God for the life of me I can't remember if I've posted this before. If so feel free to delete.

You know, I just realized that I watched a lot of tv shows and read lots of books in which the main heroine falls for the angsty, dangerous, mysterious hot boy. At first, the guy usually treats her pretty badly, or poses a physical threat to her. But the heroine won't relent - she's too in love. By the end of the story, the heroine wins over the hero. He's still a dangerous and possessive jerk, but at least he wouldn't hurt the heroine because he loves her so very much. Kinda like in Stephenie Meyer's Twilight.

I'm not sure why I enjoy couples like this. I mean, it annoys me to no end mainly because it's so cliched and overused, and yet I still watch it. Maybe it's because of that turn around moment where the guy suddenly can't stand to be apart from the heroine who has been taking his crap throughout the entire story. Like in k-dramas like Goong and Full House. Or hell, Beauty and the Beast.

I guess it's all right if you accept stories like these for what they are - fantasies. The danger comes from when people actually see relationships like these as one they'd like to imitate in real life.

"Gosh I wish I had someone who was obsessed with me, who was over protective and controlling, who was extremely dangerous but promised never to hurt me because he wuved me so much, who treated me like an infant and steam rollered over all of my thoughts and opinions unless they coincided with his. Oh ya, and who's hot. He's gotta be hot."

Again, for me (and I know I'll be yelled at by lots of fangirls) Stephenie Meyer's main relationship in her book Twilight pretty much exemplified this, but then so did the K-drama Goong, which I could only enjoy if I turned a blind eye to how this ridiculously emotionally (and sometimes physically) abusive relationship was being painted as romantic. Usually, the hero's hotness is presented as a 'get out of jail free card' for all of his other less likeable personality traits. In fact, those personality traits themselves are portrayed as being a good thing. For example, Edward in Twilight is over protective, controlling and dominating because he loves Bella so much that he worries about her. And so what if he's dangerous? Bad boys are hot.

Look, I love bad boys in fiction, but those type of guys in real life are NOT good for women. Most women who enter relationships like that in real life end up in a lot of hot water, like brave shooting survivor Carolyn Thomas.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/3469041.html

Interestingly enough, while watching her on Oprah, when she described what she found so appealing about the boyfriend who would inevitably shoot off her face and kill her mother, I couldn't help but notice: his descriptions matched those of so many bad boy heroes - those that are lusted after and fangirled after and rabidly defended when anyone insults them. Just in case you didn't read the article through, let me post up one line that I think exemplifies this:

I've seen relationships with controlling, dangerous yet really hot and mysterious guys in anime and manga, movies, tv shows, books k-dramas etc. Each time these are portrayed as being hot alpha-male qualities that every girl should look for, especially since even though he's a jerk, he'll never hurt the girl he loves because at the end of the day he's just a softy and really just needs a hug. You know, it's okay to like something like that so long as you understand it's a fantasy. FANTASY. This isn't real love, this shouldn't be seen as real love, nor should it be imitated in real life for those searching for real love.

But that's what worries me.

Do people truly understand the difference between fantasy and reality? Sadly, from what I've read on message boards of fans of some of the series that I've mentioned, it seems like a lot of young women don't. Carolyn Thomas sure didn't - but I guess she knows now. All it cost was her face and her mother.

For the most part, no. Now, I don't want to offend ANY girl (or guy for that matter) on here, so I am going based on the majority of girls I know offline.

Most people seem to go for the "hard man who'll knock someone out with one punch." This is...horrible, in my opinion. I don't know if this has come from fantasies thanks to TV shows or videogames or something else entirely, it just does not sound healthy. If someone is like that, as you have pointed out, it could easily lead to a violent relationship. Why girls would rather go for someone who is agressive over someone who cares for them deeply and is rather sweet is beyond me. The same goes for why soft guys would go for tough girls (though that is more uncommon).

As for actually watching/reading these types of couples, I hate it too. I'd much rather a couple had emotions for each other and not just the feelings of having benefits for being in a relationship (such as a girl feeling the guy could protect her -- that's it). If two people fall for each other, that's sweet, I'll love that story. If a girl lusts over a guy who plays by no one's rules apart from his own, bleck.

However, there's nothing wrong with liking that type of story as long as you acknowledge, like you do, that they're not real. If it all works out in the end in the story and they do live happily, that's great! But in real life it isn't always so simple.

Well at my age, seventeen, I find it safe to say that girls like to be treated like trash. Which is probably why ive never had a real girlfriend. Well I mean, one that lives near me. I was even talking to a girl in my school one day who had a boyfriend living somewhere else.

"To be honest, yes, a lot of girls DO like to be treated like shit. Thats why I think your alone. Your not a jerk."

Indeed, I learned a lot from my mothers various boyfriends growing up, namely how not to treat a girl.

But yes, I hate those kind of relationships too. And I mean, I really hate them. Thats why I dont watch much television or anime, its so full of that shit.

Great topic, nyrin! ^_^

I very much disagree with this. I'm sorry, but I think this statement is far too simple and generalised. No-one who doesn't have serious masochistic tendencies or is deeply insecure would ever like to be treated like trash. And someone who likes to be treated badly needs help - from a friend, a counsellor, anyone.

After all, when I was seventeen I could barely handle being ignored and I was the "quiet and sweet one". If I remember correctly, all my friends who were in relationships back then were all quite demanding of their boyfriends, had the usual fights and making-up, had fun, but wouldn't put up with anything they really objected to (ie: contact with an ex-girlfriend - ohhhhhh this was the most overblown drama imaginable back then! :lol:).

Yes, bad boys are a pretty mainstream fantasy. I think it's something to do with expressing your own dark side through a fictional characters (he does reckless/evil/dangerous/misguided-but-harmful things but is attractive and desirable), imagining you're "collaborating" or doing something "forbidden", and that generally someone sees to the heart of you and relates and you're able to see who they truly are too and accept them. It's liberation combined with sex and the idea of belonging and emotional intimacy. Generally, it's an extension of the "you and me against the world" fantasy, only if you're rebelling against good/accepted/normal/moral behaviour it's all the more thrilling. Danger in general is a thrill, and the idea of being safe in the arms of your unpredictable maniac who hates all the world except you is something worth sighing over in the bathtub.

As fantasies, the bad-boy/good-girl dynamic can get a bit too squicky for me too. My worst guilty pleasure is Paranormal Romance novels (never read Twilight, but I have heard of it) and I'm getting more and more irritated with how the male/female dynamic goes lately. Men are way too rough and forceful and the women are much too weepy, vulnerable and passive (or overtly tough and independant, but still just a lost little girl inside...). The women in these books are almost on the same level as children - they have to be constantly cossetted, tended to, cared for, protected and treated like princesses (and they usually end up being princesses with a sacred vampire destiny...ugh <_<), otherwise the man/hero/surrogate-parent/ego-feeder's troooooo luv isn't demonstrated clearly or strongly enough.

Digression aside, I'd say that dark romances or the ideal of a dangerous-yet-loving man is a pretty harmless fantasy, and as we grow up, we come to accept it as that. It's escapism, and there's nothing wrong with liking couples like this. I like to think of it as sampling what you're looking for without any of the downsides that would come with an unhealthy relationship, so that it satisfies you and hopefully keeps you from going looking for that sort of thing outside of fiction. We've all been there, we've all had crushes/infatuations with people we would probably despise if we lived next-door to them.

But like a lot of other fantasies it's only harmless when it stays a fantasy (also see: fantasising about being raped, Catholic schoolgirl fantasies, dominatrix fantasies, etc - it's okay as long as it stays inside the bedroom between two consenting adults who are aware that's it's all make-believe). It's okay to imagine, so long as you understand that IRL, that kind of relationship would never work put and that there aren't healthy men out there whose every waking thought is about you. So long as you can draw the line between reality and fantasy, it's no-one's business what kind of fiction you indulge in, or what turns you on. When you cross the line, and sadly a lot of people find themselves doing this, it can lead to leaving yourself open to emotional abuse. It's terribly sad when people believe that this is what real love in the real world is like.

The problem with it as a fantasy is that most real-life bad boys aren't misundertood poetic geniuses with incredible drive and ambition and tortured souls stemming from tragic pasts. In my experience, most of them are just self-involved, infantile, aggressive, uncaring, petty little jerks. A guy acting like an asshole in front of me doesn't make me all gooey inside, it makes me angry and keen to leave his company. A guy makes me laugh and shows himself to be generally friendly, and I'll want to see him again.

I indulge in dark, sometimes even perverted romances now and then, but I'm fully aware that it's just fictional entertainment. It doesn't have any bearing on what I look for in a guy, and I've certainly never been attracted to anyone who would treat me with disrespect. I like guys who are kind, funny, like things I can relate to, and who treats me like a worthy human being. Most of the bad-boys I've known don't have a very high opinion of women. And another thing - they are never fun or thrilling to be around. In my experience, it's either been painfully boring ("Watch me and my friends get drunk and/or high! Have you ever been so excited in all your life???") or downright scary ("I've got a mallet and I am going to SERIOUSLY KILL SOMEONE with it! I'm pissed and completely out of my mind! You can't trust me not to flip out and hurt you!"). It's basically something I don't think anyone needs in their life, and does them no good except to (hopefully) teach them a valuable lesson.

It is sad when someone comes from a bad home situation. And yeah, it's probably responsible for their emotional problems and how they relate negatively to you. But that's no reason to settle for a relationship that is fundamentally unhealthy or based on pity/manipulation. You can't think you can change or fix someone. That is a therapist's job. And you can't be your partner's therapist anymore than a therapist can be a patient's lover. It's immoral and destroys objectivity. There are other ways to help a damaged individual, but when your health or emotional wellbeing is at risk, you should think of yourself first. So a relationship based on changing someone is misguided, and I'd say that the odds are stacked against them.

I'm not going to be as negative as the guys. Most ladies I know have either never been in an emotionally abusive relationship, or got smart quickly either by themselves or with some help from true friends, so I'll remain optimistic. Most people CAN tell the difference between reality and fantasy. Most women do indulge in dark romances but are with perfectly agreeable and considerate guys. Most of them know either through experience or instinctively that the tough, aggressive guy is only compelling and beautiful from a distance. We can all be a bit unpleasant up-close or can't live up to other people's images of us, and tough guys are no exception.

In my experience, no woman who doesn't have a victim-mentality (likely from previous abuse) would not go for a guy who is full of the milk of human goodness. If they overlook a "good" guy for a "bad" one, there's usually a good reason for it. Maybe the good guy is too shy? If he can't talk to a girl or tell her how he feels, then how is she supposed to see his better qualities?

Hmm...on the flip-side there are "nice guys" too (you know, the ones who whine about how they're sooooo good to you and such great friends and you're always breaking their hearts by choosing other guys other them, but really they just want to get into your pants?) They can be just as manipulative and trapping as their opposites and get as much of a good press (nice guys finish last... *sob*). Heartless Bitches gives a fabulous summary of what I mean (much better than mine), if you're still unsure of what I mean.

Um, but back to the topic. On both sides, good or bad, male or female, there's potential for emotional abuse, manipulation and taking advantage of another person's fantasies or naivete. It's very sad when anyone lets the fantasy dictate how they choose relationships in real life ("oooh that violent and emotionally unavailable guy is sooooo hot and I bet he's all soft and kind once I get to know him...", "oooh, I should go out with this shy guy who's never spoken more than two words to me in all the time we've known each other but who apparently is soooo in love with me...").

It happens that people can't tell the difference between reality and fantasy, and can't judge what is good for a relationship. I don't know if it's on the rise or not. I except so, with the internet making it more possible for manipulative people to take advantage of the vulnerable, idealistic or inexperienced. But the internet also gives these individuals more access to people who have their wits about them, and can hopefully be of some help identifying an unhealthy relationship and encouraging them to take steps to finding their way out of it. :huggle:

But I'll still stay optimistic. After all, it's the unlucky ones who slip through and aren't helped who get our attention. A healthy and happy relationship never makes the evening news. And I think we're in a world where people are growing up to think that things aren't as simple as fiction, and that as good as escapism is, it's only escapism because it doesn't reflect the real world.

I never said I treat girls like trash. Im simply making a factual statement that girls my age, at least where I live, only go for the most asshole guys imaginable... course im an asshole myself, but more like a charming asshole like Han Solo. B)

Considering escapism, I used to be that way, with an actual imagination. Though you eventually realize that theres no escaping reality, which sucks most of the time. Except when your watching Transformers.

I never said you did. :blink: And I never meant to imply that you did either. I just said that no-one (not just girls) without some severe emotional problem/trauma actually likes to be treated badly rather than wish things could be different. People do fall into bad situations, get drawn into unhappy relationships, and make the same mistake over and over, but that's for a deeper reason than simply liking being emotionally degraded.

Well, I can't really judge because I don't know the girls or their boyfriends. But surely every girl in your class/age-group isn't going out with someone? If there are any single girls in your area, maybe it's not because they can't get the asshole, but because they don't want him...?

Again, this is just speculation 'cause I don't know any of the people involved. :lol:

Well, when you're younger (14, 15) I think you need alternate realities and escape from approaching adulthood, stress, and responsibility much much more. I know I used to live quite an active existence in my head once upon a time. Fantasy is what helps you deal. But it does fade as you get older, I think because you're more used to and less intimidated by the adult world.

I never gave up on fantasy or thought that there was "no escaping reality" though. I still enjoy speculating about FFVII, writing fanfics and all that, but it's just pure pleasure now. It's not the be-all and end-all of life, and I don't wish I was there and wangst about how crappy my real-life is in comparison (like I did when I was 14...how embarassing!). It's not that imagination dies or that the fantasy means less, I think it's that as you get older, you're better equipped to cope with the world and your problems, and so real-life just starts to mean more. And it definitely has its perks. ^_^

From what ive seen, no. It seems that every girl I talk to ends up saying "Yeah, im with so and so at the moment." After a while I basically said "#*@$% this" and stopped looking around for a girlfriend. I honestly don't know what drives me to look for one, it almost seems like im happier alone.

But that just means that they're unavailable. It doesn't mean that they prefer jerks or like being treated badly. It's just bad timing that every girl you meet happens to be in a relationship.

But not all relationships last forever, and if a girl really likes you and her current relationship isn't serious (ie: they haven't been together for years, they aren't engaged, etc) then there's nothing stopping her from ending that relationship to be with you if that's what she wants. Everyone gets dumped at one time or another, it's a harsh rule of life. I'm not saying you should try to ask out women who are spoken for, I'm just saying that you shouldn't give up hope and that you could maybe gain a lot from examining your relationships with these girls (how much do you think they like you? do they know your feelings?).

But if that's a no-go there are loads of ways to meet new people these days. If you're driven to look for a girlfriend (and at your age, I'm not surprised that you are), then there are a lot of opportunities to find one outside of your local area. These sorts of relationships usually take more work, but if it is a relationship you're interested in, then what's the problem? What's holding you back from looking elsewhere? ^_^

Bremic, perhaps you could go in another thread for this? This thread is slowly going off-topic.

Anyway! I definitely agree with being fed up on the Bad Boy + Good Girl cliche pairings, and I think the media portraying this as a 'cool' thing is why there are misguided people out there who think this works. I find the Bad Boy and Good Girl pairings to be a very Mary Sue and Gary Stu thing, which annoys me to no ends. Seriously, I could make another topic on how much I hate Mary Sues/Gary Stus.

I think having a Bad Boy and Good Girl can still work as a pairing, however, IF done the correct way, meaning not the stupid cliche way. I suppose it's another one of those "opposites attract" things. I agree with Hyper though, that liking this kind of pairing is fine, as long as you're aware that it's fantasy. If not, you're probably a very annoying person who goes on all day 'OHHH, EDWARD IS MY DREAM GUY. I HOPE I CAN MEET A MAN LIKE THAT. WILL YOU BE MY EDWARD???'. Btw, if anyone reading is offended by this, because THIS is you, step away from the keyboard, and slap yourself. Several times.

Overall, I think Hyper said it best with her long-ass essay. :wub: You rawk! And have hella more patience than me, that's for sure.

(Oh gawd, a Rikku post with only ONE smilie?!!? WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO!?)

Thanks Rikku! I agree. ^_^ *frantically tries to get thread back on track*

When you're little, it's Prince Charming you're crazy for. When you're older, it's that dangerous and possessive Goth guy. It's not choosing a more realistic option as you grow up, it's just a change in fantasy material.

God, I hate the canon Mary-Sue. Every time I run into one a part of my soul dies... :cry:

I think, when it's a canon couple (like the two in Twilight, right?) it's because they're two characters set up to be perfect for each other. On the one hand you've usually got this smouldering anti-hero who plays by no-one's rules except his own and a depressed outcast girl who's so full of inner-beauty, intelligence and courage that OF COURSE she finds her way into his heart... <_<

It's basically wish-fulfillment. The author projects their insecurities and problems onto the main character and projects all their fantasies of being unconditionally loved, protected, desired, etc, onto the love interest.

The thing about dark romances is that they're usually quite epic so the love-story needs to be powerful too, which leads to writers going for overblown Mary Sues and Gary Stus. It usually has to be a true, destined love that the heroes would die for, blah blah blah. Other novels that happen to have a romance as part of story take themselves less seriously, so a set-up romance can still be charming and heartwarming.

DOITDOITDOIT!!! :woot: Seriously, there can never be too much hate/mockery of Mary Sues/Gary Stus in this world. I'd love to hear you rant more about this.

Yeah, I believe it can work when it's written well, and there are a lot of "dark" pairings out there (canon and fanon) that I really love. The dark/light dynamic is good, I like the idea of redemption, and I especially love it when those two positive aspects of the relationship don't drown out the creepy and twisted ones, and the genuine problem both characters would have making it work out.

I guess I could say is that I LOVE dark relationships as in "two people meet, they have all these reasons to stay away from each other but they can't, and now they have this quite twisted and painful scenario going on that just can't last forever". I don't like the idea as a relationship that actually stays intact, you know? What I love about dark romance is seeing it crash and burn. :shifty:

And again, I think that's because I like realism in my fantasy. And a relationship as messed-up and fundamentally wrong or doomed as most dark/light relationships are is something I can never see as having that perfect dream-come-true happy ending.

But the problem with it as a genre (if you could call it that...?) is that it's hard to write well, and very easy to write badly. *sigh*

I HAVE TO READ THAT BOOK NOW. :lmao:

Seriously, it's never appealed to me before, but now I need to read it and find out if it's as bad as Rikku says! *checks out Twilight thread*

(Um, and apologies to everyone who likes the book! No offense intended!) ^_^

Wow. I couldn't have said it better myself. That was just, awesome. Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes. I might as well just save everyone the time and trouble and summarize this post: "Yeah, what Hyper said."

The author projecting their insecurities and problems is just, exactly that. I can't stand self-insertion, which comes hand-in-hand with Mary Sues and Gary Stus. Self-insertion is just... I dunno, icky. I don't like it. Although, I suppose I've seen some annoying cases of it, and there probably is a correct way to self-insert without being annoying and having Mary Sue and Gary Stu characters.

RLY??? I am seriously tempted to. My posts are never usually giant, but Mary Sues and Gary Stus is a subject I do have a huge opinion on. (That opinion being it sucks, a lot, obviously)

:o!! Ebil!!

:pro:

Honestly, I've never read it, but what stops me from reading it is because I have dumb friends who have actually said quotes like that and made me want to smack them so freakin' bad.

Thank you! *blush* Um, but I'm sorry if you feel like I'm hogging all the points with my mega-long posts... (it's an addiction! :cry:)

That's the thing - you can't create a character without giving them bits and pieces of yourself. Every author does it. You have to be able to relate to your character someho, otherwise how can you get into their head and know what they're going to say or how they're going to act? So every author self-inserts a little bit.

But it's when you just use your characters to create a perfect universe for YOU that an author drifts into Mary-Sue territory. When a character is just a mouthpiece for the author's angst or their Perfect Partner fantasy, then it's not so much a character than it is a cypher. <_<

Really awkward and obvious self-insertion squicks me too. And again, when you're just correcting your own life through fiction, then how are the characters really characters?? :puke:

YA RLY!!!

Huge opinions are good! :lol: I so hope that you'll go for it. I can tell that you feel really strongly about Lila and Stu Mary and Gary, and that's what makes a post - no matter what its length is - fantastic to read. Because I agree that they suck, I'd love to read a massive rant about it. And then I'd be all "Yeah, what Rikku said". :wink:

And like I said, Mary Sues are still being created, so obviously there aren't enough anti-MS/GS rants out there. There's nowhere that wouldn't be better off with a rant about the godawfulness of Mary Sues. So in a way, the world needs you to write this... :devil:

Your kidding right? I wasn't exactly talking to myself. But whatever. I'll leave.

:blink:

What? Neither of us said you should leave. What you and I were talking about earlier is all well and good, but it was off-topic. Rikku pointed that out and I agreed with her, that's all. Neither of us intended it as a personal attack against you.

If you'd like to keep the off-topic conversation going, you could always start a new thread. ^_^