for seven years once Cloud left town (except for the Nibelheim incident, when Tifa didn't even know he was there), that means that they were really just getting to know one another when Cloud joined Avalanche. So the whole thing about them being "childhood friends" is a bunch of rubbish, in my opinion.

Furthermore, it seems that Tifa only wants to be rescued by him if he becomes famous. During the Lifestream event, she even says that she watched the newspapers for his picture after he left. Doesn't that mean she's still waiting for him to become famous? And as Chibica pointed out, Tifa specifically asked Zack if he knows a "blonde SOLDIER", so she's really looking for someone who's a famous SOLDIER, not for her friend. If you ask me, that's really shallow.

I agree. Aerith wasn't worried about whether Cloud was famous or not. She wanted him to be her bodyguard regardless of how famous he was, and she admires him for who he is instead of what he would become. Like, after he rescues her from Hojo's lab, she says this in the Shinra jail to him:

Aerith "Cloud, are you there?"
Cloud "Aerith!? You safe?"
Aerith "Yeah, I'm all right."
Aerith "I knew that Cloud would come for me."
Cloud "Hey, I'm your bodyguard, right?"

"I knew that Cloud would come for me." That just shows Aerith's confidence in Cloud himself, regardless of whether he's famous, or a hero, or in the newspapers. When Avalanche leaves Midgar, too, Aerith suggests that Cloud be the one in charge. She admires Cloud for himself, not for what he can become.

For the first time in Cloud's life, someone genuinely admires him for who he really is. If you think about it, that must have been music to Cloud's ears. ^_^

Agreed. If anything, Cloud is just another one of the kids. Tifa herself says so in CoT:

...He's like a child, Tifa thought. While it made her sad that Cloud could see another world she knew nothing about, the idea his world was expanding at all was a welcome one. Yes... Maybe this is kind of what a mother feels like. Once she saw Cloud off, Tifa was alone with the new emotions growing inside her and was happy.

We also see Cloud acting like a child in other parts of CoT. Some examples:

[During a conversation with Tifa] ... Cloud made a familiar face, like a child who knew a scolding was inevitable...

Cloud gazed at Tifa with the expression of a child whose worst secret had just been let out of the bag..

Furthermore, Nomura commented about this same thing in the Reunion Files:

"Not only was [Tifa] looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a 'big kid' himself in some respects."

So it seems to me that Cloud's much more like another one of the kids than being a father-figure of any sort.

If anything, the first picture shows that Cloud and Tifa are not a couple. Cloud's standing off to the side with his head down, with his back turned toward the rest of them. Everyone looks happy in that picture except Cloud. He just looks downright miserable, if you ask me.

Agreed. The second picture isn't the picture of a couple - it's a picture of all of Avalanche. If anything, the second picture says to me that all of Avalanche is a part of the family. Since the flowers representing Aerith are part of the scene, it seems to me that Aerith's considered a part of the family, too, and that she continues to be a part of Cloud's current life.

As kids, Tifa was popular and had plenty of friends. Cloud was on the outside looking in. His crush on Tifa may or may not have been genuine. But really, Cloud just wanted to fit in and be accepted. That's why he left SOLDIER, he not only wanted to impress Tifa but everyone, he wanted to be a hero. Now that fell through, he can't bring himself to face Tifa, or anyone really, when he returns to Nibelheim, and afterwards when he joins on with AVALANCHE he's still not fitting in.

I think Aerith was the first time Cloud really felt accepted for who he was. She didn't expect him to be a hero like Tifa or Shin-Ra or SOLDIER had, and she wasn't ordering him around like Barret. She was just happy to be with him regardless of who or what he was. And that's true love and devotion, standing by the person you care about without caring how the rest of the world sees them.

EDIT - I don't want to make any Inuyasha fans angry here, but Clotis would never stop shipping Cloti even if Clerith was confirmed to be the canon pairing. For those of you who have never seen Inuyasha, the pairing of InuyashaxKagome is canon. Kagome repeats several times (albeit never to his face) that she loves him, and he repeatedly states that she's helped him move on from his past and that he's devoted to her. They kiss in the anime, almost kiss a couple times in the manga otherwise, and it's heavily implied that they get married - Kagome's brother says she went to get married, and she refers to Inuyasha's brother Sesshomaru as "onii-san", or "brother-in-law". Kagome also mentions that they're living together.

And that's what brings me to the relevance of this - some people ship the SesshomaruxKagome pairing. And again, for those who have never seen the series - they practically hate each other. Sesshomaru has tried to kill Inuyasha several times over the course of the series and makes a point of trying to kill Kagome too just because she travels with him. Kagome in turn has responded in kind, and once threatened to shoot his left arm off with her bow (Inuyasha cleaved off the right arm early in the series). Furthermore, Sesshomaru consistently reiterates that he hates humans, and until the manga ended, he and Kagome barely even shared a conversation, the most they ever had were a few lines exchanged during or after battles, and most of those lines, again, were death threats.

And yet, people still ship the pairing. Kagome and Sesshomaru don't even have a conversation, but people still pair them up. So with Clotis, it doesn't matter how much evidence there is, as long as fanboys keep fantasizing about Tifa and fangirls keep fantasizing about being Tifa, there will always be the Cloti pairing.

To emphasize it, just click the links to see the moments I described.

very good points everyone.
I was wondering about pretty much every thing you all talked about.

A while ago I brought up the fact that Tifa didn't even know Cloud as a kid.And that Tifa was just chasing a coulda-shoulda-woulda-hero. while Aerith admitted that she wants to know the real Cloud and that she always believed in him.and didn't ever want a hero,like Tifa wanted.

But About the first picture.Cloud along with Denzel have sad expressions on.
I don't know why,but they do.
I mean I understand Cloud being sad (thanks to you all xD) .But not Denzel.

I think it also shows the difference between Cloud and Tifa. In AC, Tifa shows much growth and responsibility; it is clear as ever that she is ready to move on and take care of a family. Cloud, on the other hand, is still deeply affected by the past. Imho he is not fit to take on the father role, clearly [especially since Barret has that down, yeahhh], but is much more like another child for Tifa to look out for. He already has a lot weighing on his back as an independent man. Furthermore, I always got that "mother-to-son" feeling whenever I watched the last scene of AC, her smiling at Cloud so proudly. :')

Eh... I don't think it proves that much. :lol: All it gives us is that Marlene and Denzel are part of a "family", with Tifa as their mother figure, and Cloud - with numerous examples from CoT and AC (see Anastar's quotes) - as most possibly their "older brother".

Remember Cloud's "jerk" personality when he first joined Avalanche? The Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega specifically says that this is the "Real Cloud" showing through. It's the personality he had in Nibelheim after he got blamed for letting Tifa fall from the bridge, and it's showing through when he first joins Avalanche.

That's especially interesting because it shows that Cloud hadn't entirely adopted Zack's personality. The "Real Cloud" was still present during Disk 1 of the game. (Ask Chibica for quotes from the FFVII UO about this, or see my website. The quotes are all there.)

Exactly. I completely agree. Aerith isn't interested in Cloud for what he could be, but for what he truly is. To go along with the issue of whether Aerith knew the "Real Cloud", it's also specified in the FFVII UO that Aerith was able to perceive the Real Cloud due to her innate Cetra abilities. Again, ask Chibica for the quotes, or see my website for more detail.

Good observation, TS, and very likely. Ye know, Cloti's tend to think that Tifa's smile is flirtatious, but c'mon... why would Tifa be flirting with a guy who just got resurrected from the dead? :lmao:

Cloud's been gone from the Seventh Heaven for (perhaps) months, sick with Geostigma for (perhaps) months, been dead for at least 10 hours (according to the Reunion Files), and he'd just recently finished a huge battle with the SHM and Sephiroth... and she's flirting with him?!? I find that ludicrous.

Very honestly, I think that's Denzel's typical expression. How often do we see Denzel smile? That kid's been through a lot, what with his family getting killed and then Miss Ruvi (whom he lived with) got killed. After that, he was an orphan on the streets for months, fending for himself, before getting taken in by Cloud, Tifa, and Marlene. He's prolly reluctant to bond himself with them, coz it must seem to him like everyone he gets close to gets killed.

If you think about it, too, we don't know exactly when that picture was taken, nor do we know how long Denzel had been with them when the picture was taken. For all we know, Denzel may have only been with them for about two weeks when the picture was taken. So he could still have been feeling rather awkward. How bad is his Geostigma when the picture is taken? Is he feeling sick?

A specific timeline is never given to us. AC takes place only two years after FFVII. According to CoT, Avalanche travelled together for some time after FFVII - first to Aerith's grave, then to Kalm, then to Nibelheim, then they came back to Edge. It's never specified how long Avalanche stayed together before splitting up, nor is it specified how long a period of time goes by before Barret comes up with the idea of building the new Seventh Heaven. It's never specified how long it took for them to build the new Seventh Heaven, nor is it specified when Cloud started travelling to the Church, nor is it specified when they took Denzel in, nor is it specified when Barret left, nor is it specified how long Cloud had been gone from the Seventh Heaven before the start of AC.

Furithermore, for all we know, it took six months after FFVII for them to come up with the idea for the new Seventh Heaven. For all we know, Cloud left the Seventh Heaven six months before AC. For all we know, Cloud first went to visit Aerith's Church as soon as Avalanche arrived back in Midgar. For all we know, Barret didn't leave until two months before Cloud left to live in the Church.

The point I'm getting at is that - since an exact timeline is never given to us - it's quite possible that Cloud was only living in the Seventh Heaven with Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel for as little as three months before leaving for the Church, that Cloud started visiting the Church as soon as they returned to Midgar/Edge, and that Cloud was visiting Aerith's Church long before he ever moved in there.