Discuss here all about the scene after Tifa and Loz's fight in the church. When Cloud sweeps her up in his arms :puke: and gazes at her :puke: ... Duh? He only looked at her for what...? about three minutes? And he never shook her like he did when Aerith was in his arms. I NEVER... EVER... found this ROMANTIC one bit!! Loz should've finished her off. Just joking!! I love Tifa all the way!! :D *goes to one corner* :puke:

So what do you think?? :)

Mmm, well I think there was a bit of a difference here. When Cloud was holding Aeris, shaking her, he seemed to be in shock (for lack of a better word) about her sudden death. The realization that you'll never get to see someone you care very much about laugh again, or hear their voice doesn't really compare to finding a dear friend who has been knocked out. Because Cloud's geostigma acted up at that point I suppose we will never find out what his actual reaction would have been, (track down Loz, reclaim materia? Find a new bar to drink at until Tifa wakes up?)

oh, no no no no!!! :puke: what's so romantic about Cloud lifting Tifa off the ground...? Word.

there's not even a hint of romance in that scene! :| it was leading to a "Clerisy" moment when Cloud walked in the church (i wonder what he was going to do...)...then Tifa had to BE there. <_< oh well.

I second that. Although he did say her name twice quite frantically...:yawn:

:lmao: nice one!

Bah. If the scene would have continued without his geostigma reaction he would have left and searched for Marlene. =P

And I have a theory on why Cloud was unconscious next to Tifa. Well as we already know, Tifa was already unconscious before Cloud's geostigma kicked it. But right after all of those scenes that obviously showed he was in pain, a water drop falls. I think Aeris acted here and got rid of the pain the geostigma was causing to Cloud and he blacked out after that. I remember a long time ago in ACF(when AC first came out and everyone was looking for easter eggs) I thought I found an easter egg.(Or it might have been someone else, it's been so long) Of course I'm still not sure.

Here's the scene. This was when the camera was in first person view of Cloud falling.



Look like Aeris sort of walking away to you? The scene is cropped, enlarged and slowed down for easier viewing.

Hmm, I'm not to sure about that. After seeing the amount of prodding it took for Tifa to get Cloud to go out and save the kids I'm not sure if he'd be all gung-ho about finding Marlene right away. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Cloud doesn't care about Marlene).

Ohh, I never thought of that before. It took me a while to see what you were talking about in the picture but now that you mention it, it does look like someone is walking to you and it does look like that someone is Aeris, (rather than Reno and Rude). :gift:

I didn't mean he would go to the forest or anything. But right before his geostigma kicked in Tifa jumped up and said, "Marlene!" and Cloud was looking around the church for her.

Plus he wouldn't have known to look in the forest anyways since Rude and Reno were the ones who informed him of this after he came to.

Ugh, I hate when CloTis use this scene as "proof". :puke:

Stupid CloTi evidence #28473562: "Cloud rescues Tifa in the church and a romantic scene ensues of them lying in flowers!"

Are you saying that Cloud wouldn't rush to rescue Barret or Yuffie??? Are you also saying that Cloud holding an injured Kadaj toward the end was romantic??? Cloud rushing to aid an injured friend is something that Cloud just does-- it is part of his nature. And the fact that Cloud also holds Kadaj when he is injured completely negates any idea that Cloud holding a fallen Tifa holds any romantic connotations.

Next, let us look at the scene of Cloud and Tifa lying in the flowers, which some CloTis claim is romantic. I am going to prove that this scene is merely pretty CloTi fodder with absolutely no CloTi substance behind it. It is totally shallow, merely there to titillate the CloTi fandom with an attractive image for them to rip for the sigs and avvies. But, is there anything remotely CloTi about this scene? Nope, not a thing... and here's why:

a. Location, location, location. The scene itself takes place among flowers planted and tended to by Aerith before her death-- flowers that have become a sort of symbol for Aerith herself. Not only that, but this scene takes place in Aerith's church, the place where she and Cloud first met. Add in the fact that "Water", music that only plays when Aerith's presence is near, and the fact that Cloud and Tifa are surrounded by a white light that only appears when Aerith is on screen and the idea starts to become more concrete. Throw in the wolf, the symbol of Cloud's guilt, standing right next to him and the truth reveals itself-- the scene is actually all about Aerith. Cloud and Tifa lying unconscious in Aerith's flowers, in Aerith's church, while Aerith's music plays, surrounded by Aerith's light, and accompanied by the symbol of Cloud's guilt for Aerith's death... and you came up with the idea of a CloTi romance how??? 0_o

Just to hammer this home, I have proof from Reunion Files:

"There's some foreshadowing that the church is where Aerith is going to appear," says Nojima. "There's a point in the plot where Cloud and Tifa are lying unconscious on the flowers here and their wounds are healed. Also, Aerith has a sort of 'watery' image about her, so we used water to convey her presence."

So, yeah, you CloTis can go on all you want about CloTi this and yin-yang symbolism that, but you know what? The creators say otherwise. The creators stated that the scene was about Aerith healing Cloud and Tifa and foreshadowed her later appearance in the church. So, please do us all a favor and stop making up shit.

b. Total hypocrisy. Cloud lying unconscious from a terminal illness in flowers next to Tifa, who has been beaten to the point of unconsciousness is "romantic", according to the CloTi side of the fandom. And yet (according to the CloTis) Cloud standing next to Aerith in a flower field, where he speaks of his deepest emotional issues and tries to see her face is not. Also, apparently, according to the CloTi fandom, Cloud riding out through a field of flowers to meet up with Aerith and keeping loads of pictures of this flower field, not to mention picking flowers from said flower field means nothing. And, yeah, you get the picture.... What BS.

So, where is the CloTi evidence from this scene??? As I have proven already, the scene was about Aerith, not some cliche CloTi idea of romance. So, S-E gave the CloTi fandom their pretty, shallow scene so they can use it for wallpapers and such without any true substance behind it.

To be blunt, no, I didn't find the scene romantic for Cloti. Elements that could have made the scene romantic were completely missing.

1) No romantic music playing in the background - Had that element been in there, it would have softened everything up and it most likely would have transformed the scene into something rather sweet and tender. When music did come on, it was the Water theme, a theme that's actually associated with Aerith and not Tifa. For me, that completely destroyed any thoughts of Cloti.

2) The scenery - It was completely set up for Aerith, not "Cloud and Tifa's moment". The scene took place in Aerith's Church, and the fact that all the pretty flowers surrounding the two belonged to her destroyed any notion that a scenery had been purposely set up for a Cloti moment.

3) Aerith's presence - I don't think this one really needs any explaining. If anything had been about to happen between Cloud and Tifa...well, Aerith just destroyed that moment by intruding in on them then. Not a very romantic scene. :P

Also, the fact that concern for Marlene was zoomed in on at that moment really didn't help Cloti at all. It's obvious that more than anything, both Tifa and Cloud were thinking about Marlene's safety.

BTW, what you bring up is very interesting, MCS. It could just be a coincidence, but that scene does look like it contains an Aerith easter egg. :D

IMO, it doesn't really matter though whether that's true or not. RF already confirmed the existence of Aerith's presence there. I believe that during that scene, she actually healed both Cloud and Tifa...hence, why the both of them were shown surrounded by hazy white light, pretty flowers, etc. RF even said both Cloud and Tifa were healed there. Clotis think all that was suppposed to hint towards some kind of a Cloti romance...but I don't think anyone with a clear head and not grasping at straws would deny that SE was actually showing off Aerith's healing talents. ^^

EDIT: I must have submitted this post right after FFG did. A lot of our thoughts are the same, but I didn't want to erase a post I'd spent several minutes typing up. :P

Yeah!! What they say!! Nope!! Nah ah! No romance at all! That's exactly what I thuoght. If it were a Cloti moment they should have used Tifa's theme which,by the way,doesnt give relevance to the whole scene. :cleris:

And by the way I think I saw Aeris walking to the side. Where can I find this whole ACF vid? Can you post a link? Thanks very much... :fangirl:

Ok, back to business. Compare Cloud's reactions towards Tifa's death scene at Mt. Nibel with Aerith's death scene at the City of the Ancients. To whom does he give importance more? You know Tifa couldve died when Sephiroth slashed her. What do you think? :)

Actually, according to the game script, Cloud DID think she was dead.

That kinda said it all for me.

^ Well then that breaks this down, ne? There's nothing wrong or romantic about holding your friend who is in danger. Dear, even Cloud held Kadaj. And he was about to die.

It said a lot for me, really. Cloud thought Tifa was dead before he met her again in FFVII--and we all know how that reunion went.

Tifa: Cloud! :D
Cloud: Mah money, plz.

If what you claim is true (not to doubt you but some sources be shakey, ya?) then we can examine the differences in Cloud's reactions.

Aerith's Death
- Cloud starts shaking with hystaria. Many people, when in complete emotional termoil, shake!
- He had a speech. It sounded almost prepared! (Did Nostrodamus predict her death? Ooooh!)
- Crying. He actually busted out in tears. Crapy little polygons didn't let us see 'em but common sense with the way he was moving would suggest he was crying.
- Carried the body to the lake. What a long walk too. Through that area, up the stairs, and out the sea shell door!
- Funeral seemed to be a VERY personal moment for him. Notice that no one else is shown. Her death was a major blow for Cloud. Sure it hurt the rest of AVALANCHE but the emphasis was on Cloud's pain.

Tifa's "Death" (She lives!)
- Doesn't notice her at first. He just strolls in and after a little gander happen to notice a dead chick in the flower patch.
- Simply says "Tifa!" No speech or drama mama freak out. No tears, look of disspair, or hysteria. Simply appeared worried. Shouldn't he flip if he loves this lady?
- Glances around while holding her, even before she speaks! Why? I would think he is worried that what ever mangled her may still be around and do him harm. Self-preservation > SAVIN YO KOIBITO? Oh my...

Think about it.

Well NekoDonno those are some pretty good points but you're forgetting an important factor-- Aeris died before Cloud's eyes. When Cloud walked in the church I pretty sure he didn't expect Tifa to be there, so he wasn't exactly looking for anyone, Tifa was also lying in the flower patch which is a bit lower than the floor boards, (I think, I don't happen to have the movie on me at this moment). I think by the time he actually grabs her he realizes she's alive, (body temperature normal, breathing, etc.) and he looks around, maybe to find a clue of who did this, (maybe he was looking for his materia). Cloud cares about Tifa, they might not have been close friends as kids but over two years I don't think it's fair to say he wouldn't be shaken by her death.

In AC, when Cloud looks around, it was where his Materia stash was, just for clarification.

And yes, Cloud did think Tifa was dead--I forget exactly which part of the game it was, but Cloud said something to the effect of 'yeah, I thought you were a goner.'

:ermm:

Not one hundred percent positive, but I was pretty sure Cloud said somewhere in the game that during the Nibelheim incident, he was there and had seen Tifa get cut down by Sephiroth. You can check the script again if you'd like.

We're not saying he doesn't care about Tifa. He does. It's just funny that he seemed to have expressed more concern and emotions with his "mere friend" Aerith.

Just to confirm, he does say this after the Nibelheim flashback in Kalm. After Cloud finished telling his story, there's some talk between him and Tifa and he says he thought she was "a goner" and was "really sad".

As for the church scene in AC-- I never thought it meant to parallel Cloud losing Aerith, hence the lack of any drama surrounding Cloud finding Tifa (or of her recovery after that). It feels like we're comparing apples and oranges or something. :unsure:

Oh, I was unsure of which instance that we were talking about (Nibelheim and the church that is). I can't say to much about the Nibelheim incident because it wasn't just Tifa. It was Tifa, his mom, everyone in town, not to mention Zack was hurt. Cloud basically just watched his hero go crazy, and single handedly harm everyone he had ever cared for. His reaction was a bit different from his reaction to Zack's death and Aeris', he simply picked up Zack's sword and charged. So I simply don't know...

I don't think it matters how many people he thought had died. Fact is, he just saw the girl he supposedly loves get cut down right in front of him. It's comparible to Aerith's scene, IMO. During Aerith's, Cloud even said that Sephiroth's "stupid plans" didn't mean a thing now that she was gone. Sounds like he was holding her in higher regards than Sephiroth's plans to destroy a whole world...and to me, that says a lot. That was his chance to catch Sephiroth, yet, Cloud let him get away. Going back to Tifa's scene, well, if Nibelheim and everything else was just as important to him and if fighting Sephiroth was uppermost on his mind then it's really not saying as much for Tifa. That's just my nit-picky opinion, of course.

Same here...

He was just checking out if she's still alive and it was natural for Cloud to hold her in his arms, though I'd love to see him poking her in the face.

Cloud (checks out Tifa): *poke* *poke* Still alive?!

If that was supposed to be a 'romantic' scene, which the CloTis claimed it to be, shouldn't Cloud wait for Tifa's response before looking around?

I don't think I can add anything better, but I can support all your saying by posting the original script:

<Tifa's part>
Tifa: "How bad was I when Sephiroth cut me?"

Cloud: "I thought you were a goner. ......I was really sad."

*After Cloud runs into the Reactor::

Cloud: "I saw...... everything......"
(The guard dashes up the stairs to where Zack lies atop the pod. He grabs
Zack's sword and, laying it across his back, dashes up the stairs. Inside
Jenova's room, he rushes up to Sephiroth. Sephiroth turns just in time to
stabbed through the stomach by the guard.) ED:So it's Zack who carefully put injured Tifa aside, am I wrong?

"Mom ... Tifa... my town ... give it back..."

(ED:So Cloud takes not only Tfa but those things as equal important to him)

<Aerith's part>

Cloud
"The cycle of nature and your stupid plan don't mean a thing ."
"Aerith is gone."
"Aerith will no longer talk, no longer laugh, cry...... or get
angry......"

...It seems like the whole universe means nothing to Cloud, don't ya think? :cry:

(*back to topic)
Cloud's reaction to Tifa in the church seems quite nature to me. I focus on his look in this scene and I cannot find anything else but WORRY. His first shout of her name awakes Tifa a little, knowing she's not "a goner" and then he quickly turns to asks "who did this?"(err, Cloud, why don't you react/say something to Tifa's "you're late" if you dare not to make her unhappy??) After Tifa falls into unconsciousness, Cloud places her on one of his arm, stops waking/watching her but checks around the church.....well, nothing special really. I would say Cloud's staring at Kadaj's face in his arm impresses me more :P
IMO, Clotis' using this as their supportive thread is pathetic. They could screenprint this shot and make beautiful banners but Cloud's face still doesn't express love at all.... :ermm:

All right now... I have posted my reactions in the FF. net forums and maybe some of you didnt see it... Actually I posted it a long time ago so here it is now!! :)

:cleris:

... and I was mad that Clotis had an scene for making avatars... banners.. layouts u_u... and I didn't noticed the points you posted here, now i'm happy :D haha. No Cloti moment *w*

Still, it doesn't change the fact that the image is used for CloTis...




:cleris:
but... I'm happy notting happened there

LOL, Karura--I don't mind them using that for their graphics, I mean it IS very pretty. ^_^ Fans are fans after all. I just don't see real romantic basis behind it... It surely was more a hint of Aerith's presence rather than anything else. She heals both Cloud and Tifa here, right? Excellent points by the way, everyone!

OH SCHNAP! After spending forever trying to look for Aerith, I just focused on the animated/moving part and tilted my head to the left and SAW HER. WOW, THAT'S COOL! Thanks for sharing, MCS! :lol: ~is so amused~ I am saving this, don't ask me why. x)

I believe what you said is true Hades' Daughter. :o I think that cloud only wants Tifa as a good friend. :cleris:

Yeah, right on aerith_blossoms! I mean c'mon! If Tifa was very important to Cloud he might have not left her in Seventh Heaven to be alone with the kids. I know he has serious problems like Geostigma but why in Aerith's church? There are so many places he can go like Cosmo Canyon or Nibelheim or well... you get the idea. But why Aerith's church?? He loves her that's why!! :cleris:

Um...no offense to anyone but...look CLOSER at that image. Tilt your head. There isn't ONE figure, it's TWO. It is Reno and Rude coming into the church to get Cloud and Tifa. I don't know how they knew they were there, I can only assume that Rufus sent them to follow Cloud and try to further convince him to help.

I'll try and find a bigger screenshot. I hate to burst everyone's "Aerith's figure in the church" bubble, but it'd be worse if someone used that in the fight against the CloTi "romantic" church scene and got rebuffed.

Huh. The first few hundred times I looked at that image, I couldn't see a thing. But now, looking at it from a different angle, it does appear to be two figures. Could be my horrid eyesight, I'm really not sure.

Ohhh, thanks Amathala! :huggle: I completely see what you're talking about.

That's cool!! Very, very slick, S-E is. :P It all makes sense.

I don't think anyone ever thought of using Aerith's supposed easter egg in the LTD. I just thought it was rather interesting to know. :lol:

lol
Even Rufus (Reno/Rude) know that Cloud can be found in Aerith's Church xD

*goes back into the shadows*

Why cross that out?? I've never taken to mind that before!! Its totally true!! Wee! Hooray for Clorith!! This is what SE wanted us to realize! Phew! :D

I just recently watched the movie. Before I watched it, though, I saw screen captures everywhere of that scene in the church with Cloud holding Tifa, and I thought, "Oh, is he supposed to like her now?" Then I watched the movie and after watching that scene, I thought, "That was it?" There wasn't anything romantic about it. It was a pretty scene though, with the flowers and all. But no chemistry between them. A sigh of relief for me. :)

^It was when he had was talking with tifa and told him that but..eh..I'm not sure if it was on the Lifestream scene or the Highwind scene..or..*goes and plays FF7*

<Eh well that scene wasnt romantic at all, ok he just was returning to his home (which happens to be Aerith's church) after talking with Rufus so he actually didnt know that Tifa was there ok he got surprised that she was there on the floor, beaten up and all (maybe he wanted to take her out of her loved Aerith's flowers XD ..that was a joke actually) ok he got worried but when he said
"Tifa?...Tifa!" ok she shoke her a bit but not in desperation like he did with Aerith he was absolutely desperated when she died *sniff* ok but then when Tifa said

Tifa:"You're late"
Cloud: "Who did this?"
Tifa "He didn't say....MARLENE!" and she sat up

So she wasnt that hurted :rolleyes: then Cloud was about to stand up and she fell again in his arms and just notice the look on his face hehe.
Ok so I think that he was more worried for Arith than for Tifa..ok but yeah scenes are different...
Either way, it seems that Cloud has always been more worried about Aerith than Tifa herself, there's the Shinra headquarters sequence and even Wall Market sequence, also following her to the City of the Ancients and all..ok..I think I went a little offtopic..

Honestly, if the woman or man you loved was lying unconscious, would you pop up and go "WTF, who did this?" Or would you ask them if they were okay? Seriously, if that was my BF lying there, the first words out of my mouth would be to ask how bad his injuries are and if he is okay or not. Finding out who did it would be important, but not more important than his well-being, that's for damn sure.

Actually, if I ever find the love of my life being pounded into unconsciousness, the first rule is to hunt the person who hurt said love of life and kicked his ass out of the planet with great justice. Guilt be damned. No one gets away hurting my main squeeze.

Then again, I'm a traditional girl.

:mellow: :mellow:
I'm with you, Anti-R, I'll feel angry and wanna kick that baster's @ss for that seems to be the first I'd ever think of...but I dunt think we're traditional for that matter, :D I saw looooots of traditional, old-fashoned dramas which prefer to spotlight characters' crying/shouting/hugging the lover in the arms in many mtvs or plays.....so maybe we're somewhat newfangled, no? ;)

But that's tha case if my lover's "not dead, only falls into unconsciousness". Cloud's almost sure enough that Aerith's fatally wounded after Sephy stabbed her while Tifa gave a quick "Uh..." right after Cloud held her in the arms in the flowerbed.....so, what's the point should I compare I truely dunno... :P (*being kick butt :blush: )

I never really thought this scene was romantic at all... and i felt as though such a big deal was made about it with like all the pictures that were released of it before the film was released...

IMO the scene where Cloud is holding Kadaj is more damn romantic than when he is holding Tifa... :whistle: (well i think that music is sad at that part)

Well thats just my oppinion

Yeah thats true but you think he would at least ask if she was okay after he asked who had hurt her... just good manners :D

I thought Cloud seemed alarmed and everything (why wouldn't he? they're practically family), but I still don't see it as romantic.

When Tifa stirs, there's no romantic interaction between them. Cloud doesn't smile in relief once he realizes that she's okay. He doesn't pet her hair in loving concern when she passes out again. To me, the purpose of the scene was to establish how Aerith is still watching over them--she heals them both when they're hurt in her church.

OMG! I love your short but so sharp and meaningful description of this scene.. It's so true!!! :)

Yeah, I agree with everyone.. Thinking about it.. He enter the church, walking while he deep in thought (I bet what was in his mind on that time was only Aerith), stopped at the verge on the flowerbed, not at his sleep spot.. The idea that he went back to the church only for Aerith was blatantly showed here.. AND without knowing that Tifa was there.. geeezzzz.. <_<

I always compare this to 'Calling' and FFVII!Forgotten City(when Cloud said he can hear Aerith) scene, Tifa(CXT) was nowhere to compete with this kind of connection of CloudXAerith :cleris:

For God sake, Cloud was even doing a sexy catwalk sequence before he ACCIDENTALLY found Tifa! :P

Agreed, I think in CC there is a scene like this where Tifa passes out by Sephiroth and Cloud comes and rushes to her side and smiles and pets her hair. If he still loved her like in CC, he would have done the same thing like back at the Nibelhim Rector, but he doesn't, he just simply picks her up off the ground and he just happens to pass out beside her, It's nothing.

I know a lot of people sway to CloTi just by looking at a picture of this scene. :rolleyes: