I bought the Advent Children Limited Edition Collector's Set and inside was the script. At the end, the script for 'Calling' says this:

***********************

A FARAWAY PLAIN, ROAD

As Cloud rides off on his motorbike into the world, the landscape grows more vivid as the screen's chroma slowly increases. (Composite with real life shots.)

Eventually the bike passes through a patch of flowers.

FLOWER PATCH

Vestiges of Aerith (nothing with any presence in reality) silently watch Cloud as he rides away. Aerith looks a little lonely but then she smiles.

STAFF ROLL

************************

It doesn't make sense to me. I thought it looked like Cloud was visiting Aeris and she turns to see him. The script makes it sound like traces of Aeris, not the real Aeris, staring at him just riding around and she's lonely. The movie definitely shows Cloud being at the flowerfield because of the flowers and pictures on his desk but why would the script say otherwise?? The script is for the English version.

Please tell me what you think.

Wasn't this part of one of the original scripts? Everything the original writer might have intended isn't going to go through Square-Enix. Wasn't Advent Children supposed to originally be about Cloud getting a letter and going around to several kids and such and such? This obviously isn't the same as the movie since Cloud didn't pass "through a patch of flowers"... he passed through and stopped at a flower field.(the flowers on his desk, like you said) And in AC it wasn't a "vestige" of Aeris... that WAS Aeris.


It's kind of like the script of the original FFVII... where Tifa wasn't part of the game. They changed it, and implemented her into the story after they realized that FFVII needed more females. =) Not a perfect example of the above, but I think it can suffice.

...or the chocobo scene. Lol.

The script that came with the Limited Edition Collector's Set is not the final script. That was before they made all of the final changes, so yeah, there are things in there that are not in AC. You can't really rely on that script.

Thanks, I feel so much better now, you guys are so knowledgeable!!

All the other included material is reliable. I own the collector's edition, too. Besides, that seems like it would lead to a big misunderstanding if something so different from the other was kept.

I myself never believed she was really there in the flesh. It shows that even though they can't be together physically, Aerith will always care deeply for him and watch over him from within the Lifestream. That's her will, her fondest desire. Since it isn't possible to be with him in body, mind and heart remain. To believe otherwise would be to contradict the creators intent behind her death, that it was a final thing. Not like melodrama where someone comes back and everything works out perfectly. That's the beauty of their relationship, a love built on the faith you have to show in such a situation.


Am I wrong? :cleris:

The script included in the FFVII:AC Collector's Edition is an earlier draft, not the finished product. There are loads of things in this script that were changed up in the final product or were completely omitted. A couple of examples:

"Cloud's left arm glows with a pale light as the geostigma begins to heal. While Cloud watches this happen, Kadaj destroys the wall near the rafters and escapes. Cloud ignores this and gazes at Aerith's flower bed. He sees Aerith's figure through the misty spray."

The two items I bolded are events that were omitted and/or changed in the final product. In AC, Kadaj doesn't destroy anything to escape, he just rides off. And Cloud never saw Aerith in the misty spray of her holy rain, he just gazed out at Aerith's flooded flower bed with an expression of peace. The latter was probably removed due to the intent of the creators to save Aerith's face until the end of the movie.

"In the midst of battle, Cloud glances earthward and sees Midgar. White Lifestream weaves betwixt the black Lifestream, and the former is cleansed by the latter. Cloud smiles."

This entire sequence was removed from the final version of AC. Obviously, there is an error here, as the white Lifestream would be the one to cleanse the black Lifestream, not vice versa. But, I am guessing this sequence was removed because the creators wanted to save Cloud's rare smile for the end to show him smiling at the children and Aerith.

These two examples only scratch the surface. There are tons of other sequences and events in the script included with the Collector's Edition that were omitted and/or changed. So, how can you rely on this script at all? With so many changes to what was obviously an earlier draft of the film, there is no way to tell if something is correct or not. This script is interesting, but that is it. It should not be used as proof for either side as it is ridiculously unreliable. Too bad, really, because there were some lovely ClAeris-y bits in there.... :no:

Strife's Maiden:

I'm sure they're reliable because they're not like the script, an earlier draft. Nothing wrong with including an earlier draft as this stuff is simply bonus material for collectors. Also, this script shouldn't cause any misunderstanding because it's so painfully obvious that it doesn't follow the movie exactly. Asides from some of things FFG has noted, even "Calling" itself was changed.

Limited Edition Script:

According to the script, Cloud passes through a patch of flowers and Aerith watches him as he drives away. In the movie, she's seen before he even gets to the flowerfield. Also, he's just entering the flowerfield when the Camera stops following him.

Aerith appears quite solid and real as well, nothing like a vestige. Note that she never looks lonely nor does she ever smile. The camera cuts off as she turns around, right after she appears to sense Cloud's approach.

I don't really see that FFVII is trying to say death is a final thing. After all, the game's theme is 'life'. Contrary to the human belief that death is the end, FFVII and MoTP explain that it isn't. One's existence doesn't end with death:

MoTP:

To me, the scenes at the end of 'Calling' reinforces that idea. We're also told that Aerith's consciousness continues to live in Cloud and that it's the reason why he can still see her. Take that as you will.

Sorry about the script, honestly. I didn't remember there being any discrepancies. But that's probably because I mixed it up with a translation I read of it. It said it was from the collector's edition, for anyone who couldn't get it. Anyway, I never looked at my own copy after I bought it, because for all intents and purposes, I thought I had read it. Oh well. Anyway, I got it off of my bookshelf a minute ago, and yeah, there are errors. No big.

The creators were very clear on what the intent behind Aerith's death was. It wasn't supposed to be easy. For all intents and purposes she isn't even dead, was never really separated from Cloud in this scenerio. I think it would cheapen things, make it too easy and take away the impact Aerith's death had on Cloud if her death wasn't a real hindrance to them being together. It takes away what's beautiful and unique about their relationship. Too easy.


Also, there is no proof even in what we see in Calling and Reminiscence that Cloud saw Aerith. First of all, why would Cloud have to drive such a long way to meet Aerith? Why not go to her church? That would make much more sense if there were to be a meeting. He was on his way home to his friends. He stopped to take a call from Barret. He picked the flower, and put it on the desk.

I don't think that flower was meant to say that Cloud holds Aerith more important than his friends. I mean, he loves her, but he cares for all his friends as well. Aerith reminded him that he wasn't alone, and that wasn't just talking about her, it meant the rest of their friends, too. He would have gotten sentimental on his way to a get together with them, and since Aerith wasn't able to be there with him(and everyone else, but him mostly), he picked the flower because that's a reminder of Aerith. I think he laid it next to the picture because it represents her, the only absent member of the party. She wasn't in the picture, so the flower is her.

It also takes away the importance of their scene at the end of AC. That moment was the first time Cloud sees Aerith, as in really looks at her, because he is finally able to face her, having found peace and forgiveness through her. The scene with her leaving was important, it was final, but not. I don't think she will reappear again, but will continue to watch over the one she loves most. Cloud Strife. It's a very beautiful, bittersweet idea, and that's the one that makes the most sense. It what I love about their bond. Their love can't overcome death if there's nothing to overcome. "A love that could never be" would be meaningless. It would be something more like "A love that had to wait for two years, but is now possible". I will continue to believe that Aerith wasn't really there, was a little lonely knowing she and Cloud can't physically be together, but knows that he loves her and will watch over him. Until the [/I]developers[/I] specifically say otherwise. I don't think they original intent could've changed so drastically from the original script.

edit - Also, Cloud isn't the only one who can see Aerith. The team sees her at the end of FFVII when she calls the lifestream(as told in Maiden), the children see her, Kadaj does. The reason the team doesn't see her in AC is because Cloud needed to see her, he needed forgiveness. Yes, she lives on in his subconscious, but not only his. They love each other, but the team loved and cared for her, too, they just weren't in love with her(of course). He made that statement(Nomura right?)because the question was about Cloud. Aerith is the one who instigates, meaning she appears to Cloud, because they have a bond. When Kadaj sees her, Cloud doesn't, meaning it's her will making her visible. Also, as for the vestige thing, Aerith doesn't look any more real or fake than she did before. The reason she was in whitespace before was because it was a big moment, nothing else existed. In fact, it was more of a vision, right? In the church at the end she in't in the space, but rather moves back into it. They show Cloud nearing, or just beginning to pass the field, then they show Aerith. Yes, she felt he was near, but he was basically there already. He keeps driving, and is still driving when the video ends. I think they would have shown him stop in the video if he was stopping to see Aerith. I think some of what I said was a little jumbly, but I think my point still comes across.

Out of all the members, Cloud was the only one who was able to continue to see her two years later. It's not even known if Kadaj saw her or not. He heard her, but saw her? Anyhow, he only heard her because he was on the verge of death. He never saw her before that, so who's to say that he can see her? The children did see Aerith, but I think that's because Aerith is quite close to those children. Even Marlene, who having met her only for a short period of time took an immediate liking to her. As shown in AC, Tifa sensed her...but that was it. She never saw her.

Nomura said that Cloud sees Aerith because her consciousness lives on in him...not because he needed forgiveness. Unless her consciousness is taken away, I don't see why Cloud couldn't see her again.

It's fact that her consciousness lives on in Cloud...as for the others, I don't know. Nomura never said. Even if she does, fact of the matter is, she's closest to Cloud(and children)...which would explain why they could see her and interact with her when no one else was able to.

Ultimania says Cloud and Aerith share a special bond even two years after her death, one that Tifa happens to be jealous of...therefore, it's this special bond that's allowing her consciousness to live on in him, which, in turn, is allowing him to see her. Aerith and Tifa share a friendship as well, but not a very strong one since they are also rivals for Cloud's affection. It might explain why Tifa was able to sense her...but nothing further than that. As for Aerith's consciousness? Given the fact that only Cloud can see her, I don't think I could say that that part of her also lives in Tifa.

I don't think Aerith can really instigate her appearance...at least, not in the sense that she simply chooses who she wants to appear to. There has to be a bond involved, IMO. She doesn't have the same bond with the others as the one she shares with Cloud...which is why the others can't see her when Cloud can. If the others could see her, that would have been shown. Tifa and Marlene, who happen to be the next closest people to Aerith(within Avalanche, that is) only sensed her.

...I'm not saying she looked more real or fake before "Calling". She appears solid and real throughout the entire movie because, like I said, it's demonstrating the theme 'life'. Even though her physical body is gone, the existence of her consciousness allows her to exist and to continue to interact with people in the real world.

He's still driving, but the field streches on forever...so what makes you think he drove right on by Aerith? And they did show him as having stopped. Where do you suppose he was when he made that phone call to Tifa? We get a still-image of the flowerfields, yus? Cloud has several pictures of flowerfields, yus? Do you suppose he took pictures without having gotten off Fenrir? Where do you suppose he picked the flower from if he just drove right pass the field and Aerith as you suggested?

Uh, her death IS a hindrance in some ways. They can't get married(as Caith Sith predicted they would) and, of course, they'll never be able to have children together. However, death does not sever their bond or connection in any way. Her consciousness(the part of her that's still aware) continues to live in him. Whereever he goes, she's constantly near him. Like you said, she's a part of the reason why Cloud finally understands that he's not alone. And according to Nomura, I don't see why he won't ever be able to see her again since Nomura makes it clear that Cloud does see her because her consciousness lives in him.

Also, no one's saying that Aerith's death was supposed to be easy. It wasn't until the very end of the movie when Tifa realized that Aerith has been with them all along. It wasn't until the very end when Cloud realized that he wasn't alone. Everyone had to endure the tragedy of her death(especially Cloud)...but when it's understood by them that her death didn't mean she no longer existed, everything turned out okay. Again, Aerith was chosen to die and symbolize 'life', FFVII's theme. Excuse my bluntness, but I don't see how anyone can ignore the main theme of the game and still say that they'd understood the game.

...and there's no proof he didn't. There are actually tons of things hinting that he probably did stop by to see her or at least be close to her presence. As for driving to the flowerfield...depends on how you see things. The Promised Land is where Cloud and Aerith can meet. I personally see flowerfields as being a representation of the Promised Land as they're the most in tune with nature...more so than a church, IMO.

I don't care if he was on his way to make a delivery or if he was on his way home from a delivery. That's totally besides the point. So are you saying he did or didn't stop by the flowerfield? If he did, what's to say that he never met Aerith? After all, that was where she was shown to be.

They're all important to him. All I'm saying is that Aerith is Cloud's love interest and the other are family/friends to him. Have I somehow confused you?

The flower does represent her...but we weren't arguing that it didn't. All we're saying is that considering FFVII's theme 'life', Aerith is still by Cloud's side. Nomura made it clear that this isn't about memories, but rather, the idea that one's consciousness continues to exist after death. Therefore, IMO, the flower symbolizes more than just "a reminder" of Aerith.

The whole idea of 'life' doesn't take away anything important, IMO. The importance of the scene at the end is that Cloud finally realizes he's not alone. That line has a double meaning to it. Not only does it mean that his family/friends are all there for him, it also means that Aerith is still around despite the absence of her physical body. It doesn't mean Aerith has going away for good or that he'll never see her again...which, unless I've misunderstood you, is the impression I'm getting from what you're saying.

Fine...but what about what Nomura said?
He continues to see her because her consciousness lives on in him. By saying that he can never see her again, are you suggesting that her consciousness has been taken away? How much sense does that make?

She doesn't have a physical body anymore...so yus, there's much to overcome even if Cloud can still sometimes see her, feel her presence, etc. Like I said, no matter how much they love one another, they'll never be able to get married, live together, have children, etc. They can't be together in the same sense that normal, living people can be together. Yus? That's much to overcome if you ask me.

"A love that could never be" was a part of a commercial. It only says that something tragic separates two lovers...not that they can never be together or that they will never find a way to resolve that problem. Commercials only tell you half-facts because it only states the problem or the ordeal the characters have to overcome. True that Cloud and Aerith were separated by something tragic, but again, it does not tell you the resolution to that ordeal. Do you suppose a commercial to the game would reveal answers? You only get the resolution when you play the game and factor in the message of FFVII's theme, 'life'.

Originally, FFVII wasn't going to include a lot of characters that were later added in. If you were to read the first few editions of the game's script, I'm willing to bet there were major differences.
I'm factoring in FFVII's theme and you're not. That's the basic difference between our interpretations. *shrugs*

I think with this thing, let me add something to it, HD? Throught AC Aerith is always surrounded by white light when she's shown, an indicator of her presence but as a spirit. But in the Calling video, Aerith is shown for the first time without that white light surrounding her, which has interesting implications.

I'd also like to add that there is no proof that Kadaj saw Aerith. He hears her voice, certainly, but there's nothing to indicate he actually saw her. Marlene and Tifa both sense Aerith's presence through the movie, but neither of them saw her. O_o The children in the church at the end and Cloud are the only ones we know for certain actually saw Aerith, so I'm not sure where you have this idea that other people did as well.

You're completely right, Alantie.
I didn't factor in the hazy, white light surrounding her.
It's interesting that the light slowly disappears by the end of the movie. First time we see Aerith, she's in a flowerfield completely surrounded by the light. Then during the handreach scene, she's partially in the light as she's coming out of it to grab Cloud's hand. Then at the end of the movie, we see her for the first time completely without the light(though she takes Zack back into it). Seeing her again at the end of Calling with absolutely no white light, to me, definitely reinforces the idea that she can exist in the real world without having an actual physical body. The fact that the setting for "Calling" is live footages of the real world stresses on the idea that Aerith isn't just a vestige. How can she exist in the real world without a body? IMO, as Nomura said, her consciousness lives on in Cloud.

Aerith was reflected in his eyes, wasn't she? Also, Cloud sees her in AC because she appears to him, because he needs her. If Cloud could see her at will, simply because she lives on in his consciousness, why would he be surprised to see her? She instigated. She appeared to him. Another thing, you say the children can see her because she's close to them, but Tifa and the others can't? Not don't, can't. If they needn't to see Aerith, you think they couldn't?

Nomura was talking about Cloud specifically here because the question was explaining why it was possible for Cloud to see Aerith. What makes it possible is the fact that the dead, in this case Aerith, live on in the consciousness of those still on earth. He says in general that the dead live on this way. It doesn't exclude the rest of the party, just like it doesn't exclude the children or Kadaj. And no, I didn't say that her consciousness is taken away, but rather that I didn't think it would be a common thing for him to see her. I think Cloud could see her again, but I don't agree with the notion that they will pretty much, for all intents and purposes, be a normal couple from now on. They won't be hanging out having meetings on a regular basis. Show me when Cloud ever sees Aerith at will, simply because he wants to. I'm sure he wanted to see her many times after FFVII's ending, when he wasn't as down as he gets in AC. Every time was instigated by Aerith.

Only Cloud saw her in AC. Out of the party, anyway. Because he needed forgiveness from Aerith, specifically. More than anything else. It's a little strange to say that some nameless orphans are closer to Aerith than Tifa or the others are. And even if you mean children in general, there's no proof for them being special. The fact is, if Aerith didn't reside in their consciousness, too,(the party, I mean)they would never have been able to see her, two years ago or not. So, it's not that only Cloud can see her, it's just only him she feels the need to communicate with. He's the one that needs her at that moment.

Her instigating would be the only thing that makes sense in context with everything else. Elmyra's husband was coming to meet her, wasn't he? If he had had the will, like an ancient for example, he would have been the one to instigate a possible encounter. Also, it has been show that the others can see her, and she instigated that time, too. Read the end of Maiden. They all saw her smile, that part at the end of FFVII. They have a bond with Aerith, too. Not one of romantic love, but they were allies and friends. They sensed Aerith because, really, who else could have been responsible? Also, they already know who's responsible for manipulating the lifestream. Probably everyone there felt something, when Geostigma was cured, but the party and Marlene know it's Aerith's doing.

I didn't say he didn't stop, I said there's nothing to prove he saw/met with Aerith when he did. Aerith is in the fields, he passes by, she turns to look at him. I think if they wanted to give you the idea that he had a meeting with her, then they would have had him perhaps notice her, or feel like he had to stop suddenly. Can you tell me he would have stopped if not to take the call? It's not an entirely bad idea, because I love the couple, but there's nothing telling me that it's what happened. I think it's her watching over him. Why, if they can't be together phsically, would Aerith not want him to be happy? To try living as normal a life as possible?(I don't mean with Tifa, either. I don't think they're right for each other, there's no chemistry there AT ALL. I like Tifa, though. She's a good friend.)


As for the other stuff, I'll just put it all together here. I do think Cloud stopped in the field. However I don't believe he saw Aerith and will continue to see her on a regular basis. Why hasn't he seen her before now? If Aerith doesn't instigate, why isn't Cloud able to see her whenever he wants to? I know she has no physical body, but if he sees her all the time, and it looks like she can sorta touch him, at least it seems he feels the warmth of her presence, then what's hard about that? Sure, no children, but won't they pretty much be together if he sees her all the time, talks to her? It doesn't make any sense to me that they will see each other so often. She showed up in AC because Cloud needed her, and the planet once again needed her. She wasn't there before. Why not? Why not see each other directly after the game? Why would she let Cloud suffer with his grief and loss if it were possibly to see each other so easily? I don't get it. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't see that it fits in with the life theme in the way that you guys think. Of course death isn't the end. Aerith was able to do so much from the lifestream, and normal people become the force that sustains the planet, which is crucial for the planet's survival. The dead live on through those still alive, which was shown in they movie, but never was there any indication that only Cloud can see her, and he can't see her at will. I don't think the theme is saying that Aerith's death isn't an impediment to their being together, even if it's a just hanging aroung with her spirit. It doesn't click. Also, doesn't Maiden say that she will eventually return to the planet like her mother? She's an Ancient, but she won't be there forever.


As for the flower thing, don't mind me. I understand what you're saying, I just read an analysis that I didn't completely agree with a it became part of my ramble. So, I agree that it is possibly for Cloud to see Aerith, if she appears to him. In Maiden, she entrusts his care to Tifa and the others, and I don't see how that menas she will be an all but physical presence in his life. I guess we'll have to what for either more hints, or another product from SE that deals with this. They are too many things that don't add up in this scenerio, as sweet as it would be. As it stands, I don't want a long argument, and we all still love Clerith, right? Don't let my view on this situation make you guys doubt me, I put my stake on the Cloud and Aerith side a long time ago. :cleris:


Also, I'm sorry for sorta rambling. I get nervous when I have to explain a view contrary to someone else's. Don't eat me! :no:

*Sighs* At the end of the video game, Cloud says, "I think I can meet her there.", and at the end of the movie I would like to think he found the way.... :unsure:

Not to be a downer, as I still think he wants to be with Aerith(Of course), but the original Japanese line doesn't say anything romantic. This was to keep the love triangle vague, as that would have been a non-optional scene where Cloud says outright who he loves. Then there would have been no love triangle, no debate. At least not one that lasted this long. I thought it was obvious who he loved, but the creators will never put something that obvious in there. They can't upset the Clotis like that. The original Japanese line was talking about the planet's answer. Why isn't Cloud searching for Aerith after the game as this line seems to indicate? He doesn't do anything like that, he just starts a business. If that's what he meant by that line, the novellas would have addressed it, instead of him attempting to move on with his life. They met the planet's answer, as well as saw Aerith for a brief moment in the ending FMV of FFVII. That was the meeting. And then we got the beautiful interaction in AC. Honestly, we were all happy enough before the prospect of almost flesh meetings came up, so I don't see the problem. There isn't anything to back it up besides our hope for it, and there are things the scenerio doesn't click with. I continue to be an utterly enthralled Clerith fan, and nothing has changed in my book. But seriously, whenever there is some substancial proof, a plausible explanantion from the creators, I'll be all over it. I just don't see it right now.

I won't jump into your debate with HD but I just wanted to address a few things.

IMO... "I think I can meet her... there." is a pretty romantic and obvious statement coming from Cloud, especially as he is dangling from death at the edge of a rock with Tifa in his arms. How does Cloud professing that he wants to go meet Aerith keeping the love triangle vague? If anything it seemed very clear cut to me. He has the other supposed love interest (Tifa) hanging on around his waist and instead of saying something more vague like, oh say for example, "I think I can meet her there... but I'm also glad you're with me Tifa." (dear God, I would murder SE if they had made the line like that, lolz) would be a lot more vague than Cloud specifically focusing on Aerith alone, without even asking Tifa if she was alright, or if she wanted to come with... etc etc.

What makes you think he didn't search for Aerith? After the game, he started a business - but he also went away for long periods of time. Instead of choosing to stay home and manage the bar with Tifa, he chose to travel the world on his bike, making deliveries. He also takes numerous photos of just plain fields, as you can see in the beginning of AC. Why would he take random photos of fields if he wasn't searching for something in them? Cloud's not the kind of person to just say, "OH HAY LOOK. It's a pretty stretch of grass! Let's take a photo, Fenrir!!! Oooohh... grasss~~"

He also visits the City of the Ancients after the game, and who's to say he's not there looking? He moves into the church - partly because of Geostigma - but one has to question, why the church? Was there not the chance that Cloud could see or feel her presence there? Was it not there that he could feel close to her? Is that not then, a way of him looking for her?

It's not that Cloud didn't or couldn't look for her. He just didn't know how, or where. He doesn't know where the Promised Land is, or how to reach it, therefore "I think I can meet her... there..." is much easier said than done. I mean, where the heck is "there" to Cloud? There's no proof to say he didn't go looking, but if you look at it carefully, there's plenty to suggest that he did. And I am one of those that believe after AC, he is still looking for her (hence the photos of flowerfields). After all, like Calling suggests as symbolic of Cloud, he's a "foolish romanticist". ^_^

The translation was wrong. The line in the Japanese version of the game speaks of the planet's answer. We like to go to the source for our proof, right? The symbolism stuff, I mean. Well, from the source, the line wasn't the same, and our's has serious implications that were absent in the Japanese line.

If it were something as serious as looking for a way to meet with Aerith, especially since from what you guys take the line as in the end FMV, then I higly doubt Square would have glossed over it. There would have at least been a hint. And since Tifa obviously intened to go, why weren't they going together? It's not good enough to say they changed their mind. Such a big thing as searching for Aerith would have at least been hinted at, if not shown directly. I higly doubt if Cloud was searching for Aerith, he'd do it safari style, snapping pictures then developing them to see a familiar shadow. Why can't he find her if all it takes is her living in his subconscious?

I agree he's looking for her. But not in the way you guys mean. I think he wants to feel her presence, but I don't think he thinks he can meet and talk to her. He goes to those places because they hold the strongest memories of her for him. The place he met her, the place she was torn from him. Do you honestly think Cloud thinks he can find Aerith the way you guys mean? I still hold to the fact that the line was mistranslated, and Cloud running aroung looking for Aerith contradicts what he's shown to be doing. Trying to move on. He gives up, wanting to die, when he gets Geostigma. I think he thought he'd go meet her then. But then she appeared and gave him what he needed. If I hadn't been shown the translation error from multiple sources, even some of my Clerith friends have confirmed that it was one, then I would believe he was without a doubt searching for a way to meet Aerith in the way you guys say.


Anyway, I know where you guys stand. I just don't agree. If we're gonna say there's nothing to say he didn't stop and meet Aerith, then there's nothing to say that simply because we didn't see the whitespace, that it wasn't there. That just like the last scene, she didn't walk back into it. There's also no way you can tell me he would've stopped if not to take a call. There's no way you can prove that Cloud can see Aerith any time he wants to, and Aerith never gives any indication of hanging around all the time, as evidenced by the fact that she hasn't appeared once in the two years since the end of the game, when it would've been the perfect opportunity. There's nothing substancial to you guys' argument. I've said my piece. I prefer my Clerith tragic and bittersweet. I don't wanna haggle or sweat the small stuff. If you want my source, I'll give it. I just don't wanna debate circles around this one. So, I'm gonna go look through some other threads now.

I don't recall that she was.
Do you happen to have an image I can perhaps look at?

Like I said though, even if he was able to see her, it was only when he was on the verge of death. That's not the same as Cloud.

I agree too that Cloud needed her, however, from what I can understand, just needing Aerith isn't going to be enough for you able to see her. SE already told us that he can see her because her consciousness lives on in him. Those were Nomura's words, not mine.

If it's my opinion you want, I personally think his guilt prevented him from being able to see Aerith initially. It wasn't until he agreed to face the City of the Ancients(the place where Aerith died) that she first appeared to him.

Back to what you were saying about "needing her" and, thus, being able to see her, it's clear that he needs and wants all his friends/family by his side. Wouldn't that include Aerith as well? Hence, he'll be seeing her again? Would you agree?

So you're suggesting that Tifa doesn't want to or need to see Aerith?
Tifa(from FFVII): "Yeah, let's go meet her."

I thought she wanted to. Like I said, if they could all see her, SE would have shown that. You're suggesting that people don't see her just because they don't need to? IMO, all her friends would have wanted to see her if they could. Bottom line is, they don't share a special bond with her the way Cloud does.

...that's what I said.
I said it's possible for Cloud to see her because her consciousness lives on in him.

Nomura said the dead live on in those still living. That was just a general statement. He never said Aerith is living on in everyone. To clarify what I'm saying, for example, my dead grandmother would live on in me...but not in you. Why would she live on in you when she doesn't share any kind of a bond with you? Yus, the dead live on in the living...but that doesn't necessarily mean my dead grandmother will live on in you.

With that said, I personally do think that her consciousness may reside in all those close to her, not just Cloud, but the degree of that closeness is shown by whether you can sense her, hear her, see her...etc. Fact that Cloud can see her and nobody else(out of Avalanche) was able to, tells us who she's closest to.

So if Cloud needs her, he'll be able to see her again. Since he loves her, I don't see why he wouldn't need her. And yes, I thought I already said they'll never be like other normal couple.

Fact is, Aerith is the mother of the Planet...one who looks after it. The well-being of the planet's future is in the hands of these children. Why wouldn't she be close to them then? Asides from Cloud, the planet itself and those children(who are the next generation of humanity) are probably the next most important thing to Aerith. Just my opinion, of course.

Like I said, I personally feel she resides in all those dear to her, but the degree of that is different for everyone. She's closest to Cloud and the children, so he, along with the children, can see her. The fact that out of everyone in Avalanche, Cloud is the only one still able to see her two years later when they were all able to see her for one brief moment two years ago should tell you who her bond is strongest with and who she's closest to. SE already told us in the Ultimania that Cloud and Aerith share a special bond even two years after her death and that Tifa feels complicated towards Aerith for that. This supports what I'm saying.

I already suggested that the children are dear to Aerith(mother of the planet), and about Kadaj, if she did see him, it wasn't until he was on the verge of death. I don't see how that's proof that he can see her like Cloud can.

When was Elmyra's husband coming to meet her? I could be mistaken since I can't exactly recall, but wasn't it just Aerith sensing him passing on into the lifestream?

Yus, but like I said...two years later and Cloud is the only one still able to see her...so that should tell you that the degree of each individual's bond with her is different. Like I said, Nomura already revealed that she and Cloud share a special bond.

And there's nothing to prove he didn't see or meet her either. So?

Cloud was never shown passing her by.
She never turned to "look at him".

As I've said, Cloud hadn't even come to the flowerfield yet when we see Aerith. I got the impression she was only sensing him when she turned around...'cos..like I said, he hadn't quite arrived at the flowerfield yet.

And if they wanted to give you the idea that he never met her then they would have simply shown him driving by as you seem to be claiming he did. Can you tell me he only stopped to take the call?

That was the only phone conversation heard from a third person's perspective. All the others were heard from Cloud's perspective and you could hear what the other person on the line was saying. If you're asking me, IMO, Aerith was out there in that flowerfield with Cloud. It's possible we're hearing his conversation with Tifa from Aerith's perspective.

...and meeting her in a flowerfield would make Cloud unhappy how? And really, your standard of "normal" probably might not apply to FFVII since, you know, this is Final Fantasy.

It's kind of funny, because no one ever mentioned Cloud would be seeing Aerith on a regular basis. We were just discussing "Calling", and I just happen to think that it's possible he may have seen her out there in that flowerfield.

You have this turned around.
It's already indicated/stated that Cloud can see Aerith...but there's no indication or statement anywhere saying that everyone can see her.

...so what was the reason they were all able to see her at the end of FFVII then? Because they needed forgiveness? What were the children's reasons for being able to see her in AC then?

According to Aerith, the Ancients return to the Promised Land. She can remain in the Promised Land..so it depends on what you think the Promised Land is. To me, the Promised Land is the Planet itself. *shrugs*

We were simply discussing the flowerfield scene and the possibility of him having seen/met her there. No one ever said Cloud would be seeing Aerith on a daily basis. If and when he needs to see her, he can because they share a special bond. Otherwise, he can always just settle for her presence. That's all I'm saying.

I'm afraid I'm confused.
How was it wrong? Source?

That line was translated again in Reminiscence and it says the same exact thing as the one at the end of the game. Also, I believe it was already confirmed in one of the Ultimanias that the line was referring to Aerith. "I can meet her there"...is Cloud saying he wants to go meet Aerith.

It does speak of the planet's answer...as to where to meet Aerith.

There was a hint: the Promised Land.

...and since when did Cloud intend for Tifa to go with him?

Trying to move on as in what?
I don't see how he can't meet Aerith and still "move on" with life.

Yin already suggested the hints:

Basically, you want something solid...and in FFVII, that's something you'll never have. You should know that already as there's nothing substantial to your argument either. All you're going to find is strong suggestions/hints...and those, we've already given you. Take them or leave them, I guess.

Also, whose to say that Aerith didn't already know these nameless orphans? After Aerith's death if you go back to her Church, there are two children there taking care of the flowers, and they ask about the flower lady, indicating that they know Aerith. Maybe these children she's talking to are those same ones or others she knows. CC shows that Aerith is friendly towards people in the slums, including some children. So it's not a stretch to say she might have known those particular children already.

I also believe it's been stated somewhere that children have a stronger sense/bond when it comes to the Lifestream because they are pure of heart. Which isn't all that surprising, since children are supposed to more intune with things like that any way. If that's the case, then that also explains why they can see Aerith, having that connection that adults rarely possess.

I also don't recall Aerith being shown reflected in anyone's eye but Cloud's. :mellow:

That makes no sense, considering the white light has been around Aerith the entire movie, and then suddenly it's not there, but we're supposed to imagine it is? O_o If the white light were meant to be there, they would have shown it. In Calling, the white light that has been associated with Aerith's presence and always shown around her is gone. She's standing in the flower field without it. It's not there, it's no where in sight, and there's nothing to suggest it is.

OK, I've got things a little clearer now. Sorry for the little bit of confusion. I have no problem with a meeting in a flowerfield, I just don't think it was supposed to mean that. I thought some people said they thought that Aerith seemed real, like in the flesh, and that she and Cloud would sort of be together from then on. The only thing I disagree with now is the fact that you guys believe that only Cloud can see Aerith. And the children. So let's focus on that, because I understand the rest now. I believe that the rest of the party could see Aerith if she appeared to them like she did to Cloud, and there is evidence to support this. Please explain your view so I can come to understand it fully.

The so called original Japanese line that people kept flaunting makes no sense and you know it.

What is it exactly that people are saying it is now?

Last time "it" was being used.

Cloud - An answer from the planet ... the promised land ... I think I can meet "it" there ...

IT!? What the hell is it? It makes no sense and you know it.


It doesn't take a genius to put the sequence of events in the ending together. Seen as a whole that Cloud is referring to Aerith makes perfect sense. He'd just finished reaching out for Aerith for godsake. So he's just going to randomly think of some random "it" to meet in the Promised Land? I don't think so.

He was reaching out for Aerith ... their hands reaching for each other ... he was so close to touching her ... then the scene RIGHT after when he catches Tifa ... if one is watching the natural flow, the order of things it makes sense he was talking about Aerith and not just some random it somebody makes up.

Square Enix obviously made it clearer for those who couldn't (wouldn't?) get it by using "The Promised Land ... I think I can meet her there" in ALL other translations including their own translations in Reminense of FFVII. They fixed other things that they weren't happy with (from the old translations of Sony in the game) but not that! If it's so wrong then tell me pray why haven't they fixed it yet? Quick you must inform SE of this grevious mistake? The translation is wrong! It's still wrong ... and SE you are keeping up with the wrongness in every recent translation you make!

Seriously are people going to keep on harping on about this if a remake is made and it's still "HER" !?!

Cloud and Tifa are referring to Aerith. Period.

Until SE comes out with a disclaimer on how the majority of their translations for that scene are so wrong and present the new updated one I'm not eating my hat until then!

I thought it was pretty obvious only Cloud and the kids could see her (what with the kids in 'Advent Children' being the messengers, of a sort)--Tifa could sense Aerith's presence in the water droplet, but as for seeing Aerith...that was all Cloud.

Otherwise, wouldn't you think that everyone would have turned to greet their deceased friend who just helped to save the planet again?

Whatever. I'll look it up again. Anyway, the party did meet Aerith. They met her and the planet's answer at the end of VII. Tell me why Cloud doesn't see Aerith after the game's ending, when he was happy and upbeat. He wasn't depressed until Geostigma. You say he couldn't because he felt guilty, but he was feeling positive at that point. They developers confirm that Cloud was feeling then, ready to start anew and leave all that Sephiroth stuff behind.

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to understand the events of the Compilation, what I don't understand is you guys' claim that no one but Cloud and children can see Aerith. You keep saying a very strong personal bond is needed, but you assume something never even hinted at by the creators. That the children can see her because she is like the planet's mother. She's the planet's will. The rest of the party hasn't been shown to be unable to see Aerith. And even so, Aerith appears to whom she chooses. She's the one showing herself to people. If that statement by Nomura was meant to single Cloud out, excluding the party, then why can the children see her? This statement doesn't exclude the party, they've seen her before, and unless they state otherwise, it means they could again.

Look, I'm not trying to anger anyone, I just want an answer that makes sense. There are things pointing to one, and none to the other.

I don't think it does either, but since the LT wars still rage, it's clear not everyone understands things. :mellow:

First off, Cloud was depressed long before he contracted Geostigma. Geostigma does not cause depression. Right after the battle, of course Cloud's happy and upbeat- he just defeated his arch nemisis and saved an entire planet. But once that starts to wear off and life returns to normal, the things he repressed during his journey started to resurface- such as the fact that he never had time to really grieve for Aerith. He had to keep going and stop Sephy, there wasn't time for him to allow himself to feel the pain and mourn for her. Once his triumph wears off, that's when he begins to feel the grief, pain, and guilt of losing Aerith.

That's what we are given. No one else is shown seeing her.

I believe someone already gave you quotes from the Ultimania that state that Cloud and Aerith shared a very special bond.

They haven't been shown able to see her either. Tifa doesn't see her- she only senses her presence. Marlene senses her, but doesn't see her either. None of the others mention her. So where do you get the impression that they can see her too when they have given no sign of it?

Do you have solid proof for this? It is never stated that Aerith can show herself to just anyone.

As I already pointed out, children are sort of the exception to the rule. Pure souls that are already in touch with the Lifestream and spirits. Aerith is shown to have a connection to children as well.

It doesn't include them either. Out of all the books and documents that have been released, Cloud is the only group member to have been stated to be able to see Aerith at that point in time. Unless you have a quote or something that says otherwise?

I just have a thing about the JP translation you mentioned above, Strife's Maiden..
There IS a reason why most fans have no doubt that Aerith is the one Cloud was referring in the end of FF7. You seemed to only take words from S-E for granted, then I happened to have one: :D

FF7 Ultimania Omega (Tifa's file page, p. 27)

After Cloud settled the fight with Sephiroth, Tifa consults Cloud while they're escaping from the deepest cave of the big crater, which is going to collaspe. Cloud says that he begins to understand the meaning of the "Promise Land" and he thinks he can meet her there. Hearing this, Tifa smiles at him and says "Let's go meet her." The "her" here of course refers to Aerith. As for the "Promise Land"....?

ps: sorry I'm lazy in browsing my previous scan of this page, plz dun mind. D:

And my suggestion is to post the exact quote/link/source everytime you say "the creator/Nomura says"; unless that is some subject that had been discussed here before, or I will take it as another "I say."

........

Sorry but those two are very "I think" way of sayings. Like you said before, you won't trust that C/A will meet again unless "the creator makes a clear statement," then what proof you have to make conclusions like this? I'd be very thankful if you can share. : )

Do you have AC DVD at hand? Play disc2 and watch that interivew again. Nomura's statement starts with "As for Cloud...." Well, the conversation and the question was about CLOUD at that moment. IMO, nobody knows if the party and the kids are meant to be excluded, no one will cuz the question is never about other characters in the first place.
But my point is, we support an idea becuz it's from the creator's mouth, other than that, it goes to "open to your interpretation." It's like we know from Ultimania that Cloud is fond of his Fenrir, but we don't know if he also loves photographing or other stuffs because S-E never tells us. If you have any scene from the film that, in your viewpoints, will hint the whole group can see Aerith, just point it out and let's discuss then.

Urgh, this thread makes me look bad as a Clerith! Still though, I hold plot over pairing, and I can't stop til I'm satisfied.

I never said Geostigma causes depression. But believing you are going to die does.The developers have said that Cloud is happy. The happier he gets, the more afraid he gets. Geostigma was his breaking point. That's when he gave up, gave in to guilt and depression. There's a two-year timespan before he gives up.

Yes. The party saw her after the events of the game. You can't say that they can't see her in AC simply because they don't. Until the creators say otherwise, you must assume nothing has changed. I haven't seen Cloud singled out. Even without the change, Kadaj's expression and the fact that he reaches for something indicates that he saw something. Your claim that children are an exception isn't backed up by the creators, and is never hinted at. That means it's an unfounded assumption. If you can provide a source, great.

Sorry if the way I worded that was hard to understand. I wasn't saying that Cloud and Aerith don't have a special bond. They do. But it isn't their bond that lets her been seen by him. What I was saying was that you assume the children asr special, but this claim isn't supported by anything. No statements from creators, nothing in the film itself.

It's implied that she can more than it's implied she can't. First we have the general, plural statement that the dead live on in the living, and that's why people can see the dead. The children see her. Kadaj is strongly implied to have seen something. Aerith's hand. Why ask me for proof when at least what I debate is implied? The children can see her, the party has seen her. I can leave out Kadaj and it still holds. Aerith showing herself at the end of VII was for the party's benefit. She was telling them that it was taken care of. They needed, wanted the planet's answer. They wanted to see her again. She gave them both. She doesn't appear again until AC, when the world, and Cloud, needs her. Cloud is the only one able to face Sephiroth in battle. But Cloud wouldn't fight. So Aerith showed him the way.

Isn't this a theory? Who decided they were an exception? Aerith is shown to have the same connection to the children as all the dead have to the living. Cloud isn't special in this regard. I don't argue that Cloud and Aerith have a special bond, but their bond isn't what makes him able to see her. It doesn't exclude other people.

Out of all the books and documents? Cloud is the only one that sees(not that can possibly see) Aerith in AC. Out of the party. You can't tell me that the children are special without proof, then tell me to provide proof for something that's implied. They saw her at the end of VII. That means they have the ability to see her. If it's been shown that they can(end of Maiden), and never said they couldn't, then the logical assumption is that if she had a reason, Aerith could appear to any of the party members again. It's default. You prove to me that they can't see her. As in looking in her direction and seeing nothing but air. Doesn't isn't the same as can't.

Just poking in, really. I'm not nearly as knowledgable on quotes here, haha.

Right. But they had plenty of opportunities to do so---why didn't they see Aerith when they were fighting Bahamut SIN, like Cloud did? Why didn't they see/feel Aerith in the church at the end when she was just behind them? Why didn't she show herself to them too, if they were so close to each other?

Also, if Aerith could show herself to everyone, or all the AVALANCHE members specifically, why doesn't she? Why not just hang out and talk to them all like the good old days? Why do they have to wear pink ribbons in memory of her when they can just talk to her every few weeks? And if they have seen her, why not talk to Cloud about it?

Lolz. The hand reach scene (at FF7 & AC), the scene in the City of the Ancients, after the explosion, and the end of AC are so not Cloud being singled out. ^_^ Cloud is the only one with these many scenes with her. What do you think that means?

Similarly, Cloud is the ONLY ONE who goes out looking for her, as if he can still see her. Why won't the others go too, if they had a chance at seeing her? Why is he the only one in the Calling video, seemingly looking for her?

But there's nothing definite that he sees Aerith. Unlike with Cloud, where we see Aerith clearly manifested and represented, all we see is him looking and talking to air. He doesn't even know it's Aerith, and just assumes this comforting presence was "mother" by her voice, I believe.

Why not? It's often heard of that children are sensitive with spirits---why not put up something like that in a fantasy game?

When Tifa looks up at the drop of water in the Highwind? She talks to Aerith, but Aerith doesn't manifest. She doesn't see Aerith---she just feels her, similar to how Kadaj does. Oh, wasn't Tifa close to Aerith as well? Obviously not as close as Cloud was.

EDIT:
Actually, when I think about it, there's nothing very definite the children can see Aerith, because when you see Aerith with the children, it's through Cloud's POV. At the least, they can feel and hear her though, which (at the least, again) hints that they are sensitive to spirits.

So of all things, if only Cloud can truly see her, I think that makes things A LOT more special between the two of them.

:lmao: Sorry, but I instantly thought of druggie!Cloud. *dies*

How do you know the party saw Aerith after the events of the game? I assume that you're referring to Aerith pictured in the sky at the end of FFVII after the Lifestream saved the Planet. Yes, the player saw her in the sky at the end of the game, but was it ever stated that the whole party saw her? If not, then you're simply making an assumption that the whole party saw her.

Actually, Aerith talking to Kadaj was mentioned under a section called Production Notes in the Reunion Files. Sorry, I don't have a page number, but perhaps someone who has the book can find it. Here's the translation I was given:

Originally, the scene with Kadaj talking to Aerith after Sephiroth fell wasn't included. However, they decided to add this scene in late in the production because they wanted to give Kadaj a scene of salvation, as they felt that he was a character who needed to be saved too.

In the first place, it only says that Kadaj talked with Aerith. It doesn't say that Kadaj saw her. In the second place, the whole reason SE included that scene was to portray Kadaj as having received salvation, not to portray that Kadaj has a bond of any sort with Aerith. In the third place, since Kadaj was dying at the moment he hears Aerith, his soul is already starting to join the Lifestream, which is most likely the reason he can hear her.

I don't believe the children can see Aerith because they have a special bond with her. I would think it's because children are "less detached" (for lack of a better term) from the Lifestream than adults. Bugenhagen tells us in FFVII that children are blessed with Spirit Energy when they are brought into the world, and Spirit Energy comes from the Lifestream itself.

Young children are often depicted as hearing, seeing, and/or sensing Aerith's presence after her death in FFVII as well as in AC. For example, remember Marlene saying, "The Flower Girl?" as the Lifestream approached at the end of FFVII? And when Cloud reappears in the pool outside the Church near the end of AC, a child says, "It's like she said. Wait here and Cloud will come back". So the child heard Aerith speaking to her.

Since Bugenhagen said that children are blessed with Spirit Energy when they're brought into the world, it seems to me that their connection to the Lifestream is less distinct than that of adults, who have been "separated" from it longer.

As for Cloud, you have to remember that his body is Mako-enriched. Since Mako is the Lifestream, Cloud therefore has a higher concentration of the Lifestream in his body than the average human being. Since Aerith's spirit is made up of Spirit Energy, or the Lifestream, the higher concentrations of it in his body would make it easier for him to sense any visual manifestation of the Lifestream than humans without such high concentrations of Mako in their bodies.

The immediate question then comes to mind as to why Cloud is the only SOLDIER who's apparantly able to see Aerith? Well, Cloud is different from other SOLDIERs, right? ;) If you want, I'll discuss that aspect of it in a later post. However, it hinges on the fact that Cloud did not fit the standards generally looked for to qualify as a SOLDIERs

----------------

As for whether the other adults can see Aerith in AC, there is no indication that they can. For example, when Aerith boosted Cloud during the Bahamut fight, the other party members weren't shown saying anything like, "Look! It's Aerith!". Don't you think at least one of the party would have said something to that effect if they did indeed see her?

As another example, what about the scene shown in my sig? Cloud sees Aerith in the Church as he's standing in the pool of water, and starts walking toward her. Cloud had just returned from the dead, and he's the center of everyone's attention. Don't you think anyone would have looked to see where Cloud was going? Not a single reaction was shown from any of the other party members in reaction to Aerith being there. If they had indeed seen Aerith in the doorway of the Church at that moment, why weren't any of them shown smiling in reaction to seeing her, or anything like that?

As another example, after Cloud defeats Sephiroth in AC, Aerith casts Great Gospel and Tifa says this:

[ Tifa looks up and sees Aeris' limit break ]
Tifa: Somehow, I knew you were there. Thank you.

Tifa says that somehow she knew Aerith was there, which clearly implies that Tifa only knows that Aerith is there due to Great Gospel being cast. If Tifa knows that Aerith is there only because Aerith's limit break has been cast, then Tifa hasn't seen her.

For the Bahamut Sin thing, she was inside the ball of energy with Cloud. And anyway, if you guys can make assumptions with no proof to back them up, then so can I. You say the children are exceptions, and that the crew can't see her based on nothing, so maybe I'll just assume that they did see Aerith reaching for Cloud's hand. Fair, isn't it? I hold by the fact that Aerith appeared speciffically to Cloud in AC, because the film was about him, his issues, and his need for closure. Also, Cloud wears a ribbon to. In honor of Aerith's memory, just like everyone esle. Do they ever say they didn't talk to Cloud about it? It isn't shown, is it? Just like it isn't shown that Cloud met Aerith in that flowerfield. Be fair. Everything in the film implies that it's Aerith appearing to Cloud. Herself. And that he has the ability to see her, like everyone else does, but cause the dead live on. If Cloud can see Zack, who everyone seems to forget, then how could the party not see Aerith? The nature of their bond is the same. Friends and allies.

Those aren't examples proving that Cloud is singled out as the one one, with the exception of random children, that can see and communicate with Aerith. Those scenes indicate a special bond, which they obviously have. But the two don't go hand in hand.

Show me proof that he was looking for her, not an assumption. Show me where in Calling he gave any indication of looking for Aerith. Picking a flower as a reminder isn't conclusive evidence. It's an asumption made because of a preference.

The script says he reaches for a hand he sees. For one thing, the script has a few minor details changed, but the intent remains the same. If there were drastic changes, then why would they release it without an udate. The script was released with the film, as a companion. To refer to if you wanted a scene cleared up and stuff like that. Show me where the intent was changed in the script before you disregard it as false.

So it's ok to assume then? It's not something they mention in the story. And if children as sensitive to it, why wasn't Tifa able to see her mother? Why not Cloud his father? You say there are sensitive with spirits, but how does that single Aerith out? I doubt all children just gained a sixth sense when Aerith became the planet's will. Explain it for me. Without assumptions.

Has there ever been any indication that there are levels here? As in, if your friends, you can sense me, if you're in love with me, you can see, speak, and touch me. No. It says the dead live on through those still alive, and that's what makes it possible for them to be seen. Every encounter was instigated by Aerith. She appears. If she can appear to Cloud, and then disappear, with him unable to se her, then that indicates that Aerith appears and disappears at will.

Ok, so now the children didn't see her? They only felt and heard her? That puts them on the same level as the party. And the party was able to see her. And nothing indicates that Aerith couldn't appear to them again. The movie's about Cloud. His need for forgiveness and closure. There is no reason for the party to see her. But that doesn't mean they can't, obviously. Aerith appeared to them when she had a reason to. Show me where she couldn't do it again if it was nessessary.

Bleh, I don't really feel like debating the subject now, but:

Aly -- Reunion Files Pg. 117 -- "Initially, the church scene was placed immediatly after Sephiroth's defeat. None of the sequences with Kadaj were there, such as the scene where Kadaj feels Aerith's presence and disappears into the rain. We wanted to make Kadaj someone who also needed salvation. I'm glad that this part made it into the movie." (Nomura)

Nowhere does it say that Kadaj actually saw Aerith. :fish:

End of Maiden. It's clearly written. Besides, why would they take us out of the game that way? Geez. Maybe in a not so important part, but the game's ending?

The script says it. Kadaj reaches for a hand he sees. The intent hasn't changed. And in ACComplete, which will be thirty minutes longer, Aerith's is supposed to be reflected in his eyes.

Yes, children are born with spirit energy. Not a special ability to see dead people. It says that nothing can exist without spirit energy, and that's why children being born are blessed with it. Don't take it out of context. Never does it state, because it isn't true, that children are special in this regard. It simply staes that the dead can be seen by the living because they live on in them.

Aerith in the church, for one thing, is a glitch. If that's what you're referring to. You can see her ghost before she ever dies. Don't the others hear her too at some point? And no one has explained to me how they can see her in FFVII, and lose that ability over two years, even though the ribbon is proof that they all still cherish her.

Again, spirit energy composes everything. You can't exist without it. There is nothing to indicate that children are special, and it's already been generally stated that it's possibly to see dead people because they live on. Where did it ever say a strong bond was required? I understand that the spirits themselves wouldn't just want to appear to any random person, and that a non-Cetra has less of a chance of making it at all. Everyone has the ability to see a spirit, if the spirit has the inclination and will to show themselves. Elmyra couldn't summon her husband. He was trying to appear to her, but didn't have the will to keep his own energy separate from the rest of the lifestream. Aerith, being a Cetra, does, and chooses to appear to Cloud. Wasn't this clear from playing the game and watching AC?

Do the creators ever say this? Does the game say this? If not, it's just a theory, and it's not something I have to disprove.


As for the last bit, it's already been implied that Aerith appears at her own will. When she chooses, and to whom. All people have the innate ability to see a spirit. It's because everything is made up of spirit energy, so basically, everything is the same. The never said Cloud's ability to see Aerith is made possible because of a bond, it's said that it's because she lives in his consciousness. That ties into the statement given that says, in general, that living people can see the dead because of them living on inside them. I know they have a bond, but the two are separate.

The children support this general statement, the party supports this, and soon to be confirmed or denied, Kadaj. Please stop coming up with theoies about the children. I want facts. In-game, AC, interviews. Substancial stuff. Because based on what we are told, anyone can see a dead person. It's up to the spirit to decide where, when, and who. Given they have the will to manifest.

We are just going around in circles. My points are implied by the game. So outright stated. Your theories are just that, theories. That means the burden of proof is on you guys, not me. Address the children, address the reason why the party supposedly can't see Aerith, rather than just assuming they can't because they don't. Anyway, back it up with some facts. Or don't. I care less and less with every post, so maybe we should just forget the whole thaaaannng.

So he wasn't reflected in her eyes in the original one then? You're referring to something that will sup