Sorry for bring up an old topic, but I still found Clotis use this as proof, so, maybe it’s not old after all.. Anyway, I want to offer an alternative thought to this topic; the so-called Yin-Yang symbol between Cloud and Tifa, which was (Clotis claim) they formed together in the church in AC.. Before anything, take note that I'm not an expert about what this 'essay' of mine is about.. So, if you found something mistakes from this, I hope you could point it out.. This 'essay' come from my findings, online and books.. And now I feel like I'm a fan of symbolism.. Well, I've treasured this theory for a very long time, because I'm afraid to tell anyone.. Yeah, I've a few theories, but I consider them as stupid.. I don't know, maybe mostly because they're really small and unimportant, or my English is poor, or it's just me.. Now I feel like I want to post all of my theories, one by one because it's one of my resolutions for 2008, posting more opinion in pinky forum.. hehheh.. geezzzz.. Enough rambling.. If I make so many mistakes of vocabulary or grammar in this post, please forgive me.. I seriously really try so hard to explain my opinions, although I'm super bad at explaining..


In my opinion, most happened in AC were not coincidences.. They have meaning behind them.. So do the 'Cloud and Tifa lying together in the church' scene.. Well, it's basically how we interpret the story.. Anyway, I must bring Nomura's quote first for this matter..
From FFVII:AC Prologue Book, 3Ns interview:
Nomura : "AC is piece of work made by Japanese people. In Hollywood movies, I think there is a tendency where the meaning of all the scenes have to be expressed clearly but, this isn't something like that. With our work, the viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy it. The staff has their own answers to all the scenes in the movie such as the angel statue that makes an appearance many times. But, even if someone who have watched it interprets it differently then that is just another answer. I guess "comparing answers" with friends is one of the ways you can enjoy the movie. I think AC is a movie that makes those who have watched it, want to talk about it with others."
Source: http://one.xthost.info/ffwebnovel/, in Prologue Book & Interview section..

I want to share my finding about the so-called Yin-Yang symbol between Cloud and Tifa, in the church, specifically on the 'Cloud and Tifa lying together' part.. It seemed so wrong.. It looked like a symbol, but to easily say it definitely Yin-Yang? I don't think so.. I know(we all know) there's no way a Yin-Yang symbol in that scene.. I really wonder when I saw Clotis said they found a Yin-Yang shape like Cloud & Tifa formed there is only and definitely showing romantic connection.. Yet, they didn't even provide proof.. I know, we know, it's wrong.. Firstly, it was not even a Yin-Yang shape to begin with..
Secondly, Yin-Yang is not always shown as a shape, there are other ways to depicts Yin-Yang..
Thirdly, Yin-Yang doesn't necessarily indicates romantic love.. It can, but it also can use to indicates other relationships or connections in the Universe as well... Please, don’t turning this religious symbol into something easy like that..

YIN-YANG
~From reference.com:
”Yin and yang are generalizations of the anthesis or mutual correlation between certain objects or phenomena in the natural world, combining to create a unity of opposites. Liang Yi also known as Yin and Yang or heaven and earth, have a similar meaning.
The dual concepts of yin and yang which describe two primal opposing but complementary principles or cosmic forces said to be found in all non-static objects and processes in the universe. This paradoxical concept is the cornerstone of most branches of Chinese philosophy, as well as traditional Chinese medicine.”
[unity of opposites=a situation in which the existence or identity of a thing (or situation) depends on the co-existence of at least two conditions which are opposite to each other, yet dependent on each other and presupposing each other, within a field of tension.]
Free Encyclopedia of Thelema

The most important thing to remember about Yin-Yang is it's not simply about love or differences, but it's about two OPPOSITE natures that create balance.. It’s actually deeper.. Some good articles:
http://www.yinyangnature.com/yinyang.html
http://168fengshui.com/blog/2005/08/05/yin-and-yang-theory/


Yin-Yang???? No, of course.. Because..
---From cinematography-wise:
1)Lighting wasn't made to depicts the symbol..
2)Their clothing's color were similar; dark-mostly black..
3)Their condition, also similar.. They both injured and unconscious..
4)Their position, also wasn’t made to depict the symbol.. If we look closely, it's quite obvious that Cloud's position(especially his legs) was made to be quite far from Tifa, made a blank space between he and Tifa.. And it looked most likely a "T" shape.. If SE want to made it to be a Yin-Yang symbol, they were failed, IMO..
---Or from (hidden)traits/characteristic-wise:
-Well, I couldn’t find any opposite between them.. Could you?
If a scene was made to be a Yin-Yang symbol, there must be something that makes it looks like the Yin-Yang symbol, in at least whether one of the elements from cinematography-wise or (hidden)traits/characteristic-wise, in opposite states.. Which means it must contains two things/existences complementary opposites, not different or similar..

Check out a few examples about the Yin-Yang symbol(position-forming shape) from various animes that I’ve found.. These are examples which I assume similar to what Clotis might tried to imply to that CXT's scene:
1) Carossa & Melissa (Sorry,this pic is not clear, taken by HP) - From GunXSword..
This is the real yin-yang, see how perfect their positions make a Yin-Yang symbol.. And they were TWIN(male-female), with opposite personalities although they have the same looks and ending..
2)Saya&Diva - From Blood+..
This TWIN also have similarities(duh!), but complete opposite..
3)Kurau&Christmas - From Kurau..
This is also the almost perfectly formed Yin-Yang shape, they were also some kind of twins or pair(two energy entities, to be exact), and they were also have opposites in ways.. Actually the relationship between these two is far more complex.. But, if you have interest to know, read this review..

(Lighting)

^This is from 1999's anime called The Big O.. I think this is the best usage of Yin-Yang so far, with a perfect used of lighting/cinematography.. If interested, read the discussion here:
http://www.paradigm-city.com/forums/thread...htuser=0&page=1

~~These examples prove that Yin-Yang is not necessarily indicates romantic love, like Clotis always claimed.. It actually depends on how the storyline goes, or how that characters relationship shown.. Try compared these to CxT’s scene one, and we can see that CxT's scene was not even a Yin-Yang shape to begin with..
But anyway, this shape always shown to depict a "complete opposites, but complementary to each other although have minor similarities(mutual correlation)" relationship, with a connection like Yin-Yang, I assume we also can use it to indicates "in mutual correlation(have something in common), but from that, emerge complementary opposites"..

***Why I used ANIMEs to be examples? Because, clearly, it’s the best simplest way.. Most animes(but not all) use symbolism, as examples above.. Japanese love to use symbolism, even as small as character's names, like we found in FFVII the compilation..

Actually, we also can use the Yin-Yang for Aerith vs Sephiroth; yeah, there's one connection between these two characters.. It symbolized by their elements, water & fire, holy & meteor.. Like I've said before, Yin-Yang not necessarily indicates romantic relationship.. It depends on how the storyline goes, or how that characters relationship shown.. As for Aerith & Sephiroth, good vs evil, that's the perfect way to explain their connection.. They not even being good to each other, you get what I mean? Sephiroth destroys, Aerith heals.. In Cloud’s case, Sephiroth is his darkness and Aerith is his light.. Sephiroth gave him sadness/pain, Aerith gave him happiness/health..
From Reunion Files:
Nojima: "Since Sephiroth exists, Aerith must exist. There was no doubt about that one (laughs)."
Aerith and Sephiroth’s connection is a Yin-Yang for Cloud especially and FFVII’s world generally.. Without Aerith, what Sephiroth destroys can’t be healed, and vice versa..

However, Yin-Yang can be used to represent love.. Some good articles..
Yin-Yang = LIGHT-LOVE
Yin-Yang and love compatibility
Yin-Yang usually used as to show relationship between lovers in many animes, games or even movies, BUT not simply shown as a Yin-Yang shape/pattern like examples above, but hidden.. There's so many of them.. If you're a fan of animes/games (especially action/ninja/warrior/samurai or "history-period" genre), you'll found this kind of relationship between two lovers: "complete complementary opposites to each other", like the Yin-Yang.. It always symbolized by their clothes, personalities, traits, qualities, strength, etc.. That’s why (for example) heroines always shown as weak physically, but strong mentally and great healer(or something similar to that), while heroes usually shown as strong physically, but weak mentally. Heroes protect their love interests(heroines) and fight while heroines heal hero’s wounds from that fight and also make their mental stronger.. That makes they complete opposites, complementing each other and dependent on each other..

A few examples from tons of examples usage of the Yin-Yang, in various ways to indicates love relationship:
1) Kenshin & Tomoe = From Rurouni Kenshin OVA (Samurai X)
2)Squall-Rinoa, Zidane-Garnet, Tidus-Yuna = From Final Fantasy series <~ FF_Goddess page, thank you!

If there's anything like this kind of Yin-Yang in FF7, it's blatantly Cloud and Aerith..
That is what I was trying to say in this thread.. Just gazing at those CG art of Cloud and Aerith, you'll get the true Yin-Yang.. Complete opposites, so complement to each other.. In special way..
~From pandapedia.com:
”In Chinese philosophy the yin and yang are generalized descriptions of the antitheses or mutual correlations in human perceptions of phenomena in the natural world, combining to create a unity of opposites in the theory of the ‘Taiji’. The term ‘liang yi’ , also known as yin and yang or heaven and earth, has a similar meaning.”

Like Cloud & Aerith, I suppose, but differs from Aerith & Sephiroth, or Cloud & Sephiroth.. They both have similarities, the messed and lonely childhood.. That’s made a mutual correlations.. But, aside from that, what they have, almost everything were opposites.. Exactly like the Yin-Yang..
It always symbolized by, for example.. Color of clothing(see all compilation);Aerith with bright/bland-happy kind of color, and Cloud with dark-gloomy kind of color..
Yeah, they have similarity, but from that, emerge two complete opposite kinds of people..

Accidentally, this quote quite explains Cloud and Aerith's relationship:
~From http://choosehealthnow.info/yin-yang-compatibility.html:
“The most common and natural attraction of opposites is between the introvert and extrovert. Like the attraction between Yin and Yang, introverts and extroverts recognize in one another the qualities and traits they require for balance."...."All relationship combinations can work if people understand the temperament dynamics and are willing to make adjustments as required. Whether it is a nation, a company, or a personal relationship, strength and balance are found in our complementary differences, not in our similarities.”


(this is pure pointless speculation, ignore it if you don’t like)
------------I think it’s interesting when looking at their CG arts for AC.. While Cloud&Aerith got an opposite CG renderings, the Sephiroth one not.. Obviously(if counts SE wants to gave a hint from CG arts) Cloud & Aerith’s bond/connection are more special than Aerith & Sephiroth, or Cloud & Sephiroth..
Besides, we even get one story if we merge these three CG arts.. Put these 3 CG arts together, and we(ok, no, it’s just me) also can get:
Sephiroth staring at Cloud & Aerith with smirk(because he killed Aerith to makes Cloud suffer, and he succeed on that), Cloud looks weigh down by something (because he suffer from losing something important, you know..) and Aerith calm with a little smile(because she still with Cloud even after she dead).. OMG.. It's rather scary though..---------------------------------------------------


-------------------------------------------------- MY THEORY ---------------------------------------------------------

THREESOME?
(No, no, nu uh, throw away that dirrrty images from head!! :lol: )
What if this scene shown the connection between all three of them? Yes, everyone but Clotis knew, this is not new.. What I mean is, the special relationship between them.. OK, let me start with what SE said about this scene..

From Reunion Files:
"There's some foreshadowing that the church is where Aerith is going to appear,"says Nojima. "There's a point in the plot where Cloud and Tifa are lying unconscious on the flowers here and their wounds are healed. Also, Aerith has a sort of 'watery' image about her, so we used water to convey her presence."

I mean, SE always reinforced that there are three of them there; Cloud, Tifa and Aerith.. Considering that all we saw in this scene, when 'Water' theme played was from Aerith's eyes, we can assume that Aerith did approach them before she floats.. The nearest and longest(time) spot she approached them was here(as shown in pink spot; blank space), and her sight when she was there is shown in that small pic..

It's the perfect spot to complete them three, make a situation that symbolize the 'threesome' relationship of them, represents the Japanese symbol; MITSU TOMOE (Mitsudomoe)

--various arts/sketches of Mitsu Tomoe—
~From dreamworlds.us/encyclopedia:
”Created from three joined tomoe, the mitsu tomoe is a popular symbol in Japan. Some view the mitsu tomoe as representative of the threefold division (Man, Earth, & Sky) at the heart of the Shinto religion.
Originally, it was associated with the Shinto war deity Hachiman, and through that was adopted by the samurai as their traditional symbol. The mitsu tomoe has been used in Japanese family crests (kamon) and corporate logos, and is a traditional symbol of Okinawa. Jeju-do's flag has a mitsu tomoe on it, as did the Ryūkyū Kingdom's flags.”
http://www.dreamworlds.us/Mitsu_tomoe/
~From penninetaichi.co.uk:
"Symbolically it can be seen as representing all trinities such as Heaven – Earth – Humanity, also the life cycle of Birth – Life – Death"
~From altreligion.about.com:
“A mitsu (triple) Tomoe reflects the threefold division of Shinto cosmology, and is said to represent the earth, the heavens, and humankind.”

Further informations about this symbol, where it came from, etc..:
http://www.nihonbunka.com/shinto/trinity.htm
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/boe/boe19.htm

Unlike Yin-Yang which symbol that has some important priciples to be fulfilled when we want to use it(especially the shape and complementary opposite part), Mitsu Tomoe is quite simpler.. As long as three existances that correlating one another join in one situation.. It will makes a Mitsu Tomoe.. So technically, Aerith doesn’t need to lying like Cloud and Tifa to make this symbol.. In this TxAxC’s scene case, it makes sense.. Man/Humanity/Humankind , Earth & Sky/Heaven DO sounds like Tifa, Aerith & Cloud to me..

****For those who didn't know why Aerith=earth..
Aeris (Aerith) Gainsborough (Gast)
The Latin word "aeris" translates into "air; atmosphere; cloud; aether".

-"Air" and "atmosphere": this seems to be an allusion to Aeris’ connection to nature and her importance to the planet. Without air and an atmosphere, there would be no life. C.f. her first Limit Break, the "Healing Wind".
~The translation "cloud" implies that there is some kind of mystical connection between Aeris and Cloud Strife; like Cait Sith says, they are "made for each other".
~"Aerith" is an anagram of "I Earth"
~The word Aeris is pronounced similarly to "heiress", which aptly illustrates Aeris’ role as the last Cetra and the rightful heir to the planet.****
Source:Final Fantasy characters name origins


Example usage of the symbol in anime:
http://hakubaikou.com/contributors/wombat/mitsutomoe04.html

Mitsu Tomoe also known as the World Triad
From crossroad.to/Books/symbols1:
“Originally an oriental symbol, it was "adopted by western Gnostics as an emblem of cosmic creativity, the threefold nature of reality or fate, and the eternally spiraling cycles of time... In Japan it was maga-tama or mitsu tomoe, the world soul....” “Like the Yin Yang , it also represents eternity.”

Hmmmm.. Eternity, huh... That’s why Clotis want their couple to be like Yin-Yang so much.. :D

So, for conclusion.. In my opinion, SE use ‘Mitsu Tomoe’ in this scene to indicates their “threesome” relationship.. And it was explained by what happened afterwards.. Although they have complicated feelings towards each other, they still managed to combined, do something complicated together.. I’ll try to explain it as best as I can..

Begun from Aerith heals Cloud and Tifa.. That leads to Tifa finally managed to nag.. errr.. scold.. errr.. advice Cloud to beat his fear..(Oh, Aerith also encourage him to fight his fear or guilty back, didn't she?).. Means, Tifa finally get to 'advice' Cloud literally and Aerith also did it spiritually.. Then Cloud go fighting, for save the kids.. The continuity of they playing their roles each, leads to accomplish difficult mission, together..
It makes a connection like the 'Mitsu Tomoe'.. Like "play of forces in the cosmos"(altreligion.about.com).. Something like that..

Or maybe to indicates their love triangle?? hmmmm.. Who knows.. It’s another interesting possibility, I guess.. I'm just offering alternative thoughts, BTW..

Oh yeah, sorry for super long rambling above, originally, I just want to post about threesome, but it turns out like this.. :D

What do you think?

Woooah! That's a lot of stuff to digest all at once. xD

But, I think you did a good job with all that analyzing!

I just think that that's a pretty silly thing to use in a debate as "evidence". Cloud x Tifa formed Yin-Yang?! xDD It's kind of a fun thing to look at, but I think you have the right to scoff at anyone who actually tries to bring that to the table. xP

So, good job countering the over-analyzers. xD

Great post, Sha! I don't think their Yin and Yang because don't you think it would have been mentioned at least once if it were really what that scene was about? That scene was focusing on Aerith healing Cloud and Tifa. Not the Yin and Yang symbol which is just pathetic. :lmao:

Yin and Yang implies opposites.

The problem with Cloud and Tifa is, they're virtually the same. Very nearly identical.

There's actually more of a yin yang in my sig then there is in Cloud and Tifa injured...

OK, considering the actual author intent of that scene was actually Aerith healing Cloud and Tifa lying on the flowers, well... I really don't buy the yin yang theory.

If that scene really does meant to be Yin-Yang, then SE would failed at cinematics.

Wow, I like your theory, sha! The Mitsu Tomoe is begging for a fanart of those three.

Great work Sha! :gift: Your essay about yin/yang and how Cloud/Tifa do not represent them was nice reading. You certainly did your homework. :D Here is an interesting fact about yin/yang (one must have a balance of yin and yang to be a healthy person. If one has too much yin/yang they can become ill and it suddenly reverse.)

If anyone has any questions about yin/yang or would like me to explain anything about it post them or PM me. (Being Chinese I've grown up with these concepts.)

No need for PM Angelwing. Type your interpretation of the yin-yang here since this is what's the topic's about. It'll be an interesting read.

:blush: Thank you, guys! :huggle: I'm glad you like my 'essay' although I think it's kinda messy.. To be completely honest, I have a strange feeling before I post this.. I'm afraid that I'll facing something like "hey, you overanalyze freak" or "you're digging too much"(I know all member of CXA family are kind, but it's just in me).. So all of your nice comments makes me relief.. :gift:

Angelwing Aeris, how about you posting what you know about Yin Yang in this thread? I want to know your opinion on this topic.. Like I've said in this essay's intro, I would like to know if anybody has comment on this.. :huggle:

HAHA! yin and yang ... Cause Cloud and Tifa are so opposites. Cloti's are thinking about this way too much! xD Besides, if they did believe this then they believe in symbolism? o.o and i thought it was just some Clorith crap. But great essay, took a few times to read it though, but your right, Cloud and Tifa are no where near yin and yang.

Great, wonderful work sha! You've got a lot of good points in there. My favorite ones have to be:

• Arguments against the pose symbolizing yin-yang
• Presenting Aerith and Sephiroth more representative of yin-yang
• Taking Nomura's quote about all of three of them lying in the church and expanding on it with the concept of Mitsudomoe

I wish I had the quote equipped with me several years back, when Cloti fans were arguing that SE would never put so much Japanese symbolism if Western fans couldn't understand. :P And now they're backing up their own (futile) arguments with Asian symbolism...

Thank you, Kaleta and PinkRibbon.. :huggle: I'm glad you guys like the 'essay'.. :D

Oh, so true.. Clotis keep contradicting themselves everywhere, which is not new to us.. :D


But, I still have something to add.. Maybe later.. :D

Here's a treat for everyone: (real yin/yang)



Tidus/Yuna are in a yin/yang position but notice the lighting. It has both light and dark, where as Cloud/Tifa are an example of yin/yang imbalance. They are yin and the light surrounding them is yang. It also seems like the light/darkness are clashing. The positions aren't right either. Look at Tidus/Yuna.

great balls of Fire that was Longggggg.
But Good ^^
it was a really great essay btw .
I loved reading it.
About the "Mitsu Tomoe",when I saw people trying to use the Yin/yang thing for Cloti i never really got why they thought it was Yin-yang ,it always looked more like Kakashis sharingan *shrug* (I love Naruto) ,But now that I have seen your essay I figured out why I always thought it was Kakashis sharingan =)
I guess that means His sharingan is a Mitsu Tomoe
Thnx ^^

@Angelwing Aeris
*gasp*
omg.that is a real yin-yang =)
I take that as more proof for Clorith ,just because TidusxYuna remind me so much of CloudxAerith .

So I take it like that was nomuras way of given us an other Hint for CloudxAerith.
Yes I know It can also not mean that,but its just My opinion so don't freak out on me any one


:no:

That was an extremely long essay, but it's still awesome. A lot of evidence against Cloud and Tifa. Now CloTis have less reasons to, err, reason out.

This is a really interesting take on it, Sha.
It seems you took a lot of time to do some research. I really like that you have a lot of facts to back this up...plus, you incorporated Aerith into the picture instead of completely ignoring her like Clotis do. If SE indeed intended for there to be some kind of symbolism here, your Mitsudomoe theory works a lot better than the Cloud/Tifa yin-yang theory. After all, SE already made it clear Aerith was present during this scene so you really can't just ignore her. :P

I don't exactly believe anything symbolic was supposed to come out of how Cloud and Tifa were positioned here. It definitely doesn't look like a yin-yang to me(it's lopsided), and if it was meant to be, it would have been more obvious. I dunno why they would dress both Cloud and Tifa in black...unless, like someone else mentioned, SE was trying to show a yin-yang imbalance of some sort between the two. :lol:

Basically, I just think that if something symbolical was meant to be shown here, SE would have at least hinted it in the RF or something. They never fail to mention anything important they're trying to get across to the viewers. *shrugs*

How true. And they've exhausted us by repeating those symbols in released booklets if you take a careful look. Like Aerith's file in FFD says, "Long skirt is like Aerith's trademark..." (p.15), I could list tons of those emphasized symbols but I guess you've known them already:

Aerith: flowers, flowerfields, the Church, water, pink ribbon, long skirt, unique diction..etc.



Well, maybe I can make another list for Tifa but that won't be many... :hide:

this is looong but it totally makes scense for me ^^ thnx so much sha, for posting. It's awsome !!!! I dunno how can clotis believe its Ying Yang XDD

Just because someone is considered "Yin and Yang" it doesn't have to be in a romantic context. There are many types of relationships people can share which reflect that. Maybe they're yin and yang in terms of friendship and family as opposed to romance; whilst Aerith and Cloud's relationship is that of a romantic sort of Yin and Yang.

This is merely a another way of looking at it; I don't believe this picture symbolises Yin and Yang at all....concerning the fact they're both wearing black and everything else symbolises Aerith. Aerith herself is displayed as a symbol of light and hope; surely she would be the light for a such a dark world? And possibly for Cloud as well?