Yes, this upset me so badly I couldn't sleep - so I made a topic about it.

What is drive hunting?

Dolphin drive hunting, also called dolphin drive fishing, is a method of hunting dolphins and occasionally other small cetaceans by driving them together with boats and then usually into a bay or onto a beach. Their escape is prevented by closing off the route to the open sea or ocean with boats and nets. Dolphins are hunted this way in several places around the world. The largest number of dolphins are hunted using this method in Japan, however the practice also occurs on the Solomon Islands, the Faroe Islands and Peru. Dolphins are mostly hunted for their meat; some are captured and end up in dolphinariums.

In Japan:

In Japan, Striped, Spotted, Risso's and Bottlenose dolphins are most commonly hunted, but several other species such as the False Killer Whale are also occasionally caught. A small number of Orcas have been caught in the past. Striped Dolphins are now considered endangered in the area, but they continue to be hunted in smaller numbers.[1] In 2004, according to the Japanese government, 554 Striped Dolphins, 475 Bottlenose Dolphins, 437 Risso's Dolphins and 63 Southern Short Finned Pilot Whales were captured in drive hunts, for a total of 1,537 animals.[2] The catch quota set by the Japanese government allows for around 3,000 dolphins to be captured annually.[3] These numbers do not include dolphins and other small whale species killed using various other methods however, such as offshore harpoon hunts, in which mainly porpoises are killed.

There's a whole article on it at wikipedia, and a short, informational video by the BBC on youtube.

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This really upset me to hear about. I knew dolphins were still hunted, but not on such a grand scale. The Japanese fisherman claim they treat the dolphins like "any other fish", yet I believe considering the dolphin's intelligence and relationship to humans, that's really unfair. It also disturbs me that the Taiji Fishing Corp is trying to make the dolphin meat more popular in Japan (even giving it to schoolkids), which would result in more killings and mercury poisioning, since dolphins are not safe to eat.

The other side claims the number of dolphins killed are controlled, and many people in Japan find it disrespectful to their culture. Others give the "animals don't have a soul let's do what we want" argument.

I'd like to hear what you all think.

My reply isn't related directly at you Zelda but rather at arguments like these.

Surely, the fact that the animal in question is a dolphin is irrelevant (except, perhaps, in comparison to some other animals that might not have equal mental capacities). If other animals that have a less...'magnificent' representation in western culture were killed and hunted in similar fashion (and they are) shouldn't they also get the same kind of protest as dolphins? Surely, even cows and chickens deserve a similar outrage at the methods with which they are farmed, killed etc.

Admittedly, cows and chickens can be killed and grown in fairly humane ways but surely dolphins can as well. Yet, I rarely see arguments wondering why terrible things happen to dolphins. Surely the protest that we see from round the world against whaling shows that for some reason there is a much stronger focus on dolphins and whales than other hunted animals. Why?

You only have a few positions to take. Killing animals is immoral, killing animals is not immoral or perhaps that we can kill animals but we have a moral obligation to treat them humanely. There may be some alterations to this but these seem to be the general three cases.

So why the outrage when dolphins are mentioned? Surely we all know how poorly other animals are treated and hunted, yet they are not mentioned? I don't really understand how one can bring up dolphins without referring to many animals.

Just my two cents.

IMO, dolphins (and whales) can't be treated on the same level as a cow or a chicken. Dolphins go into REM sleep. They use tools. The solve problems, even recognize the difference between numbers which is a highly abstract train of thought. It's the same reason people get pissed off when people hunt gorillas. Both of these creatures have developed mentally to a point where they aren't just slabs of meat. These are intelligent creatures.

It's not that I'm saying "eff the chickens, save the dolphins" - I think any animal should be treated humanely. I get that animals of lower intelligence (whoo, food chain) are hunted for food, and I accept that. But then, they should be hunted in controlled numbers and for food only.

The hunt last six months out of every year for a creature that isn't even safe to eat - which makes this utterly pointless. The dolphins don't need to be hunted for any purpose.

Secondly...and not to get on you but I'm a little tired of people saying, "Why get mad about the dolphins and nothing else?" I do get mad when I see pigs or chickens treated badly. But this is the issue at hand that I wanted to talk about, and it's fairly recent since no one managed to see exactly how the dolphins were treated beforehand.

Actually, they do. =\ There are protestors who reveal farmers who treat their animals poorly, and people work to do something against it.

Zelda! :huggle: You are totally my soul sister *^_^*

Dolphins are awesme, I totally want to swim with some one day.

I'm fascinated by dolphins, orca's and other wonderful creatures from the blue world.

I too am against all inhumane methods of killing animals. Plus if it was a post armageddon world and the place was in chaos and I found a chicken I'd keep it for eggs :P

I've seen pictures of slaughtered whales before. Not pretty.

It's all terrible - especially since the River Dolphin is already extinct.

I saw this on TV. I couldn't help but cry over it. It is absolutely disgusting what they do. :(

I don't see how comparing dolphins to any other animal makes it any different. Any violence against animals is absolutely horrid and should be protested against. Why dolphins? Why not? Any exposure on any violent act towards animals will make a difference.

I really should have clarified the direction of my comments a little better. Again, this is by no means directed towards you Zelda. I don't mean to suggest that we shouldn't protest against this treatment of dolphins and I could not agree more that this is a terrible practice that should be stopped. Rather, my point was more general. I commonly see people (again, not you) getting riled up and motivated to make a change in cases such as these and seemingly just because of the associations with the particular species involved which I consider to largely be a case of speciesism.

Furthermore, the reason I suggest we should more strongly consider the problems with more commonly harvested animals is that the issues involved are far greater and have stronger implications. If we can stop our poor treatment of animals such as cows and chickens we greatly assist the environment (due to lower production and procedures that force less carbon emissions) and we also assist many more animals in relieving their suffering. So if we take this on a fairly simple utilitarian account we should, technically, be much more concerned and put more of our efforts towards assisting these animals as opposed to, say, dolphins.

I most definitely accept your point that dolphins are more of a concern because of certain qualities they possess but I fail to see how that alone is enough to be a greater concern than the species we harvest intensively. I find the issues surrounding certain treatment of these animals en masse (and the lack of protest against these practices comparatively) much more disturbing than the case of dolphins you represent. I think more of our efforts should be directed towards these concerns and indeed whether it is ethical for us to eat animals at all.

I realise that there are groups working on these problems and I admire their continued efforts but that isn't my point here. Again, I am making a very general observation that this topic brought to my mind. I find the comparative lack of uproar for practices against other animals very disturbing considering the factors involved.

I don't eat meat at all since there isn't a humane way to kill it and I'd feel guilty for eating it. Besides Tofu (Dofu if you live in China) and vegetables are better and healthier for everyone than meat.

Bottom line: Killing an animal if you don't absolutely need it to live is animal cruelity.

I agree with you 100%. Dolphins can't be treated on the same level as Cows or Chickens. People eat Cows and they eat Chicken, becuase of our dietary needs. Unless your a vegitarian, but that is a diffrent story completely. And besides they aren't endangered but Dolphins are, therefore they need to be treated diffrently than other animals. Same way as the Gorrilaz, or anyother endangered animals. I'm very sure people can survive without eating Dolphins. That is just gross.
:no:

@Raist:

Well, imo, it's not only the cruel treatment of an intelligent animal, but the fact that these animals are incredibly dangerous for humans to eat that makes it a little higher on my priority list. Taiji Fishing Corp is trying to make dolphin a more mainstream dish and even provide to schools for lunches. So the situation is not only dangerous and cruel for these animals, but even humans who aren't part of this hunt will be at risk.

While I am against the hunting of dolphins I find this reasoning dubious. Sure a dolphin can't be put to the same scale as chickens and cows in number of availability for consuming but you can't just say you shouldn't hunt them because eating dolphin is "gross". I'm a southern girl and I enjoy alligator and frog. Something most people (particularly northerners) would find gross when all it is is local foods. To them dolphin is food. It isn't our place to judge what animals they put in their cuisine. (As long as it isn't people... :whistle: )

But I don't believe in killing dolphin. That's why I buy albacore tuna. They're the only type of tuna that doesn't school with dolphin and thus won't have any chance of dolphin getting mixed in. It's hard to say what is and isn't an intelligent creature. If those are the standards you go by then is it okay to kill a dog for being dumb? It is obvious that dolphins are truly superior and thus I believe should be left a lone to flourish. Plus a bigger point is that in Japan hardly anyone buys whale or dolphin meat any more so they aren't even being hunted for use really. So them dolphins roam free!

The way the Dolphin's taste is not what I mean't by "Gross" Kit. The act of hunting down endangered species was what I meant by that.
You'd do well do read into my posts more carefully.
<_<

This:
@: Angelwing Aeris

Was what I was trying to say, but obviously, failed in my last post.

It isn't just because eating a dolphin is "gross" to some people. It's not a matter of personal taste so much as that it's a fact that eating dolphin is dangerous no matter who you are. The Taiji fishing corp ignores these dangerous without seriously looking into them because this hunt is how they make money.

they should stop the killing with the excuse that the dolphins meat contains high levels of mercury.
Seriously I hope green peace beats the hell out of them.

Dolphins are inteligent animals, I tought that hunting and eating those animals was a very primitive way so the only thing they are doin is going to a lower level.

I heard that the new generations of japan dislike the whale meat tought, they say it tastes the same as fish.

Well, having read the posts, here's my two cents:

As far as mercury levels in their meat;
-Chicken McNuggets are preserved with something amounting to lighter fluid.
-Meats like bacon and hotdogs have sodium nitrate to preserve a red color. This is highly cancerous.
-Many manufactured vegetarian foods, diet sodas, canned soups, and salad dressings have excitotoxins. These directly damage nerve cells.

Having said that, these are still for sale undisputed. That is because you can't force someone not to eat something because it's dangerous (a basic right). You can only inform them.

As far as Dolphins go: None of the dolphins hunted are going extinct globally. As far as Dolphins near Japan, it's more than dolphins. Many types of fish simply don't inhabit their water anymore due to a high demand for fish. Telling them not to fish anymore would be disastrous.

As far as intelligence: We make no effort to eat the dumbest animal available. Eating an intelligent animal is just as humane as a dumb one. It's sad knowing their more pack-mentality that leads them to even saving humans at times, but why eat based on sympathy to humans? Many animals are compassionate, just to other creatures.

As far as any religion that could come up: You cannot outlaw something based on a religion. Law is an unbiased representation of all of it's concerned people (in a good government anyways).

Not sure about repeating someone, but just putting all my current points up at once.

There's a blatant difference between the substances in hot dog franks and mercury infested fish meat. I think my health would be drastically different if I replaced all the hot dogs, chicken McNuggets and diet soda I've consumed with dolphin meat.

You can't force someone to not eat something because it's dangerous, but that doesn't make it right. Nothing gives you the "right" to eat whatever the heck you want because, goshdangit, "I want to", by the way. Sure, eating is a part to the "right to live," but nothing dictates that you should be allowed to eat whatever you want. And even then, aren't there more important "rights" to be concerned about besides "I get to eat whatever the heck I want to!"? :]

So wait, if something goes extinct locally and ecologically it's "okay" 'cause "Oh, they're elsewhere too?". Is that what you're saying? o_o

Yeah, it's more than dolphins. Doesn't make it right. They hunt whales, which are undeniably endangered species under the pretense of "scientific purposes," when in fact, it's incredibly easy to find whale meat in the markets. I doubt anyone's telling them to "not fish anymore". The arguement is against dolphin hunting, not fishing in general (which has its issues too, but this is not the thread for it).

And they don't inhabit their waters anymore because we've overfished them. We have no idea if those fish that we killed because "oh, we're hungry" (even though it's definitely not the poor eating those fish) or "oh, because we need some place to dump this toxic waste" could have cured some fatal disease or been the inspiration for the next grade in technology. A "high demand for fish" is NO excuse to destroy a species for our own greed.

Dolphins can be just as dangerous as sharks, quite honestly, and although I agree we shouldn't eat based on "Oh, look, it's intelligent life! And this isn't! Let's eat the stupid one!," the major factor I see is that we raise cows/chickens/pigs for consumption. We aren't raising dolphins.

I agree that religion shouldn't play a factor in this, but there are more reasons to outlaw beyond religion. Ecological concerns, for one thing.

EDIT: By the way, I definitely agree with you Raist, in that more awareness needs to be raised on how more common meat products are raised (i.e. cows/chickens/pigs).

Hows this then: The only means by which you can take a dangerous product off the market (for it's dangerous properties), should be is if it is no more than a poison. I agree that the current standards of dolphin 'harvesting' leads to many cases of poisonous meat. I don't think this should lead to the ban of the meat, just strict regulations. Though these regulations might render the dolphin market barren and amounts to it being illegal, it still allows healthier cases to get through.

I mentioned the rights to eating it because people were using the high mercury content as an argument. I am all for the restriction of current dolphin hunting, but I need to play the devil's advocate and remove what I don't see fit from that argument.

When it comes to animal protection laws based on population, it global. As far as locally, it's up to the local government. This is because it's important to protect a species on grounds of population only if that population can be permanently damaged. Because there are large populations of all of the hunted dolphins in the same ocean, it shouldn't be considered a large enough threat to outlaw based on population.

I include fishing in general, because as established by the 'don't hunt by intelligence' idea, it's makes a concentration on dolphin's immoral.

What I see happening is a mix up of the original idea: The status quo of dolphin hunting is horrifying. Lack of regulations puts even school children at risk. We can agree with this (I hope). So you can easily argue that we should regulate dolphin hunting for a safer product and more humane hunting methods. Where it left from this was including the danger of dolphin population and it's negative health effects. These two points become vague as it effects a more global scale. The best you could hope for is a local effort by locals as it effects them. To many of us this is global, and to concern ourselves with other's local affairs and put dolphin hunting on top is ludicrous.

I'm sorry if I repeat myself or accidentally misquote someone. I'm rather tired and may miss something.

Here, let me restate my position, since I don't think I was exactly too clear in my original statement. I am, first and foremost, for regulated fishing so that we may fish sustainably. Meaning that we aren't overtaxing the ecological population of whatever species. It is impossible, I think, to completely ban fishing, so if we can at least fish sustainably, than I'm good with it.

Regardless--I think there are more reasons to restrict hunting besides the meat having dangerous qualities to it, but I would be fine with strict regulations with actual enforcement.

Understood. I'm just pointing out what I see are flaws in your arguement in (at least I hope it is) an intelligent manner. XD

But see, what I'm arguing is that the local extinction of a species can and ultimately will damage the larger population as a whole. :ermm: It steals away a specific part of the gene pool, including the thousands of years of natural selection that has refined the species for that area (in this case, the Pacific North-East). I don't see how a dolphin several thousand miles away can make up for dolphins that are becoming locally extinct in that area. As well, the local extinction of one species can cause a massive butterfly effect across the local ecosystem in general--destroying the dolphin's natural predators, among other things. God forbid we learn that one of these dolphin species that we're killing is in fact a keystone species. The effect would be devestating. :|

And even then--if the dolphin becomes extinct in one area, people will simply move on to another area where they [the dolphins] live and the hunting continues until they're either ecologically or biologically extinct--both massively damaging the world as a whole.

I'm a little confused by what you're trying to say here, but yes, I'm sure we can agree that regulations are needed. XD

I disagree, however, in the fact that "local efforts by locals" is the best and only way to solve such a problem. Simply enough, since it is profitable for them (which it is, no doubt about it), they have done nothing to stop it. I'm sure they're perfectly aware of the ecological ramifications of it (considering the massive amounts of protests), but they persist. The world is becoming increasingly global and the butterfly effect continues to hold true. The local extinction of the dolphins in Japan's coastal waters could devestate the planet as a whole, even if people do not believe that they have an inherent value besides meat.

I apologize if I didn't address your points, btw, haha. And I totally understand the whole being tired--that disclaimer applies to me too. XD

It's not that dolphin meat is dangerous just like...for example, eating a high calorie food is dangerous. There are serious cases of mercury poisioning that resulted from eating dolphin meat.

from New Scientist
6 June 02

Two of the 26 liver samples examined contained over 1970 micrograms of mercury per gram of liver. That is nearly 5000 times the Japanese government's limit for mercury contamination, 0.4 micrograms per gram.

Read the full article.

If this was true, dolphin hunting wouldn't be a problem in Japan, now would it? :lol:

As for materia thief: I'm willing to settle on a personal disagreement over the duties of local and global responsibility, as it's more of opinion. Seeing as we at least agree on regulations and such.

as for:

I put more detail in the next post. Those are isolated cases that got through due to a lack of regulation. Dolphin meat on average isn't poisonous.