Please realize this isn't my theory and I don't fully agree with it. My older brother, Jefferson, believes in a sort of unpleasant form of cleris. He says that Cloud doesn't love the real Aerith but an idealized version. His reasoning? Jeff said the pre-Aerith's passing she was perky, funny, and pushy. BUT after her passing Cloud began picturing her as a serene goddess. Jeff says that her personality in Advent Children is a far cry from her "true self". He also believes that wasn't really Aerith and Zack but his mind forcing justification on himself. That Aerith's only interventions were when he was shot and the water. But the scene in the flower field and her in the church wasn't really "her" but a figment of his mind. He said that is why she acted like the goddess he loved rather than pushy funky woman she was in life. Someone please either shoot this down or give me some proof to understand Jeff's view.

First of all, your brother is weird. Second, the flower field scene and her in the church towards the end of the movie that's really her. Her consciousness is still there. It's with Cloud.

I really don't know where your brother's idea is coming from. Plus, I don't understand his way of thinking.

I'm sure other people will help you as well.

Hmm... That's like the Clotis saying that Aerith didn't love the real Cloud. It's just she saw Zack in him and love him for that reason.

Oh....I suddenly find it difficult to start because there are TOO MUCH clues, proof, ideas, hits that speak volumes about CXA's love.

Well, let me start with a very obvious proof:

*Cloud loves godness-like Aerith, and he does not love her when she's alive?

Cloud did not make clear about his feeling for Aerith when she's still alive. It's unquestionably that there's "something" between them in the game (I think you can find thousands of proof in this board) And if Cloud loves her simply because she acts like godness in AC, that would be very horrible for me. Cuz for Cloud, he ensures himself that he failed Aerith. If Jeff's opinion is true here, Cloud would be like a jerk to me----- falling in love with somebody after you indirectly killed her???? That is just too horrible! :sad:

Don't you even DARE insult my older brother. He's among the smartest people I know so don't even start on that! I was asking for opinions on his theory not him! :angry:

As to the rest, I don't agree with him but I respect him. He's a bit the pessimist at times so he would come up with this. ^_^ It's just I believed that Cloud did love the real Aerith but she changed a bit in AC. (I just think that was poor script) And I do think it was the real her through out.

What makes your brother believe Aerith wasn't really there? I'm afraid I don't understand how he's able to differentiate between her truly being there and her being a figment of Cloud's imagination. Either she was there or she wasn't.

If you ask me, most of the characters are slightly different in AC. Tifa is portrayed to be more motherly and outspoken. Some people even feel that Cloud is OOC. I don't think it's just Aerith. She may appear more like a goddess and less lively, but I think it's quite appropriate in her case...considering she's dead 'n all.

Well, I wouldn't normally go here (to respect my sister's privacy), but I'll make an exception.

|Before I start: This theory suggests Cloud does not love Tifa or Aerith more than the other (though I believe he loves Aerith more), but instead he loves an 'image' of Aerith he made after her death|

My theory is based on the relation of FFVII and FFX. The connection is noted in X-2 when Shin-Ra talks about being able to convert the life stream into energy, and when pyre flies seem to appear in advent children. If you're questioning why should X-2 count when it came so much later after VII and the connection was just for fans, then you have to ignore advent children as it was made later and for fans.

The connection is important because in FFX they make one point clear: two things can happen when you die: go to the far plane, or become a fiend. Even when you go to the far plane, you cannot see the dead, only images of what you want to see. I'm not saying FFVII has to follow this to a key, but it makes an interesting point.

|The idea Aerith remained separate from the lifestream without becoming something like a fiend is faulty. During her death her face was calm, serene. She remained so after each appearance. Remaining separate from the lifestream involves extreme emotional feelings, which she was obviously mostly at peace|

This is where my theory starts: The absurdity of Aerith reappearing after her death. Every time he saw her it was vague (behind him, in a bright light, etc). The FFX pyrefly idea supports Cloud being able to see an almost 'goddess' version of her. She acts less abruptly as she does in FFVII. She is calm, beautiful, and perfect. This is how he would see her, as he has some guilt about her death, and as the saying goes "absence makes the heart grow fonder". Meaning when you're without something you love, you're likely to exaggerate it's greatness.

This suggests he loves the real Aerith, more than Tifa (who he stills would have some feelings for). However, he is more in love with a fake Idol Aerith that is supported by visions from pyreflys. As far as the healing rain, I can't provide much reasoning. You could guess that the combination of the disease and the re arrival of Sephiroth (excuse me if I misspelled it) could have driven the planet into healing the people. The planet being able to do this based on 'The will of the planet' which is taken as just existing in the series. (This accepts the existence of a soul/spirit but they obviously have). Even if you think Aerith was separate from the planet her ability to do that would be ridiculous, only supported by her unity with the planet which would form her actions into the planets will again.

| I only post this to clean up the theory. It still says he loved the real Aerith, she loved him. She just wasn't his true love. I would think he still kinda loves Tifa, but to a much lesser degree|

I'll clean this up later. I'll try to answer any questions and help anyone understand my point. Feel free to debate, not insult.

I never saw any affection from Cloud but I am bias for two reasons: 1) When I played VII I was kinda a B-word to Tifa (you watched and would know. XD) 2) I'm a cleris so DUH! And remember I beat it, not you! :P But you did watch...and play it as far as you could before my bum discs acted up on you. (Was that Disc 3?)

But remember, in Final Fantasy X and X-2, when ever someone was shown with pyre flies they never spoke, moved, they were see throughish, and pyre flies can be seen. The only time you could see something pyre fly-esque in AC is when Cloud is standing in the rain.

Another planet!? The cetra were from Earth! You and I know that. Who says they're aliens!? Jenova was the space monster! RAWR!

-As you said, I saw you beat it. I reached far past any point of involvement by Aerith directly. You tell me your arguements and some from others on here. I'm learned.

Also, whenever you spoke to someone seeing these 'still images' they appeared still as they were cheaply animated NPCs. Also the NPCs dialog showed some talking to the spirits. Tidus might not have seen a talking one because it was explained they were fake. Also, Cloud's feelings of guilt are relatively high, this could assist an illusion. The voices could be an illusion supported partially by the viewer, maybe suggesting only the viewer can hear them.

When I said separate from the planet, I meant the life stream, not as in the earth.

Jeff, people talk to gravestones and pictures too! They were just attempting an emotional message to their loved ones! They weren't actually talking to them. (and j00 spelled dialogue wrong! :tard:) As for conversation, that would be a power of the pyer flies. Tidus would have no involvement. So Cloud's guilt wouldn't give the pyre flies super powers. Also no one saw Aerith aside from Cloud. I mean, Yuna saw Tidus' mother too! (No one else saw Aerith, save maybe that dumb little kid in the church.)

But what signs of Cloud having affection for Tifa did you see? :( I always saw her as the spectator. She was like on the outside looking in. Plus he creates an emotional bubble from her AC. (She may wear that ring but so does Barret so that doesn't mean anything)

Oh, I thought you meant space aliens.

Ok, spelling is not my strong point, agreed. Cloud's guilt doesn't assist them, it merely makes him more vulnerable. He could have made it up himself. I was suggesting that the illusion appears basic to others. No one saw her because (the flower field he was alone: at the door that could also easily just be metaphoric or delirious illusion.) In a way though I've made a counter-point by involving FFX. Aerith's death could be sacrificing herself as a "fayth" to a statue (her empty materia) in order to grant powers. In turn making Cloud a summoner accepted by her fayth. Summoning her for moral support. This is discredited by the last scene when she only appears to him (unless you accept that vision as an illusion)

I meant his vague love as more of a possibility. Had Aerith never come around, do you doubt he might go for her? That's all I meant by that. This vague forgotten 'crush' greatly overshadowed by a greater love for Aerith, and Aerith 2.0 (fake)

I know you said (face to face to me) the summoner thing is a parallel but I don't think Aerith was planning to die. When she opened her eyes when Cloud came up she looked like she was getting ready to stand up but that's when Seph (with his dissapearing gloves :whistle: ) fell and layed the smack down. And Cloud never got his mits on the Holy Materia. It fell in the water in The City of The Ancients. So her materia wasn't empty really just needed a deep prayer to the Cetra to activate. That's why she went to their city. To be close to them.

Um...no. I always thought he saw her as a friend but you gotta realize Jeff. When I played I had a consistently low amount of date points with her. (Tifa starts with 0 while Aerith starts with about 23 I believe) I spent very little time with her. I devoted most of my time to finding weapons, actually. So of course my view may be different. I don't remember how you did. I believe you got the Aerith date as well. But when I played, Cloud never seemed to express affection for Tifa. The only times were really actually optional.

I didn't intend it to be a insult. I call everyone weird. Even call my family weird.

Let me quote a long standing FAQ:

Link

This first: First off, what you did is not the final thing. You could have accidentally dated Yuffie on an off chance. I already said Aerith is a more obvious choice, but if you look at a game mechanics guide you start out with points for Tifa. Gaining points is much easier than Yuffie or Barret. Suggesting that he had no dating intention with her suggests he hates Yuffie to some degree. Though understandable, this is never mentioned as fact in the game.

Well, here's more parallel! Materia is a stone of knowledge that grants powers. In FFX the statues (or more often a large sphere on the ground) were filled with spirit's ability's to assist people. If the materia simply needed a prayer (like a summoner to a fayth) to activate (using the underground mr.fish area as the temple). This suggests she summons the spirit of it, it listens to her prayer selectively as they do in FFX. This makes her a summoner in a way (not directly) As such her death is used to stop a great summoned evil. In FFX the was Yevon inside of Sin summoning something great, possibly meteor? Her spirit is used to stop it in some degree. In FFX the use of a spirit to end evil exspent it. Settleing it so that future deaths would fuel future defeats of Sin. Ultimately a group didn't use summons and defeated Sin before resurrection. Sephiroth has two attempted resurrects. First one used a summon ability which didn't finish it. The second cloud finished it off alone. We assume Seph-face wont return.

Again, my whole aguement centers on the relation between FFX/X-2 and FFVII. Ignoring this relation as fan-service should also lead you to ignoring Advent Children as Fan-service.

Hrmms...well, what's the chance of there being a relationship between FFX/X-2 and FFVII? The two final fantasies are separate stories....aren't they? I'm not sure if the theory can work considering that it's based off concepts from a completely different game.

I think the back to back scene shows Cloud's guilt more than anything...not necessarily that he's only imagining her. As for bright light, well, she is dead...but it doesn't mean she couldn't have really been there in spirit form.

Let's take a look at Final Fantasy VII's theme: life. Nomura has clarified that it's not about memories (or in your theory, an Aerith Cloud has conjured up based on memories). He was clear that Aerith's consciousness continues to exist. There's only one meaning with that I would think, that although not everyone can see her (some only sensed her) she really was there with them, intervening and helping her friends, which, really is the message behind the game's theme.

I'm concentrating on advent children. Though FFVII's theme is life, they don't mention advent children's in any reputable way.

The only things I have seen saying this could be interpreted as her will being carried on. If you could give me a good source (link, bibliography), that would help.

My explanations for her not being able to be there is based on the games connections. You can look back at my previous posts for more on that.

...how does that automatically tie concepts from the two different games together though? Pyre flies may be used to represent the dead in both...but it doesn't necessarily mean the same concepts from X-2 is being used in AC. For example, a similar shooting star scene from FF8 between Rinoa and Squall may seem to appear in FFVII, but just because Rinoa and Squall were meant for each other, it doesn't necessarily mean the concept applies towards Tifa and Cloud. Just because Zell Dincht has moves very similar to Tifa, it doesn't mean the two are connected in any way. Am I making any sense?

Unless Nomura has actually tied AC and X-2 together, I'm not sure I'd quite buy that theory. It IS an interesting one though. ^^

Actually, if you watch Distance: the making of FFVII, Nomura will tie the game's theme, Life, with AC. The question was something like: "FFVII's theme was Life. How did AC come about and what is it trying to tell us?" Nomura answers that question.

He goes into detail about the above by explaining that rather than memories, they [SE] wanted to focus on something else. He says that Cloud sees Aerith because her consciousness continues to live on in him. Therefore, this isn't about Cloud conjuring up images of Aerith based off of memories. She really is there. Seriously, and considering that Cloud always has that awed look on his face whenever he sees her, she had to have been there (in spirit form, that is).

Again, all of this can be found in Distance(the 'extras' DVD).

...Nomura never tied the two games together though. I've yet to see any two Final Fantasy games with exact/connected concepts.

The connection is obvious: The kid Shin-Ra says he can turn pyreflies (spirits) into energy. In FFVII the company Shin-ra makes energy from the lifestream (spirits).

Saying her consciousness lives on in him can easily be seen as her actions being carried on by him. Her actions are continued by his. Her actions dictated by her conscious. So if he acts for her, he uses her conscious. Therefore her conscious can live on thropugh him. Sorry to mod a post but: He says he sees her because he carries her consciousness, so if he has her actions in mind, you could see those scenes as a self debate similar to "what would jesus do?"

The appearance of pyre flies is more unique than a shooting star. The look, and what they entitle is clear: a dead spirits sourced from FFX. A shooting star is a natural occurence used in stories for dramatic effect. The effect could suggest the making of a wish or promise, or showing promise. A shooting star is much more unidentified than a pyre fly.

The similar moves are fanservice. As I mentioned earlier, if you consider the Shin-ra connection fanservice then you should consider FFVII;AC fanservice too, as it was made by popular demand. Actions based on fanservice is closer to an easter-egg and make like for debate topic.

I might be being a little dumb, but did you mention his answer?

I thought I did :lol:

He goes into detail about the above by explaining that rather than memories, they [SE] wanted to focus on something else. He says that Cloud sees Aerith because her consciousness continues to live on in him.

Nomura already said that this isn't about memories. Another thing is, other people can actually sense her, so she can't be just Cloud's imagination. Notice, too, that in Calling...even when Cloud hasn't seen her, Aerith is shown to be standing in a field of flowers in the "live" world. What do you suppose that's showing then if Aerith is just Cloud's imagination?

Right...no double standards...but that's only IF the two are indeed connected in any way, which is something that hasn't exactly been proven.

Nothing can be proven, only believed based on information (senses, etc). The connection is pretty obvious:

FFVII = FFX
Materia = Statues of faith
---powers of materia based on knowledge = summons powered by spirits
founder of Shin-ra electrical company = Shin-ra
Lifestream = Farplane
floating pyrefly-like things in AC = pyreflies
prayers activating materia = prayers activating statues and fayth
summoned meteor = great destruction being summoned

Even if they said they were connected, that wouldn't affect me. They could just be back-pedaling based on attacks or demand. SE is not perfect.

As far as not concentrating on memories, he's doing it for what he sees as her, not in memory. She (or the she he sees) has affected his actions not his memories.

I'm logging for now. Leave me some more debate stuff for tomorrow :3

If Nomura says that Cloud loves Aerith, then he does. If Nomura says that AC was based off of concepts from FFX and X-2, then they are. If he hasn't said such things, then neither of them are facts. Basically, you're basing a theory off of a theory. :/

None of that ever crossed my mind until you mentioned them. Actually, in all my years, I've never heard anyone else theorize that FFX and FFVII were connected. Surely, it can't be that obvious then. :P

Basically, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this:
other people can actually sense her, so she can't be just Cloud's imagination. Notice, too, that in Calling...even when Cloud hasn't seen her, Aerith is shown to be standing in a field of flowers in the "live" world. What do you suppose that's showing then if Aerith is just Cloud's imagination?

My sister had to tell me you replied...

What if on monday Nomura says Cloud is based on the british
then on tuesday Nomura says Cloud is based on the German

The have basicall said there is a connection with Shin-ra. You can't expect him to outright say FFX comes before FFVII because no one has asked, but you can tell it is by something he worked on. If he wrote FFVII/VII:AC/X/X-2 as books would that be poof, even though the same info is presented in games? Both are reasonable forms of media. If they weren't then you would have over 100,000 FFVII fan sites populated with intelligent people.

What evidence is there against them being connected? There's obviously evidence they are from what I posted:

Shin-Ra is by far the most blunt hint. You can go look at a script of X-2, towards the end, he talks about changing spirits into energy. And in VII there's Shin-Ra electric company that uses spirits. No connection?

Answer me this: Do you believe they are not connected in any way more than they are FF games?

No one else sees her. Sensing her actions amounts to armbands and an understanding she had an effect in some way. Why can't that way be through Cloud's actions?

And standing in the live world, and not being seen by others later. Are you suggesting a ghost? A unique random event? Why can't someone with extreme guilt, self-esteem issues, who had mako put in them, and stole someone's identidy after seeing them die not be crazy enough to see things? Seeing her alone could be a representation of his memory, or actions. Even if they say memories are not concentrated on, they can still be there. How does someone being alone in an expansive field with noone to confirm her existence be proof she's actually there?

Sorry to be so harsh, but I'm hearing repeats, so I have to repeat a bit more clearly.
I do not mean to attack anyone personally.

It doesn't matter. You still insulted the most important person to me. He is far more intelligent than many people and I believe he deserves better than that.

Oh eh, carry on Jeff and HD. Sorry to interupt. ^_^

I think of them as separate games: separate characters, separate stories, separate messages/themes, etc.

Well, considering that the wolf (Cloud's guilt) was already gone, but that Cloud STILL saw her...I don't think his ability to see her was merely based on guilt or craziness.

Remember the children? Remember what the little girl said?

"It's just like she said. Wait here and Cloud will come back."

Supposedly, Aerith communicated with her. Or what about the children who were showing her something when Cloud first spotted her in the church? Looks to me like they can communicate with her. Does that still make her only Cloud's imagination?

She was shown to the audiance as being there. If she was only Cloud's imagination, he'd be the one seeing her. He never saw her, so she couldn't be just his imagination.

So when they showed the wolf he was real? I'm suggested that his talking with her could either be imagination pushed by Cloud, or metaphorical. Like the wolf was a metaphor.

So a girl saying 'she said cloud would come back' is a stronger connection than the Shin-Ra?

Answer this then in a yes/no fashion (simple question): Is that phrased connection just fanservice? Feel free to detail, but I'd like a straight answer.

Also, my memory is hazy, just to make sure, by little girl you don't mean Marlene right? I couldn't find it in a script. If it was Marlene, then she could easily be talking about Tifa. The reason Tifa would say that to her is reassurance for when cloud ran off. The only non-descript talking girl I found is this one:

She never speaks outloud again.

I did find, however, this:

So it's not a physical being, just something he sees. Or he was teleported off his bike into a flower field, talked, tele'd back to bike still balancing. This also shows he wants to talk to her for forgiveness, end his guilt. The wolf doesn't go away until much later.

Left:
How is what Cloud see in AC, merely an idealized perfect image of Aerith?
There is no circumstances in AC to allow Aerith to portray her "stubborness" (I would rather use stubborn in place of pushy")...

There is a little bit on Aerith's playfulness - She giggled and asked Cloud, wrt to his seek for forgiveness, "By whom?" ...and also "zuru zuru zuru~" ..and also "Why is everyone calling me mother?"

Most importantly, after her physical death, Aerith has certainly grown more mature and calm, as portrayed in MoTP, which is not difficult to understand why. IMO, the Aerith portrayed in AC, is very much a realistic Aerith, and not mere idealized goddess image of her.

I think this is uncalled for, neko. Augora is clearly just making a loose comment, with hardly any real intention to demean your brother.

I see it as an Idealized because I don't believe it's real. If it were her consciousness with him he wouldn't see anything. But instead he has visions, while driving, that allows here to be perfect. It's not so much not being pushy, it's how perfect he advice is, her serene attitude. The vague giggle can be seen as part of her portrait innocence. Her lack of reaction to serious conditions is inhuman. Saying she has been through a lot that's toughened her, then would also apply to the entire returning cast. Most of them get angry, nervous, sad, etc. All of Aerith's actions could be varied, but are vague, and far from any extreme.

Did Nomura say that the wolf's consciousness continues to live on in Cloud? Were the others portrayed to be able to communicate with it? Were they able to sense it like they sensed Aerith? Was Cloud ever shown looking at the wolf with an awed look on his face?

I don't believe Cloud ever actually saw the wolf. Like you said, it's there as symbolism of Cloud's guilt. Cloud doesn't seem to be able to actually see it, touch it, or communicate with it. The wolf's case and Aerith's case are obviously different.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. I'm simply saying that since the girl/children can communicate with Aerith, she's obviously not a mere figment of Cloud's crazed imagination.

Not sure here either what you mean. I believe that a sequel to any game/book (etc.) will have some kind of fan influence in it. However, I'm not sure how that's saying FFVII and FFX are connected in any way.

No. Not Marlene. The girl who gives Cloud the message at the end of the movie right after Cloud wakes up in the Church. The message isn't from Tifa. The girl was referring to Aerith. :)

She does. Rewatch the end of AC.

I never said Aerith was a physical being like Cloud or like Tifa.
She's there in spiritual form. She's not just a mere figment of Cloud's imagination. That's all I'm saying.

How did they sense Aerith? (i'll continue the wolf thing when you answer this)

As far as the connection thing. I'm saying that because a game by the same company, same game line and name, shows a connection with a name and action that is obviously continued into VII there is a connection, a reference if you will. I'm asking if you're choosing to ignore that reference as it is only a cheap fanservice.

As far as the girl: Here's a link to a translation to the original script: here

Though it differs vaguely from the American script. It is the original. The pure story. Additions were added to appeal to the public. A fanservice to Americans. Accepting this would suggest that despite it's a cheap fan service: it is there. The connection in FFX-2 is there, if you have not played the game let me explain: Throughout the whole game a boy genius is with you named Shinra. Towards the end he tells the group he thinks he found a way to convert the energy of the farplane (afterlife, lifestream, etc) into energy. This is an obvious refrence to the Shinra company of FFVII. This suggests that FFX's story occurred before FFVII. His inventions and ability lead to Mako reactors. Though in seven it says Reeves designed the reactors, he only designed those particular ones. That is the connection.

No apology will please you, will it? o.O

1)You see it as "idealised" because you don't believe it is real?

2) Or was it unreal, because it is "idealized"?
Which is how I interpreted your argument initially =/

Ok Auguro & Neko, let's drop the matter yah? Because we have bigger hearts than letting a minor misunderstanding gets in our way of being friendly online D= ^_^

Again, Marlene sensed Aerith when Sephiroth appeared and Cloud was about to begin his battle. She said something like "it's her". We're shown shots of the church and the holy materia falling into the lake. SE makes it obvious Marlene is referring to Aerith. While standing on the deck of Cid's ship after the scene where Cloud basks in the healing rain, Tifa, referring to Aerith, says "You've been there with us all along. Thank you."

At the end, Cloud looks around the church to find Aerith who seems to be interacting with two little boys. They appear to be showing her something they found.

I guess my question to you is, have you seen the actual movie?
I just skimmed over that script, and there's a lot missing from it (not to mention that some of those scenes are not in order and were slightly different in the actual movie). It looks like that's just the script of an early screening of AC, not the script of the final movie. The whole ending where the moogle girl talks with Cloud is missing.

She speaks to Cloud in the Church at the end of the movie, telling him that Aerith told them [the children] she would bring Cloud back. I don't see how that's saying that Aerith is just a part of Cloud's crazed imagination.

Like I said, that appears to be an early screening of AC. During those early screening stages, they show bits of the movie to give fans an "idea" of what the movie will be like. It's not meant to show fans the actual/whole movie.

The Japanese have the same exact movie we do.
Ours isn't any different from theirs...so why would our version be "fanservice to Americans". O.o

One could theorize that, but it's nothing definite. To me, it's more like one of those easter egg things...or perhaps, like the idea of a "Cid" existing in every single FF game. None of these Cids are the same Cids, and they're not connected in any way. I personally don't believe the different games in the series are directly connected in the fashion you believe they are. They have always been separate stories on their own. I can't remember if the worlds of FFVII and FFX even share the same names.

Augora:

I think there was a little misunderstanding between you and Neko. You were clear that you didn't mean to insult, so perhaps the rest of us should just forgive and forget. :)

You're right, I didn't know my one little comment would get out of hand.

Just a simple I'm sorry. That wasn't an apology. That was an excuse. (Crap, I didn't realize Jeff was logged in! This ND, not Jeff!)

I don't think this would really make much sense because they've already given an explanation on what happens after someone's death in FFVII. Bugenhagen stated it.

"Bugenhagen: Ho Ho Hoooo. Yes, it is something, isn't it? Well, let's get to the
subject. Eventually... all humans die. What happens to them after they die? The
body decomposes, and returns to the Planet. That much everyone knows. What
about their consciousness, their hearts and their souls? The soul too returns
to the Planet. And not only those of humans, but everything on this Planet. In
fact, all living things in the universe, are the same. The spirits that return
to the Planet, merge with one another and roam the Planet. They roam, converge,
and divide, becoming a swell, called the 'Lifestream'. Lifestream... In other
words, a path of energy of the souls roaming the Planet. 'Spirit Energy' is a
word that you should never forget. A new life... children are blessed with
Spirit energy and are brought into the world. Then, the time comes when they
die and once again return to the Planet... Of course there are exceptions, but
this is the way of the world. I've digressed, but you'll understand better if
you watch this."

And then you'll see a short cinema with a body turning into lifestream, returning to the planet and turning back into a person on the other side.

Basically if you were to use the pyrefly theory you would have to ignore this information; which is obviously canon.


And sorry but no time left for more of a reply need to go. Busy day. Have a nice one.

Fine then, I'm sorry about one comment that you kinda blew out of proportion. Let's not do this again. I believe this is stupid and we are just wasting space on this topic.

So Aerith gets to be a unique exception? She dies, and her consciousness returns to the earth with her soul and body. Her knowledge added to the pool for future materia. Yet somehow her entire soul remains separate from the lifestream's whole. Unrecycled, defying the laws of their nature. If that's true, does not that make her existance practically a sin? A selfish act? Retaining herself not to be recycled into future generations?

This suggests that a growing populace could be supported because each living thing has a certain amount of life in it. That life returns with knowledge, not memories (This supported by the idea that the game is based on life, not memories). Then new living things just gets a portion of that life equal to the amount of living things. If you think that equal distribution of life is faulty, then their world could not support a growing populace, as there's a limited amount of lifestream. So grandpa's theory couldn't be utterly correct, right? So why couldn't more be wrong?

The point I'm working on now is this:
-You can ignore the connection between FFX and FFVII if you see it as a cheap fanservice. This would suggest something made for fans and not actual story is void in debate. This should then apply to Advent Children. My sister attended a Final Fantasy concert. There she recieved a booklet. Inside they say clearly that advent children was made by popular demand for fans. A fanservice. They had no original intentions to continue the story any more than they originally plan for the other games. Even if it is a more derict link (characters, etc) that's not much point. FFT has Cloud as a character. Anyone would agree that never happens. Then there's a follow up point, well Cloud is an optional character in FFT, that's why it doesn't count. Well the Shinra connection in X-2 is not optional. It is part of the story.

But if you see the connection as an option by the gamer, then debate is impossible, as there is no correct answer. You could continue to debate relationships, but you'd have to not include AC if you wanted to be utterly correct in debate.

Neko, just drop this, okay? It seems a really silly thing to be arguing about. Augora said she didn't mean it to be an insult, and it does seem to me that it was an off handed remark and wasn't intended to be upsetting. STA and Hadeys have already told you both to forgive and forget. Don't make me have to start handing out warnings.

Back on topic, yes, Aerith does get to be a unique exception. When she gets into the Lifestream in Maiden Of The Planet, she doesn't get absorbed into it like everyone else. She can travel the lifestream freely.

Aerith doesn't know why she can retain her consciousness, but the Planet tells her it is because she still has things she needs to do. Obviously, if it weren't for Aerith, Geostigma wouldn't have been healed, so we can assume that in AC she still has her consciousness seperate from the Lifestream, and still exists as her soul.

So you are saying she was maintained to defy the laws of nature, withholding her portion of life from continuing to a new born?

The planet needs her sort of alive to talk? It can maintain a spirit of a person, but can't send a message to a single person? And what does she do? give him some moral support? He would have done the same without her, maybe more depressed, but the same. If you say she was revived to heal the people, why could a spirit maintained by a planet do something the planet couldn't?

No he wouldn't. Without Aerith, Cloud wouldn't have defeated Bahamut. He wouldn't have been healed, so he would have died. He wouldn't have had the strength to fight Kadaj and Sephiroth, not only because of his Geostigma, but also because Aerith telling him that she never blamed him, and Cloud knowing she was by his side all the time, is what spurred him on and gave him the confidence in himself to fight again.

I'm not saying she was revived by the Planet to heal people. I'm saying she stayed the way she was in the Lifestream, retaining her consciousness, ever since her death. In Maiden, Aerith says that she may eventually return to the Planet.

But since she can still touch Cloud's hand, heal him, speak to him, and heal everyone's Geostigma, she obviously hasn't returned to the Planet by the time AC rolls around. She's still a soul seperate from the Lifestream.

I think the reason that the Planet needed Aerith to heal Geostigma is because the Planet can't do anything without someone to carry it out for them. The Planet couldn't protect itself in FFVII without creating the WEAPONS. It couldn't shield itself from Meteor, it was Aerith and the rest of the souls in the Lifestream who had to do it. Only the Cetra can hear the voice of the Planet, and since Aerith is the last Cetra, she is the last one who can understand what the Planet is trying to tell her and what it wants her to do. That's probably why she wasn't absorbed into the Lifestream, because there is no living Cetra to take over her duties.

By the way here's a link to Maiden if you want to read it.

Ok, this is what I'm hearing:

A planet that can create life, grant life, maintain life, create giant creatures of immense power can't stop three small guys from making something bad. It can't stop a new sephiroth. It can't stop a monster summoned with energy from the planet. It's can't give someone a boost. It couldn't make a weapon more powerful than cloud.

But a person revived and maintained in cloud's consciousness can convince a single human to save the world. Heal him. Give him a boost in energy (or whatever that was when he killed bahamut)
Cloud+Aerith is greater than the planet?

They are creations of the planet. The planet could have used any means, made something to guide and help Cloud. Yet for some reason it chose to act on Clouds sentiments instead. Indulging his guilt with contact to a lost love. As far as I can tell, the planet does not work for pure good. Just to maintain itself as it can. If it was good there wouldn't be avalanche. A good pushed by torment and environmental destruction to have to act for goodness.

So a planet looking simply to maintain itself would have a much more efficient way to stop something less than 7 ft tall. It can make monsters, but it can't make a means for it to talk.

This seems ridiculous to me.

I'm aware of the games, movie, and 'stories'.