One argument I see a lot is that there is no true couple of FFVII, because of the dating mechanism in the game that allows your affection for certain people to rise or fall. However... just HOW seriously should we take the dating mechanism anyways? :huh:

The default character for the Gold Saucer date is Aerith. The lowest her affection score can be is 24, while Tifa's can drop all the way to zero. So, is the dating mechanism merely a game to increase replay value and nothing more? I have heard that the entire thing was meant as a joke to parody Japanese dating sim games. So, how can you possibly take it seriously (especially when one of the characters Cloud could date was Barret) if it is a joke? In an interview with Naru, a young Japanese-American girl who grew up in Japan, she spoke of the dating mechanism in FFVII (from Destiny Fulfilled):

The Date Sequence
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Aly: I've noticed that the Japanese game manual doesn't even mention the Love Triangle. My guess is that the options available to Cloud for the Date sequence was really intended by Square as something like an animated doujinshi for the amusement of the player, rather than an option of who Cloud actually loved. Do the Japanese see it that way?

Naru: When I first played that game, I was more into the plotline than the love stuff going on in the background. I just found it amusing when the dating thing popped up and commented, "it's so Tokimemo (Tokimeki Memorial, the pretty well known dating sim game)".

Well, majority of my guy friends were nicer to Tifa (for having huge chests); majority of my girl friends were nicer to Aerith; some went for Yuffie as well. So I think yes, I think of it as a personal preference thing from Square Enix, although the official couple was still Aerith and Cloud.
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Aly: So the Date sequence is there for the amusement of the player... right? The Japanese see the Date choices as an amusing and funny dating sim game that has nothing to do with who the official couple of the game is... correct?

Naru: Well, everybody know that the official couple of FFVII was Cloud and Aerith, FFVIII was Squall and Rinoa; on FFIX, it was Zidane and Garnet; on FFX, it was Tidus and Yuna. Yet, we see different pairings on doujin. Yes, we do know who official couples are; it is just that some of us might think that Tidus might have been better off with someone else. So hence the doujin came into play. It was equivalent to fanfics in Japanese society.

To me, the entire date choices were the inside joke. Dating simulation games were (and still are) popular in Japan. That was why the Thousand Arms was very funny because it featured mini dating simulation game in it. Imagine how funny it could be when FFVII threw in a joke like that.
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Aly: So it was meant as a joke?!? Americans believe that it is meant to show who Cloud loves!!!

Naru: Dating simulation game was (and still is) very popular genre in Japan. Even the porn games follow such format. So it was more like an inside joke/parady at Japanese culture.

Another thing that should be taken into consideration is the fact that FFVII was the very first FF released that was not "dumbed-down" for American players. Want to know more? Go here and read this paper written by a Stanford student. In this paper, it states:

"In the early days of console-based RPGs, there was a general misconception that American players were not sophisticated enough to play complicated RPGs, preferring instead to play 'simpler' fighting or platform games."

The paper goes on to say that when Nintendo released Final Fantasy IV in America (as Final Fantasy II, because it was only the second FF game to make it to a US release) it was a "dumbed-down" version to make it "easier" for American players. Squaresoft also considered American players to be "simpler" and released Final Fantasy Mystic Quest in 1992. The game was so simplified that it angered US players, and the game flopped. To add insult to injury, FFMQ was later released in Japan as Final Fantasy USA, which made even more US players furious, as it perpetuated the "dumb American" stereotype in Japan. Final Fantasy V never made it to America, and some speculate that this is due to its creators believing it was too complex for American gamers. Final Fantasy VII was, in fact, the very FIRST FF game to be released in the US completely UNCUT. While the translation of FFVII was utterly butchered, the symbolism remained intact.

So, what does this mean? It means that FFVII was the first FF game released in the US with all of its Japanese cultural references and symbolism intact. Does this make the game harder to follow? Does this make the relationships harder to understand for those who are not familiar with Japanese customs? What do you think? If you take the dating mechanism out of the picture and consider all of the Japanese cultural references, symbolism, and customs that are inherent in the game... do you get a game in which the couple that was intended is truly clear to those that understand Japanese culture better? Is the assumption that it was "left open to player interpretation" something that Squaresoft began saying later down the road when the love triangle disputes broke out, to keep the fans happy? From Destiny Fulfilled:

Aly: Are you saying that any couple other than Cloud x Aerith only exist for use in fanfics and doujins in Japan? If a Japanese person likes Cloud x Tifa, or Cloud x Yuffie, or Cloud x Zack, or whoever as a couple, they still know that the official couple of the game is Cloud x Aerith... is that correct?

Naru: They were all fan made, right? The reason why fanfics or fan comics become popular was that people might want to see something extra or quite not agree with the official story. People just took it as the fan made, not as the official.
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Aly: Are you saying that everyone in Japan knows that Cloud and Aerith are the official couple of FFVII? Who Cloud truly loves has been debated for years here in America because of the ambiguities of the translation. Are you saying that it is quite clear to the Japanese people that Cloud and Aerith are the official couple of the game?

Naru: Yes, I quite believe so. Although, lots of my guy friends preferred Tifa because she has huge chests. *cough* She was more like a fanservice character (too bad Lulu and Quistis were somewhat like that too).
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Aly: On a side note, I'd be very honored if you would look at a website written by me and my friends about Japanese Culture and the Love Triangle of FFVII. Since you are so familiar with the Japanese culture and language, I'd be curious to see whether you see the analysis as correct.

Naru: Are you sure you have not been to Japan? I think you certainly did your homework on the Japanese culture. I really like your site, miss.

Basically, I want to know if:

1. You believe that the game is truly open to player interpretation because Squaresoft intended for it to be that way.

2. You believe that the true couple of the game is clear to those who understand Japanese culture and understand that the dating mechanism was nothing but fluff. You also believe that Squaresoft never really intended for the game to be left open to interpretation and only began saying it down the road when they realized that some players did not "get" the subtleties of Japanese relationships.

What do I believe? I am not sure yet... :lol: That is why I am asking you guys. I want your thoughts on this. :P

1. I think Square had intended for there to be some interpretation, but not enough to effect the "true story." I think what they *may* have been trying to accomplish was to make the story more 3-D, without one set path. But if it were really made to be open to interpretation, then Square still seems to be pushing THEIR interpretation onto us, with certain cameos that I shall not name .. *cough* :D

2. I think the dating mech was all fluff. Come on, Barret?! :lol: I've seen some US anime date-sims, and there are always different choices, but sometimes, well... Only one of the girls is actually on the cover with the main guy. The story revolves more with one girl and the others are optional, if you get what I'm sayin'... :unsure:

I think Square had an intended couple, (and still does), but since the fanbases (and their opinions) were formed Square been put in a hard place in terms of openly showing who Cloud was in love with. So they've had to resort to hinting ... ;)

I completely agree with what Seii said. The Dating Mech is pure fluff, and it doesn't determine who Cloud really loves.

The primary reason I see the Love Triangle open to interpretation, however, is that who Cloud loves was never conclusively shown. There is no Moonglow lake scene. There's no scene like Squall and Rinoa's embrace when he rescues her from the Sorcerer's Memorial. Cloud never says, "I love you" to either woman. You need a conclusive scene like that to say that Cloud definitely loves one woman or the other. There is no such scene in FFVII.

Many Cloti's try to claim that the Night Under the Highwind scene is the conclusive scene. What they don't realize is that the scene is completely open to interpretation. Nothing conclusive is shown - Cloud doesn't kiss Tifa, Cloud doesn't touch Tifa, Cloud never approaches Tifa, and there's more than one way to interpret what Cloud says. I've never considered the Highwind scene to be romantic at all. Tifa simply expresses her love for Cloud, and Cloud says, "..........." That's hardly romantic . It's one-sided. Besides that, there's three optional versions to the scene, and Cloud conclusively rejects Tifa in one version of it, which means that Cloud's affection for Tifa is completely optional to the player.

To me, the hand reach scene is the conclusive scene in the game because Cloud chooses to find Aerith, and there's no other way the scene can play out. I find that scene to be very romantic. However, Cloti's interpret the scene a different way. (I find the Cloti interpretation of this scene to be absurd, though.)

If there's no conclusive scene in the game that definitely shows Cloud's love for one girl, then it's open to interpretation. However, I do think there's way more evidence in favor of CloudxAerith than in favor of CloudxTifa. In my opinion, what the Cloti's use as evidence is nothing but their imaginations in overdrive. Because of that and because of all the hints that Square has given us in subsequent games, I think that Square intended CloudxAerith as the true and intended couple of the game.

Hmmm.
Square does know about it's fiercely competitive fanbases, right? So how come they keep putting only Cloud and Aeris together in various games? If it really is 'fanservice' they would try catering to Tifa fans too. We all know how some hardcore Tifa fans are like, surely Square would try satisfying them too.
But no. They keep pairing Cloud and Aeris' names and Nomura even gives them a subplot in Kingdom Hearts. One may ask, how come Tifa never gets such treatment? Hmmm, maybe because Cloud and Aeris are the true and...

No, I won't say it. AC is almost upon us and i really don't know who the true and intended couple is until then. But as Square will no sooner favor one fanbase and risk endless flames than jump into a pit filled with Midgar Zoloms, I guess we'll never know. :angry:

So Anastar, i believe you're right when you say that Square is resorting to hints when it comes to Cloud and Aeris.
And FF_goddess, from what I've said, i think i believe number 2

Hmm... You guys make some good points. I agree about the dating mechanism thing, too. I think it was just there to increase replay value, kind of as a little side-game. It is interesting that Aerith's affection rating was set so that she would be the default character in the date sequence. I don't think a lot of CloTis understand that concept too well. Why would Squaresoft manipulate the affection ratings to make Aerith the default character so that she would go on the date with Cloud most often? I have always believed it was because she and Cloud are the true couple of the game. ^_^

Let us look at this statement. What do we consider "conclusive" proof? A kiss... a hug... a Moonglow make-out scene... saying "I love you"... These are all Western concepts, though. How do the Japanese show that they are in love? They rarely, almost never say the words "I love you". In fact, in FFX, when Yuna says "I love you" to Tidus at the end, it was a change to the script. In the original Japanese script, she says "thank you". Do the Japanese kiss and hug openly? From this site:

Public displays of affection are taboo in Japan, you'll rarely see a couple do more than holding hands or a brief hug in any public setting, kissing is quite intimate. In fact drinking from a cup someone else has drinken out of constitutes an indirect kiss, but a kiss still the same.

This site also states what is on Aly's page about "true love" connecting the two like a string:

For those individuals who have found "true love," it is believed that they are connected by a string. This string enables them to know when the other is in trouble, and to even hear their voices. This pops up in anime quite often.

Hence, we have Aerith's ribbon, which Cloud still seems to consider important in Advent Children. The are also connected mentally/spiritually with an "invisible string", if you will. :P

Also, from Aly's site:

Japanese culture is largely a silent culture. In Japan, no matter how many complaints a person may have, they are not expressed. It is considered a virtue not to complain about anything. Japanese have been taught perseverance since they were children. The Japanese have become a people of few words in order to restrain their emotions. Japanese people do not like conflict, and they avoid it as much as possible.

The Japanese Smile

Although Americans are very open about their feelings and are accustomed to articulating themselves, the Japanese generally have a negative concept about people who easily express themselves. In Japanese culture, feelings are often kept deep inside to the degree that one can lose touch with his or her real feelings. Feelings are often conveyed in Japanese very subtly by a single word and sometimes silence conveys a whole volume of thought.

My point is this: Japanese relationships are MUCH different than Western relationships, as I am sure much of you know. So, are we mistaken for looking for "conclusive proof" of who Cloud loves from a Western perspective? If you take into account Japanese behaviors, who Cloud truly loves becomes pretty clear. So how should we be looking at the behaviors of the characters in FFVII? From a Western perspective? Or from the Japanese perspective? Later games seem to be more Westernized in regards to their relationships. Is this because of the confusion that resulted regarding Cloud's love interest in FFVII (mostly from Western gamers)? What are your thoughts on this?

Yes, it's true that standards of behavior are different in the Japanese vs. American cultures. However, I'm not saying that there's nothing conclusive when you consider cultural differences. I'm saying there's no conclusive demonstration of love when you compare FFVII to the love scenes in FFVIII and FFX where Squall and Tidus conclusively demonstrate their love. Even though it was Yuna who spoke of her feelings, it was Tidus who embraced Yuna at the end of the game, and Tidus who kissed Yuna.

These were later games, and it's possible that the later games were more Westernized. However, there is nothing comparable in VII to the scenes in FFVIII and FFX where love is conclusively demonstrated by Cloud. Was the lack of such scenes due to cultural differences or was it due to Square wanting to leave the game open to interpretation?

That is what I would like to know. :P

My theory: Square wants to mess with people's heads, so even though they made the game with an intended coupling/interpretation in mind, the creators used vague hints instead of explicit statements. Maybe it's a storytelling technique to make the plot more interesting than it already is, or maybe it's a marketing strategy of some sort.

Oh, and the dating mechanism, I believe, is for entertainment purposes only. Or maybe it's a tool for curious players to find out how Cloud relates with his party in a deeper sense. It's a more interactive way to show Cloud's relationships with his peeps, and invariably more creative than just telling them in non-optional scenes or FMV's. :D

:huh: I think SS and Naru once talked about how they were not aware that there's an LTD going on in the western part of the world.

Of course, I'm currently braindead so don't listen to me.

Not quite, Shrouded. Both of them said that the conflict and fighting over the LTD didn't exist in Japan. They said that it's not a matter of intense conflict in Japan, and that you don't find topics and discussions about it all over Japanese forums that go on for 100's of pages like you do in NA forums.

The dating sim type thing was put in there for replayability in my mind. It gives people a reason to play it again which allows people to get more out of the game. Another thing could be to give the players a chance to feel as if they were closer to Cloud by choosing for him, making the player feel as if they were in his shoes. Which in time, would make the player fall deeper into the emotions the game gives. It also gives a few different viewpoints of characters at a certain time and it's a reward for players who...

1) love a certain character. They get to see an extra bonus scene with them and all that choice making earlier on wasn't for nothing.

2) are people who want to master the game. People like me want to get little extras out of the game for our hours and hours of playing and trying to do everything possible.

So I think it was just a little feature Square used for people to have more fun.

And about the love triangle... To me, stories that leave a certain bit of mystery in it's most interesting plot points stick in people's minds more than stories that have a conclusive, revealing ending about everything there is. Square didn't want to spoon feed Cloud's emotions to the players because, seriously... How interesting would that be? It wouldn't be as interesting as it is right now. The plot wouldn't latch onto your mind like a starving leech. Square knew what they were doing when they chose how to unfold the love triangle. It would just have the biggest impact, and in a way, it was a cliffhanger. It left the players wanting more.

What Square DIDN'T intend was for people to completely ignore the hints they gave. They wanted the players to recognize these hints and let them realize what is going on instead of needing the "bottom line". The best realizations happen in the player's heart and mind instead of reading text on a screen. Square wanted to make this as heartfelt, as emotional and as real as possible while staying within the confines of their technology at the time. Because whether you believe it or not, real life doesn't have some big romantic scene with revealing true loves followed by a happily ever after ending. Especially when it comes to a man torn apart by his past and him having to fight that. Him breaking down and telling someone how much he loves them is out of character to me and I doubt the staff really wanted words to express feelings in the first place.

This game is all about things being more than they seem. And if people want to ignore the meanings behind Square's carefully planned little details, it's their loss. FFVII is more than just a game. It's an emotional experience, even more for those who appreciate the work Square put into making it. It's just an insult to me for people like rabid cloti's to insinuate that Square would be as half-assed (pardon the language!) to put in a sex scene between Cloud and Tifa and other examples of what they say happened. Not only would FFVII lose all it's symbolic meanings and cause both people to go out of character, but FFVII would just be reduced to the next best RPG with a horribly linear story. I just pity them for being so shallow.

...Wow, that was unintentionally long. :blink:

Very good points, Cloud's Girl. I agree that the Date mechanism was most likely added for replay value. It makes the game far more entertaining to add a feature into the game where scenes change according to choices you've made earlier in the game. Besides, the girls express their affection for Cloud during the Date sequence. Cloud doesn't demonstrate any affection for the girls except during the Play scene by kissing her hand. The Play insinuates that love exists between Cloud and the girl he's with, but his action of kissing her hand can be written off as something he did for the benefit of the Play rather than anything he truly felt.

Your points are very good, too, about the hints Square has given us rather than showing us anything conclusive within the game itself. I think you're right that Square wanted us to think rather than spell things out for us. However, the Date mechanism also affected how much affection Cloud could demonstrate for either woman during the course of the game.

Take Cloud's line to Aerith in Cosmo Canyon when he says, "But I'm... we're here for you" to her. It fits perfectly with Cloud's character to make a slip like that, but it also fits perfectly into the scheme of the Date mechanism. If Cloud had said, "But I'm here for you" to Aerith when the player had been making choices to date Yuffie, Tifa, or Barret later in the game, it wouldn't have made sense. It could easily be that Square had Cloud change it to "we're here for you" to keep him from declaring affection to one particular woman in the game.

The same with Cloud's response to Tifa after she says, "Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking" during the Highwind scene. Cloud only replies to her with, "............." Cloud's response to Tifa is left completely open to interpretation because Square didn't want to decide for the player how Cloud would respond. Since Cloud's response to Tifa would be different depending on which choices the player had made earlier in the game, Square left his response ambiguous. Square didn't decide for us how Cloud would respond.

You can find many examples of this during the course of the game. There's a number of places where Cloud could have voiced conclusive affection for one girl or another, but Square always left Cloud's response ambiguous or gave the player a choice of responses to make.

However, I do think that Square has given us far more evidence in favor of CloudxAerith. The hints given to us in subsequent games, merchandising, and advertising say it all. Cloud is also generally more affectionate to Aerith during the course of the game than he is to Tifa. It's very subtle, but if you look at what Cloud does for Aerith and how he responds to Aerith in scenes where the player wasn't given a choice of responses, Cloud shows far more affection to Aerith.

Here's my rather long, confusing, and horribly written intake on this issue:

I definitely agree with the people who've stated that the dating mech. was probably added on for replay value purposes only, and doesn't have anything to seriously do with a player’s ability to CHOOSE who he loves. Right... wouldn't the dating mech have ONLY focused on Aeris and Tifa then, if Square had intended for the players to seriously choose? Going along with what others have already suggested, I strongly believe that Square chose to make those statements, about players being able to decide who they want Cloud to love, simply because they wanted to keep ALL their fans happy. Does that mean there's a strong possibility that what they've stated had never actually been a part of their true intent? Maybe the game had originally STARTED OUT as a love triangle, but perhaps Square had truly intended for it to have been solved by the end of the game.

First off, I’d like to say that I’ve taken the Japanese language before and have been taught by actual Japanese instructors. Because I’ve interacted with them and have studied their language, I do sort of have an idea of what their culture is like. Now, some of my Asian friends prefer Cloud and Tifa as a couple due to personal preferences of a character over another. Regardless of that though, they STILL believe that VII's true pairing is Cloud and Aeris, and don't seem to have an issue over who Square's intended couple for that game is. On the other hand, some of my American friends who have played FFVII argue that FROM THE SCENES IN THE GAME ITSELF, Cloud could really go either way. Naru has stated that the love triangle isn’t really an issue in Japan, because most know that the intended couple is Cloud and Aeris, so this goes along exactly with what I’ve explained concerning my friends.

*Before I go any further, I'm going to apologize in case I offend anyone because it's not my intention to do so. It's rather difficult to explain cultural differences without sounding like I'm totally stereotyping :cry:

To start off, how you interpret/perceive things is pretty much influenced by your own cultural and personal beliefs, no? Each culture has its own set of interpretations for what certain things are. For example, what one culture may view as being romantic may not be considered romantic from another culture's perspective. This is not true for every American, but compared to Asians though, Americans (western cultures as well, but to make it simple, I’ll use Americans as an example) generally are less reserved and express their feelings more openly.

This is a reason why some people perceive that "looking into each others' eyes" scene between Cloud and Aeris in KH as being NON-romantic, while others see it as being perfectly romantic. Using this as an example, Americans would probably expect more "openly" behaviors, such as a kiss or an "I love you" phrase, to prove they share a romantic love. To an Asian, such as myself though (probably including Japanese as well), something as simple as this can definitely symbolize romantic love. We don’t look directly into people’s eyes unless we want them to get the impression that we “feel” something for them, and from an American perspective, a behavior such as this makes Asians, generally, shy in nature. Isn’t it true that Americans would rather prefer you to look them in the eye, even if you’re just having a casual conversation about the weather? This supposedly means that you’re actually paying attention to that person, otherwise, you would be considered rather rude, correct? To these people then, the Cloud and Aeris KH scene would be considered a casual encounter, and nothing more.

In my culture (I'm pretty sure this goes for other Asian cultures as well), for example, if we're not interested in someone, due to our more reserved nature, we would never outright turn them down. We would far rather let our behaviors indicate our feelings: the inability to look that person in the eye, awkwardness, staring off into space, and yes, silence is a big one. If I were to react this way in front of another person within my culture, he would understand my behaviors perfectly fine…even though an American may not get the message. Hence, this all really points to cultural interpretations and differences.

From my culture’s interpretation (this includes many other Asian cultures as well):
a “…” means “no...”
From an American interpretation: a “…” means “maybe”
Now, the true question is: How similar to the American culture is the Japanese? Regardless of the fact that they probably have some influence on each other, these two cultures ARE completely separate and ARE located on the opposite hemispheres of the world.

Going on to talk about Square's other Final Fantasy games...it's true that the couples in these later on games have adopted more of a western cultures’ method of expressing their love. I think Square believes that this would really help make it clearer to EVERYONE on who loves who. Have you guys noticed, too, that with every single one of these FF games following VII, we no longer have a “love triangle"? Has Square chosen to do things this way to prevent confusion and fan conflict for the rest of the series? If so...this supports the point that maybe it had never even crossed their minds while creating VII that there WOULD be confusion/conflict over who Cloud truly loves.

To sum this all up, I'm more with the idea that Square had never intended for there to be "player interpretation" and an "unsolved love triangle". These ideas only exist because, due to cultural differences, some fans may have interpreted Cloud's behaviors as "inconclusive" and “uncertainty”, even if to the Japanese (according to Naru), his behaviors had definitely pointed to an answer. I’m with the Japanese all the way on this one. After all, they did create the game…and so in order to interpret it correctly, and to understand the true intent of the creators, I feel that we would ALL have to look at this through THEIR culture’s perspective.

*whew!...done!*

As for my personal opinion as to whether or not the Love Triangle was meant to be left open to interpretation or not, it depends on what the predominant Japanese interpretation is. Anastar's research into this and the nature of romantic symbolism in Japanese culture is, to me, the STRONGEST evidence we have in support of C&A.

Let's look at it this way: Square is a Japanese company, and until FF7 Japan was more or less it's consistent main target audience (only half of them were released in North America). So, would it not make sense for Square to have catered largely to that audience in terms of the use of familiar symbolism and cultural attitudes? ESPECIALLY if 7 was the first FF to be released in the US without being "dummied down?" Perhaps the reason why in post-Final Fantasies there is always a "romantic scene" in the post-7 FF games has to do with the fact that Square simply didn't realise how poorly much of the Japanese-oriented context of 7 translated into a Western context when they released it internationally. Clearly, with how well 7 sold outside Japan, it was probably clear to Square that Western markets were going to be a consistent draw for future games. So, more recent games were given more "culturally neutral" sings and symbols. Seems reasonable to me...

Edit: didn't look at Hades' post closely enough! Her points leave me little doubt - there is only one canon couple in the game (C&A) and the "ambiguity" from the Western standpoint is due to a communication barrier.

I'm going to dare to be different here. :P

In my opinion, the love triangle aspect of the game is totally subjective - it's the player who chooses the girl to gear Cloud's affections towards the most. Or you can make him go for Barret if that's what floats your boat. :lol: It's one of things I enjoy about the game; the fact you can (to an extent) choose the love interest. It's a very unique aspect, and it enhances the gaming experience. Either way, Cloud has a special relationship with both girls, and a unique affection for the two of them that could be romantic, or just a very close friendship. I don't think that C/A is canon, and I don't like the couple because I think they're canon: I like C/A because (to cut it short) I saw a special potential in their relationship, and think they'd rock each other's world. ^_^ As much as I enjoy what I saw as going on between them, it doesn't make the couple canon. And them being the more-endorsed couple doesn't do that either (in my opinion anyway). It says something, but it doesn't make them canon in the original game.

I believe that if it was crystal clear that Cloud loved Aeris in the game, there wouldn't be so many fans who honestly believe that he loved Tifa. The fact that there's a conflict in the fandom shows that it isn't as crystal clear as some fans (both rabid CloTi and rabid Cleris) like to believe.

So, I guess my bottom line would be that I think the love triangle is open to interpretation and that's that (from what I gather of the game). It's just that my preference is C/A because of how I personally interpreted the game. ::waves C/A flag:: :cleris:

Well, considering that the decisions in the game that revolved around who Cloud liked more all led up to the dating sim mechanism, I don't put much stock in it. I mean, I truly believe that the dating mechanism was a game, silly and only put there to increase replayability. If you take the dating sim out of the picture and remove all of the optional dialogue that allowed you to choose which girl Cloud would go on the date with, I think it is pretty clear that Cloud loved only Aerith. Cloud cared for Tifa, that is obvious. But, he never expressed anything beyond friendship for her.

I am not really sure if Square intended for Cloud and Aerith to be obvious or more subtle, but I do believe that CxA is the true couple of the game. It is just a little coincidental that all of the games after FFVII were very obvious with who the hero loved and there wasn't near as much symbolism or Japanese cultural influence. Perhaps this was because Square didn't want the same confusion over pairings that had happened in FFVII.

Exactly what I thought, FF_Goddess :lol:

I think the dating sim is just for replay value. I mean, Aeris is the default one...no matter how mean you are to her.....you still have a high chance of getting her and even if you're not mean to her...she's still the default unless you want someone else. (Barret, Yuffie, Tifa...) To me, default are always the true version in almost every game. Game modes are sometimes usually set to default modes (Normal, hero only, etc.) Dating sims are suppose to be fun and objective. You want a certain person, you do this. I played enough to actually screaming at NPC for taking my character's lover. (Especially in Harvest Moon.....I want my little boy to be with Popuri....)

I'm wondering.......if Square did the same thing with the other FF games after 7, adding the dating sim to it too, I think the results would be similar like 7's mess. <_<

Thats why whenever I go past the place where I have to contribute gil,if I can get past the condor area,I'm going to try to aviod even going in the gold saucer,I meen Aeris is the true,so why bother.

FF_Goddess:

Very nicely put! I agree...

HB:

Well...Cleris has always (since the beginning) been endorsed by Square. I can't say the same thing for Cloti. I suppose it's just because Cleris fans are more special?

:rolleyes:

aerithstrife:

I really wonder too. Not everyone is a Rinoa, Yuna, or Garnet fan afterall...

Noone should question that... we're uber special, you know that :winner: lmao

There's no choice about it, you have to go there to continue the game. Besides, if you were nice to Aeris, there's likely no reason she wont show up.

*giggles*

I know we're EXTRA special. The "suppose" and question mark in there was just a mistake. Please forgive me, my wuv... ;) :D

Tidus is able to say that he has the hots for Lulu in one scene, but that doesn't mean that he gets together with Lulu at the end of the game. I think that one option is just to see who rides the motorbike with Tidus later. It has nothing to do with his true love.

Anyway, even if you do go on the date with Tifa, Cloud never says he loves her or anything. He just sits there and asks her what she's trying to say. It's not like the date with Tifa is romantic or anything, whereas you can interpret the Date with Aerith to be romantic... especially since Cloud has the option of telling Aerith after the gondola ride that he wants to go out with her again.

I have never seen the date with Tifa. Can someone post the script to the dates with Tifa and Aerith, just to compare them? ^_^

They used to have the script for the Date with Tifa at Gamefaqs, but they don't any more. Tifa comes to his room and says they should go out for a night at the Park, or something like that. The Play is the exact same as it is on the date with Aerith, with the same choices and everything. During the gondola ride, Tifa sits there and says, "Cloud.... I... I..." and Cloud says, "Hmmm?" Then Tifa says something like, "It's tough being childhood sweethearts" "Aerith wouldn't have trouble saying this" "Cloud... I... I... I..." Then Cloud says something like, "What are you trying to say?" Then Tifa goes "I... I... I..." again. Then the fireworks start up. Those aren't the exact words because that's all from memory... but that's basically all that happens.

Honestly, the dates really don't alter things too much. it's not hard to imagine Yuffie might have a little crush on Cloud or that Tifa would want to admit that she likes him and then hold back. I can even see Barret wanting to talk with Cloud.

Really?? I didn't remember that....what would Aeris's reaction be if you said you'd like to go out with her again?

Tifa said "It's tough being childhood sweethearts." ??

Wow.. the girl has some nerves claiming to be Cloud's childhood sweetheart given the way she treated Cloud when they were kids @,@

Actually, here's the script for you all. :) It's not so bad, really. I'll start with Cloud and Aerith and then give you Cloud and Tifa.

She doesn't say childhood sweethearts in the American version, she just says old friends. Not really romantic at all, though you can tell she's building up for a confession. Cloud's just clueless. :)

So don't worry, she doesn't claim anything that she hasn't claimed before.

Again, like Anastar says, this is for replayability. After all, there's also a Yuffie date where Yuffie literally kisses Cloud. So, going by that, Yuffie's date is the "most romantic", even though she's not even a contender for Cloud's affections. :P So the date has really little significance except for being something fun for the player.

Aerith's date is the only date that's really serious and is about events in the game, which is another reason why I love her. Aerith knows when to be serious and when to try to get Cloud to open up. Unfortunately, the Gondola ride stops before he can respond to her.

This is what you can tell Aerith after the date:

So either Cloud teases her, or he's honest that he wants another date. :) Both answers are cute and shows how wonderfully healthy their relationship is. I always like to have him tease her, just because her reaction is cute. :)

Cloud and Aerith have probably the most special bond of all the FF couples, because they understand each other on many levels right from the beginning. I mean, just look at the beautiful dream sequence, and how Cloud does everything he can to help her during the second disc. If you view the game honestly, not much is left up for interpretation. Not even the date sequences. :)

Oh, and I got the scripts of the dates from:
http://www.yinza.com/FF7/Script/27-Gold_Saucer.html#agondola

So if any of you ever need to pull them up again, you can. :) Yuffie's is on there too, along with the script for the play and for Cait Sith afterward.

Okie, thanks for the corrected translation ^_^
By the way, your avvie is beautiful...

Ah, thanks for the scripts, guys! ^_^

I can't believe some CloTis think that Tifa's date with Cloud is more romantic than his date with Aerith. :rolleyes:

Thanks a ton, Wingless :gift:

I only saw it once a long time ago...and couldn't remember exactly what Tifa had said during that date.

Wingless:

I didn't think Tifa had used the phrase "childhood sweethearts". It's nice to have it confirmed she didn't say such a thing though.

Cloud's completely clueless...that's just so funny. The fact that he was so clueless about her love throughout most of that game, just makes me really doubt this childhood CRUSH people claim took place. Aside from the certain facts that disprove that speculation, why would he be so clueless on how SHE feels IF he'd once felt the same exact thing for her? He should be familiar with those feelings, no? Hardly makes any sense to me. :P

I agree. They're just so darn cute together, aren't they? :cleris:

Hmmm... I remember her saying "childhood sweethearts". I'll have to replay it and see.

Exactly right... the Cloti's often look at what Tifa says and assume that Cloud feels the same way. They do the same thing with the Highwind scene. Tifa says, "Words aren't the only way to show what you're thinking", but all Cloud says is, "............". He's just as clueless in that scene as on the Date with Tifa. Yet, the Cloti's all think that ".............." somehow means that Cloud reciprocates Tifa's feelings. <_<

Back to the original subject: there's nothing in the game that really "proves" either couple. It's all up to interpretation. But the same can be said of a play like Hamlet. Some people interpret Hamlet to show that Hamlet was insane, but not everyone interprets the story that way. Each side has passages in the story to back up their interpretation, and it can't be proven either way.

However, what did Shakespeare have in mind while he was writing the book? Did Shakespeare believe that Hamlet was insane? Did he purposefully write some passages to insinuate that Hamlet might be insane, or are those just interpretations? Is there a correct interpretation? If we were able to ask Shakespeare whether Hamlet was insane or not, would he give us a definite answer, or would he say that it's up to the interpretation of the reader?

The same could be said about FFVII. Even though different interpretations are possible, there may be a "correct" interpretation... just like Shakespeare may have believed that Hamlet was definitely sane.

I think it was not left open to interpretations, in my opinion, since I am following the Asian culture, it is definitely that SE wants to have AerithXCloud. I reckon some western people don't understand the deep meanings of the game (or anything Asian related), because they are 'dumb' and can't interpret the deep meanings hiden in the game.

True SE said that it was 'left open to interpretation', but I reckon they said that to save their business because some people complained that 'it was too deep'

The dating scene is a fluff and it's meant to be funny!! I mean you can go out with Barret if you want!! And if that's not funny I don't know what is!!!

Well, I wouldn't say it's because Western people are 'dumb'.

That's a bit harsh, don't you think? And they are definitely not dumb. I would be more careful of wordings, if I were you.

I think it's just due to different viewpoints.

I'm Asian, and in asian cultures, romantic scenes don't need to be that blatant and outright. When we see two people holding hands or just spending some time alone together with intimate conversations, we tend to be more receptive and immediately interpret such actions as 'romance'.

However, (and this is all IMHO so forgive me if I'm wrong) but I think in Western cultures, romance needs to be shown more blatantly. Ie. a kiss. If it were just a hug or holding hands, Western cultures might consider it to be 'friendly' or 'platonic' but in Asian cultures it tends to be perceived more romantically.

This is probably cause Westerns are much more 'open' about romance compared to Asian. In some Asian countries, displays of affection - even holding hands are almost regarded as taboo, whereas in the West, everything is very open.

So in the case of FF7 - I think one of the reasons why the LTD is still going strong is cause the western audience need a more blatant show (ie Tidus/yuna's kiss, Squall/Rinoa's kiss, Zidane/Garnet's hug) however in FF7, there was no strong romantic scene with neither Aeris nor Tifa to emphasize the cannonity of the couple. That's why it's pretty much open to interpretation. Some people (like me) can see that little scenes such as the date, Cait Sith's prophecy, the death scene, the playground scene, the hand-reach scene - to be very Cleris, however others might need a more blatant scene to be able to see the Clerisness.

So in the end it's up to how the audience perceives it. Again, sorry if what I wrote wasn't accurate. *___*

...I hope I made sense... ^^;

what you said yin-chan is very accurate in my opinion. Being from New York and obviously growing up in a western cultrue it's true. I think that in our culture we take things like saying I love you, or kissing and hugging to mean affection. I have heard from a lot of people who grew up in an aisan culture say that they just don't show affection like we do, it's just the little things and they don't need to hear I love you to know that the person loves them. It's just the way we grew up, like in our culture it's more common for people to say I love you or to hold hands and to hug and kiss and things for a display of affection. I don't think it's because we are dumb it's just a difference in our culture. I believe that's why there are so many fans of Aerith and Cloud as a pairing in Japan and other Aisan cultures then in the West. I went to a Tifa and Cloud fanlisting once and there were 8 fans of them in Japan and over 400 in the USA.

I mean Cloud or Aerith didn't come out in the game and say yes I love you and they didn't share any kind of romantic kiss or anything like that, but I think it's quite clear who the intended couple of the game is. Nothing was left open to inerpretation for me.

I think the dating mechanism is purely just for fun and fluff, I played tons of dating sim games I'm a huge fan of them. They always have a default person that is supposed to be your true love, but you can have the main protagonist fall for whoever you want them to but there is always a default and that's the case with this here. You can have him go for Yuffie or Tifa or neither of the girls, but Aerith is still the default.

I think it's been made clear that SE had wanted people to think harder to find the answers, but that nothing (that would include the LT) had been left hanging. The answers are all there, but just on a much more subtle level. At least, that's what Nomura claims.

I agree with Hades' Daughter. I think that many believe it's open to interpretation because there's a lack of an absolute affirmation (such as a romantic hug or a kiss) of who Cloud has more affection for. However, let's consider this. In the other games, it's pretty damn clear who the hero loves. In FFVIII, Squall clearly loves Rinoa. There's an FVM romantic hug and kiss. In FFXI, Zidane and Garnet also have a romantic hug in FVM (if I'm wrong, please correct me. I never finished FFXI!). In FFX, Tidus kisses Yuna in FMV. In the subsequent games since VII, Square didn't leave it open to interpretation who the canon couple was. So we have to ask ourselves this: why didn't they have an FMV kiss or hug in FFVII?

If Tifa were supposed to be Cloud's love interest, Square didn't show a special romantic FMV just because they didn't feel like it. But because Aerith is Cloud's intended love interest, there was no special FMV between Tifa and Cloud. I'd bet that if Aerith didn't die, she and Cloud would've had a romantic FMV just like the other canon couples of the other FF games.

Basically, I think Square didn't leave it open to interpretation. It's only percieved that way due to the lack of an indisputable declaration.

Why don't I think they left it open to interpretation? I shall point to the Date Mechanism. If it was ALL supposed to be based on player interpretation, wouldn't all four candidates for the date start off with equal scores (or at least Tifa and Aerith would have the same score)? There's a priority, with Aerith right at the top. Her date is the one that the player is skewed into getting. The other dates seem to be only for replay value. The player is not intended to get them. The other dates are just for fun. I think that if they made the game without any couple intended as canon, they wouldn't have set up a priority.

Clotis say that Aerith's date is prioritized only because it went in line with the plot as she had promised a date to Cloud. WHY would the game creators have made Aerith promise Cloud a date in exchange for being a bodyguard if they weren't endorsing the couple? They could have just as easily had Aerith pay off Cloud in some savings she had gathered over the years from selling flowers. They were endorsing a couple. There aren't any other versions of this scene like some Cloti evidence *cough* Highwind scene *cough*. Cloud agreeing to be Aerith's bodyguard for a date is nonoptional. Therefore, I don't think Square was leaving it up to interpretation. It is accidentally seen that way, IMO.

Yes, at the end of FFIX, Zidane and Garnet have (IMO) the most adorable ending where she runs and leaps into his arms, starts crying a bit and he hugs her close--everyone cheers and then just as they appear to be leaning into each other for a kiss, the logo appears and that's that. XD But you could tell what they were about to do. *First RPG she ever played*

I loved that FMV! It was so freaking awesome. ;_;

This was part of an article found in the Newtype USA October issue. It was posted up in another thread by FFG, but I thought I'd post it up in here. Anyway, here's what Nomura had to say about FFVII being "left open to interpretation":

Open Ending: To this day, FFVII continues to draw some fire for its ambiguous ending. It's a satisfying conclusion [and beautiful to behold], but it doesn't hold the player's hand through a lengthy denouement the way 16-bit Final Fantasy games do. That shift in presentation, Tetsuya Nomura insists, was entirely intentional-- the goal was to make players think a little harder and pay closer attention to a more complex storyline. "I don't know if you could really say that FFVII had any unanswered questions to speak of," claims Nomura, taking what some of his fans [or detractors] might characterize as a slightly controversial stand. "We just created FFVII with the idea that we wouldn't just come out and tell people the answers. The answers are there, but no one is there to tell you where to look for them. We didn't leave anything hanging." Nomura, of course, had the advantage of the original game's scriptwriter sitting across the office to point out where to look. But, on the bright side, if Square had spelled everything out, there might not have been enough demand for a sequel like Advent Children.