The ending of CC supposedly portrays Cloud as essentially "becoming" Zack. Zack asks Cloud to be the proof that he existed, and Cloud walks off with Zack's Buster Sword in hand while adopting Zack's movements and gestures, and so on. I hear that Cloti's have been using this as "proof" that Aerith fell in love with "the Zack in Cloud", rather than falling in love with Cloud for his real self.

But I'm wondering to what extent Cloud actually "became" Zack? :unsure: It's obvious that Cloud adopted Zack's movements and gestures, that Cloud remembered being in charge at Nibelheim (when in reality, it was Zack), and that Cloud remembered being a first class SOLDIER (when in reality, it was Zack).

However, at the beginning of FFVII, Cloud has a very cold-hearted manner and basically doesn't give a rat's ass about the feelings of others. So Cloud's personality at the beginning of FFVII is nothing like Zack's. It seems to me that Cloud simply adopted Zack's mannerisms and memory, without actually taking on Zack's personality.

So to what extent did Cloud actually "become" Zack? :unsure:

Cloud became the proof of Zack's existence, yes but, not by "becoming Zack". You can say Cloud carries his legacy (Zack's hopes and dreams). That and, Cloud, most likely, imitated Zack in some aspects he would have liked to resemble him (unconsciously) - remember that Cloud wanted to be a 1st Rank SOLDIER, and Zack (a 1st Rank SOLDIER) was one of his role models.

Once again, those claims that Aerith fell in love only with the "Zack within Cloud" are moot points because, Aerith herself said she wanted to meet the real Cloud, and after meeting that real Cloud, she said she loved Cloud the most. There's nothing to interpret there any longer; she stated her feelings herself. If other people want to come up with their own meanings, good for them, but that only works for their fan-fiction. Full stop.

Even though that's understood by those of us in the Cleris community, I'm looking for the proof to back it up in debates, Cleris websites, etc. Aerith's statements in MoTP are ignored by many on the basis that the story isn't canon, even when you remind opponents that it was published by SE. As a result, you have to go beyond using the evidence in MoTP.

I'm suggesting that another way of contesting the claims that Aerith only "loved the Zack in Cloud" is that Cloud did not actually become Zack in terms of his personality. The persona manifested by Cloud early in FFVII was, in fact, nothing like Zack. So even though Cloud adopted Zack's mannerisms and history, it's easy to point out that their personalities weren't the same at all. For example, when Cloud first meets Biggs, here's the exchange between them:

Biggs "Cloud, eh? I'm..."
Cloud "I don't care what your names are. Once this job's over... I'm outta here."

That kind of persona is nothing similar to Zack, and there's many examples of Cloud acting that way in Disk One. Therefore, the point can easily be made that Aerith couldn't have fallen for the "Zack in Cloud" because Cloud, in fact, acted nothing like Zack. It's just another way of countering that claim.

Hi Aly :huggle:

Well ... I'll try explaining ... but I'm not very good at things like these :sweat: Sorry if I don't make much sense :huggle:

From what I got from Cloti people they think that the personality that Cloud displays is from Jenova's influence and that then when Cloud is with Aerith it is the Zack like personality that comes to the surface.

They said that they still think Cloud really cared about Aerith and that she was a very special friend - when I asked how this was possible if what they were saying about Cloud not being the real Cloud was really true - how Cloud could care about her at all if he weren't the real Cloud at all? - they said it was like Cloud was in a coma - he was there but not aware of it at the time and when he "woke up" (found his real self) he remembered what Aerith had done for him at least. I also pointed out that if it were true then all the Cloud/Tifa moments on disc one weren't true either but they don't seem to mind that :o

I don't like this conclusion because if Cloud is really nothing but Jenova and Zack on disc one then it renders pretty much all of that disc meaningless =/

Using info from the game is using arguments you've already used in the past, no? If they do not want to understand with facts, then what's the point of trying to make them understand? They clearly do not want to, or they are simply trolling.

Cloud never became Zack at the end of CC. There is no proof at all, and Crisis Core doesn't bring anything new to the table in terms of the LTD. Besides small details and newly introduced characters, everything else is basically the same. We see the scene with Cloud coming up to Zack in the rain and yelling his heart out in FFVII. We get the general idea that that's how he ended up thinking he was SOLDIER, but we also know that he knows he was raised in Nibelhiem, and his name is Cloud Strife. So it's obvious that he doesn't think he's Zack. And you can't exactly take and use someone else's personality just like that. And as for Jenova.. if I remember correctly, she can't make Cloud use someone else's personality. She can only make him share memories with another person, like the case with Tifa. He didn't start acting like Tifa after the well scene, did he? And about the theory of Jenova taking over Cloud for the whole of Disc 1. BS. If it were true, then the obvious shows of Jenova influencing Cloud's memories(the quick static TV flash) would have had no use. Why would she implant memories into Cloud when she's already taken control of Cloud?

So yeah... Zack's actions were what were mainly taken and were what Aeris seemed to have noticed. Everything else is Cloud influenced by his own past with Zack, which is still probably what got Cloud to mimic Zack's actions. =P

Sorry if this post is confusing... I ended up jumping around, adding to every part of the post. o.O;;

Okay, there's the problem. Read the following passages from the FFVII Ultimania Omega (translation at IGN):

So basically, it's saying that Cloud knew he was Cloud Strife only after meeting Tifa in the train station due to Tifa's memories of him. However, it also says that Zack's personality had merged with Cloud's.

That's why I'm bringing this issue up. It says that Cloud's personality actually merged with Zack's, but I don't see it simply because Cloud's personality was *nothing* like Zack's in Disk One. I can see that Cloud adopted Zack's *actions*, but not his personality.

The statement that Cloud "read [Tifa's] mind, seeing her memories of him, which were then combined with his own ideal vision of himself, fashioning a new personality for him" also implies that the Cloud in Disk One wasn't the "real Cloud". :unsure:

The well scene was before Cloud got injected with Jenova cells, though.

According to the FFVII Ultimania Omega, the "quick static TV flashes" were Cloud's original self trying to break through. Another passage from the FFVII Ultimania Omega:

Mind you, I'm not trying to argue against the idea that Aerith knew the real Cloud, and that the real Cloud loves Aerith. I'm just trying to see that our own standpoint doesn't conflict with the facts given in the FFVII Ultimania Omega.

Cleris views, whether they're being used in debates or presented on a website, need to be backed up by evidence from the game. Therefore, it's important to examine our own theories for accuracy before presenting them to others.

Hi, FB! :huggle: Well, the quote cited above from the Ultimania Omega seems to agree that Cloud's personality merged with Zack's. However, it seems that Cloud retrieved at least part of his own identity from meeting with Tifa at the beginning of FFVII. However, it also says that he retrieved an "idealized" personality from her memories of him that represented what Cloud wanted to be.

Of course... if Cloud retrieved an "idealized" personality from the memories of Tifa, doesn't that imply that Tifa didn't really know him, either? :lol:

Very true. Good point! :)

Personality - the totality of somebody’s attitudes, interests, behavioral patterns, emotional responses, social roles, and other individual traits that endure over long periods of time
Encarta ® World English Dictionary


Attitude- Cloud doesn’t act like Zack. Cloud was an ass to the members of AVALANCHE, only looked out for himself, was cold, anti-social, aloof…and then, meeting Aerith, he becomes warm, but acts awkward towards her, as if he doesn’t know how to respond to her demeanor, which catches Aerith‘s eye as was hinted at in MotP. But is this Jenova’s doing? Is the Cloud we’re seeing with Aerith only a spawn of her manipulation of Cloud and Zack’s memories? Well, I still fail to see any resemblance to Zack, so the only other possible reason Cloud would act that way, according to the Ultimania, is that’s how Tifa portrayed him when Jenova decided to use her memories of Cloud. Why would Tifa want Cloud to be an ass, tho? Something doesn’t quite fit…oh, wait, wasn’t that how he was as a child? O: So that really was Cloud‘s attitude!

Interests- Zack and Cloud did share a common interest: both wanted to be SOLDIERS for similar reasons. Good enough reason Cloud would resemble Zack in that sense.

Behavior- It’s obvious Cloud took on some behavioral patterns from Zack, Aerith speaks of this herself.

Emotions- This is sort of tricky. Cloud becomes an emotional wreck during the game, afraid of himself and what harm he could do to others. This is the reason he hesitates before going after Aerith to the Forgotten Capital. I am unsure if Zack would be the same way or not if in a similar situation; he did break down at one point during CC, didn’t he? (I’m unsure of what the reason was for, did it have something to do with Angeal?) Also, after meeting Aerith, Cloud becomes friendlier, but I can’t say as quite as much as Zack used to be. Throughout the game, Cloud also shows a great deal of determination to help Aerith and defeat Sephiroth. Zack was a pretty determined guy, too. So is Cloud's determination actually Zack's?
The thing about this is is that Cloud remains this way even after the Lifestream Event in the game, so if that part of the game supposedly pieced together the “real” Cloud, then why didn’t we see a huge change in him? He was angsty a lot afterwards, but he just lost Aerith and was stricken with grief and guilt. : / I’m still not convinced his personality is Zack’s.

Social Roles- As far as their roles in society go, Cloud believed he made first-class SOLDIER due to his memories getting infused with Zack’s. We’ve already deciphered that.

I don’t know of any other traits Cloud could have assimilated with Zack’s. The only thing I see Cloud getting mixed up with Zack is his memories; there doesn’t seem to be any evidence in FFVII that proves his entire personality became Zack's. Aerith knew enough of the real Cloud to make her own judgements about who he is and what she liked about him. If Cloud was sooo much like Zack, she would have said so. Instead, she states that they're different, but with similarities. There's no denying that she was probably attracted to Cloud first because of those similarities, but don't people usually look for a few of the same traits they're attracted to in partners? It's only until you get to know them that you understand their differences, and I doubt Aerith would have asked Cloud for a romantic relationship if she didn't know the real Cloud.

I can't exactly say anything against the Ultimania except that I think it's being vague when it says that Zack's personality merged with Cloud's.

Real Cloud (before the experiment): Weak minded, introvert, and non-charismatic.
Zack: Strong minded, extrovert, and charismatic.
Cloud (at the beginning of FFVII): Weak minded, loner but can have some social contact, and not precisely charismatic.
Real Cloud (by the end of FFVII): Quite strong minded, loner but can have some social contact, and not precisely charismatic.

The one in discussion is Cloud at the beginning of FFVII. As it has already been pointed out, his behaviour is nothing like Zack's; however, he imitates some of his gestures, and he can even flirt a bit. Basically, you can say Cloud (unconsciously) tried to look cool (like Zack) but, he cannot change who he is.

We know Cloud at the beginning of the game is made up of:

1. Tifa's Memories: Cloud's past, and probably what she expected of him.
2. Cloud's ideal vision of himself: In my opinion, this involves Zack's gestures, and part of his behaviour, that, plus Tifa's expectations.
3. Cloud's own personality: This is marked by his quite anti-social behaviour.

In conclusion, Cloud's personality was indeed comprised by many factors; however, factors aside from his own personality were just add-ons. Cloud was still Cloud, the big difference with his real self, is that he acted as if he were a cool guy.

I know, I know, my point is these are things we've discussed in the past. There is enough evidence to prove that Cloud wasn't Zack at the beginning of FFVII, and that, whilst Aerith may have fallen at the beginning for Cloud's resemblance with Zack; she ended up in love the the real Cloud. If people do not want to take into account official information as evidence, then not much can be done about them.

I don't think that would make much sense either since Tifa never even really knew the real Cloud. I believe she only really payed attention to him during the well scene and maybe remembers when he came up to her after Sephiroth attacked her, but it really wouldn't make any sense to me if Cloud/Jenova took Tifa's memories of him and somehow temp fixed Cloud with what little she actually knew about him, even if it were combine with his ideal version of himself. Wouldn't the ideal version of himself suffice even without Tifa then? I just don't get why the plot NEEDED to make Cloud a Zack/Jenova/Tifa/SuperCloud and not even mention that this is what he actually was.

But Cloud didn't meet Zack after he had J-Cells injected in him either. Things like the squats, other actions, and the scenes with Zack(They were shown as Cloud though) before they all reached the Nibelhiem Reactor all happened before he was injected, so he couldn't have just taken Zack's personality traits after he was injected with J-Cells. And if he could have used memories from even before he was injected, then the same should have been possible for Tifa as well.

Hmm... weird. I say so because when Aeris asks what rank cloud was, a static flash occurs and Cloud says he was first class. That's why I assume it's Jenova controlling his memory, since Cloud being first class is obviously false.


I think I'll play a bit more VII and see what I can figure out. I actually filled my 10 memory cards worth of saves in my PC version so I can return back to whatever scenes I want... I'll see what I can figure out.

I've only got time for a very brief reply, since I'm still working on something that's due tomorrow.... errr, today. <_<

sessystalker - thanks for the terrific research! I see that behavioral patterns are included in personality, which would refer to Cloud's actions. I'd like to study it more carefully, though. Thanks again!

Clerith-son: Very good analysis! I'll have a few things to comment on later when I have more time... ;)

MCS - Again, interesting comments, and I want to comment on a few things later when I have more time. This in particular struck me, though:

Whoa! Good observation! You're absolutely right... there was a white flash after Aerith asked him what rank Cloud was, and he said first class. The only thing I can figure about that is that the Ultimania Omega said that, after meeting Tifa at the train station, Cloud saw "her memories of him, which were then combined with his own ideal vision of himself, fashioning a new personality for him."

Perhaps his "real self" was confused with an idealized image of himself? :unsure:

More later... :D

Digging through the translations at SilentTweak, there are a few things I find interesting.

I'm a little confused by the "theory" put forth in Fury~Brand's post, to be honest. So they're saying he switches them on the fly and that the Zack one pops up randomly whenever he's near Aerith? Or is it just a huge conglomerate of personalities?

What I found interesting was this exchange:

Cloud apologizes about the flower bed, Zack blatantly steps in them.

But in their meeting, Cloud never laughs and is completely serious. I'm not even sure if he thanks her even once. He never offers to repay her at the very least. :lmao:

The impression I've always gotten from reading the scripts is that Zack's very talkative while Cloud is far more reticent and I think that holds true in FFVII onwards, really. :|

Aerith, one of the people in FFVII who knew Zack best, outright states that Cloud is different to Zack. She says 'two completely different people' and 'but you're different'. I don't know what is so difficult to grasp about that to some CxT fans. It's not as if it's a CxA interpretation that can be argued away. It's plain fact.

The Ultimania quote that states his personality merged with Zack's? The only way I find that plausible considering Aerith's words in the original game, and how MoTP backs it up*, not the retcon published ten years later is by taking into account, as SS pointed out, that physical behaviour shapes personality. Zack is playful, flirty, fun, and extroverted (basically a male version of Aerith, which may be why it's ZxC or GTFO with me when it comes to boy x boy pairings, heh). Cloud is serious, quiet, and introverted. Cloud and Zack are nothing alike in terms of anything but physical behaviour.

*By the way, I understand what you're saying, Aly, but the idea annoys me. Why should we have to think twice about using MoTP to back up our opinions? SE approved and published it, whether the fandom likes it or not. Simple as.

I completely agree, Amy. The rest of you have stated it, too, and I think it's very obvious in FFVII, AC, CC, and DoC.

It's not that we should hesitate to use MoTP to back up our opinions. I think we should, along with the evidence you guys have been giving about how the personalities of Cloud and Zack are so different. I've used similar evidence on DF, and I plan to repeat it on the new DF.

What I'm saying is that the FFVII Ultimania Omega was also published and approved by SE, just as MoTP was. Therefore, we have two sources from Square telling us two different things. The evidence in the Ultimania is bound to come up in debate, so we have to examine it to see how we can best counter that information.

For example, look at this quote from the Ultimania more carefully:

It says right there that there are multiple personalities in Cloud, not one personality that's like Zack. Okay, so... if there are multiple personalities at conflict within Cloud, which personalities were present?

1. Zack - it says Zack's personality merged with Cloud's
2. the Cloud of Tifa's memories - see red quote below
3. the Ideal Cloud - see blue quote below
4. the Sephiroth Clone - the Cloud who was manipulated by Sephiroth
5. the real Cloud - see the green quote below

Therefore, there are several personalities at work in Cloud, not just Zack's. As a result, we can't say that "Cloud became Zack" because there were personalities other than Zack's present in Cloud, too. In fact, several of those personalities were actually variations of Cloud himself, right? ^_^

However, that still leaves us with the question of how Aerith fell in love with the real Cloud. Can we say that since Aerith knew all aspects of Cloud - represented by different variations of his personality - that she knew the whole person? :unsure:

Aeris has always been characterized as excruciatingly perceptive by S-E, from my understanding. Easiest example I can think of right now is in Chain of Memories where she's probably the closest out of anyone in terms of identifying cause/effect, but beyond that example I can't think of anything upfront. I'm sure there's quotes in FFVII however.

In terms of "knowing" his personalities, I really think we can say that Aeris does know all the personalities.

1. Well, this is easy. Gestures/mannerisms. However, it's also easy to say that she knew more than this simply due to Cloud's own bluntness, reticence, etc.

2. I think this is also fairly easy to justify since the Cloud of Tifa's memories is, well, his past. It's not his present self necessarily, but it provides a past for the rest of his personalities. I do think this can be combined with #3, actually, as I think a strong case can be made that Tifa's memories, at least in disc one, are idealized ones of him. Plus the fact that the quote itself identifies this as "combining" with the "idealized Cloud" personality.

3. Ideal Cloud is "cool Cloud," imo. It's the one that says things like:

She gets some exposure to this on initial contact (bumping into him after the first bombing), but it's also present in her first meeting with him, although not exactly with the same rudeness i.e.

4. Err--I really don't think we need to address this one too much, do we? :lol:

5. I know this is technically "optional," but I felt that a quote during the date at the Golden Saucer sums it up best. There's a choice after Aerith says, "A DA-TE! Or haven't you ever gone on one?" One choice, the less arrogant one says "Well, not a real one... " and the quote is the resulting conversation:

Which I think describes the "original Cloud" really well. Beyond that it's difficult to say if there's a singular quote or moment when the "original Cloud" shines through, although I think overall a fair amount of "original Cloud" shows through during more personal moments. :/

So should we subtract the variations of Cloud's new personality he lost during the Lifestream Event, in order to become the "real" Cloud, to see if Aerith knew him? O_o

Cloud based himself a lot on the memories he adopted from Zack about being in SOLDIER, especially to AVALANCHE. Take away Zack's behavioral patterns and the memories of SOLDIER from him, would Aerith still have been attracted to him?
Considering their attraction to each other truly began after he fell into her flowerbed from the church roof, I don't recall any part of their conversation needing confirmation he was in SOLDIER. He mentioned he did a "little bit of everything," which led Aerith to ask him to be his bodyguard, but that's Mercenary Cloud speaking, not SOLDIER Cloud. She's already putting her faith in a guy she has no idea is even strong enough to protect her.

Maybe she had mixed feelings about falling for someone in SOLDIER after Zack. Afterall, SOLDIER worked for ShinRa, and they were trying to take her away, plus the issue with Zack. The fact Cloud came from SOLDIER probably only added a bit to the similarities between Zack and him, tho, he wasn't in SOLDIER anymore when he met her. And since we're taking away all aspects of SOLDIER away from Cloud, I think Aerith would have been somewhat relieved. Remember Elmyra saying, after asking Cloud if he was a SOLDIER, that Aerith did't need anymore heartache?

Taking SOLDIER away from Cloud leaves us with an awkward, reserved, but still determined guy that's probably beating himself up about how weak he is. Everything Cloud still was even after finding out he wasn't a SOLDIER. His ideal vision of himself was someone who was strong, someone that could take care of the people he loved when they were in danger. Cloud was always physically strong, but he was weak mentally and emotionally. He has a hard time speaking his emotions, which is something Aerith doesn't seem to have a problem with. It's actually something she compliments him with, since she's a heavy hitter when it comes to speaking her mind, and it is her that is able to boost motivation in Cloud. And his weak mental state made it easy for him to be manipulated by Jenova.

Like MT said, Aerith is very perceptive, and it's hard not to think she didn't notice Cloud had some inner demons he was battling. If anything, she wanted to help Cloud overcome them. After the good smack-down she got from Cloud being manipulated after handing the Black Materia over to Sephiroth, she could have planned to go to the Forgotten City to pray for Holy, and then go about her way. Instead, she opted to say to Cloud that she would return when everything was all over. Even after everything she's been put through, she wants to (and wanted to) stay by Cloud's side.

So that leaves us with Tifa's memories of Cloud and the "real" Cloud. But can't those be considered the same thing, since Tifa's memory of Cloud was the real Cloud? Unless we're talking about using Tifa's ideal vision of Cloud as well, which is the hero, but wouldn't that also include a bit more attraction towards her? :huh:

I dunno. My point was, take everything about Zack, SOLDIER, and Jenova away from Cloud, and you still have the guy that was around Aerith the entire time, the guy she was able to fall in love with. :gift:

Yet, most of those things seem to be more related with his memories, rather than with his personality, no? We know he developed some mannerisms because of those, as well; however, Cloud's somewhat antisocial personality is purely his own, and he always had that personality.

Sorry that I didn't answere sooner, but I've been busy!

Materia Thief

I would agree with that. I think most of her fans consider Aerith to be extremely perceptive.

Aerith's statement in the Date Scene, of course, completely reinforces the idea that she saw the differences between Cloud and Zack's personalities, while seeing the similarities in their mannerisms: ".........first off, it bothered me how you looked exactly alike." "Two completely different people, but look exactly the same." "The way you walk, gesture..." "I think I must have seen him again, in you..." "But you're different."

Hmmm... I dunno. I got the idea from the bit about "combining with the idealized Cloud personality" meant that the "idealized Cloud" was different from the Cloud of Tifa's memories. When you first meet Tifa, she remembers Cloud as getting into fights all the time when he was a kid. So the Cloud of Tifa's memories may have been the "cocky" Cloud who said things like: "I don't care what your names are. Once this job's over... I'm outta here.".

I'd say that part of his personality come from his insecurity and guilt over failing to save Tifa when she fell from the mountain as a kid. Cloud said this to Tifa during the Lifestream Event:

"If only I could've saved her..."
"I was so angry... Angry at myself for my weakness."
"Ever since then, I felt Tifa blamed me..."
"I got out of control... I'd get into fights not even caring who it was."

So that's apparently at least part of the real Cloud.

I would say the idealized Cloud is the one who wanted to get "strong like Sephiroth" so everyone would notice him... the one who left Nibelheim to become a SOLDIER.

She gets some exposure to this on initial contact (bumping into him after the first bombing), but it's also present in her first meeting with him, although not exactly with the same rudeness i.e.

LOL! Agreed. ^_^

I agree, although I associate the "mixed-up" kid with the Cloud who tends to be insecure and reticent. Although I can't think of any scenes offhand that demonstrated this in Cloud during Disk One, I'm sure they must be there since that was my own impression of him during Disk One. :lol:

sessystalker

Actually, no... I wouldn't subtract the variations of Cloud's personality, since I see Cloud as assimilating the different aspects of his personality during the Lifestream Event, rather than subtracting any. When you think about it, the only thing Cloud really "lost" during the Lifestream Event were the memories of him being a first-class SOLDIER and leading the party during the Nibelheim event.

I'll have to go back and check the translation of the FFVII Ultimania Omega to see if it specifically analyzes exactly what "happened" to Cloud during the Lifestream Event.

I agree with your analysis, sessystalker, and you said it very well. However, the FFVII Ultimania Omega seems to disagree with us. So what evidence can we use to show that our own standpoint isn't contradicted by what the Ultimania states? :unsure:

Clerith-son

Yes, those things are related to memories, but the Ultimania states that the Jenova cells within Cloud used those memories and merged them with Zack's to "create" a new personality for Cloud during Disk One.

But you bring up a very interesting point... didn't the Lifestream Event basically show that both the "real" Cloud and the Zack personality were both present in Cloud? :unsure: So wouldn't that indicate that the "real" Cloud was part of his personality in Disk One?

Quite honestly, the way I consider personality is that--even if he did intake parts of other people's personalities (I know that I personally pick up mannerisms and speech patterns from friends (i.e. slang) just by hanging around them a lot) doesn't that unique combination make Cloud, well, Cloud? I think to say that the only "real Cloud" is the Cloud from his youth before all of these other influences (JENOVA, Zack, etc.) is rather limiting--after all, they are, in the end, formulative influences on Cloud during the game and pre-game.

So in my opinion, "real Cloud" behind all the false memories would still do the same things that he did in disc one (minus the whole being controlled by Sephiroth moments. Err. :lol:).

Sure, he was a complete jerk at the beginning of disc one, but I think that the insecure part of so-called "real Cloud"/kid Cloud would want to posture and pose in front of someone from his past that would remember him and who he had promised to "protect" (Tifa). He doesn't want to be a failure and that certainly sounds like real Cloud.

I really don't see what we have to "prove" beyond the fact that Cloud is not Zack which is, in itself, debated down dozens of times. D:

EDIT: Ugh, I'm sorry if that was incomprehensible. x_x;

The real Cloud wasn't precisely like Cloud at the beginning of FFVII (I'll refer to this one as "Cloud" from here on):
- Cloud was completely antisocial; whilst "Cloud" was a loner but, he could keep up a conversation, and he was even able to flirt a little.
-Cloud has inferiority complexes since he was never able to achieve something big; "Cloud" believes he's some cool bloke since he "managed to become a 1st Rank SOLDIER". (Let us not forget that "Cloud" quite possibly attributes all of Zack's accomplishments to himself; so, he believes he's the real deal.)

"Cloud" may have believed he's great; however, his personality was nowhere near Zack's charismatic personality. Anyone that has played (or spoiled himself/herself properly on) Crisis Core can tell that much.

I guess I'm not making myself clear. I'm not asking how to prove that Cloud was not Zack. I'm familiar with those theories, I've used them in debates myself, and I've published them on Destiny Fulfilled. Here's one of the essay about it from my own website: Cloud Did Not Become Zack

The reason I posted this thread was that the following quote from the FFVII Ultimania Omega seems to dispute our theory that Cloud was really himself during Disk One:

Despite our evidence to the contrary, this quote from the Ultimania seems to be saying that Cloud was not himself in Disk One. If Cloud was not himself in Disk One, then how can we say that Aerith knew the real Cloud? As a result, I'm trying to examine this quote from the Ultimania to see whether or not it actually contradicts our previous viewpoint.

I brought this up under "Crisis Core" topics, since the "merging" of Zack's personality with Cloud's supposedly takes place at the end of CC.

How you awesome gaiz can discuss this old topic with so many sharp and brilliant ideas, I'd never know!!! :woot:
Thanks Aly, this is something I'm dying to clarify after I finished the game of CC. I had two day off since yesterday, so I typed something…*blushes* I know exactly what confuses you, Aly, but before I start that part, I have several brief points ‘bout this messed-up persona thing……hope I didn’t overlap others’ ideas above:

1. As for FB's post, I think it super weird if Cloud could ever switch to "Zacky mode" while he's around with Aerith (I also heard some Clotis saying it's the same reason why Cloud showed his rare smile to Aerith). In that case, it's almost impossible for Aerith to tell their differences, right? And amazingly, she said she knows the difference. Moreover, many of Cloud's replies to Aerith are optional, based on date mechanism, how do you recognize which part is Zack-like answer? During the first meet, Aerith used to ask Cloud if Tifa's his girlfriend; if it is the Zackish part in him that controls their interaction, wouldn't it be so strange to have Cloud's answer optional? And in fact, the first time he'd ever thought of something really happened in his past is after he met Aerith, he dreamed 'bout the conversation with his mom. :whistle:

2. Thinking more about it, another reason I won't buy Clotis' saying is because of Jenova cell. Its ability can not only mess up one's persona, but also suplement memory lag when it comes to things that never happen in the past. But it is mainly based on Cloud's memory about Zack. I think many ppl forget a very important thing-- Zack NEVER EVER mentioned Aerith to Cloud. SE makes it dead end by CC--Cloud(well, I should say J. cell) even didn't know he has a girlfriend! If Jenova cell can even "guess" Zack's gf, I'll shut up for that matter.

3. Aerith teased Zack when they're in Lifestream, saying "You're not that simply and awkward like Cloud!" What she points out is exactly the crucial characteristic of Cloud, whether he's the "real Cloud" or the "fake Cloud". This also helps the theory that Cloud still contains his own personality before Aerith died.

4. IMO, the whole story of CC is used as the FF7 Supplement; explaining how it forms the most important linkage to FF7. Zack’s vivid personality and what he behaves or says to Cloud are for individualizing Cloud’s in the Game. I used to wonder, why J. cell in Cloud has to copy Zack’s identity as a SOLDIER instead of separately making a “new SOLDIER named Cloud?” He needs not to erase the whole memory about Zack in order to make himself a fake SOLDIER, right? I guess the ending of CC explains it well: Zack asked Cloud to carry on the rest of his dream of being a hero, and to “live both of their lives.” So Jenova cell subconsciously mimicked everything about SOLDIER (to be a Zack he knew). There’re several episodes prove this idea: Cloud used to ask Zack “how does it feel to be a SOLDIER?”, and even mailed him before some mission, telling him that he memorizes Zack’s “SOLDIER creed”. Therefore in FF7, we clearly see him acting like one. Besides, CC Ultimania hints the similarity between Cloud and Zack is mostly about behaviors (see the translation of Zack’s file here): Zack has a specialty in doing squats, and he used to do some before Cloud (during the buddy talk), and in FF7, there’s an event when Cloud has to accept the challenge of doing squats. The specific quote is that “It seems that Cloud also copies Zack’s “specialty(?)” in FF7.” The key point of the setting of J cell’s recreating Cloud’s new persona is to present this continuous wish, the hope that leads to the second destiny in FF7(according to Nomura, CC ends in a wishful way.) To sum up, CC never means to shape Cloud as somebody survives by fully copying another’s personality.
……………………………………………………………………………………
Aly:

You know I have this damn book, but seriously, I’ve re-checked those pages you mentioned over and over and over again, and I think this conclusive translation(or should I say translator’s brief conclusion?) would be NOT COMPLETE.

First of all, in Page11(see the marked part), Cloud’s info page, it only mentions that “the original Cloud is merged with the memory and personality of Zack, Cloud’s idealized object.” And the passage in Cloud’s persona part only says “Cloud appears to be a cool man who’s really strong and with much pride in the previous part of the Game-- however, that’s just an illusion. In fact, the real him has no normal training to be a SOLDIER, and the cool attitude he pretends is to hide the loneliness caused by his weakness of failing to be social.” And in the tidbit below this page, it says the “voices” in Cloud’s head can basically separated to three parts: 1.the case during the event happened 5 years ago. 2. the case calling from the real Cloud—ex: Cloud’s dream while sleeping in Aerith’s house, and the preaching while he’s in HoneyBee Inn. 3. the case of Sephy’s(Jenova’s) control when Sephy calls him a “puppet.”
……So all the contents above had never ever erased the existence of the real Cloud in Disk one. I really dunno why there’d be such a conclusion.

Secondly, throughout all page 13, I see no such saying that “Cloud seems to immediately become ‘normal’ while he met Tifa in train station and reads her mind.” Can you tell me which part (or which paragraph) does these lines refer to? I’m not judging but it somewhat seems like a personal speculation to me. In this page, there’re many brief paragraphs in the right side of this page, used as further explanations. Page13(see the marked part)
So far I read, my rough trans goes like this:

1. Cloud’s father died when he’s a little child. Cloud lived with his mother.
2. Cloud had no good friends and was kinda isolated by other peers. It was confirmed during the event of reading Tifa’s letter in Kalm.
3. Cloud met Tifa 5 years ago, but he hid his identity for he didn’t keep the promise of “being a SOLDIER.” However, in the playback scene in Kalm, there is a Cloud wearing SOLDIER’s uniform and came back to see his mom. In fact, this is still the “illusory self” he depicted before his friends. There’re many ambiguous plots during the remembrance in Kalm.
4. Hojo implanted Jenova cells in Cloud’s body and infused him with Mako energy. This experiment is different from the normal process of making SOLDIERS. The result leads to have him physically strong like a SOLDIER, but also causes his mental breakdown. He has no “number” for that reason.
5. Zack died in a brutal gunfight, and Cloud survived because of his protection. Cloud was unconsciously inherits his best friend’s unfinished wish—the Buster Sword and the intention of going toward Midgar.
6. When Cloud met Tifa, his mental condition was mixing up what he heard from Zack and things he knew, creating and acting an illusionary self because he felt it shameful for not becoming a SOLDIER. Actually, throughout the Game, all the active talks about his being a SOLSDIER are all fake, the one he referred is Zack.

…..Ok, so I still don’t get it. Why there’ll be such a saying that Cloud was not himself at all in Disk one…. :unsure:

Thanks very much for your replies, Chibica! I was planning to ask you about the translation, but you've seemed so tied up with other translations recently, that I didn't want to bother you with even more! You're terific to look at these, so thank you! :huggle:

All I can tell you is that the translations are presented as a direct translation from the Ultimania rather than as the translator's conclusions. In fact, the translator actually prefaces any sections where he/she is drawing conclusions from the text of the Ultimania with the heading Analysis. The implication is that the remaining text is a direct translation. Here's the link to it: FFVII Ultimania Omega FAQ

That was never directly stated in the translation. However, the passages that I quoted certainly imply that Cloud wasn't himself in Disk One, since the quotes basically say that Cloud's personality merged with Zack's, and that Cloud fashioned his "new personality" to mimic Tifa's memories of him along with his idealized persona. In effect, that's saying that he wasn't the "real Cloud" in Disk One.

Awwww... is that where the "jerk" peronality came from? That's so sad... poor Cloud! :hug: However, that does imply that the "real Cloud" was present, doesn't it?

Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by "1. the case during the event happened". What event? :unsure:

And that really makes me wonder about the translation at FFVII Ultimania Omega FAQ, since it clearly states that the voices in Cloud's head are all instances of the "real Cloud" trying to break through. That's obviously not true of the case where Sephy calls him a "puppet".

All I know is what's given at FFVII Ultimania Omega FAQ. However, my impression is that it's not on page 13. The reference to "page 13" seems to indicate that the same fact is also mentioned on page 13. The page translation, however, actually seems to come from a section about "Jenova's mimic ability" with the following screenshots at the bottom of the section:

Does that help? :unsure:

Okay, that refers to an "illusory self" that Cloud exhibited, but does it say that this "illusory self" was only present when he met Tifa at the train station, or was it present throughout Disk One? :unsure:

Again, thank you so much for looking at this, Chibica! :huggle:

I've had this conversation with a cloti before, they told me that Cloud was never the real cloud until Tifa unlocked his memories. And everything before that was the clash of identities with Zack and influenced by the jenova cells inside him. Then they pointed out the whole Cloud laughing on with aerith in the game, while jenova was still in control.

This really ticked me off, because i told them, doesnt this mean that the real cloud is showing through? because why on earth would jenova make cloud laugh? o.o

Funny if Cloud wasn't the "real Cloud" during Disk 1 that his personality didn't revert to something different after the Lifestream event. Funny that his personality and behaviors remained exactly the same. The only thing that changed was that he realized that he was not a First Class SOLDIER and had mixed up some of his memories with Zack's.

The funniest thing is, Cloud is far more upbeat and, well, Zack-like after he regains his memories. I can easily see Zack fooling around on the deck of a ship and joking about crashing it. I can't see Zack telling everyone to piss off unless he gets paid.

Hmm... I've been thinking. I believe that Cloud mostly took Zack's personality of being in Soldier, and that's all. For example, in Crisis Core, before he took in Zack's personality, Cloud could barely carry the Buster Sword. At the end of Crisis Core / beginning of FFVII (I'm guessing not too long after Zack's death) he's able to wield it fairly easily. I think this is mostly because of what he took from Zack. Same thing with the Omnislash, his rank in Soldier and smaller things that he remembered from the Nibelhiem mission and on the ride towards Midgar. Everything else personality-wise I think is the real Cloud. Like everyone else said, the way they act is completely different, but the way Cloud gestured and moved was very similar to Zack. So I think Zack's traits involving certain skills needed to be in Soldier were all that Cloud used. And the rest was the real Cloud... and the ideal Cloud too, I suppose. >_>;;

I dunno... I doubt that the Cloud at the beginning of VII would have said somehting like "Let's mosey"... I kid, I kid. It was just Cloud felt comfortable around the Avalanche members at the end of the game. =)

But Zack's death was after Cloud got injections of Jenova cells and Mako infusions from Hojo like SOLDIERs got, and those managed to enhance his strength.

True, FFG... but we've been evaluating a translation of the FFVII Ultimania Omega which seemed to contradict that theory. (see above} Chibica's been clearing it up for us.

:lol: That's so true! I've always noticed the same thing myself. :rolleyes:

Well, that was also part of what I was trying to say. Cloud and Zack were basically the same in terms of Jcells/Mako, but Cloud isn't able to use the buster sword easily until he had taken Zack's personality. I guess we could just say that Cloud was still weak from the Mako poisoning.(I think it's mako poisoning o.O?) Hmmm... But then there's also VII, where Cloud's able to lift the Buster over his head seemingly easily after he notices Zack is dead.

Crisis Core sure did complicate that one tiny cinema. (Same goes with DoC and that small Lucrecia side-story of Vincent's)

Ohhh... I see what you mean! Yes, Cloud was suffering from Mako poisoning at that time, but the Jenova cells actually seem to have influence on a person's mind and ego. Here's more from the FFVII Ultimania Omega about what was done to Cloud and the other clones:

That was the treatment given to Cloud. According to the translation here: FFVII Ultimania Omega, Cloud was able to function after the experimentation only because the Jenova cells in him mimicked Zack.

Alrighty... thank you Anastar! =D

Here's my new theory on why Cloud isn't a direct copy of Zack. As said here...

SOLDIERs are unaffected by Jenova cells because they are strong both physically and mentally. I'm sure that since Cloud is later able to wield the Buster Sword, his strength is just about on par with Zacks,(Perhaps stronger later on) but his mentality is obviously weaker since the Jenova cells in him really mess with Cloud throughout the game. BUT if he really took in all of Zack, he would have taken the strong mentality of being in SOLDIER as well, leaving the Jenova cells useless and unable to affect Cloud at all throughout the game. =)

Anyone see any holes in this theory? >.O

First of all... Happy Birthday, MCS! :happybday:

Hmmm... well, the whole idea that "Cloud became Zack" is based on Jenova's mimic ability, as stated here:

From what it says, you don't take on the mentality of another person. You simply imitate certain characteristics of them, such as their behavior and speech. In other words, the imitation is superficial, so that you take on external characteristics such as behavior. You don't acquire anything internal, such as their intelligence or their feelings. Therefore, I don't think Cloud would acquire Zack's "mental power" (for lack of a better word) to resist Jenova's influence.

Thank you. =)

Hmm... If they can't take on things like intelligence, how would Cloud have known how to do something like the Omnislash?(Which Zack claimed as his own move) I'm just starting to confuse myself even more. >.O;;

My guess would be because Cloud had seen some SOLDIER use similar sword moves. If he'd seen a SOLDIER fighting with a sword that way, then he should be able to imitate it. After all, sword fighting is a behavior, right?

Aly: (all quotes are from her previous post)

Yeah, and notice that this point wasn't specifically mentioned in related statements 'bout LS event (I mean, the event of Cloud's regaining his true self), but in the illustrative part of "Personality"(p.11) His pretentious coolness is his basic personality, in order to hide his awkwardness in sociality. This fact exists from the beginning of the Game, we're just not informed till the LS event. So that part surely belongs to the "real Cloud" and is revealed since Disk one. Although the word "illusion" in this paragraph not only means both the disguise for his unsociable persona and his acting like a SOLDIER, I still consider them two seperate elements. In Cloud's page of personal file in CC Ultimania, it shows that Cloud used to excuse his feeling of isolation by saying "I'm just special." Don't you think this is quite similar to what the "real Cloud" would do in FF7? My point is, J. cells could mix up his personality, but he still keeps some part of his real self as the base in Disk one.

The first case means the Nibelheim event; the example is when Cloud tried to blow up the First Reactor, he heard voice saying "Wake up!" in front of it. In page 68, the paragraph says Cloud recalled some lines from Sephiroth in Nibeheim Reactor, and the caption (the same page) also clearly says "The calling of 'Wake up!' in this scene is different from Sephiroth's words in the Ancient Temple while he tried to convert Cloud into a "puppet" (direct trans. from my version).
.....0_o" Now I'm more than confused.... :dizzy:

So far I read, the book implies that Cloud's mixed-up persona is represented by multiple voices and the “flash” moments in several scenes (that’s J cell functions when Cloud confronts memory gaps). IMO, Cloud isn’t “complete” in Disk one, but that doesn’t mean some basic of the real him are totally whipped out. The new “illusory self” is made by many elements, not a simple mathematic calculation like A+B+C=D, it more like A+B+C=ABCD. Each part exists at the same time, that’s why each of them keeps popping up in his mind throughout the previous story. Cloud survives by the version of embracing them all, and Aerith sees through the complexity, falling in love with the real part in him.

Come to think it more, if those “voices” stand as Cloud’s different periods/conditions of “self”, why there’s no such “Zack’s voice” at all? Zack's persona is only shown when Cloud recalled a fake memory in Kalm. Can I say that hints Cloud simply merged "what he thought of to be a Zack" instead of taking Zack's indivisual characteristics? That's why I said the connection between J. cells and Zack is more about creating/suplementing fake stuffs, like memories or battle skills. And when it comes to "J. cells v.s. Cloud's mixed-up personality", the corelation referrs to Sephiroth's control over him (like the 3rd case of "voices").
To sum up, Cloud still holds on what made of the real him in Disk one, could be quite unobvious, but at least in Omega, SE implies it be a part of this "illusory self."

In this paragraph, it didn't say that Cloud only presents this when he met Tifa in the train station, but again, that only means he acts like Zack and tells Zack's story, not meaning that he erases his basic personality and replaces it with another brand new one.
............................................

If the reason why you want to make things clear is to support "Aerith knows and loves the real Cloud". Then I shall help confirm your belief by some of my rough translations in Aerith's info page in Omega (sorry I didn't have enough time to afford exact trans word by word.. :puke: ):

1.(p. 29, in the part titled the Secrets about the Ancient, Aerith.)
Aerith's first love is Zack, the object of Cloud's basic personality of being an "ex-SOLDIER." . We could say Cloud's speaking and acting like Zack is a big reason why Aerith would start to have good feelings to Cloud.

2.(same page)
"I'm looking for you."..."So you won't have a beakdown."---what Aerith told Cloud reveals many deep meanings. Aerith detected that "the present Cloud is not the real him", even during their encounter. She knows it because of her mysterious, inherent ability.

3. (p.30, the explanatory paragraph beneath the quote of "how about one date?")
This is the payment she suggests when Cloud says that it'll cost her to hire him to be her bodyguard. This line shows the composed and mischievous side of her. May because of this promise, it's easier to have Aerith be the other party in Cloud's date when they're in Gold Saucer.

4.(p.31, the explanatory paragraph beneath the quote of what Aerith told Cloud in gondola.)
Aerith comes to think of her overlapping Cloud and Zack, she sees through the fact that "the present Cloud is not the real Cloud." Her meaningful saying "I'm searching for you" and "I want to meet you" means that she has discovered the existence of the real Cloud, which he's not aware of it himself.

5. (the same page, the fourth side-tidbid along this page.)
Although in the beginning, Aerith felt close to Cloud is because he behaves like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and is attracted to him.

6. (the same page, the explanatory paragraph beneath the quote of "Cloud...you haven't done anything, it's not your fault!")
Even Cloud behaves weird, she tries to console him with such words and doesn't fight back while being attacked by Cloud, who has been lost his mind. That's because she knows that the recent Cloud, who becomes "Sephiroth copy", is not the real him, she tries her best to decrease his anxiety.

....With confirmed words like this, actually I dun care that much what kind of Cloud in Disk one is presented; as long as Aerith knows the real him and still loves him in that situation, i'm all contented. :D


ED: Sorry in advance if my post wasn't well-organized.. :blush:

Wow, thank you for the confirmation, Chibica! :woot: That pretty much states the same thing that has been repeated over and over and over again... that Aerith knew Cloud wasn't himself, but fell in love with him anyways. She knew he was different than Zack and loved him more than Zack all the same. I would love to get the exact translations when you get a chance! :huggle:

First of all... thank you so much, Chibica! :huggle: Sorry that I didn't reply sooner, but I've had a touch of the flu this week so I haven't been feeling all that great. :flu:

Yeppers, that's why I was concerned about the translation as it appeared at IGN. That translation appeared to be stating that Cloud was not himself during Disk One, which completely contradicts the idea that Aerith did know the "real Cloud". That worried me a lot!

But, the quotes you've provided do show that Aerith was able to see through to the real Cloud, and that she was attracted to the real Cloud. Thank you so much! Like FFG said, I'd really love to see the exact translations when you have the time. You're terrific! :huggle:

I have to say it again... poor Cloud! :sad: Yet, his social awkwardness continues to be demonstrated later. For example, it's stated in CoT when they go to open the new Seventh Heaven:

Cloud's not good at socializing. He wasn't good at talking. Even so, he would go negotiate somewhere to obtain the ingredients they needed.

And later, after the start of the Strife Delivery Service:

Tifa thought it was wonderful how Cloud, who wasn't very sociable, was doing a job that connected people through mail.

So even though Cloud now deals with his social awkwardness without being a jerk, that aspect of his persona is still present. It's part of the "real Cloud".

I'm confused, too! :lol: But, referring back to your original translation:

That's basically saying that the voices in Cloud's head represent 1. what happened in Nibelheim, 2. the real Cloud breaking through, and 3. Jenova/Sephy's control... right? So when it says "The calling of 'Wake up!' in this scene is different from Sephiroth's words in the Ancient Temple while he tried to convert Cloud into a "puppet", I think it's saying that Sephiroth's words in the Ancient Temple are an example of case "3. Sephy/Jenova's control" rather than case "2. the real Cloud breaking through". Does that make sense?

Yep, that makes a lot of sense. In fact, the translation at IGN says that "Zack's personality merged with his, creating the present day Cloud, producing a conflict of multiple personalities". The real Cloud's personality merging with Zack's to form multiple personalities suggests that Cloud's real personality was one of the personalities present during Disk One. Other quotes that you've brought up in your translation reinforce that idea.

Good question. Zack's persona was only apparent in some of Cloud's actions, and in Cloud's memories of Nibelheim. Zack's persona was never apparent in Cloud's personality during Disk One... which is exactly what we've been saying for ages!

Could the Japanese words for "ego" and "personality" be confused in translation? I'm wondering because look at the definition of "ego" from Dictionary.com:

1. The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves.
2. In psychoanalysis, the division of the psyche that is conscious, most immediately controls thought and behavior, and is most in touch with external reality.

The translation of the FFVII Ultimania Omega at IGN says this:

So Clones with a fragile mind - like Cloud - are unable to maintain their own egos and live the ability to live a normal human life. The translation goes on to imply that Cloud adopted Zack's personality in order to be able to function in the real world. Could it be that they're talking about Zack's ego rather than personality? The definition of ego above from Dictionary.com seems to support that.

By the way, I keep referring back to the translation at IGN simply because I suspect that Cloti's will make use of that translation. <_<

Great! Thanks for clarifying that!

Ego is a very different word then personality.

And Ego is something Zack had a lot more of then Cloud. Ego in terms of force of will...and in terms of the other variety of ego.

Thus, Cloud had to learn to mimic Zack's Ego to maintain functionality. J-Cells are, after all, imbued with mimicry, mimicry so powerful that even another man's ego might be duplicated.