Note: I brought this up in the "Moving On..." thread, but I decided that this ought to have its own thread.... It's about whether or not everyone here would like for Cloud to die in Advent Children, so please give your opinions. :D

I've seen a lot of people in many forums say that they want Cloud to die (and if anyone here agrees, then I'm honestly sorry if anything I'm about to say offends you) and I can't get behind this idea at all. That sort of ending would depress me so much! Now I love C/A for so many reasons, but I don't like the idea of the pairing demanding his death. I understand where a lot of people are coming from with this idea (that he deserves to be happy, and he can only be happy - or at least, be happiest - with Aeris, and this is the only way they can be together). So while I understand the ideas behind it, I can't help but dislike the idea that he can only be happy if he dies. It takes away all other options for him. Death = Happiness seems senseless to me. It erases all possibilities of finding happiness and a new lease for life on the Planet. Living has so much to offer! Cloud is a fighter, a survivour, despite facing the very worst, so it just seems so unfitting (to me, anyway). Poor Cloud went through a lot; death shouldn't be on his list. Despite everything, I believe he's gained so much inner-strength and wisdom (and I don't care whether or not he's just a bunch of pixels, I still admire him for it!). He conquered his past and his limitations. I think having him die would undo all that. Instead, he should be rewarded for all his achievements by being given happiness in life, in one way or another. The theme of the film is survival, after all. I don't think this applies to just surviving Geostigma but surviving his grief and guilt, and the longing for death.

You make a good point, Hyper-Ballad, but do you really expect Square to make Cloud into a happy character with no cares in the world? That would be completely contrary to his characterization. I'd hate to see Cloud die, but I'd hate even more to see him changed into some happy go lucky Joe Schmoe with a smile on his face who laughs and jokes with his friends and enjoys life to the fullest. That's not Cloud - never has been - and I'd hate to see him turned into a character like that.

Cloud has always been a tragic character, and I'd like him to remain a tragic character. Turning Cloud into a happy guy is as ridiculous as turning Vincent into a happy guy. No, I don't want to see Cloud's character distorted and bent out of shape to that degree. I don't want to see Cloud enjoying all that life has to offer him. He's a reflection of our own insecurities, our own angst, our own failures, our own disappointments in life, and how they have impacted us. He's not a model of how to overcome life difficulties in order to find self-fulfillment and lead a happy life. That's just not Cloud, and that's not why we all love him.

It's not why we love Vincent, either, and I think few people want to see Vincent "happy" and enjoying life. We want Vincent to remain who he is. Why can Vincent remain who he is, but not Cloud? Would we have a problem with Vincent dying in order to meet Lucrecia, if he were in a similar circumstance with her?

I think you're misunderstanding me here, Anastar. I'm not saying that he should become "some happy go lucky Joe Schmoe" (dear God NO!!!), but he's no Vincent either. He should still learn to move on from his pain. Coming to terms with the things that haunt him oughtn't make him do a 180-degree change charcter-wise (and I'm not implying that it will, or should). To say that he can't ever get over the past and move on in one way or another is to deny him character-development. Having embraced life, he'll still have cares, worries, fears, etc. He'll still be himself, but with the option of changing and growing. Not growing changing into a polar-opposite charcter but just developing naturally. By the end, his attitude towards things in the original game seems healthy, maybe even positive. He hasn't been defeated by his traumas. The image of him at the end of FFVII is of a brave and defiant young man who'd faced terrible and soul-destroying events and emotions and still come out it believing in life, ready to survive it and face it. If he's a tragic character, then he never lets it beat him down or get the better of him in the end. He's unsure of himself, he messes up, but he gains so much strength. He doesn't let things consume him. He breaks down completely, but he finds his way back. He's a survivor. Clearly, the things that plague him in AC have diminished that spirit a little, but I still believe that that's what he is at the core.

I'm not saying that he should turn into Mr. HappySunshine, shack up with Tifa and have six kids or anything. I'm just saying that he deserves peace and happiness in life and is capable of finding them, without compromising his basic identity. Yes he's a reflection of our insecurities, our faults and failures, our humanity, but his character has always suggested to me that the dark side of our humanity is something we can overcome. He's not a role model or a perfect example, he's just a guy trying to sort himself out, but the point is he's always trying. He doesn't give up.

So to me, having him choose death as a way to escape life is no more true to his character than turning him the happy, jokey, smiley, not-a-care-in-the-world character we'd all hate to see him twisted into. Neither of those extremes are Cloud as we love him.

...we know we all really love him as a cross-dresser... :lol:

I know I'd like Cloud to die in Advent Children. I have my reasons, but I don't think they're all logical. ^_^' All for your judgment!

Cloud's life is one of the most depressing lives I'd ever heard of. His childhood has been anything but happy--he's rejected by kids and even the adults of Nibelheim, he doesn't have a dad and his crush doesn't think too much of him. He even got blamed for an accident he didn't cause--and he was just a kid then! And when he had a chance to deem himself (SOLDIER, first class!) he didn't make it. And then his village got burned down, his idol (Sephiroth?) went crazy and his best bud (Zack?) died. :( After that, if I'm not mistaken, he developed selective amnesia or something.

The only ray of light I could think of that happened in his life was Aerith. But she eventually disappeared, too. I won't even mention the fact that he was obligated to save a world that did nothing for him afterwards....

Anyway, considering all those misfortunes that happened in Cloud's life, I'd like to think that he'll do the Escapist thing and face death. Terribly romantic, but terribly tragic. Although, it would be nice if he did live something of a 'happy life' afterwards... but, I don't know. :ph43r:

Life is about living and learning, lessons, trials and tribulations. People rise from rags to riches, disaster to glory in it's brightest light. Cloud still has time to see that light and embrace it despite all he had faced, all the death that had surrounded him and the love he lost. He still has many years ahead of him to rise to the challenge of life in it's most wicked facade and make it to the end with a conscious effort and overcome all obstacles instead of walking a blinding path of regret, guilt, and self pity. He has dealt with a hefty load of evil and pain--he just has to work that much harder to find the happiness life can offer.

Cloud has angst in his life, but he isn't characterized as an angsty character. He has his light moments, and he has ability to overcome countless demons that surround his past and present. Cloud embodies us, the player; our humor, our insecurities, our ditzy blonde moments, our self doubt and determination. He can make it to the finish line.

Hmm, perhaps I can offer a differrent perspective on this matter. To some, death is not the end, it's just another step for you to surpass. One cannot determine another one's standard of hapiness as well. Of course, death is not happiness imo, but I believe the one after that would certainly grant it to you if you deserve to have it.

For example,to most religion, it's Heaven or Hell after death. To others, a cycle of birth, death, and rebirth until you've reached Nirvana. To Cloud, it could be Aerith in a place called "The Promise Land", a land that gives you supreme hapiness as stated in the game. :lol:

So I guess overall, it doesn't really matter whether Cloud should die or live. I think what really matters here is what awaits him in the end after passing all his trial, sufferings and tribulations.

*copy and pastes Shroud's post*

THERE!! *points* That's what I think! I'm original, yes? :D

Yeah, I agree with you, Shrouded Light ^^... And I think Cloud should die, but, if he lives and the end is good, all good then...

But I love tragic endings, they´re more memorable and beautyful than happy ending (mmm, it´s my opinion ¬¬)... But, like Anastar said, Cloud is a tragic character, too... I see Cloud like other main characters as Kenshin of Rurôni Kenshin, Spike of Cowboy Bebop, Kamui of X-1999 or Subaru of Tokyo Babylon and X-1999... Or also the main character of Gladiator... All this characters are tragic characters, and they only have the peace and the happines on the death. Kenshin moves on with Kaoru and they have a child, but at the end he only smiles truly when he dies. Spike moves on with the tripulation of the Bebop and he apparently is good, but at the end he and all people understand that he was only living a dream...

I isn´t saying that Cloud must end like this characters, but it´s probable and, in my opinion, it´s the most beautyful ending. It would be depressed, right, but beautyful ^^U... Also it doesn´t mean that death is a solution or a salvation... If Cloud dies saving the children or something like that, wouldn´t it be a prove of live?? You die because others can live... Although it isn´t of this theme, have you seen the film "the Sea Inside"?? It´s a film about a person who wants to die... But the film treats about a different points of view of differen people about the death and about the life... It has people who see the death like a solution of their problems and people who are supervivences and that they want to live... All of them have their ending, sad, happy or beautyful... I recommend it a lot U.U...

Okay, good... because I think too many people are looking for that. That's what I hear when I hear people say that "Cloud should be happy", and I strongly disagree with that. He needs to remain a tragic character.

I'd agree with all but the last part - that he came out of it believing in life, ready to survive it and face it. His primary motivations at the end of the game were to defeat Sephiroth, free Aerith and Holy, and find revenge. When he saw the Lifestream approaching Meteor, he was very at peace with it - I think he realized that it could mean his death, and he wasn't frantic or worried about it. If it meant his death, he was willing to accept that.

Where did you see indication that Cloud is a survivor? Cloud gave up more than once during the game (after the Temple of Ancients, the Reunion, the Lifestream Event), and he was dragged out of it by his friends rather than by his own choice.

Where did I say that Cloud would choose death? Willfully choosing to die and accepting death are two different things. I expect that - if Cloud dies during the game - it would be in order to save the Planet and/or the children.

Exactly, Shroud... in determining whether it's better for Cloud to find happiness through death or life, we're imposing our own moral standards on him and trying to impose our own views of life and happiness on him. As Shrouded pointed out, death means different things to different cultures. To many in our own society, death is often perceived as "the end". In many other societies, death is seen merely as another phase of life - a transition from one dimension of existence to another.

:lol: Everything that Anastar and Shrouded Light says. :P :P
I don't think we can force what kind of happiness we want for Cloud. I believe that what Cloud believes in his heart is right. If he should died in battle, than it was a heroic death....protecting his friends, the children, defeating evil.

If he should died smiling...than it'll be like Kenshin's death (sniff..sniff :( ), but if he died smiling, it'll tell us something. What made him happy at the end, to understand life to its fullest, and to meet his precious love.

If he should died in some other way, well....there must be a reason for that. But Cloud had face a lot and rather he understand that pain or not, its a lot to bear. If he wants to repent, it doesn't replace all the pain he felt and lost. So, Cloud will just have to find a way to understand it and meet his light again to give him another meaning. :P

Let me post a question, if death is the only way for him to overcome his guilt and grief, would you agree with it?

Because from what I read, it seems to me that some of you think that Cloud dying = losing his internal battle against his guilt. For one, I don't think so. Cloud dying is might merely be a sacrifice (maybe he died trying to save the children or tifa or marlene etc), but in death he attained peace and enlightenment. Is that very difficult to accept? ^_^

Likewise, if Cloud survived physically, would that mean him overcoming his guilt?
Not necessary. Then again, it could be another sort of enlightenment, in the sense that he might finally realise that the life that Aerith and the planet have given him should be used to help people, and not for him to waste it away... Agree?

Well this brings me back to the point that this realisation might have hit CLoud midway through the movie. He realised he should not wallow in self-pity , but instead should stand up to fight geostigma, to save the children...... but what if died to save the children? Can you accept that? ^_^

okie i am being repetitive lol..*runs off*

You made very good points in your post, STA! :rolleyes: One thing, though... Cloud has already been living his life in a way that would honor someone that died We're not sure whether the person who died was Aerith or Zack, but remember what he says on the beach when he drives the sword into the ground? He says that he decided to live his life for that person's share, meaning that he decided to live his life in a way that would honor the person who died. What was Cloud doing? He's been taking care of the orphans, so in one way Cloud had already decided to help the Planet in honor of the person who died.

I would think it's most likely Aerith that he would honor by taking care of the orphans, too. Yet, even in doing this, he is still plagued by guilt. Poor Cloud! :(