I've seen a couple of threads drift in this direction recently, with people giving their interpretion of what's meant by this phrase, so I thought it'd be best to give the issue its own thread. I know there's also a topic that tackles this in the Venting Forum, but there's a lot of personal complications in that thread, plus it's for Venting. So in a new thread, everyone has access and we can share views and evidence rather than just blow steam about how much this line gets taken out of context and blown out of proportion... :rolleyes:

So, what's your interpretion of the use of "koibito" in describing Tifa, and how do you think it affects the LTD?

Maybe I've just read bad translations or something, but I can't see the issue here. And I don't have a clue why people have taken it, and its correct translation (or its place in the sentence), so seriously. And in my eyes, it's quite a stretch to interpret it as saying anything concrete about the LTD.

The most common translations I've seen are "sweetheart" and "lover", so I'll go with those for now. Yes, they both have strong romantic implications. That's fine, I have no problem with that because you can interpret Tifa as a sweetheart or lover, or even someone whose love is returned. The sentence was all about describing Tifa and how her dimensions (and considering those dimensions when portraying her in AC), right? So some can see her as more of a mother figure, others see her as more of a warrior or friend in battle, wheras others can see her as a romantic figure. They're her personality traits, as well as how her character is most often perceived.

Even if it also refers to her roles, it's true that she is often seen as a romantic heroine - it's a popular interpretation of her role (same goes for Aeris). Her role can (and has) also been interpreted as a friendly/supportive or a maternal one. She can - and is - seen as all these things by different people. Like the quote states, there's a lot of dimensions to her character.

Sweetheart/Lover is there because people do see her as that. We all know this. To me, it's not saying anything more than that you can see Tifa as a lover, or someone in a romance. And it's true - it's easy to interpret her life-story that way. Of course, you can also see her as a friend or motherly figure; those aspects of her character as just as true. And more importantly, these are all interpretations the creators of AC had to respect when approaching her character and role in the movie; which is what the whole passage is about, right?

Basically, it's never struck me as that complicated, or worth being turned into a big deal, or as over-analyzed as it sometimes is by both sides of the LTD. But what do you guys think?

I personally don't think it should affect the LTD at all but for some reason it does. For one Cloud wasn't even mentioned in the sentence was he? So i think its silly how it does affect both sides but oh well, its bound to happen.

If you mean that she is a loving person (probably not i am pretty dense after all) thats how i would kind of take it, Tifa is a very loving person and i well love that about her

I do think though that Tifas main role in AC is to provide love and support which she does do a good job of, especially the love part. I also think that every character in AC loves her but to me most of them (maybe all of them) in a non-romantic way.

I do actually think its a kind of difficult thing because both sides see it as something completely different and have just taken it their own way, i personally think its an argument that has been taken out of context quite alot but thats just me i guess


also i'm sorry if this isn't the kind of response you were looking for :)

xx

Personally, I think that people blow the koibito thing out of proportion. D:

Nomura said she's a sweetheart, pretty much. Cloud isn't ANYWHERE on the page! xD I'm pretty sure he was saying that she is a sweetheart, her personality, that is. D:

Sorry that I don't have a long response...I just get straight to the point. xDD

Eh, I've already said what I thought on it, so here's a summary:

Koibito is not a word to throw around frivolously, so if it's used in a sentence without being tied to a specific name (i.e. 'This is ___-san, who is the lover of ____-san' or something to that effect), then it is not meant to be taken literally and context has to be taken into consideration--this is how it was explained to me by my Native-Japanese client, who taught the language to her two sons and is going to teach it to her grandchildren.

So basically, anyone who uses 'koibito' to prove Cloud/Tifa (or any other Tifa pairing, to be fair) is doing some major selective reading and wishful thinking. Remember--that argument only works if you take the statement out of context *AND* you have to ignore that this same document describes Tifa as 'a sort of mother to big-kid Cloud', AND that Tifa behaves 'much like any other woman that has been left behind by a man'.

Not to mention loads of other things that describe Cloud and Tifa's relationship to each other as 'not romantic', to put it lightly.

So after "koibito" sneaking its way everywhere, this will finally be its One True Thread, eh? :lol:

My interpretation:

Square-Enix and its publishers were never a holy bastion of the Queen's English to begin with. So all this effort of breaking down and analysing every single word, comma and grammatical structure of this one, tiny passage (that barely reaches five sentences and qualifies more as a blurb than a passage)?

It's fun on one level, but it's also missing the forest for the stumpy little trees.

The whole blurb is about the "dimensions of her character". Tifa is a composite of the characteristics of The Lover, The Ally and The Mother. To me that simply means she has some qualities of a Lover-- kindness, even a degree of femininity (as opposed to "masculine" concepts of strength, war, battle), perhaps also a certain expectation (of Cloud) because you want your beloved to be all that they can be, and not just what they are now-- some of an Ally and some of a Mother.

(Don't forget that she is a video game character. A character that is created by a writer will have to be GIVEN traits, at least as a starting point from which that character will grow. She isn't a human being who lives in our world, and who would thus be more complicated than a few personality traits.)

So it doesn't concern me whether "like" is only applicable to "mother", and not to "ally" and "sweetheart". Perhaps one feels that is how the sentence would, grammatically, be broken down to-- but you don't know if that was the writer's original intent. And it doesn't concern me that "koibito" is a noun, not when the sentence preceeding it already tells us that we are talking about Tifa's personality.

Here's the question: If she can be interpreted as Cloud's girlfriend, does that make it true?

The argument goes something like this (and I've seen it being used to justify Aerith being the one KH1 Cloud was searching for):

1. The interpretation that Tifa is Cloud's girlfriend is a possibility.
2. SE wrote Tifa's character with that idea in mind, alongside the image of her as a motherly figure and a dependant ally.
3. That image was included in Tifa's portrayal in AC, a canon source of information.
4. Thus, even though it is still called an "interpretation", it is true that Tifa is Cloud's girlfriend because it is acknowledged in AC.

I've seen it asserted that there can be many interpretations, but only one truth (i.e. "You're free to think that Tifa is thought of as a romantic interest, but the truth is that 'koibito' means 'lover' and Tifa is being presented as Cloud's lover."). Yet SE themselves said that 10 people can see the same scene in AC differently, and all of them would be correct. So perhaps the concept of "one truth" is too boxed-in, too archaic at this point? Perhaps there are no truths, only interpretations.

If "truth" is relative and what is perceived to be correct depends on the person viewing it (+ sufficient textual evidence), then a Cloti who interprets "lover" as meaning "Cloud's lover" and a Cleris who interprets "lover" as "romantic interest" could both be equally correct.

Though we all know this is not a literary experiment, but just SE's way of jumping around plotholes and questions.



I had the rest typed out, but this post is becoming a mess so I'll end it here for now (if I keep editing this post, I'll totally miss lunch! :lol: ).

As far as I know, 'koibito' prefers to one of Tifa's many characteristics. Her personality shows she's like a sweetheart, like a mother and like an ally.

Tifa is a sweetheart, her personality still show her feminity and outlook; the major thing is how one phrase was interpretted and eventually blown out of context.

She can be Cloud's sweetheart (romantic implication), but only if you interpret it that way, she can be a lover in general (she's a sweetheart to everyone).

Frankly, there's no One Absolute Truth until SE spills it and that won't happen anytime soon (if ever).

See, even if CloTis would assume that this koibito in RF is taken as sweetheart in a romantic way, the logic between this line and Cloud and Tifa's relationship would be unbalanced. If you're going to review Cloud and Tifa's relationship, which I would personally say they have a strong maternal one, taking it as romantic would be very poor. If you try to compare Tifa's to Aerith's, I, a pure-blooded Cleris would say so that Aerith is first one Cloud's heart. Why so? Compare all the scenes Aerith and Cloud has, and Tifa and Cloud ones. It would make sense to fellow Clerises. So can this kind of Cloud and Tifa's relationship be even considered as romantic, and would it even fit that Tifa is Cloud's sweetheart?

Koibito=sweetheart, girlfriend. That's the real thing you'll ever get in a Japanese dictionary. There are also in times that koibito may mean like sweetheart, but it's usage is different, i.e. suitor, or for a clear one, the one who is in love---a lover, so that's why it may not be a word you may frequently hear on Japan.

But it cannot just mean girlfriend like what others would like to rub in. First, koibito in Japan is taken in many different ways, it depends on how a sentence is constructed. If another name was mentioned, let's take it for Cloud, it would definitely mean as Cloud's sweetheart. If not, then it would only be like an adjective to the subject. And on text, there wasn't a name written on the passage other than Tifa's, saying that Tifa is like a mother, a sweetheart and a close ally in battle. So, what was the passage all about if it is not on romantic connotations with Cloud? No other name was mentioned.

It will always seem to other people that the initial thought they would assume about the koibito/sweetheart is that Tifa is Cloud's sweetheart. But it's just an interpretation, because Cloud's name did not exist, but yet, it really just depends on how you will look at the passage. To me, this text was to describe what Tifa is like to everyone in FFVII: a mother, a sweetheart and an ally. And she is a mother, to Marlene, Denzel and even Cloud (stated by SE on RF), a sweetheart to everyone, and ally to AVALANCHE and Cloud.

Square would never end up the LTD like that. This is one thing I am sure of. Nomura had already mentioned that everything was answered by Advent Children---the movie itself. So, what is the purpose of Reunion Files? RF is just something to support the movie. You cannot understand the whole story of AC by only reading this book. If they would close the LTD by a tiny passage of an optional merchandise, I'm sorry to say, but Square-Enix would be just cheap to let something significant loose by a printed media.


EDIT:

I was wondering, maybe you could explain it to me more and expand the idea? I'm a bit confused and weak on words... :sweat:

My main points against koi bito?

a. Nomura was talking about Tifa's character here, not roles. Tifa is like a mother, like a sweetheart, and like an ally in battle. Anyone with the slightest comprehension of the English language should be able to understand that the "like" carries to all of the items in a series when it is placed at the beginning. Honestly, I can't believe I have to explain this, but, apparently, some members of the fandom are so desperate that they have to make up shit. Therefore, please allow me to give you definitions of the term "character":

"the aggregate of features and traits that form the individual nature of some person or thing"

"the combination of qualities or features that distinguishes one person, group, or thing from another"

"one of the attributes or features that make up and distinguish an individual"

None of these definitions for "character" mention roles... period. Tifa is "like a mother, a sweetheart, and a close ally in battle" in that she embodies traits that one might find in a mother, a sweetheart, or a close ally in battle. These qualities are what distinguish Tifa from other characters and are the dimensions that Nomura wished to portray when creating AC Tifa. Nomura was making a general statement about Tifa's character (that is, her qualities). If someone is making this statement out to be more than that, then they are ignoring the words of Nomura himself.

b. Cloud wasn't mentioned in this statement. There is no way in hell that Cloud is associated with this statement. No mention. No pictures. Nothing. Nada. Again, I am amazed that I have to point out something so obvious. In the entire page that this quote was printed on and even the page facing it... no pictures at all of Cloud. Again, if someone tries to associate this statement with Cloud, they are twisting facts into something more suited for their purposes. They are grasping at straws, plain and simple.

c. If Nomura didn't solve the love triangle in [I]AC, he sure as hell isn't going to do it in two sentences in a book.[/I] Last time I looked, Nomura was quite careful about the portrayal of Cloud's relationships with Aerith and Tifa in AC. There was no definite answer, only subtle clues. Why go through all of the trouble to depict a subtle picture of Cloud's emotions only to publish a book and, in two sentences, solve the love triangle? He is not going to give a definite answer to the love triangle... ever (even if I wish he would just so I could be proven right).

From as far back as the release of Kingdom Hearts:

Q: "Okay then, so the person Cloud is searching for is Aeris, right?"

Nomura: "Well, what do you think? If indeed it was Aeris, then the bit in the ending was the answer. You might say it was made so you can take it that way. Cloud is a popular character, and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this. Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought."

Nomura stated that interpreting Aeris as the one Cloud was searching for was a correct interpretation, but then backtracked and stated that he wanted to leave room for other interpretations because he didn't wish to decide anything for Cloud due to other fans' "strong conclusions" [in regards to the love triangle]. Nomura is a smart man... and a good businessman. He isn't going to solve the LT simply because he would anger a large portion of the fandom either way. He would lose money when that angry half (*cough*CloTis*cough*) stopped buying FF products. Nomura has discovered that it is far more profitable to drop little hints to support ClAeris and little scraps for CloTis to twist. Keeping everyone arguing just keeps us all begging for more, doesn't it? However, the answers are there if you look. It isn't really "open to interpretation" at all. The creators have provided subtle clues, but no direct answers.

From Newtype USA (Oct. 2005):

Open Ending: To this day, FFVII continues to draw some fire for its ambiguous ending. It's a satisfying conclusion [and beautiful to behold], but it doesn't hold the player's hand through a lengthy denouement the way 16-bit Final Fantasy games do. That shift in presentation, Tetsuya Nomura insists, was entirely intentional-- the goal was to make players think a little harder and pay closer attention to a more complex storyline. "I don't know if you could really say that FFVII had any unanswered questions to speak of," claims Nomura, taking what some of his fans [or detractors] might characterize as a slightly controversial stand. "We just created FFVII with the idea that we wouldn't just come out and tell people the answers. The answers are there, but no one is there to tell you where to look for them. We didn't leave anything hanging." Nomura, of course, had the advantage of the original game's scriptwriter sitting across the office to point out where to look. But, on the bright side, if Square had pointed everything out, there might not have been enough demand for a sequel like Advent Children.

To work out all the movie's secrets, the hardest of the hardcore should plan on multiple viewings. Like the original game, "Advent Children follows suit in not revealing the answers directly," says a slightly cryptic Tetsuya Nomura. "Some parts you'll probably have to watch several times before you get it, but it should come eventually."

So, why do all of this to just go, "Oh, BTW, Tifa is Cloud's lover!" in one paragraph in a book??? 0_o That makes absolutely no sense. The answers are there if you look for them, but S-E is never going to give a direct, definite answer to the love triangle, as some CloTis are suggesting they have.

d. The only relationship confirmed between Cloud and Tifa is that of family and, actually, Tifa was confirmed to have a "maternal bond" with Cloud. That's right, Tifa is more like a mother to Cloud than a sweetheart. XD Actually, Nomura himself stated that Tifa has a maternal bond with Cloud, in a paragraph directly before the one where he described Tifa as being "like a mother, a sweetheart, and a close ally in battle". So, why would Nomura state that Tifa is like a mother to Cloud and then turn around and say that she is his sweetheart? Once again-- it doesn't make any sense (like most CloTi "evidence")!

The direct quote from Reunion Files:

"Tifa was a very difficult character to create. Like Aerith, she has a maternal side to her, but in a different sense. Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a 'big kid' himself in some respects. Yet despite this, she continues working as the manager of Seventh Heaven without a complaint." (Nomura)

So, Nomura states that both Tifa and Aerith have maternal sides to them, but that Tifa's maternal side is different. He then applies Tifa's maternal side directly to Cloud and states right there that Tifa has a maternal bond with Cloud. Why paint a picture of Tifa as a mother to Marlene, Denzel, and Cloud, and then turn around and say that she is his lover? That is a sickening idea! Are you CloTis pedophiles, or what? XD Honestly, Cloud acts like a rebellious teenager all throughout Case of Tifa and AC, running off on his motorcycle, staying gone all the time, clamming up and not speaking with Tifa, hiding things from Tifa, etc... Tifa, on the other hand, acts like a concerned parent, worrying about Cloud and scolding him on several occasions. A few examples of this...

From Case of Tifa:

(During a conversation with Tifa) ... Cloud made a familiar face, like a child who knew a scolding was inevitable...

Cloud gazed at Tifa with the expression of a child whose worst secret had just been let out of the bag...

...He's like a child, Tifa thought. While it made her sad that Cloud could see another world she knew nothing about, the idea his world was expanding at all was a welcome one. Yes... Maybe this is kind of what a mother feels like. Once she saw Cloud off, Tifa was alone with the new emotions growing inside her and was happy.

If Tifa is happy with her new role as a mother figure to Cloud, I have a hard time understanding why CloTis force her into a romance that she seems to have given up on. While Tifa may or may not harbor romantic feelings for Cloud by the time AC rolls around, she has clearly accepted the fact that she has no future with Cloud as anything other than a friend who is like family.

From Reunion Files:

"Although there's a lot to Tifa's character, she's actually very much like any other woman who's been left behind by a man. The director, Nomura, said he wanted to make sure she wasn't a clingy woman, but to portray her as though she's been hurt emotionally in a way that others around her cannot easily detect. But Tifa has expressed her feelings plainly to Cloud a number of times." (Nojima)

Ouch! XD This statement pretty much screams rejection. Tifa was left behind by Cloud? She has expressed her feelings to Cloud many times? And yet he still shows no signs of reciprocation? Wow, no wonder she decided that maternal feelings were better than romantic ones. XD I also find it amusing that Nomura specifically stated that he didn't want to portray Tifa as clingy. That statement, in and of itself, proves that Tifa's affections are one-sided. Women don't have to cling to men who reciprocate their feelings. If Nomura wanted to make sure that Tifa didn't seem clingy in AC, he must have considered her actions to be that of a clingy woman at some point and decided that he didn't wish for her to seem pathetic in this movie. However, he still wished to portray her as someone who had been hurt emotionally. So, logically, a CloTi romance is pretty far-fetched at this point, yes?

From the Dirge of Cerberus strategy guide:

"After helping Cloud set up his delivery service, Tifa got involved with the displaced youth of Midgar and opened an orphanage. She keeps in close contact with Cloud and Barret and remains the steadying force she always way- or at least tried to be. Although she has a small role in this game, she remains as likable as ever and continues to show the traits that always made her such a great friend."

Gee, what happened to "sweetheart"? XD And what happened to it being just Cloud and Tifa? I thought you CloTis had written Barret out of the picture? Sorry, but Barret is a part of the family whether you guys like it or not.

Also, from the DoC game booklet:

Tifa Lockhart, Cloud's childhood friend and a master of martial arts.

Aerith Gainsborough, a girl with the blood of the Ancients running through her veins, who Cloud would never forget.

Hmmm... Tifa is Cloud's friend and Aerith is someone who he will never forget. The bit about Cloud never forgetting Aerith sure seems more romantic to me than Tifa being Cloud's friend. I am happy with that.

Also, I guess the main point that I tried to get across on my page in regards to the definition of koi bito versus koibito is that koi bito (written in kanji, as it is in RF) means lover only in the sense of "a person who loves" (kind of like "a cat lover"). Koibito, which is typically written in kanas, is the one which can have various meanings such as GF/BF and lover (in an intimate and/or romantic sense). At least that is what I heard from Resha, Saicho, Kenji, and Shadow Spirit.

Inuyatta pretty much summed up my opinion of "koibito". While I'm pretty sure that the definition of the word in any dictionary is "lover", it's always context that matters. Unless there's a name attached (Tifa is _______'s koibito or _______'s koibito Tifa.), it's simply describing her character traits and how she behaves.

It should also be noted that Nomura's only focus in that passage was Tifa, therefore, it pretty much sums up her traits in general to all those around her. I don't think he had any intention of making any connections from each of her traits to anyone in particular. While Clotis will automatically jump to the idea that koibito binds Cloud and Tifa, I don't see why she couldn't also be connected to Barret in that manner. Since we're talking about character traits/behaviors, well, she refers to Barret's daughter as her own. In that sense, I can easily see her behaving like that of a koibito towards Barret. Context and character traits...that's all. :P

Inuyatta and HD pretty much said it for me. It's context. I'm not debating the meaning of the word - as it does mean lover/girlfriend. However, unless the speaker is calling the person his lover or a name is mentioned, it's not official. Point blank, it's one sided - the page is talking about Tifa and Tifa only, not her relationship with any specific characters.

Firstly, I want to apologize for my long post in the C/T Promise Thread regarding the word 'koibito'. I guess I went so deep into it--totally directed the topic into the wrong direction. ^^; Sorry!

Like Zelda, I don't debate -at all- about the meaning of the word. I just simply believe this whole thing with 'koibito' has been taken too seriously.

I agree with S-E about describing Tifa as a 'koibito' fo sho. Her character manifests qualities of a mother, lover/sweetheart and an ally. It's clear to me. Personally I think it's a lovely way to portray a character with many dimensions--it's simply said. Hasn't it been evident enough that Tifa has feelings of a lover, aside from a maternal figure and ally as well, especially since RF said she had expressed her feelings for Cloud a number of times? There shouldn't be any reason to NOT describe her like that, even if it's only one-sided love. ~quotes Inuyatta from here!~

I don't think it really affects the LTD, or should--it only annoys fans. It's just been in debates because C/T fans pop it up most of the time, I'd think.

~hates this lame post of hers~

Don't hate your post. ;D

I kinda feel bad for the Cloud/Tifa camp sometimes--they pull up the Koibito argument, but can't really defend it well, can they?

No problem, Resha. That part of my post was pure, random thoughts; so it's quite a mess (not to mention it strays from the original topic :lol: ).

I was trying to tease out a new idea from Hyper-Ballad's post, but on another reading I think I may have misunderstood it. :sad:

My initial thoughts (more long-winded blabbing, skip to the end if you're not interested XD):

I thought she was saying that SE incorporated many different views of Tifa's character while writing her role in AC. But that creates a problem: how would SE deal with the Cloti view ("Tifa is Cloud's girlfriend") and Cleris view ("Tifa is not Cloud's girlfriend")? How do you put together two interpretations that conflict with one another? Which one is the "correct" one?

I then made the suggestion you quoted: that all interpretations are equally valid, and that there is no one true version (that includes there being no one "true" pairing in AC). This would be in line with SE saying that 10 different people can view a scene differently, but all 10 views would be correct. That can only happen if there isn't a single, solid "truth" to compare those 10 interpretations with. (Of course, the requirement is that you have textual evidence to back up your interpretation; otherwise you're just making stuff up.)

For example, the significance of the angel statue in AC was never stated. So we have many different ideas about who/what that statue is supposed to represent: hope, Aerith, children, innocence, guardian angel etc. Because we were never told the "correct" meaning of the statue, all those different interpretations are equally correct (even if the Aerith interpretation conflicts with the children interpretation).

Compare this to the LTD. If we are never told who the "correct" woman is, then all different interpretations of who Cloud loves are correct. Person A can think Cloud loves Tifa, Person B can think Cloud loves Aerith-- and according to this idea, both would be correct.

We are so used to there being an "absolute truth", but perhaps what is true for one person isn't necessarily the case for another. It all depends on whose point-of-view you're looking through.

...I guess you could sum the above up by saying SE left it open-ended. :P But I'm not talking about some "agree-to-disagree", "you have your views and I have mine" thing. I'm saying there's a possibility that two people can believe Cloud loved different women and both would be equally correct (or "canon").


However, I've re-read HB's post. Now I think what she actually meant was that the blurb talks about all the different ways Tifa can be seen by fans (but it doesn't mean all those views were included in her AC character).

I'll have to dig out the original blurb to refresh my memory, but I always thought SE was talking about Tifa-in-AC, and not Tifa-as-seen-by-the-fans.

I reckon those who do use it like some magic, debate-ending word don't even try to defend it. They just dismiss doubters as being in denial. :rolleyes:

But I think the "tide" is against Cleris in the koibito argument, because of the extent to which the word has been used in popular culture. When you try to make your point, you'll look as if you're desperate to protect your pairing by questioning the "obvious" usage of koibito. It's an uphill battle, breaking down ideas firmly implanted from years of fan-Japanese, anime/manga and J-dramas.

A possiblity, yes, it could be after all, AxCxT is canon. But I guess I'm still pining for Nomura's statement about AC, saying that everything was answered. But then it could be also a possibility that the answer to Cloud's love interest is that it just depends on how fans would look at it. If a fan thinks it is Aerith, it is canon. If a fan favors Tifa, it is still canon. On the other way, it could also be just one of Aerith and Tifa. Dear, I honestly don't like the idea at all, no matter how much it could be true. XD

That is, if you're not debating with Japanese inhabitants.

I.....I seriously want to support this thread by posting something, but ain't see anything left from all your great posts(*sweat by shame).

Several things I can add on are from my observation through Japanese LTD/fan websites: I didn't find anyone discussing this koibito stuff in their forums(maybe I didn't search harder). For me, RF's explanation in Tifa's characteristic is for everyone who buys the book; if this one-liner stuff is about to explain Cloud's love interest, poeple who'd never played FF7 before would be annoyed(b'cuz it should be explained much more clearer), not to mention all Clotis/Cleris fans. I also find it interesting that Clotis ever claimed that "I've consulted my Japanese teacher or my Japanese friends about the meaning of koibito, and they prove it right! " Like what you've said above, giving the definition of koibito does not make CXT sucessful. Do their Japanese friends played FF7 or read the RF themslves? if they do, then I'll have no questions here....
Btw, if this word simply means Tifa's a sweatheart/possible grilfriend to EVERY characters in FF7, this is a also supportive thread for BarreTis or VinTis right? why did they ignore that?:whistle:

......hope my poor post makes some sense here :blush: (*shamely run away)

Well, let's be a bit realistic, shall we? XD Even though it may also mean for every character of FFVII, the closest one we will get is Cloud.

Ahaha~ I know, Resha! just make another joke on Clotis, cuz if I were a fan of BarreTi or VinTi who explains this word like what Clotis do, I might have a major supportive thread too! :lol:

I get the feeling that if they asked their Japanese teachers--they probably did not show the whole passage either. They probably just asked 'does koibito mean lover?'.

Lynn:

Hmmm...but according to Nomura, the game wasn't open-ended. He stated that nothing had been left hanging and that if fans only looked deeper, they would find the answers. If one were to go along with these words, how would the LT still be unaswered or "left open" in AC?

Come to that, I don't think Nomura ever said AC would be open-ended either or that all interpretations would be correct...just that people could interpret it however they want to. IMO...just because he's saying people can interpret the game and AC however they want, it doesn't necessarily mean he's intending for all the various interpretations to be correct. Sounds to me like there's only one answer, one that SE isn't going to openly reveal due to the fact that Cloud is such "a popular character".

Personally...I don't really think I'm going against koibito and it's usage in popular culture. I wouldn't question anything at all if Nomura had attached a name with Tifa and koibito. My only concern here is context. As it's been mentioned in another thread, Clotis have always been extremely good at taking things out of context.

To avoid being accused of that, I've actually cut out the Japanese portion of Tifa's blurb and sent the whole thing to my friends/teachers. To avoid even a hint of being accused of "contaminating" their opinion, I don't even send the English translation.

With all these precautions, I feel like I'm a CSI or something. :lol:

And according to previous SE interviews/publications, things are "open to interpretation". Looks like somebody fugged up communication in SE HQ.

I have a feeling that by "answers", they mean stuff like "Where/What is the Promised Land?" or "What happened to Sephiroth at the end?" or even "Will Aerith be resurrected?" But we won't know what exactly they meant by "answers". "No answer" is as much an answer, isn't it? :lol:

Speaking of that, I remember the interview said that we would learn about the relationship between Cloud, Tifa and Aerith. One could assume that he meant "You will learn whether Cloud loved Tifa or Aerith", but it could also mean "You will learn that a deep bond continues to exist between Cloud, Tifa and Aerith." :dunno:

Sounds like we both have interpreted his words differently, eh? :lol: *dodges rocks* Sorry, sorry!

Take an old piece of work, such as Shakespeare's The Tempest. He isn't alive to tell us what is the "correct" interpretation of that play. A lot of people believe Prospero is the embodiment of the ultimate Enlightened Man, but for all we know, Shakespeare could've had a very different idea. But it's still considered a valid interpretation.

So, very loosely (since I realise there are "rules" about what constitutes an interpretation), any interpretation of a text, as long as it is supported by the text, should be valid.

The reason we insist on what is "right" or "wrong" for FFVII, is because we all know SE is still here, and they can release information to clarify anything. So we're all focused on finding out what SE's idea is about the LTD (which we then take as the absolute truth). But if SE were no longer here, and we had no way of finding out the so-called "correct" view, then all we would have are our interpretations. So, in the end, does it even matter whether SE is here or not?

Going back to Nomura's words (assuming SE isn't chickening out of making a stance and really is approaching this as a literary experiment), I think he is using AC for this purpose. The "answers" are there (Aerith continues to exert some influence despite her death, Cloud hasn't forgotten her and isn't married, the group didn't return to Midgar but live on its outskirts, Rufus is alive! etc.).

Now, create your own ideas-- and your idea that the angel statue represents hope, and your idea that it's a tribute to Aerith, and your idea that it's about the children's innocense-- they are all correct.

Naw, I'm not referring to its meaning, but the (mutual) romantic connotation automatically attached to it, regardless of context. It's kinda like a word association exercise.

A: "Koibito."

B: "Romance!" *thinks* "No, happy romance!" :D

That was Resha's whole interview, after all. How ideas overshadow actual truth, and for that to happen, it's usually popularly accepted.

Did he actually say that things were left open to interpretation? I can't recall anymore. I thought what he'd said was that fans can interpret things however they want. It had sounded to me like he was saying he wasn't going to interfere with interpretations, especially when he follows that up with comments like: "I don't want to choose for Cloud because he's such a popular character".

You could be right...but he did say that they didn't leave anything hanging. Sounds like there is a definite answer for everything, whether it be that Cloud loves _____ or Cloud loves both girls. Doesn't seem to me like he's saying every interpretation is correct. Am I just imagining it, or is there a difference between the two? :lol:

We just created FFVII with the idea that we wouldn't just come out and tell people the answers. The answers are there, but no one is there to tell you where to look for them. We didn't leave anything hanging. - Nomura, Newtype USA October Issue, '05

Yeah, we don't know what Nomura was referring to...but I get the feeling he himself would know exactly what he was referring to. He's just not going to point it out to us. :P

I understand he's not saying much so that people can create their own ideas. I guess I just don't see where he's actually saying that these ideas are all correct.

Now that I thought about it, if Nomura did think of it like that, he would never make any sense. I don't like FFVII ending in that Cloud both loves Aerith and Tifa equally, because Cloud's way of interaction towards the two girls are totally different.

Doesn't make much sense to me either. I guess my question is, if Cloud loves both girls equally, what's stopping Cloud from getting with Tifa? I mean, after all...he can still make babies with one and keep the other in his heart. :P

If Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved, why do they even need to "adopt children" when they could be creating their own together, eh? Yeah, I'm getting tired of hearing the whole "but they're raising children together! It proves Cloti is canon!"

No, he didn't. He very clearly stated that there were no unanswered questions in FFVII. He also said that AC would be the same way.

From Newtype USA (Oct. 2005):

Open Ending: To this day, FFVII continues to draw some fire for its ambiguous ending. It's a satisfying conclusion [and beautiful to behold], but it doesn't hold the player's hand through a lengthy denouement the way 16-bit Final Fantasy games do. That shift in presentation, Tetsuya Nomura insists, was entirely intentional-- the goal was to make players think a little harder and pay closer attention to a more complex storyline. "I don't know if you could really say that FFVII had any unanswered questions to speak of," claims Nomura, taking what some of his fans [or detractors] might characterize as a slightly controversial stand. "We just created FFVII with the idea that we wouldn't just come out and tell people the answers. The answers are there, but no one is there to tell you where to look for them. We didn't leave anything hanging." Nomura, of course, had the advantage of the original game's scriptwriter sitting across the office to point out where to look. But, on the bright side, if Square had pointed everything out, there might not have been enough demand for a sequel like Advent Children.

To work out all the movie's secrets, the hardest of the hardcore should plan on multiple viewings. Like the original game, "Advent Children follows suit in not revealing the answers directly," says a slightly cryptic Tetsuya Nomura. "Some parts you'll probably have to watch several times before you get it, but it should come eventually."

Yep, that's right... (from an interview about KH):

Q: "Okay then, so the person Cloud is searching for is Aeris, right?"

Nomura: "Well, what do you think? If indeed it was Aeris, then the bit in the ending was the answer. You might say it was made so you can take it that way. Cloud is a popular character, and I don't really want to decide myself, yes he is like this. Because players make strong conclusions by themselves, I want to leave room for everyone's line of thought."

In other words, he didn't want to piss anyone off. :lmao: Nomura is an excellent businessman. The answers are there if you look deep enough. Subtle clues are placed there for that reason. But, to avoid upsetting any fans, Nomura has decided not to reveal the answers directly.

I'm going with the (perhaps idealistic) belief that for there to be any "interpretation" to begin with, it has to be based on something factual, correct, something definitely there. We all know that there are completely rational Clotis out there, and so one wonders how they came to the interpretation that Cloud loved/loves Tifa. I don't think they pulled something out of nothing.

But I admit, Nomura and the translations of his interviews could just be using that word flippantly and I'm reading too much into it. With that caveat in place, on we go:

Yes, it was said. Perhaps not by Nomura himself, I can't recall. But it's been a running theme throughout several SE/AC publications. It's only in a few interviews that we started getting the "oh, FFVII DOES have answers! Really!" stance.

The concept that something looks different to different people isn't new. So I don't see why it's so hard to believe AC had the same technique applied to it.

Though I believe FFVII had some concrete ideas. AC was the one that SE kept saying is possible to view differently, because people had developed very strong ideas on FFVII on their own. Which leads to the next point:

Do his reasons really matter, if the end result is that, yes, the movie is flexible enough to be interpreted differently?

It just doesn't make sense; if SE allows for "any interpretation" to be "possible", how are those views then not correct in their own right?

Or he wants to keep us interested in his product, because more of the Compilation was unfolding at that point. The suspense of "the truth" being found, somehow somewhere, is probably more tantalising than the depressing possibility that there are no truths, and debates about FFVII will go on forever.

Maybe it's just how each of us reads into it. :dunno:

...so we kind of drifted away from the koibito thread, didn't we? Heck, I'm finding our current discussion here more interesting than the topic of koibito anyway. ^^

...I guess I see them as neither correct nor incorrect. Interpretations are simply... what we each think. I guess this whole "interpretations" thing is making us all go around and around in the same spot. If SE didn't leave anything hanging, the game couldn't have been left-open-ended. That's all I'm trying to get at, I supose. So if the game isn't open-ended, there must be a set of correct answers.

The only article I've ever seen touch on that issue was the one FFG provided, and that one actually debunks the theory that the game had been left open-ended. Honestly, I don't think saying "Interpret that however you like" in reference to the LT to avoid speaking about it is actually saying that the LT had been left open-ended.

Certainly, it's flexible enough to be interpreted differently, but I don't see how that's saying the game was open-ended with no actual correct truth. We're all allowed to have interpretations, yes, but that's only because SE isn't going to tell us things that only they know of. Doesn't mean SE doesn't have a set of truths, at least, that's what I'm getting from what they stated up above.

:lmao: I just keep waiting for HB to come here, see how we've abused her thread and kill us. Publicly and violently.

I can't give you any specifics since I don't have them on my laptop, but it came up in the early set of publications during or immediately after AC's release. I'm thinking Prologue, which was something of a booklet about AC's production (including interviews with the big guys), but I could be wrong. I just know it exists, partly because when the interview FFG posted came out, some people were like, "Yes! SE's finally gotten past that 'open to interpretation' crap!"

I guess if you see "interpret that however you like" as saying any extreme view can be included, I can fathom your incredulity. Somehow, the interpretation that "Cloud loved Aerith as an extension of his obsession with Sephiroth" just doesn't hold water for me.

However, if I only consider "interpretations" as views that have taken into account facts from FFVII, I can't honestly say those interpretations are wrong. If it comes from the same source and is based off the same facts, then the only difference between my and your interpretations are our point-of-views. For example, you don't believe young Cloud had a crush on Tifa but I do. We are both basing our ideas off the same characters, scenes etc., yet somehow come to conflicting conclusions anyway. Who is SE to say whether you're wrong or I'm wrong, when we are only forming our views based on what's presented before us?

To any possible "SE is the creator, they have the final say!" response: IMHO, there comes a point in time when a certain work/text/etc. escapes the author's hands and becomes a public/fan property. That's why SE tiptoes so much around the Compilation. They can't say "to hell with the fans" and do whatever they want-- FFVII, over the years, has grown into something that the fans also "own" (fans of Zack are almost responsible for CC's existance) and their views count. The only "claim" SE has is simply that they have the money to produce games. But in terms of ideas and views, I feel SE and their writers have been relegated almost to fan level-- or the fans have been upgraded to Nomura's level.

...And I drift off into more babble. :ow:

SE probably has their own view of FFVII. If they don't, it's gonna be hellish to coordinate between the writers, designers etc. For the sake of creating a coherent game, they definitely have to have a common base to work from.

However, two points:

- If SE has a view, and writes the game based on that view, and a fan uses that same collection of events to create their own interpretation; what makes SE better than the fan?

- If SE is basing their view on secretive little tidbits that no one knows but them, then how is that relevant? Shouldn't the final text be the one that ultimately matters? We've asserted that just because Tifa wasn't part of the original cast in FFVII doesn't mean it affects the LTD; neither does Cloud and Tifa being the original cast of the 20-minute short.

...I can't decide if you're talking about this little discussion, or the LTD in general. Maybe it's both? :lmao: But to use myself as an example, I'm gonna lose steam on this discussion eventually, mostly because there's only a certain number of ways to argue a point before we reach a "agree to disagree" stage.

So that's why the idea of an "absolute truth" (as provided by SE) is so wonderful. It's a target to aim for, a definite point of end we all strive to reach, no matter how many times we have to analyse that stupid Highwind scene. And I think that's why Nomura has to insist there are answers, because without that belief, everyone would post once about a topic and rarely return-- and FFVII's longevity is definitely due to the ongoing discussion it generates.

I love having discussions with you, Lynn. You're so brilliant and enlightening (though I'm absolutely sure I didn't need to tell you that)! :huggle:

Awww...get her in here. Being the brilliant girl that she is too, I'm pretty sure she would give us both a big hug and immediately jump in on this interesting/odd little discussion. :giggle:

Hmms...okay. I'll see if I can look into it or something. I was one of the ones excited when the article FFG provided above came out, but I always thought the whole 'left open to interpretation' idea was from fan-theory. I didn't know SE had previously stated that they'd left the game open-ended.

Ah, well, it's pretty clear we both see the word interpretation differently. That's most likely why we're riding the merry-go-round with this discussion. :giggle:

:battlecry:

Actually, Hades' Daughter knows me too well - I'm loving where the discussion is going! You two are making such interesting points! I'd love to join in, but I'm a bit busy right now (will definitely add my thoughts later, though). This is a great discussion!

So no worries - I don't mind that we've drifted away from the koibito issue. What you're talking about now is much more interesting and besides, we can always change the subject later if someone has more to say about the original topic.

So hugs for all, as HD anticipated! :huggle:

And now I'll just sit back and watch this very interesting show. :snack:

My take on it has been very close to what Inuyatta said here. If the word isn't specifically saying that she is a sweetheart to anyone in particular, then it shouldn't be taken literally and context should be taken into consideration.

Besides, the term "sweetheart" in English has other meanings than just "girlfriend" or "lover". It can also mean a well-liked individual, a very attractive or seductive looking woman, a generous and friendly person, or a person who arouses loyal affection. See the definition of "sweetheart" at Dictionary.com Is that the kind of meaning you're talking about when the word isn't taken literally, Inuyatta?

Also - where was the bolded part stated, Inuyatta? :unsure:

Another point that everyone seems to ignore is that AC!Tifa is based on FFVII!Tifa. Tifa was a "sweetheart" in FFVII, although not specifically to Cloud. Cloud as well as other boys in Nibelheim had big crushes on Tifa when they were children. (I've never thought that Cloud was the only boy in Nibelheim with a crush on her!) One of the boys wrote letters to Tifa after he left Nibelheim, and Johnny obviously has a thing for her, too. People like Zangan, Barret, Biggs, Wedge, Aerith, and Marlene also expressed a great deal of affection and caring for Tifa, although their affection wasn't romantic in nature. FFVII characters in general care about Tifa and are fond of her. In that sense, Tifa has always been portrayed as a "sweetheart" in that many people are fond of her and care about her, although not necessarily as a "girlfriend". Tifa has always been everyone's "sweetheart", not just Cloud's. Since the character of AC!Tifa is based on FFVII!Tifa, then this may be all Nomura meant. :dunno:

I was reading Anastar's link on dictionary.com I realized something. The kanji (or Chinese characters) for the Japanese phrase is ˆ¤�l"Love person. " (directly translated). However, I asked my mom about that and she said it is a dictionary definition and she said in China people use "like" for saying they love someone. They never use "Love". She also said in Asia, people use indirect ways to say you love someone. She said Nomura is talking about Tifa's role.

FYI: I speak Chinese so if anyone needs some kanji translated, PM me.

The one for 'boyfriend or girlfriend' or possibly the 'endearment for a beloved person', Angelwing Aeris? They both use different characters, Chinese or Japanese.

I also backed up on what Angelwing Aeris said, people generally use 'like' when describing emotions, it's usually how it was use in context, verbal or written. I do hear some 'love', but again, context (could be either joking or someone's trying a different way or confession).

Well, context definitely matters, and Ms. Kimiko definitely said that the way the line was presented, it was not meant to be literal, as there was no name to link to it in that sentence--and it was referring overall to how Tifa behaves and is perceived.

It was also in the Reunion Files, if I'm not mistaken. Sorry, I'm horrible at recalling specific pages. I believe it was in the same section where they describe trying to avoid making Tifa seem clingy. There was also some mention about Tifa making her feelings known on several occasions.

Make of that what you will. ;D

Page 20. Or the third page in Tifa's section. *Has ze book*

SANKYUU, CG! >3

But yes, as I said--they can harp on Koibito all they want, as it does typically mean 'boyfriend/girlfriend' these days--but without a name to link it to in the sentence, no dice. It doesn't help their cause that so much in the compilation, in addition to the original game, says their relationship has finally aspired to platonic and has remained that way even after Advent Children.

As most of you know, I am getting part of the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania professionally translated. I will actually be shipping it to Japan soon to allow my translator to begin. I asked him about koibito in an email and sent him a scan of the quote. His conclusion?

:whistle: Which is what I've been saying all along....

However, he went on to say that Nomura's wording was very vague and said that it would be difficult to prove that he was speaking only of traits and not of roles. So, what do we have? Captain Vagueness Nomura, once again. <_<

Hiroyuki then went on to say that asserting that koibito cannot be used to describe someone and can only mean that Tifa is in a romantic relationship is "nonsense" (his exact word).

In other words, Tifa acts/behaves/shows qualities of a girlfriend/sweetheart/lover. But, is she implied to be someone's specific GF/sweetheart/lover? Not according to Hiroyuki. :shifty:

Sounds like Hiroyuki-san had a hard time looking at that sentence too--Kimiko-san also looked at that sentence and struggled to comprehend why it wasn't being used correctly.

Yeah, Hiroyuki said that it was very vague. :no: But, his final conclusion was that it was indeed a description of Tifa's traits, which is what we've all been insisting upon, so that was a WINNZORZ for me. :lol:

Honestly, just because Tifa acts like a girlfriend or has traits of a girlfriend doesn't mean she is one. All you have to do is look at the rest of her profile to find your answer.

1. She has a maternal bond with "big kid" Cloud.

2. She is "like any other woman left behind by a man".

3. She has been hurt emotionally in the past.

4. She has made her feelings clear many times, but Cloud still turns away from her.

Make up your own conclusions based on clear statements like these, not some vague sh*t, where you base all of your proof on one word. That is just pathetic. :yawn:

(*off-topic)

I'm a Chinese too! :huggle: I know Kanji too but somehow, many usages of kanji in Japanese are so different to Chinese meanings(i just want to make this clear:3)

(*super off-topic)
FFG:

you do??? :hyper: THANK U SOOO MUCH!!!(sorry I'm hell slow.. :blush: ) Then...then do you think I should keep translating UB? :hmm: (I'm no pro translator, you know)

You definitely should, Aerithlove! We're all super grateful for your translations, so as long as its convenient for you, I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd love to see you keep going.