A while ago, when I discussed Aerith-bashing at its most brainless with some of the people at LJ on the Hated Character community, I was surprised to find that some of them disliked Aerith due to her reaction to Tseng at the temple.

I think those that say Aerith is 'all sweetness and light' are missing something about her character. Yes, she's kind and friendly, but she also gets annoyed, teases Cloud, stubbornly follows him to Sector Six and ignores him when he tells her to go home, and takes charge during the Wall Market sidequest. Her character is far more than just sweetness.

I responded to the second comment saying that Tseng wasn't exactly a good friend to her, what with him slapping her when she told Tifa that Marlene was safe, but she just responded that Aerith still called him a friend so shouldn't have left him to die.

What do you guys think of this? Do you think it's a valid point? Could Aerith have done more to save Tseng, rather than leaving him there? For what Aerith said to Barret, we can argue that she was trying to help, but what can we say here? :rolleyes:

aeris saw tseng at the temple of the ancients and her first reactions was to cry...she cried because he has hurt..she even told cloud and the others that tseng was with the enemy but she was known him sinec she was a child...i think she could not do anithing...cure spell??
no

why?

i dont know but i think the potions, and the magic doesnt work out the batles..if the clotis blame her for living tseng to die instead of givim him a potion....

WHY CLOUD HAS NOT GAVE AERIS A PHOENIX DOWN? <_<

You might ask her where Aerith called Tseng a friend... since she never did. ;) She did acknowledge knowing Tseng for a long time, but she never called him a friend.

We're shown a flashback of Tseng at Elmyra's house trying to take her back to Hojo's lab. That's when Elmyra learned that Aerith was an Ancient. If Tseng was trying to take her back to the lab, then he was most likely one of those Turks who tried to capture her for a number of years. As you pointed out, Tseng also slapped her back into the helicopter, which shows that they weren't exactly on friendly terms. Since Tseng was in the helicopter and Elmyra said that Aerith had exchanged herself for Marlene to the Turks, then we have to assume that Tseng was in the party of Turks who accepted those conditions. If Tseng was a friend to Aerith, why didn't he help her escape from Hojo's lab? Why was Tseng responsible for her imprisonment, if they were friends?

If anything, Aerith's tears for Tseng show that she was capable of feeling compassion even for a long-term enemy. Secondly, I don't know why people assume that Tseng died there - weren't other Turks at the ToA who could help him, such as Elena? <_<

Because Phoenix Downs do not resurrect. Phoenix Downs revive a character who has been knocked out, not killed.

1) What Anastar said. :lol:

2) They hate Aeris because she isn't little Miss Perfect? I thought that is why many people DID hate her. :blink:

I feel sorry for Square and them trying to please everyone.

I agree with you, Madame. It seems to me like a lot of people start to dislike Aeris when she shows complexity of character and flaws, and that's something I don't understand. She not supposed to be "sweet and kind"; she's not supposed to be anything except herself. A lot of gamers don't seem able to grasp this; that she's a character, not some cardboard cut-out.

IMHO, Aeris was never portrayed as this saintly personification of sweetness and kindness - she's a complex and rounded character. She's a kind and decent person, filled with empathy and insight, but she's still human and makes mistakes, and she feels emotions that aren't "all sweetness and light", like we all do. It's just that she gets past them quickly - at Wutai she's just as annoyed and angry as the rest of the party that Yuffie makes off with their materia, but she forgives Yuffie very quickly. At Gold Saucer, she's really fuming when she finds out that Cait Sith has betrayed everyone, but by the Temple of the Ancients, she's forgiven him and is very sweet and kind to him. If you go to Fort Condor straight after leaving the Mithril Mine, listen to their story and then refuse to help (yeah, I did this once...I was feeling mean...), Aeris will get really mad and call Cloud a stupid jerk. :lol: But I don't see her holding any grudges against him because of it. She's no less flawed than any other character; she feels negative emotions just like everyone else; it's just that she knows to let go of them, and isn't the sort of person to stay mad at anyone - she's compassionate and forgiving, but this doesn't make her perfect.

With Barret, she thinks that making him react emotionally rather than leaving him to bottle up what he feels is the best thing to do. Unfortunately, she's wrong. I don't see how this makes her a bad person. She was only trying to help, but it backfired. Maybe she should've left well alone but the fact that she didn't, and that she did what she thought was best, isn't a sign of selfishness or insensitivity. And Barret clearly doesn't hold a grudge against her for it.

I've heard a lot of people have a go at Aeris for her reaction to Tseng at the Temple of the Ancients too, but to me her reaction seemed totally natural. What a lot of people forget about Aeris is that when things get too emotional and personal for her, she backs away and distances herself (think Cosmo Canyon). She does withdraw quite a bit when she's feeling the most. She hides a lot of her feelings and internal struggles, and I think that's exactly what's going on here. She just follows her own advice and tries to act normal. But she does feel sadness and loss, and she does cry for Tseng - she doesn't leave him to die with nothing, she lets him know that he meant something to her. I was actually very touched by the fact that Aeris cried for him, as I wasn't expecting it at all (Cloud seems surprised by her reaction as well). We'll never know all the ins-and-outs of her relationship with Tseng, so we'll never know how appropriate her response is, but I was very moved by her reaction as it was.

Because it's his job. :ph43r: And whatever he felt for Aeris (In the Mithril Mine, he appears glad that she escaped, and wishes her well and at Gongaga, Reno claims that Tseng likes her romantically), he doesn't let it get in the way of his job or let his feelings interfere with his ability to carry out his orders. That's Turk professionalism for you. B) That slap on the helicopter was a bit out of order, though... <_<

And from what Tseng says at the Temple, it seems clear to me that he isn't looking for anyone's pity (maybe Aeris recognised this and that's why she responded the way she did?). Tseng doesn't ask for help and he tells the party to go into the Temple and see for themselves. And I don't think there's anything Aeris could have done to help him - curative materia doesn't work that way. Like Anastar said, a Phoenix Down doesn't actually revive the dead (otherwise no-one would ever die in the FFVII world). Also, don't forget that Tseng was attacked by Sephiroth. People aren't known for surviving that. Tifa only survived because Zangan continually cast healing spells on her and those only kept her hanging on by a thread until he reached Midgar with her - the only place where he could find someone who could help her. Cloud and Zack wouldn't have survived if they hadn't been picked up by Hojo and kept alive for research purposes. So, Aeris can't just slip Tseng a Hi-Potion or use a Limit Break on him or anything like that. I don't think there's anything she could've done for him. And don't forget that Tseng is the leader of the Turks; he probably was in possession of a lot of potions, elixirs, high-level curative spells etc, but they didn't help. But I believe that if there was something Aeris could've done for him, she would've done it, regardless of whether or not he's with Shinra.

Personally, I don't see how this person's response makes Aeris look bad. Tseng isn't exactly the perfect friend but she still acknowledges him. That, to me, makes Aeris look very understanding, loving and forgiving, not insensitive or cruel. After all, Aeris and Elena are the only people in the game who show any grief for Tseng at all. And Aeris' reaction may seem less emotional or hurt than Elena's, but Elena was in love with him. Aeris' response is much more complex than Elena's, and just because her character shows some complexity by acting or responding in ways that the player can't always understand, it doesn't make her horrible, insensitive, self-absorbed or emotionless - it just makes her human. ^_^

I think that Tseng couldn't be revived or healed or anything. If you have ever read The Grand List of RPG Cliches (nerd humor at its finest :lol:), there is a rule that says "Don't expect battle mechanics to carry out into the 'real world'". Although it as a humorous remark, I think they make a valid point. Things like these just pertain to the storyline, it's not supposed to be a reflection on a character's personality. If they had been in a battle, things would be different. If I am making any sense, please tell me. :unsure:

Oh, and the Grand List of RPG cliches can be found here.


Edit: The rule I spoke of is actually called "Mommy, why didn't Cloud just use a Phoenix Down on Aeris?". Don't remember what number it is and I'm too lazeh to look.

Exactly Oddish. Battle stuff NEVER works outside of battle for some reason.
I mean, if it did, then why did Jessie Biggs and Wedge have to die? Couldn't Cloud have just healed them as he tromped up those stairs? Why didn't anyone just use a Pheonix Down on Tifa to wake her up from her coma? That's a stupid reason to dislike a character and they're just grasping at straws

I think Tseng's wound was something fatal that a Materia or a potion couldn't fix. And I think Tseng at that time already accepted the fact that he's dying. Aerith acknowledged these facts. Consider also that Cloud's party were there for greater things, and they really couldn't afford to waste time on an enemy that might turn his back on them. She couldn't do anything else except cry for him.

And yeah, I don't think cures or potions are expected to happen outside of battles. Why, it's kinda like the time when Tifa was sliced by Sephiroth across the chest, me thinks, and Cloud didn't, like, cure her or something (I assume SOLDIERs have materia or potions with 'em, right?) Or when the time Tifa was in a coma, or when Cloud was so dazed that he had to be on a wheelchair, or even Geostigma...!!! Some things are just beyond cures and potions.

Sorry if I got some details wrong. Some parts of the game are blurred already.

I agree with the others and say that Aeris was not perfect and she wasn't the physical form of sweet and niceness.

Also I do not think battle items like potions and Phoenix Downs and stuff like white magic can't be used outside battle. I mean there were tons of times characters could've used that stuff and not just in FF7.

I've played Final Fantasy I & II: Dawn of Souls and in FF2 there were certain situations.

SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING!



















In one part of Final Fantasy 2, Firion, Maria, and Guy find a man named Prince Scott badly injured, they only talked with him and not use a potion or anything like that. Then Scott died, they only mourned him and not a single use of a Phoenix Down or some White Magic. Later in Firion's adventures, his group meets a man named Josef and Josef joins the party. But soon when he tried to save the others, Josef died. The same thing happened as before, no Phoenix Downs or white magic.

Later they meet a man named Cid (yup I'm guessing he's the very first Cid in the Final Fantasy games, I don't know, I haven't gone far on FF1) blah, blah, blah. Continuing on, soon most of the cities are destoryed and many people are killed. Again no Phoenix Downs or White Magic. Soon the party finds Cid extremely injured. No potions or white magic.

After a conversation, Cid dies and wouldn't you know it they didn't BOTHER using a Phoenix Down or some white magic.

END SPOILER WARNING! END SPOILER WARNING!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

(Off-Topic)

Oh I read that List of RPG Cliches. I loved it! It proves that geeks are funnier than jocks and airheaded cheerleaders.

If Aerith just reacted that way to Tseng, well, maybe she already knew by looking at his injury that he couldn't make it so it's useless to try to make him live even for a little while.
If she was stubborn or strange or weird whatsoever, maybe it's just Square's idea of putting Aquarian traits in her (maybe that's why they put Birthdays on their characters so that we can have a clue on how they could really behave based on their signs).

She's not really sweet... No one's completely sweet! Even those claiming to be "sweet" can be fatal. And she's a girl, for crying out loud! Girls are free to change moods and have mood swings and it's still understandable. :P

But I think the point that the Aeris-haters are trying to make is that being stubborn, strange, weird and prone to mood-swings is fine, except when it results in a guy dying because said person just doesn't feel in the mood for healing him. :lol:

But we all know that Aeris isn't like that... ^_^

Edit: I just tracked down the game's script and decided to post the scene here for everyone to see. Feel free to analyse it into the ground! :rolleyes:

(Cloud heads inside the Temple. Inside, they find Tseng slumped against an altar.)
Aeris: "Hey! It's Tseng!"
(Tseng slowly gets to his feet.)
Cloud: "Tseng? Of the Turks?"
Tseng: "Uh... I've been had." (He slumps back down) "It's not the Promised Land... Sephiroth's searching for..."
Cloud: "Sephiroth? He's inside!?"
(Tseng raises an arm toward the altar.)
Tseng: "Look... for yourself..." (His arm falls) "Damn... Letting Aeris go was the start...of my...bad luck... The President...was wrong..."
(Aeris steps forward, hands on her hips)
Aeris: "You're wrong. The Promised Land isn't like what you imagined." (She faces away from all of them) "And, I'm not going to help. Either way, there was no way Shinra could have won." (She goes and stands in a corner.)
Tseng: "...pretty harsh. Sounds like something...you'd say."
(Tseng gets up and hands something to Cloud.)
Tseng: "The Keystone... Place it... on... the altar..."
(You obtain the Keystone.)
(Tseng goes and slumps in another corner. Cloud goes over to Aeris, then faces away from her.)
Cloud: "You crying?"
(Aeris shakes her head and turns around)
Aeris: "...Tseng's with our enemy, the Turks, but I've known him since we were little... There's not a lot of people I can say that about. In fact, there are probably only a handful of people in the world who really know me."
(Cloud and the others go to the altar.)
Cloud: "Let's put the Keystone in."

:lol:

If they hate a character because of the death of others then they should hate their very own Tifa.

Tifa helped destroy the reactors destroying the lives of many.

Clotis are so quick to point out the faults of Aerith but many fail to admit to the faults of Tifa, people dying because of the reactors being destroyed, leaving a four year old child alone in a bar, I'm a Tifa fan but still I don't care if there were reasons for it leaving young children alone is not acceptable and Tifa would face legal action for it in our society because in many places it's against the law, calling Barret a retard, basically telling Red XIII to stfu when he's scared in the Gold Saucer, and of course those that call Tifa the strong independant woman and Aerith the damsel in distress when it was Tifa that got rescued the most.

As for Aerith I have to agree with the people here that say she's not all just sweetness and light. She can be and often is but have you ever noticed that most of the time Aerith only seems to be nice to those that deserve it? To people that oppose the party she isn't so nice and she was pretty mean to Don Corneo :lol: She also got annoyed with Yuffie when Yuffie didn't deserve niceness after she'd stolen everyone's materia ;)

I also fail to see how Aerith's reaction to Tseng in the temple of the ancients was "terrible" She got upset about him didn't she? What's so terrible about that? Not only that she wasn't the only person there. Cloud and the third party member, usually Tifa in my case are also there so they were responsible for their actions during the scene too. Should we hate them now too? The Gold Saucer Barret situation? She was trying to help, yes it back fired but in my mind the situation was no worse than the Tifa and Red XIII situation and even so Tifa seemed a lot more harsher than Aerith, at least Aerith had a playful tone.

I didn't say anything about her not healing him because she's not in the mood to do so. I deem I mentioned that she didn't heal him because she must've felt that it's useless to do so because the wound must've been too fatal. But anyway...

But they're blinded by the truth. Unfortunately. Or maybe they're just in complete denial whatsoever.


...

When Aerith reacted that way to Tseng, it must've been out of confusion; confusion due to the fact that she's supposed to be friends with Tseng but then he's also with ShinRa... :/

I'm sorry Tifa, I wasn't trying to suggest that you actually believed that she didn't heal Tseng because she didn't feel like it! I didn't think that at all! :no: I understood (and agree with) your point that she didn't help because the wound was too fatal for her to do anything; it's just that that the other part of your post kind-of implied that a possible reason for the "terrible reaction" she's been accused of, is that Square gave her Aquarian traits and that these traits were directly responsible for her reaction to Tseng. Reading over your post again, I can see that I misunderstood you, and I'm sorry. :blush:

A very good point, Fury. The reason many fans overlook this is because we never see Tifa commit a crime like this, but she was directly involved in the bombings, and "officially" guilty enough to warrant an execution in Junon. But in the fandon, she's never held responsible for her actions... <_<

I'd forgotten about her response to Red XIII at Gold Saucer as well. I hardly think she responded to his fears in the most supportive way, too. But like Aeris with Barret, I think she meant well but it didn't work out the way she wanted it to.

Tifa's a character whose personality gets trampled on in the fandom, too. I've seen just as many fans characterize Tifa as nothing more a sweet, kind and modest "angel" as fans who do the same with Aeris! When will people wake up and realize that neither girl is perfect, but that you don't need to be be perfect to be a good and likeable character!? -_-

Hmm...this is a criticism against Tifa I've seen a lot, but I think it's hardly fair. Marlene is Barret's responsibility, not Tifa's. Tifa is close to Marlene, but she isn't the legal guardian, and so the big decisions aren't hers to make. It's Barret who ought to think of a safe place to leave his child, not Tifa. I've seen so many people criticise Tifa's irresponsibility because of this instance, but I've never seen anyone think of placing the blame on Barret. He's the one who ought to leave Marlene somewhere safe while he's out killing people, and if his friend's bar is the best place he can think of, that's not Tifa's fault. Barret would be the one facing legal action for it, because he's the one breaking the law and acting irresponsibly with his child's safety. Tifa does figure into it, because she didn't exacly refuse to let Barret leave Marlene at the bar, but the main person to blame is Barret - he's the irresponsible one. <_<

I just realised that I've come off as a bit anti-Barret! :lol: Just letting you know that I don't hate Barret (I actually think he's one of the most underappreciated characters); but he's made a lot of mistakes, and I just like to put blame where it belongs. :P

Anyway, back to the topic! ^_^

Another good point! Could you expand on it a bit? I'd love it if you could explore this point a bit further!

I've heard a few arguments along the lines of: "If she really cared about Tseng at all, she would've stayed with him so that he didn't die alone rather than carry on looking for Sephiroth. She's supposed to be kind and compassionate, but she just leaves him! Some friend!". What do you make of that?

I'd argue that a possible reason why this didn't happen is much the same as why she didn't heal him. The structure of the game doesn't allow it. Aeris staying with Tseng while Cloud and the third character explore the Temple is an unnecesarry complication. The scenes in the Temple can't progress without Aeris, so she needs to stay with the main party. Having her stay behind and catch up with you later impairs this, and the atmosphere built up in the Temple, and it makes the pacing of the sequence very fragmented and pointless. It also gives too much focus on Aeris and Tseng's relationship, which takes away from what the main focus of this sequence ought to be: the fact that Sephiroth is inside the Temple.

So we don't have a more emotional/dramatic reaction (which might be appropriate considering how long she's known him) because it would have a negative effect on the rest of the sequence. If we want Aeris to react differently, that's what fanfiction is for. :rolleyes:

But I like her reaction very much as it is! I honestly don't see what's wrong with it. The fact that she cried moved me, and I don't find her reaction "terrible" at all.

Very true, Fury! There are two other people there, but I suppose Aeris gets blamed because she's closer to Tseng. Actually, Cloud's response strikes me as very unsympathetic - he's preoccupied with Sephiroth and then concerned about Aeris, but he doesn't really have the time of day for a dying Tseng. Maybe because he still remembers seeing that helicopter slap...? :whistle:

The way I see it, what kind of theme is "life" when people can heal any wound, no matter how fatal it is? In that kind of world, would anyone die at all? :blink:

People who think characters should just heal dying characters are degrading the depth of the story. It isn't because of how the character feels about the dying character, it's how the story needs to unfold. I'm sure if everyone healed everyone else in this perfect world these people are dreaming of, Aeris would have at least half healed Tseng and Aeris herself wouldn't have died. But where would the story go if that were the case?

And in another little point: "Why didn't Tifa just cast Esuna or use a Remedy on Cloud when he had Mako poisoning?" OMFG!1 Tifa deosnt love Clod!1 :rolleyes:

Not true... Tifa loves Cloud to bits. Hell that much is obvious throught the course of the whole game. Cloud felt the same way as a kid but as he grew older it became more of a very deep friendship.

Cloud does love Tifa but not "love, love", if you know what I mean...

Heehee, I think you're taking CG's comment a bit too seriously, Lost Mercenary. She's just turning the Aeris-basher's logic against them, that's all. :lol:

I think Aerith was sad for Tseng. Didn't she say that although he's an enemy she practically knew him ever since she was a little girl? One of the few people who knew she was an Ancient (other than Cloud and the others, of course)?

I like the scene where Tseng asked Aerith to take care of herself, and she replied, "Strange coming from you..." that's a sign of familiarity for me.

So despite that he is also the same guy who slaps her, stalks her for the rest of her 15 years, and then taken against her will to ShinRa, the fact that she cried for him shows compassion... not coldness.

Really, what version of FFVII were these people playing?