From what we've seen in Advent Children, Cloud's body language is saying a lot. All of the screens we've seen with Cloud and Tifa show Cloud with his head down, averting his eyes, his eyes downcast, or his back turned to her. That was very evident in the picture on Tifa's desk:



The only time this is different is when Cloud finds Tifa injured in the Church and even then, all we see on Cloud's face is shock and concern. Other than that, Cloud always appears very downcast around Tifa. In the scene where she's nagging him, he appears to feel very guilty and ashamed. There's another scene where Tifa's telling him that he should be fighting Geostigma like Denzel, and once again - Cloud's head is down and his eyes are averted away from her.

Cloud starts the flower field scene the same way - with his back to Aerith and his head down while he asks to be forgiven. But once Aerith says that she never blamed him, he tries to turn around and see her. This is a receptiveness that we've never seen in his behavior towards Tifa in AC. Cloud never turns to face Tifa. Cloud always keeps his head down and his eyes averted when he's around Tifa.

Cloud's body language alone is saying how closed off he is to Tifa. So far, Aerith is the only woman to whom Cloud has shown any receptiveness in AC.

All good points, Anastar! :D I have heard some ridiculous comments from certain CloTis. One of which is how "happy" Cloud is. :rolleyes: I asked them to point out ONE scene from AC in which Cloud is smiling. They were at a bit of a loss. :lol: Also, they like to say that the picture of Cloud with Tifa, Marlene, and Denzel is indicative that Cloud is living with Tifa and that they are in love. :rolleyes: I found this comment to be absurd considering how Cloud looks in that picture. He looks downright miserable. He is looking away from Tifa; he is even partially turned away from her. To me, this shows how disinterested in her he is. It also shows the enormous rift that has grown between them. They may still be close, but they aren't all that close. Not like the CloTis want them to be. ;)

Yeah, that's what me and Tifa were talking about last night when we were re-watching the trailers (to see Kadaj scream, "Dakara?!" or something. :lol: )

When Tifa was nagging Cloud off, he can't even bear to look at her. Based on my interpretation, it's similar to a kid being told of by his mommy for having bad grades. (tsk tsk) He could very well be saying, "All right already, please, I know how useless I am already...." And I suppose it's not just Tifa who made him feel that way--I guess it's with everyone else too. Hm. Or maybe not wheelchaired guy. He talked to Cloud like a devil who tempts or something. :ph43r:

Here's a close up pic of his face when Tifa's nagging at him:



Does he look miserable or what?

I have yet to see the trailer! Everytime I try downloading it, the download stops around 50-60%! :(

And yeah, there is no way Cloud is a family with Tifa with his body language. He just isn't interested in what she's trying to say and it's so obvious. And how the CloTi's think that the picture of him, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel shows them as one big happy family is beyond me. :rolleyes:

It's very evident that he is not really comfortable having Tifa around... it's like he's even annoyed. Maybe that's why he "moved out" and started living in isolation in the church aside from the fact that he has Geostigma and he didn't want her to know... because once she finds out, she'll start nagging again. And guess what, I think he predicted it right; she did nag him about having Geostigma and not fighting it. <_<

Shrouded can't get it downloaded, either. I can't email it from AOL coz it won't let me upload more than 16 MG. Maybe I could email a larger amount from hotmail or gmail or something. If I can find a way to send it, I'll email it to you, too, CG.

Good observation. If Cloud was in love with Tifa, wouldn't he be fighting to live? Would Cloud be so ready to die if he was in love and feeling loved by Tifa? Wouldn't a happy life with Tifa be motivating him to live? If Cloud was in love with Tifa, wouldn't he have moved on already?

great points girls ^_^

THE photo is actually in favor of Clorith, rather than Cloti, unlike most clotis claimed it to be.
Infact, Cloud seemed to be able to open up more to Vinny than Tifa per se...Well, them poor souls have someone to relate to at the least :P

Aly, do you have gmail :o
If ya don't I can send ya an invitation..I have about 3 to give away ^_^..gmail can hold up to erm 100 MB or something...can't remember >.>

No, I don't! An invitation would be great! Then I could email the trailer to Shrouded and Cloud's Girl. :rolleyes: Thank you! :D (The trailer won't upload at hotmail, either :()

CG - PM me with your email address, okay?

And I agree with you, STA. Cloud seemed more able to open up to Vincent than to Tifa. The mere fact that Cloud's unable to tell Tifa about his Geostigma would show more estrangement from Tifa than anything. His body language is indicating the same thing. Cloud's shutting Tifa out. However, Cloud's able to ask Aerith for forgiveness, which is speaking to her from his heart and telling her how he truly feels. Then Cloud turns around to look at Aerith when he can't even look at Tifa in the eyes.

Some very good observations, here! I noticed myself how physically remote Cloud appears to be around Tifa, in contrast with how responsive he is to Aeris' presence. And thinking about it, his body language around Tifa does suggest shame and emotional distance. It doesn't bode well for their relationship that while he's probably feeling a lot, he's shutting her out all the while. While it's clear that he cares about her, and that what she thinks is important to him (hence the guilt/shame), there's too much distance and disinterest to suggest that he loves her romantically deep down. <_<

The look on his face when he finds Tifa injured in the Church, did melt my heart, though. I thought it was a very sweet, sad and touching little moment. ^_^

While I agree with you that he seems very passive, uninvolved and uncomfortable around Tifa, I think it's a bit unfair to put poor Tifa down as a "nag". It's obvious that she doesn't want to make Cloud feel ashamed and inadequate, but she feels strongly about how he's responding to the situation and wants him to change his attitude. Of course she's going to put pressure on him to fight the Geostigma - she loves him and doesn't want to lose him. She's under a lot of emotional strain herself. Sure, she may not be going about things the exact right way, but she's only human. She's been confronted with another loss and people don't respond to that the same way. We don't all react to stressful situations in the best and most helpful way.

For example, whenever I feel that I'm about to lose someone in one way or another, I don't respond by being compassionate and understanding. I respond by being cruel. Even though I care for these people a lot, I become mean, spiteful, guilt-tripping, and icy. I feel hurt, even if these people never intended to hurt me, so I hurt them back very much. I can't help it; I can be very sensitive, so I just feel so deeply angry and hurt and upset that I'll pretend I don't, and at the same time go out of my way to make things doubly difficult for the other person. I'm aware that I'm doing it, and I know I shouldn't, but it's my own personal and natural response. I'm human, and I have flaws.

I'm not suggesting that the same thing is happening with Tifa (in fact, I think the situation is very different), all I'm saying is that people respond to emotionally straining and difficult situations in very different ways (I wouldn't say that Cloud's response is great, either...). People don't react in the best way. Sometimes, they can react in ways that are downright unreasonable. But their hearts are still in the right place, and I don't doubt that Tifa's "nagging" comes from nothing but pain, love and concern. It's unfair to judge her so harshly.

I agree completely, Anastar. In fact, I can't emphasise this point enough. If Cloud loved Tifa, he would be with her and would fight for his life. He isn't with her, and he isn't struggling against death - he isn't in love with her, and didn't fall in love with her during the course of the original game. And if he didn't fall in love with her after going through everything he went through with her in the game, all these intense and terrifying events, then I can't see it very likely that he'll fall for her during AC.

M'kay! Thank you! ^_^

Even if Tifa is "nagging" out of love, I dunno if she understands that it could just make Cloud worse. I think he needs someone to be understanding of him right now. If I were Cloud, I know I would probably feel more depressed because of it. But who knows.

Don't misunderstand; I'm not saying that Tifa's right to be "nagging" Cloud (hell, no!), all I'm saying is that I don't think she should be blamed for it. She isn't trying to nag him, she's trying to encourage him. But her good intentions don't make the end result any better. I agree that what Cloud needs is compassion and understanding and that unfortunately Tifa is reacting in one of the worst ways, by pressuring him. And it's clearly making him feel worse. You could say that that's another aspect against C/T in Advent Children; that her insight and ways of dealing with the situation makes Cloud feel worse about himself rather than encouraging him to fight. You're right that she probably doesn't understand that she's going about it the wrong way, and possibly doing more harm than good, and I totally agree that she's giving Cloud the opposite of what he needs, but I'm just saying that it's a bit harsh to judge her for it. It's just her way of reacting, and I don't think she knows that her method isn't the best response. She isn't "right" to do it, but it's unfair to ignore her good intentions, her genuine concern and desire to help. That's all I'm saying. ^_^

Maybe I'm seeing this wrong, but my impression is that no one here is saying that Tifa is a nag. People are saying that she is nagging Cloud in that situation, and that it's the worst thing she could be doing for him at that moment. It's not her intention to do anything wrong, it's just that it's wrong for Cloud. And the tone of her voice is definitely nagging Cloud in that situation.

We see another example of that when she's trying to encourage him to fight against Geostigma. Again, she's approaching the situation in a way which isn't good for Cloud. That's the point that people are trying to make. We're not judging Tifa, but saying that Tifa's approach to problems like this isn't what Cloud needs. It has only produced further estrangement between them.

It's not a judgement of Tifa, but a judgement of the kind of interactions that take place between Cloud and Tifa. It simply reinforces what we've been saying all along - that a CloudxTifa relationship wouldn't work out well at all.

Funnily enough, some Cloti’s see this as a sign of his love for her—they interpret his closed-offness as shame because he is sick and so incapable of protecting her and giving her the love she needs
If it were love(which it isn’t) then Cloud and Tifa have a very destructive, emotionally estranged relationship indeed…

Yeah, we shouldn’t brand her as a nag, because Tifa’s just doing what she normally does when it comes to Cloud…he is not living up to her expectations, he’s somehow letting her down, and she lets him know that. Her “nagging” is just indicative of what Tifa’s like—she hides lotsa fears deep inside and she vents them by becoming controlling, despite her good intentions. Trouble is, this treatment is really bad for Cloud…
You’re right, Anastar, this whole “nagging” incident just shows how incompatible Cloud and Tifa really are

I was thinking, if he loved Tifa that much, as the Clotis claim he does, then why he's not trying to live? Isn't love something that makes life something to fight for?

Instead of fighting to live, he seems pretty much determined to let Geostigma kill him. He has let that the guilt, take over his thoughts. He's know feeling grief, pain and sorrow for all the times he has failed. He hasn't shown any interest in living for Tifa. But it seems that the memories of Aerith (especially the ones he thinks he failed her) has taken over almost all of his thoughts. He doens't want to live for Tifa, but seems to want to die for Aerith, even if that's something she wouldn't want at all.

I think his body language along with his actions exaplin it all, he's NOT in love with Tifa, but its pretty much determined to find Aerith.

Anastar:

Clerith-son:

Exactly, guys... :)
According to the Clotis, searching for his "friend" Aeris and asking her for forgiveness is more important to Cloud than staying and getting with Tifa, the love of his life. That's "true love" for ya right there, all ya dumb Clerises... <_<

I would think guilt is a mere feeling when compared to true love. Why dedicate your time to searching for a dead friend just to ask for forgiveness when you can dedicate that time to the love of your life? Even better, why not get with the love of your life and search for that dead friend at the same time? :woot:

I guess that dead "friend" IS his love...hence, it's why he's dedicated his time to her instead of that other girl :cleris:

I totally agree with you guys, and your point, Hades, is spot on - feeling guilty alone does not adequately explain Cloud's preoccupation with the death of Aerith... period. There's something else going on in Cloud's mind... or heart...

Even in the recent pictures of Cloud with Tifa, he is facing away from her. Tifa is gazing at him, but he has his back to her. This says a lot about their relationship and there is no way in hell they are "living together", like CloTis want to believe. If they were close enough to live together, Cloud would not appear to be so uncomfortable around Tifa and I don't think he would be as distant.

I totally agree with you FF_G! It would make a WHOLE lot of sense with Cloud and Tifa "working together",it just makes sense.

Well Cloud already has his fogiveness,why should he feel miserable...Aerith said it was never his fault why should he still feel miserable,that I don't understand.Maybe it's guilt but with personal emotions.

Cloud seems more closer to Aerith than with Tifa for some reason.

Here's how I see it:

In the picture above Cloud is obviously withdrawing emotionally from Tifa. His eyes are shuttered and his face is almost blank. He doesn't feel comfortable enough with her to be open around her.

When Cloud is in the field with Aerith his face is open and he doesn't hide the pain he is feeling. He obviously feels comfortable being open with her. (He looks just like a lost puppy and I want to hug him :huggle: )

Cloud only ever opened up like that with Aerith, he did try to connect a *little* with Tifa but she is too rough and shut him down without meaning to. When that happened too many times she lost any chance she had with him. He is the kind of person who doesn't trust easily and once trust is lost it cannot be regained.

Very well said, Vash... that's exactly the way I see it, too.

Someone else on this forum said that Tifa smothered Cloud, and I think that's a perfect way of putting it. She wants him to reciprocate so much, but she manages to smother any response that he tries to make. He can't move without her pouncing on him. Tifa doesn't mean to do that, but she does... and it causes Cloud to withdraw.

One thing that gets me is how clotis say that Cloud is quiet around Tifa (has his back to her and such) because he's guilty. They make up possible reasons like he's ashamed because of the Geostigma and not being there for her and the kids. But he could fight and be there for them if that's what he wanted.

From what I've seen of Square, even guilty heroes are able to face the ones they love and reach out to them. In FFX-2, Shuyin tries to find Lenne. He reaches out to Yuna when he believes that she is Lenne because even though he's ashamed and guilty, Lenne is in his heart and he wants to be with her. Cloud hasn't shown that he wants to be with Tifa. It's Aeris he's trying to reach, and she's the one he's trying to face, like Shuyin and Lenne.

Lenne and Aeris are both souls that are at peace, but they are still in contact with the ones that they love. Everything is about trying to be together again. That's why I can't understand when people compare ShuLenne to CloTi, it just doesn't add up at all.

So true! They are like almost identical!!!!!1 :cleris:

Edit : Never mind. -_-

Huh? :mellow:

exactly. And that's what CloTi fans obviously skip. If he loved her so much, no matter how hard it is to fight this disease, he would strive to live. And if ever, just IF, he really did love tifa and thought that his sickness is impossible to cure, then wouldn't he be living his days to the fullest. Or better yet, to live with Tifa, look at her eyes while talking,t alk more, etc etc. :yawn: BUT NO he even does the opposite. and that's because he love dAerith moe, and he wanted to be with her, even if that means death.... :sad:

then again, cloud always looked miserable in the movie.. except around the ending... :D

But you're missing the point. IF he were in love with Tifa, why would he be miserable around her? IF he felt loved by Tifa, why does he feel that he can't live up to her expectations? IF he felt loved by Tifa, why doesn't he feel that he can make her happy?

Cloud shouldn't look miserable around Tifa if he loves her, feels understood by her, and feels appreciated by her. The only reason he looks miserable around her is because he doesn't feel appreciated, doesn't feel understood, and doesn't feel loved by her. Why do you think he moved out in Case of Tifa? Why do you think he turned around to try to see Aerith when she talked to him, but not Tifa?

Whether how Cloud's body language affects how he interacts with Tifa or not,
I do agree that in AC, whenever he was with Tifa, he looked kind of...miserable
and gloomy. And I won't blame Tifa for nagging him that much. If I had a friend
who doesn't have the will to live anymore, I would maybe act the same
as her. I won't say it like he/she is doing something wrong but would try to
encourage her.

And I also do agree that Cloud seems to be more open towards Vincent,
Aerith...and etc. When he was with Tifa, he was...hardly talking but when
I saw him with Vincent, he was talking...actually having a conversation!!
(Not saying that he didn't have a conversation with Tifa though)

And I don't really see how the CloTis see Cloud's disregardness towards
her as proof that he loves her. But at the same time, they would be ranting
that this is all just our assumption and that it is the truth. (Like...whatever <_< )

I thought that Cloud's body language in AC totally showed that he had no romantic feelings for Tifa, whatsoever.
After the fight with Loz, Cloud runs over to the fallen Tifa. He seems concerned, yet he doesn't hold her closely like he did to Aerith. He also didn't look at her much, and only said "Damnit" when he realized his materia was missing.

When he woke up from his "attack" (don't know what else to call it) he realizes Tifa is still unconcious, so he stays with her. Clotis I've encountered say that this is a sign that he loves her. Not to me. Sure, he wants to protect her, but there is no romance there. He doesn't sit beside her bed, staring at her, touching her hand and face, apologizing for not being to protect her. He sits by the window, as if thinking about something else. He doesn't even ask "How are you feeling?" when she woke up.

Where do Clotis get the idea that Cloud had ever loved Tifa?!
Is it because you are able to choose either to be nice, or be a total jackass to her in the game??

Ridiculous. :no:

I think you have it, actually. The only way CloTis would ever believe Cloud doesn't love Tifa is for him to be a complete bastard to her. I mean, you are talking about the same group of people who, upon seeing Aerith standing next to Zack in AC, started crowing that Zeris is canon. :yawn: If standing next to someone or walking out a door with someone means they are in love, then Cloud must be in love with Reno, Rude, Rufus, Aerith, Tifa, Kadaj, pretty much everyone in the movie. :lmao:

Honestly, I have some guy friends in my life that I absolutely adore. And I would most likely treat them in the same way Cloud is treating Tifa in AC. I would be upset if I found them unconscious somewhere and I would probably hold them the same way he held her. I would also be mad as hell at whoever had hurt them. :angry: Does this mean I am in love with them. NO WAY. :puke: I love them like they are my brothers, but I don't have any romantic feelings for them at all. Alternately, if I were in love with someone, I sure as hell wouldn't let my guilt over the death of a "mere friend" stop me from being with them! <_<

Strange....now that you mention it....Cloud didn't seem very mad at the SHM (or Loz, specifically), for hurting Tifa. He barely mentioned it at all! :huh: Even his little curse was because his materia was missing. :huh:

lol

OMG I never noticed that! U are completely correct!

He did not really care, he only grabed her, but he didnt even picked her up or anything. He was just thinking about his stolen materia and then geostigma came to effect.

More prof! :cleris:

Heh. I don't think it's 'proof' or anything. Just a little observation I made.

I'm sure he was feeling concern for Tifa at that time, who wouldn't when your friend is lying unconscious in your church? After all, he did stay by her side while she was knocked out. I'd expect no less from him.

Good point!! i never noticed it. Now everything is more clear. :lol:

Well he was knocked out, he could not get away even if he wanted to...

good points

hello hello....i usually am in the dark in forums but i just had to insert my two sense in here :P

you know....it just kind of hit me right now....

well let me first start out by saying that im sorry if i am repeating this question....i was too lazy to read through every single reply for this topic :whistle:


but my quesiton to all of you is what on earth do you think cloud would have done if he was able to turn around and look at aerith before he "woke up"

it is a very big deal that she is the only one he seems to respond to.....physically, in a certain sense though his body language.... and when he tries to turn around to see her.... its just been picking at my brain.... :unsure:

do you think he would have just looked at her? i dont.....but i really dont have a clue as to what he actually would have done because hes so hard to read when it comes to expressing his emotions. it was all just very dramatic at that point in time..there was almost a sense of need in him to turn around to see her...but where on earth would it have gone from there?

I think Cloud probably would have stood there in stunned amazement for several moments.

**SPOILERS** I got the impression from the Bahamut battle that it was the first time Cloud had actually seen Aerith. He may have been talking to her before or interacting with her in dreams. However I don't think Cloud had seen Aerith since her death. The look of amazement on his face when he saw her during the battle convinced me of that. **END SPOILERS**

Anyways, after Cloud's initial shock, I think he would have spoken with Aerith for several moments, and maybe attempted to take her hand. Cloud would never be the type to throw his arms around anyone, even the woman he loves. But, I really don't think he would have minded a bit if Aerith had hugged him. :P

That's very true. After Aerith died, he was SO MUCH MORE driven to destroy Sephiroth. He states it so afterwards if my memory serves me correctly. Anyway, he asks Tifa who did this, she doesn't know, and that's the end of it. Err, I don't know. I would imagine him to be a little more pissed off if he loved her... :unsure:

Anyway, back to body language. In the end, after Tifa smiles at him, he looks down AGAIN. Even after everything, maybe he gives a little smirk, but he still looks down. That's not the typical reaction of a man whose in love with the woman who just smiled at him. However, when he sees Aerith, his head isn't down at all. Even after she leaves, he doesn't look down.

As has been aforementioned in earlier posts, Cloud keeps his head down with a somber look in his eyes for a good majority of the movie. Other than the very end and in battles, the only time we don't see Cloud keep his head down when he's talking to someone is when he tries to turn around to look at Aerith in the flower field (awww, poor Cloud :sad: )

In regards to the scene in the church when Cloud finds Tifa, maybe it's just me, but he didn't sound heartbroken or anything on par with those extreme emotions. He seemed upset and concerned at the most. But who wouldn't react that way if they saw their friend that injured? Maybe Cloud didn't sound devestated because he wasn't *cough* he doesn't love her *cough*.