Something I've seen a lot of recently: Why did Sephiroth wait until Cloud arrived at the altar before killing Aeris?

I originally put this little rant in the thread "Speculation: Role Reversal" (I've also quoted Anastar from that thread), but then I thought that I ought to start a new topic on it, as it's an issue I've seen crop up here on this board quite a few times (and I've seen members here cme up with a LOT of interesting ideas/theories, too), so why not give it its own thread?

I think I've seen other members state in different threads that he deliberately waited, and wondered why that is. But I don't think that was the case; he needed Aeris dead before she could bond the White Materia to mankind and summon Holy. So the sooner she dies, the better. When he appears in Cloud's dream, the threat is obvious: he's going to kill her as soon as he finds her. But in my opinion he needs Cloud to find her. Sephiroth knows she's planning to stop him (and knowing that she's a Cetra, she's able to do this) but not being a true Ancient, he can't follow the call of the Planet like she does, and doesn't know how to find her. So he invades Cloud's mind (Cloud being so vulnerable to his will) and listens in on Cloud's dream, in which Aeris tells Cloud where she's going, and how to get there. So through Cloud, Sephiroth finds out where Aeris is because Cloud can't shut him out of his mind, and isn't aware of to what degree he's being used. So Sephiroth pursues Aeris, and finds the city, but he still is unable to find her. Remember the fish at the ruin she's in? It stops you from getting past, and I'm betting it stopped Sephiroth from getting past as well. What he did between arriving and the time Cloud and the gang arrive, I don't know. He might've spent his time attempting to find another way to gain entrance or (I think this is more likely) he could have guessed that Cloud was the key to finding Aeris (after all, she revealed where she was an told Cloud how to get there just to reassure him that she was alright) and decided to wait until Cloud arrived, expecting him to show him the way. Then in the middle of the night, Cloud hears Aeris' voice calling him and finds that the way through the ruin isn't blocked anymore. And through invading Cloud's mind, Sephiroth could easily have discovered this information and followed. But because he needs to kill Aeris as soon as possible, he doesn't wait for the chance to do it himself but instead tries to make Cloud, who is at the shrine first, do it. Cloud fights it and resists, and a few moments later Sephiroth arrives and kills Aeris instantly, not knowing that he's already too late.

So that's my theory anyway; that Sephiroth didn't choose to wait, but was behind Cloud and followed him into the sacred ruin and killed Aeris the first chance he got. Waiting seems rather uncharcteristic of him to me - even if he did want to torment Cloud, I don't think he'd put personal amusement above his goal. Aeris was a threat to that goal, and I think he'd eliminate her as soon as possible.

I've always wondered about the relationship between Cloud and Sephiroth; while Sephiroth is so deatched to all emotion in his insanity, and focuses on nothing except his ultimate goal, for someone so cold he takes a lot of pleasure in making Cloud miserable. That sadistic delight always seemed to be at odds with his coldness. With everyone else he victimises he shows nothing; no compassion or mercy but no visible glee either. It's just killing, adding more souls to the Lifestream, souls that will become a part of him and add to his strength. There's no personal element to it (I'm particularly thinking about his interaction with Tseng in the Temple of the Ancients). It's only Cloud that he enjoys making suffer, and I've often wondered why.

It's possible that he does it because he's connected to Cloud (from the Nibelheim incident and through Jenova cells) and this made Cloud stand out to him, a special target. I've always believed that before going insane, Sephiroth must have had a hard and painful life, and learning the "truth" about himself made him suffer so much his mind couldn't endure it. Then, he became vulnerable to Jenova's will - but I don't believe he was being puppeted by her, like many say; if anything the roles seem reversed because Sephiroth always appeared in control of his manifestations, the Jenova pieces, etc. And also you fight the final form of Jenova before Sephiroth, HE'S the final boss, not the "true evil of the game". I think this is a part of why he desired godhood - as God, he would be the highest entity and in control, and so, free of manipulation from Shinra, Jenova, or anything else. Anyway, to get to the point, he's suffered a great deal throughout his life, and so perhaps this is why is likes to inflict suffering on Cloud, a target he was connected with and could manipulate. Perhaps a way of releasing anger at the world? Or enjoying the sight of someone else in pain and anguish?

I do think revenge is a very likely motive, but after five years absorbing the consciousness of the Lifestream, and the knowledge of the Ancients without actually dying, his mind (already insane and past normal human emotions) has gone beyond what it was, which is how he forms his ultimate ambition. So I think he'd be above the need for revenge. After all, he doesn't even remember Cloud when he first sees him again, doesn't he? I hardly think it's been burning in him all these years. But then again, after seeing Cloud and remembering him, it could've sparked something. Cloud was the only one to come close to defeating him, to proving Sephiroth's mortality. For someone aspiring for godhood, that's a pretty big chip to have on your shoulder.

So while I don't think that Sephiroth's timing when killing Aeris was deliberate, or that he waited, I do think his callous words towards Cloud, and the need to gloat over Aeris' death springs from somewhere.

Must think more on the topic of motive... -_-

But that's exactly why we're asking why Sephiroth waited until she'd bonded the White Materia to Mankind and summoned Holy. If it's that great a threat to him, why should he wait?

Okay... that's another explanation of why Sephiroth waited. But where is there any evidence to indicate it? When Cloud woke up in the middle of the night knowing that Aerith was there, Cloud said that Sephiroth was there, too. So Sephiroth had apparently already found Aerith. Why would Sephiroth wait for Cloud's party to come down that crystal stairway before killing her if it was important to eliminate her asap? Why make Cloud kill her when Sephiroth could easily do it himself? The most likely reason I see is revenge.

If Sephy can go through the Sleeping Forest without the Lunar Harp, I don't think the goldfish would stop him. If you remember, though, the goldfish disappears once Cloud's party goes to sleep for the night. So it was apparently Aerith who "got rid" of the goldfish as she passed down into the lower chamber where she summoned Holy.

That's exactly why we're wondering why he waited. However, it wasn't difficult for Sephiroth to block Holy even after she'd summoned it, which means that it wasn't really all that necessary to eliminate her as soon as possible. Yet the question remains, why wait?

First of all, it was Cloud who defeated Sephiroth in the Mt. Nibel reactor - a young boy with no Jenova cells in him defeated the Great Sephiroth. That was humiliating to Sephiroth, and something he'd want revenge for. In the second place, Cloud is the anti-thesis of Sephiroth. Rufus said that in Junon:

(The door to the room slides open with a hiss and President Rufus walks in.)
Rufus "I thought Cloud would show up to save you all..."
"Professor Hojo wanted to check up on Cloud, too."
Tifa "What are you going to do to Cloud?"
Rufus "Sephiroth's alter ego..."

I've always thought that's why Hojo considered Cloud to be a failed experiment. Hojo was trying to duplicate Sephiroth. Instead, Hojo produced Sephiroth's alter ego.

Your theory is interesting... but where's the evidence to support it?

Well, I am pretty much with Aly.
According to the dream sequence where Aerith appeared to Cloud, telling him she's going to "take care of things", we see that Sephiroth had gone for Aerith far earlier before Cloud could wake up and get there physically.
Thus Sephiroth must have been at the Forgotten City, long before Cloud arrived.
He had wanted to torment Cloud, to make him kill his own love. But when Cloud's will proved to be stronger, Sephy decided to do the job himself ^_^ as simple as that.

i've been thinking about that and i still cant come up with a reason why sephiroth killed aeris :angry: :(

Here's my thoughts:

Sephy is evil and insane. He needed to stop Aeris from calling Holy, so the better way to shut her up is by killing her. But she's not with the gang, so she's probably at the Lost City. When he gets there so does Cloud, well, he likes to play with his little puppet, so why not torment Cloud a bit more?(remember when he made Cloud punch Aeris?) So he possesses Cloud and tries to make him kill her, but Cloud is stronger. Well, Sephy gets pissed and does the job himself.

I think that's it. -_-

Have you noticed that Cloud is only able to fight Sephiroth's will when he has to do it for the sake of Aerith? Cloud is unable to fight Sephiroth's will at every other point in the game, except for in the Death Scene. Even when Sephiroth made Cloud give him the black materia, Tifa and Barret (or Red XIII) yell at Cloud to stop, just like they do when Cloud starts to swing at Aerith - but their voices didn't reach Cloud. The only point in the game where Cloud's able to fight against Sephiroth's will is when he has to do it for Aerith. :rolleyes:

...But that's exactly what I'm arguing - that he didn't wait. He killed her as soon as he was physically able. But this is just a theory to support the facts. It's based on my interrpretation of the facts - there's no way of proving or disproving it, what matters is whether or not you buy into it. :D

I think I can address both these points together...what I'm saying is that yes, Sephiroth was there and had found Aeris, but his problem is that he can't advance, he can't get any sort of access to her where he can kill her. As for why he can't go any further, I think it's because the Planet is protecting her. The fish could be representive of a much more powerful force, a force that's blocking everyone from entering the shrine. My opinion on the fish's disappearence is pretty much as you put it; that Aeris (in the final stages of bonding the White Materia to humankind) herself removed it to let Cloud pass by. Cloud passes by and is near Aeris, which is why Sephiroth (who is following) takes advantage of Cloud's closeness to Aeris by trying to make Cloud kill her.

But again, I think this was more of a response to a threat than malice (he's insane, cold-hearted, and so lacking the emotional involvement to be deliberately malicious). After the Temple of the Ancients is destroyed, Seph makes threats and gloats evilly, and Aeris challenges him:

Aeris: "I won't let you do it! The future is not only yours!"
Sephiroth: "Ha, ha, ha... I wonder?"

Aeris is a Cetra, so Sephiroth is perfectly aware that she isn't just all hot air; she is actually capable of stopping his plans. He knows that she can seriously screw things up. She has to be stopped before she can act on her potential, or better yet, before she even realises it. After he controls Cloud and makes Cloud give him the Black Materia, he then makes Cloud turn against Aeris in an attempt to stop her. He makes Cloud beat her in an attempt to stop her - it seems pretty clear to me that Cloud was so overwhelmed by Sephiroth's influence and couldn't stop himself, that if another member of your party hadn't been there, he might've killed her (which I think was exactly what Sephiroth intended to happen).

As sweet as I find this idea, I'm not sure I buy it. Despite his insanity, Sephiroth is an extemely pragmatic character - I don't see why he would risk everything, all his plans, just for the sake of a little twisted pleasure. And another thing is that I'm not sure that Sephiroth would consider Aeris' death something that would cause Cloud any sort of of real pain. Remember that after Aeris' death he tells Cloud: "Ha, ha, ha...... Stop acting as if you were sad. There's no need to act as though you're angry either." Considering his view on Cloud, I don't think that Sephiroth believes that Cloud is capable of love, or of feeling any real sadness at any kind of loss. Perhaps that's even the reason that he torments Cloud so much - to try and break him, shatter his (supposed) "illusion" of humanity, and getting him to stop pretending that he feels anything at all... :rolleyes:

Ooh...now that's interesting...I'll think more on that one! ^_^

Yeah, I noticed that! :D It's funny how even when the fate of the Planet hangs in the balance, Cloud can't fight Sephiroth's will, even when his friends are calling out to him...but he can for Aeris. :wub:

Okay... but there must be some evidence on which you're basing this theory? There's no way of proving or disproving my theory either, but there's evidence to support it.

But why would Sephiroth be unable to approach Aerith without Cloud being there? In the first place, Sephiroth isn't there physically. Physically, he's in the Northern Crater. It's unknown exactly what form Sephiroth is in - whether he's a spirit, whether he's a mental projection from Sephiroth in the Northern Crater, whether he's an apparition of Jenova, or whether he's a Jenova clone - but one thing is certain: Sephiroth is not there physically.

Sephiroth is able to enter Cloud's dreams (the Sleeping Forest), he's able to fly, he's able to pass through solid objects (the Junon boat), he's able to block Holy, he's able to block Aerith's spirit from returning to the Planet, and he's able to go through the Sleeping Forest without the Lunar Harp. Given all that, why wouldn't he be able to follow Aerith without Cloud?

Is Sephiroth really so worried about what Aerith can do when he is able to block Holy? Was he afraid of what she could do, or was he just being malicious? It's obvious that he's out to "torture" Cloud, in a sense. He forces Cloud to give him the black materia (twice), he has Cloud beat up Aerith, he tries to make Cloud kill Aerith, he lies to Cloud about Cloud never growing up in Nibelheim, he lies to Cloud about never being at the Nibelheim incident, and he toys with Cloud by summoning him to the Northern Crater. Forcing Cloud to kill the woman he loves goes hand-in-hand with everything else Sephiroth did to Cloud.

But again, I have to ask - was Aerith really that big a threat if Sephiroth can block Holy and prevent her spirit from returning to the Planet?

Can Sephiroth's words be trusted when he also told Cloud that he had never been born in Nibelheim, that he was nothing but a failed experiment of Hojo's constructed after the Nibelheim event, and that Cloud never existed before the Nibelheim event?

In fact, you asked earlier why Sephiroth acted like he didn't recognize Cloud on the boat from Junon. That was because Sephiroth wanted Cloud to think that he had been constructed by Hojo after the Nibelheim incident. According to what Sephiroth told Cloud before the Reunion, Cloud was supposedly constructed by Hojo piece by piece after the Nibelheim incident. If that were true, then Sephiroth wouldn't recognize him. ;)

It's also very possible that Sephiroth and/or Jenova were actually at the root of Cloud's twisted memories of what happened during the Nibelheim incident. Cloud left Nibelheim in order to become a SOLDIER like the Great Sephiroth. Cloud wanted to be recognized for doing something great, and he wanted to be famous. So why would Cloud forget defeating the Great Sephiroth in the Mt. Nibel reactor, for which Cloud was a hero? Why would Cloud remember being Zack during the Nibelheim event, when it was Zack who lost to Sephiroth in the Mt. Nibel reactor? Cloud was the actual hero of the Mt. Nibel incident - not Zack. Why would a young man who wanted to be famous remember being the one who lost? Perhaps it was because Sephiroth didn't want Cloud to remember. Wouldn't it make Cloud easier to manipulate if Cloud had forgotten that he had defeated Sephiroth? :unsure:

Something to add to Aly's post..if Sephy is as pragmatic as you said, he would have done the killing himself, why even bother to control Cloud and will him to do the killing? Won't killing Aerith by himself as faster, and more efficient way?

I hadn't thought of that, STA... that's another very good point. :rolleyes:

Just a quick post to clear something up...

I'll refer to an earlier statement of mine that anticipated this sort of question ( ;) ) :

...I have to go now, but I'll get back to your post soon, Anastar! ^_^

Aerith could be capable of doing something that Sephiroth isn't capable of doing no matter what he does, so he probably must've waited for her to do whatever he is trying to do... and then he kills her once he gets whatever he wants out of her. :unsure:

I think the only real logical conclusion to why Sephiroth waited was to do with Cloud. But not simply for revenge.

Sephiroth has manipulated Cloud throughout the story. When he hands over the black materia to him at the temple of the ancients and starts hitting Aeris it is obvious his mental defences have diminished considerablly.

Watching her death would have been so trumatic that Sephiroth could manipulate Cloud so much more easily... and he succedds in doing so.

Because it would've been much less tragic if the player just walked up and FOUND Aeris dead, rather than seeing her die

I think Sefiroth waited cloud before killing aeris, because he wanted to make cloud suffer.

before that, he made cloud hit aeris in the temple of the ancient, in my opinion, because the knew cloud cared a lot for the girl..


and then, we wanted to kill aeris but im sure he said to himself " hm...let the puppet do the job".

So he manipulated cloud, but cloud is strong enought to refuse, so he kill aeris himself....remember the way sefirot looks at the camera whe he is killing her? he is looking at cloud, like he is saying: see this...and suffer..


so, if tifa was the love of cloud, why sefiroth did not try to hurt her in front of cloud to make him sufer? why we made cloud hurt aeris and wanted to make him kill her??
because he knew hurting aeris...would do cloud to be sad....

What?! I don't remember that!! Did cloud ever punch aeris??? O__O

Good point, Daga15 - but the thing is : Tifa isn't an ancient. Tifa doesn't have the Holy materia or whatever powers to pray and save the planet. Tifa isn't a threat - at all - to Sephy's plans.
But Aeris is, which is why Sephy had to kill her, and not Tifa.
If Tifa's and Aeris's roles were reversed - Tifa was the Cetra and etc and Aeris was just some girl working in a pub, i'm pretty sure the one that died would've been Tifa and not Aeris.
But that's not how the game goes. <_<

But yes, I'm pretty certain Sephy did know how important Aeris was to cloud, which was probably why he made cloud kill her...he probably wanted cloud to suffer - I wonder how he knew aeris was important though? Was it because she appeared in cloud's dream? Or maybe he never thought of it - he just knew she was a friend and cloud would probably be devastated to see a friend die???
hrrm...gaaah I wish I could read sephy's mind!!! >___<

Ummm...he did more than just punch her. In fact, he was trying to kill her. :sad:

Oh god yeah, I remember that bit. It was right after the temple of the ancients had shrunk and Cloud gave the Black Materia for Sephiroth. He suddenly went nuts and started to attack Aeris. I was OMFG CLOUD!!! DON'T YOU HIT THE WOMEN YOU LOVE OR I'LL COME OVER THERE AND KICK YOU BLONDE SPIKY ASS!!!!

What makes you think he even wanted to kill her,remember,originaly he was
a nice guy,but became corrupt with lust for revenge.

So it could be he was not aware of his actions.


Another possibilty,I guess this could go along with other reasons,it could be because he just found that killing was sexy.


If you get rid of the last reason,and aplly mine,this is just my opinion,he
was sort of a tragic hero,anaware pf how sweet and innocent she is.

In fact,thats why some poeple like me here make him a changed man in their fanfics.


But this is just my opinion,It could be that he was aware,and loved it.



Future Sephiroth:If you read Sephiroths mind Yin-chan,you would be reading my mind,and I don't really feel confortable like that,makes me nervous,and I already had a mental break down from killing Aerith and watching he choke in her own blood.

There wasn't an him being a nice guy. At the best we've seen him, he was still rather cold and emmotionall distant. As for revenge, that's not what drove him. He flipped out when he found out the reason he was so different was that he was a experiment and an alien.

As for why he waited, it probably wasn't anything personal. He's military. he knows his tactics. Right now, Aeris is a threat to him and Cloud and his gang are a threat to him, however minor.

If Cloud and the rest had just walked up and found Aeris dead, it would have lacked the trauma and demoralizeation of watcher her killed. His first idea was to control Cloud and take care of her that way. That would have left her dead, and shown Cloud that there was nothing that he could do to stop Sephiroth from controlling him anytime he wanted. Since that idea didn't work, the next best thing was to take her out before Cloud had time to recover his wits on the situation.

From there, the battle with jenova was started since the team would in no way be at their best mentally for it. had he fought them himself, that would have given the party extra incentive to win the battle.

It's nothing personal. Just buisness.

Umm... You're not Sephiroth nor Cloud. :unsure: