Kingdom Hearts has been on my mind for a while, but I wanted to touch upon what Nojima had said in an interview (and how that relates to FFVII and AC)...

I admit, before KHII, I always believed Aerith represented the light—not exactly "pure" of course, but pretty damn close to it. I find it interesting that Nojima feels that Aerith belongs to neither light nor darkness. But it has certainly revised my views on Cloud/Aerith/Tifa and what each of them symbolize. At first I didn't like what Nojima said, but the more I thought about it, the more it made sense to me.

Basic breakdown
Aerith = Cloud's light
Sephiroth = represents Cloud's darkness and the darkness
Tifa = purity of light; the bright white light itself

Now let's take a look at KHII.

When Tifa approached Cloud, he backed away, covering his eyes, wincing just a tad when her light flashed here and then. Her light was purely white and extremely bright; one could say it symbolizes the purity of light.

On a closer look, Sephiroth’s statement does ring true. Cloud has gone too deep into the darkness to be able to embrace the light fully, and the scene in which Cloud is blinded by Tifa’s light is a symbol of that.

Perhaps Cloud knows the truth behind Sephiroth’s words too, because he doesn’t outright reject them. Instead, he responds with doubt and uncertainty. While he knows he won’t turn to darkness, he is not sure the light is for him either.

In this scene, you could say Sephiroth represents the darkness and Tifa represents the light. Nomura offers this interpretation as well:

Sephiroth and Tifa stand on two extremes of the spectrum. Sephiroth, the darkness; Tifa, the light. Notice how Nomura seems to de-personify her and calls her “not a regular kind of human being” in the sense that she serves more as a tool/symbol than as a separate character in her own right.

In that sense, she symbolizes pure, white light. She stands on the extreme end of the spectrum, and this is signaled by her conversation with Sephiroth:

To me, Tifa seems to be missing the point. Cloud can’t cast away the darkness, because it will always be a part of him. Neither can he can’t just ignore darkness and put a cover over it with light. Darkness will always be a part of every human being. It’s not about good vs. evil in the sense that the light should destroy darkness.

It’s about finding your light WITHIN the darkness. It’s about co-existing darkness with light, because the stronger the darkness, stronger the light (and visa versa). Because of this, light cannot survive without darkness and visa versa. This a theme emphasized over and over again in the Kingdom Hearts series.

But Tifa—as a being who represents the pureness of light—can’t understand this. Perhaps this is what Nomura meant when he said Tifa was “something different, who doesn't exist as a human being.” She is unable to comprehend the fact that the heart of a human being will always have light and darkness coexisting together.

Let’s go back to what Nojima said concerning Tifa in AC:

Yes, KHII is separate from AC, but like what Nomura had said about KH in relation to FFVII, it would answer some questions about the Compilation of FFVII series.

Could the fact that Tifa’s light is too bright for Cloud to handle and therefore, represents the pureness of light [KHII] be a reference to the fact that Tifa can’t understand the “complexities of his heart” [AC]? Not literally, of course, but on a symbolic level. Of course, these aren't the only factors; there are more as to why Tifa doesn't understand his heart...but that's another story.

Anyway, let’s go back to what Nojima said about Aerith:

Aerith, as a stable being who understands both light and darkness, would probably understand that Tifa’s suggestion to cover up the darkness with light wouldn’t work. Because Aerith can go to either if she wants to, she is able to realize that the light and darkness have a proportional relationship, and as a real human being herself, she knows it from experience as well.

This is why Aerith is compatible with Cloud, whose light is rather golden in color, as opposed to the pure white light of Tifa’s. Although Cloud can’t embrace the darkness fully, he can’t embrace the light completely either. To sum it up, he belongs to neither. Aerith, with a better understanding the darkness and the complexity of the relationship with light and darkness, would be a better candidate to help Cloud deal with the darkness within his heart. She can help find the light within himself while guiding him the way to balance the two out together.

In a way, she does a similar thing in FFVII. Before Cloud meets Aerith, he is a cold, uncaring “lone wolf” who pretty much fits his role as the heartless mercenary. But because of her influence, he begins to change gradually. She even manages to get him to laugh. By the end of the game, Cloud is no longer uncaring or cold towards life. It’s not that he didn’t have the heart to care or love before; it was just his heart was just so bitterly overwhelmed with darkness that he couldn’t find the light. But Aerith helps him find it. That is why she is his light.

You see, it’s not about destroying the darkness so much as finding the light within the darkness. Perhaps Cloud knows this too:

I find it very interesting that Nojima mentions that Cloud is pretending to chase Sephiroth. We all assume that Cloud “chasing” Sephiroth means to confront him and destroy him, who is his darkness. But maybe that’s not the point at all.

Maybe that’s why Aerith doesn’t accompany him to fight along his side in KHII. It’s about trying to balance out darkness with light, but to be able to that, first you must find the light within. She’s done that part for him, but chasing the darkness and destroying it permanently isn’t the solution, and she knows it. (So she waits, spiritually giving him strength like she has always done in FFVII and AC.)

Cloud’s battles with Sephiroth aren't survivor-esque duels to destroy each other. For Cloud, it’s a constant struggle to keep the balance between the two entities; to restore the balance, Cloud has to overcome the darkness inside himself. Perhaps Sephiroth can never be destroyed completely (Remember AC? “I will never be a mere memory…”) because he not only represents darkness to Cloud, but the darkness within Cloud as well. (In the "Showdown of Fates II," Sora refers to Sephiroth as the "darkness inside of [Cloud].") Which reminds me of a quote from Reunion Files:

Why?

Because Aerith is Cloud’s light, and Sephiroth is his darkness. Light and darkness cannot exist without one another. Cloud manages to find the light inside himself in AC despite Sephiroth’s presence:

Aerith is the key, per se, to finding the light within himself—that’s why her he sees her consciousness inside him. In that sense, Aerith is Cloud’s light.

[Wow. Sorry this is so long and confusing. Someday I will clean it up and turn it into an essay.]

Wow, you have some very nicely thought out ideas here. I like how you're incorporating parallels into this. Personally, I have always believed in there being strong parallels between the KH series and FFVII. I've only read through your ideas once, but I agree with you on many of these points. Certainly, a lot of your explanations do make sense. I'll read it over again later and comment on specific ideas.

*is extremely tired at the moment* >_<

Fire ahead, Hades' Daughter; I'm interested to what you have to say. A fresh perspective is nice to hear. I'm still working with the kinks as to what Tifa represents exactly in relation to Cloud, not to Sephiroth.

In relation to Sephiroth, Tifa represents the light itself. But perhaps it is not light in the traditional sense when it comes to Cloud. In relation to Cloud, Tifa represents the present, in both KHII and AC.

The present is not exactly equated to what Tifa was after in FFVIIAC--which was a family. It includes the idea of settling down with a family, but this isn't all Cloud is runing away from.

Why he turns to the past in KHII is not exactly clear except that it has a large part to do with Sephiroth. I think Sephiroth's line above is an allusion/parallel to AC more than a plot device to the side story in KHII. In AC, Cloud was accused of staying within the past because of Aerith and Sephiroth (because he couldn't recouncile with his light and darkness?). He couldn't move past Aerith's death or deal with Sephiroth in general. One of his biggest critics was Tifa, who wanted him to move on and live in the present.

Past = Aerith ("to free her frozen smile"), Sephiroth ("to settle my past")
Present = Tifa + co., but mostly Tifa

Towards the end of AC, Cloud is shown to be reconciled. But while he doesn't linger towards the past as he had used to, he doesn't totally live in the present. While he regards Tifa, Barrett, Yuffie, Cid, Vincent, and all rest as his "family," he still sees Aerith [in his consciousness] because Cloud still strives to the Calling of the "Promised Land." He strikes a balance between the past and the present.

In KHII, Cloud is comfortable with the past, but not with the present. Perhaps to Cloud, Tifa's bright white light represents the present, which includes the idea of family. Defeating Sephiroth--overcoming the darkness within himself--won't draw him to the opposite end of the spectrum--the light (Tifa), but to the [stable] balance (Aerith).

So perhaps Cloud is trying to maintain balance in two ways in KHII: 1) Light/Darkness, 2) Past/Present. Once again, Square-Enix ties the themes of FFVII/AC with KHII.

I must applaud you! This was a great analysis and a nice change from the usual Cloti garbage plastered everywhere. I agree with alot of what you say and I think you interpreted it all very logically and I definetly will use some of your insight in maybe future debates : D

Thanks! :)

One favor though (or a condition, if you will)--when you do use my analysis in future debates, do you mind PM-ing me the links to the debates? I'd like to know what the reactions from our opponents would be, so I can revise and strengthen my arguments.

oh yes I will! and of course I'll accredit you :gift:

There's no need to credit me as long as you paraphrase or put my analysis in your own words. If you'd like to link back for people to "read more about it," then you can link it back to this thread or preferably, the essay I will work on to organize this analysis into as a pdf (and indirectly credit me that way). But otherwise, it's fine. :)

Ok that's wonderful I'll do that! But I think you should make your own site and post all your essays I would say that would be a great resource.

I plan on doing that...if I ever get the rest of my long To Do List done. :P

Wow..I love how you relate all of the games with AC..brilliant! :)

I know Aerith is always Cloud's light.. But I feel a bit confused with Tifa being the light..

You make me more understand about light/darkness.. Thank you PinkRibbon!! :gift:


I want to ask you something..
What do you think about Cait Sith's prediction?
I mean.. The one that Cloud and Aerith's bright future?
Is there any about light/darkness related to that?

Geez...I'd never played KHII before but I've seen all the classic scenes in this game (from some fan tribute:))


I really admire your analysis this light/darkness stuff. It does help a lot for people who didn't play that game. Like me, I know the timeline about DC, CC, BC, AC, but I found it difficult to link KH games with all FF7 series according to its timetable.

Now I know mostly about what's going on to Cloud here!( I dare not to say fully understanding....cuz readers have to experience the game themselves)


To be honest, I didn't like this light-searching job for Cloud in the begining.... fighting over something abstract was unacceptable to me>"<(and....u know, "WHAT?? Aerith is not with him throughout the game???And Tifa offers her light??"-->that's my major complaint :blush:


But now, with your amazingly detailed& reasonable analysis, I understand:)

What confuses Cloud most would be his caotic mind. It surely would be an abstract discussion here when problem relates to someone's deepest mind..



PS: I have a question--- I've heard that Cloud would found Aerith in the end of the game. She seems to approach him....What does that scene mean when it's put into the light/darkness discussion here?
(I'll take that question away if I post it at wrong place^^")


Once again~~I enjoy reading ur post so~~much!! Thank u PinkyRibbon!! :fangirl:

Hm, I think it's more like foreshadowing Aerith's death--playing along with the theme of a "Love that could never be." When Cloud is told that he will "lose something dear" by Caith Sith, it rings with the line in KH, especially KH:CoM. You could draw a connection between those two lines. Or, it could be more of an allusion to FFVII.

Well, there's two kinds of light in KH. There's a person's light, and then there's light itself. In KH, Nomura said that the theme he was trying to portray was about connections through the heart. The light is a key to maintaining that connection. KHII, for Cloud at least, is about finding the light within yourself.

The ending was about finding Cloud's light, but KHII is about using the light WITHIN himself to overcome the darkness.

Thanks for your comments! ^_^

Wow! You explained it very well. I haven't played the KHI so I didn't understand the debates about Clouds light. Now you've explained it, I finally understand the light they are talking about.

Well I look at it this way. In KH Cloud was lost, he didn't know what to do. He wanted to find his light again (Aerith) even if it meant stepping into the darkness to find it (which he did) even his outfit kind of looks that way ... note he has one black wing.

And then in KHII he looks a lot different. The black wing is gone, and when Tifa tries to give him her light he knocks it away, instead finding the light inside himself. I think that this was because he already found Aerith and she was able to show him the light within himself so he didn't have to go searching in the darkness anymore. Note this is coming from a rabid Clerith so ... think what you want ^_^

But I'm amazed at how much thought was put into a game that has Disney characters in it ...

This is a good point, and another good way to look at it. *grins*

Sometimes I think that too.

But then again, I don't think SE would want to inherit Disney's current rep. for simplicity when SE prides itself for being complex, confusing, cryptic, and subtle.

Some good stuff here.

KHII seemed all about "balance", and adding a little more depth to the concepts of dark and light. KHI was more like an intro - it was basic. Aeris was the light to Sephiroth's darkness, and it was Aeris who was shown with him in the end, accepting him. Most Clotis harped on the "light" theory when Tifa came around in KHII, and, like Tifa, completely missed the point.

Aeris herself is not the only character in the middle. Riku and Sora are also shown to be accepting the other sides of themselves - Riku needed to realize he did have light in him, and Sora had to face his darkness. In the end, the two of them are in a steady middle ground.

This is why Tifa still simply doesn't fit in or really get Cloud. She seems to be stuck in the mindset of "light = good, dark = bad get rid of it all" but as you said, humans can't live that way. You can't be all dark or all light (PoH excluded). In a parallel to AC, she is forcing something on him that is obviously bright to others (most people would think having a family is a good thing) but something Cloud himself just isn't ready for - it isn't his, it doesn't suit him. It's her idea of light, her idea of how Cloud should be. While her intentions are always good as opposed to Sephiroth's, they are both trying to force something on him when he must figure it out for himself, and have that middle ground Aeris has. In the end, it's always Aeris totally accepting Cloud no matter how he comes back - dark demon wing on his back or not.

I like the way you presented the ideas. They all made more sense now.

This is shallowness but when I heard Sephiroth say, "that light doesn't suit you" to Cloud, pertaining to Tifa's light, I rejoiced. I was like, "See? Even Sephiroth says so!"

Nojima saying something about Tifa not being able to understand the complexities of Cloud's heart is another thing. But at least it bothers her, because if it doesn't, it would seem like she's become completely blind already. She needs to realize on her own that nothing romantically can work out between herself and the dude. :peace: