For the millionth time, I'm speculating randomly and asking questions I already feel I know the answers to, just to try and get other people to ask questions and think about things from a new angle. Oh, and because I have too many thoughts in my head. But I just thought this issue could do with being addressed:

Well, I've noticed that sex is one of the most differing aspects in C/T and C/A beliefs. So (because I love the sound of my own keyboard), I thought I'd try to dig a little deeper...

I've noticed that a lot of C/T fans put a lot of emphasis on sex - the argument that Cloud and Tifa had made love under the Highwind, that Cloud can't love Aeris because she's dead (and so they can't ever be together physically), etc. Heck, I've even heard some C/Ters say that Cloud should be Tifa just because of her chest size! It kinda makes me think that (some) C/Ters just think that life for Cloud and Tifa will just be one giant porno... :blink:

As we all know over here, C/A takes a very different attitude. Our emphasis is on the fact that it doesn't matter whether or not Cloud and Aeris can be together living, that love is stronger than death, and that just because you can't have a physical relationship with someone doesn't mean that you stop loving them or will automatically turn to someone you can have this with. We take the opinion that there's more to love than sex, and that the two things are very different.

In debates, when the Highwind-sex issue comes up, I've seen a lot of us C/Aers argue that C/T fans focus too heavily on sex and accuse them of thinking that sex is all love is about (I'm rolling my eyes in the direction of "Through Tifa's Eyes" right now...). Now what I thought was interesting is that while I've never seen a C/Ter retaliate with this argument, they easily could fire back by accusing C/A fans for not focusing enough on sex. I mean, it is an important part of romantic relationships and tied in with basic human needs, as well as being an expression of love. So what would anyone here say to a C/T fan accusing us of ignoring sex and sexual feelings (I guess that this would lead to a point along the lines of C/A being a fairy-tale, unrealistic romance blah blah blah)? C/T fans spend a lot more time thinking about the issue than we do, so what does this say about them and us?

For one thing, I'll say that thinking that Cloud and Tifa had sex on the Highwind (and will continue to have steaming hot sex throughout their relationship) is to ignore Cloud's character and the fact that he isn't a slave to his hormones. For him, the idea of sex doesn't seem to affect him that much. Just the fact that these two ladies like him bewilders him enough! But if Cloud's attitude towards sex is fairly neutral, where does this leave us C/Aers?

And the important question: DO we ignore sex? Do we take an innocent but ignorant view on romance?

I guess I'm trying to ask everyone: As a C/A fan, what's your stance towards the characters and sex? How important is sexuality? How important a role do you think sex is in relation to Cloud and Aeris and a possible relationship?

I think I'm getting a little close to asking what you think Cloud and Aeris' sex life would be like (!) but if that's how I'm coming across, know that that's not what I'm trying to get at...

I'll leave it at that. I think I've left the topic open enough for anyone to take it and the issues in pretty much any direction (that's why I've chosen to be deliberately vague on a few points). I guess I can see how this topic could lead to some very dirty talk, in which case, I'm apologising to all the mods in advance (sorry!). I'm not encouraging people to get into all the gory details, but just to talk about sex as an idea. But we can talk about it all maturely without offending anyone's sense of decency, right? This is all hypothetical talk anyway! I do think that sexuality is something Cloud/Aeris fans talk very little about, in comparison to Cloud/Tifa (and hey, maybe that's a good thing!), and I was just wondering about the reason, and what it says about us and our interrpretation of the characters and their romance.

The board's open for talk! :D

Obviously a sexual relationship between Cloud and Aeris is virtually impossible. While I'm not a huge fan of CloTi, I will say based on experience, the majority of non-rabid CloTi's do not believe Tifa and Cloud had sex under the Highwind. It's an idea come across by the rabids or those who don't care about the triangle and just saying things to get both sides going at each others' throats. While it's a fun possibility, most know it didn't happen.

As for the issue of sex, I personally find it to be of some importance. To connect with someones' mind, soul, and body is amazing to be simply put. Sometimes bonds can become stronger with the physical connection. In many relationships, couples fall apart when they lose the connection of mind, body, or soul. The loss of one could be detrimental to the status of their union.

I suppose I can see where Cleris could be considered Unrealistic. We base our views on Cloud loving a woman that is dead to the world. To dwell on her memory can be unhealthy to anyone, especially when they live a life filled with regret and guilt that surrounds their death. While we believe love never dies, our beliefs come at a consequence.

For the CloTi's, they believe in love, and the ability to move on. They also tend to believe that the physical, sexual aspect of a relationship is important to the bond, while we tend to forget about that aspect completely. Though we don't see a 'spiritual' bond between Cloud and Tifa, it can be argued that there is, so realistically they have all connections; mind, body and soul. A lot of it has to do with personal preference, and ones' own experience in life and love which is why the triangle was intended to be up to interpretation.

I may be a dirty girl, but the idea of sex is enjoyable to me. The fact that Cloud and Aeris couldn't engage in it is a little disappointing to me because I believe it would put the lock and key on their bond, but that's just me. However, if they could, there would be some wild times between the sheets...

Excellent response, PassiveAggressive! Just the type I was hoping for (thoughtful but fun), actually! :D

I'm totally with you on the importance and beauty of connection the souls through the bodies, and (like most people) consider this to be a vital part of any relationship (of course, while knowing that there's much more to love than that - it's a highly complex emotion, after all). That's why the growing tendency in some C/A fans to write it off and disregard it is a concern to me.

Reading over my original post, I think I sound biased, like I'm writing off C/T fans as being sex-crazed (I agree that this is only common in the rabid, scary fans not the normal ones) and us C/A fans as being focused on something higher, an emotional connection. I wasn't trying to say this, I was just pointing out the difference in our attitudes (I'm not suggesting that you misunderstood me either, I'm just being a little clearer). I totally agree with you about the emphasis on sex and physical love and erotic connection being a positive aspect of Cloud/Tifa and I think that our general avoidance of this subject in favour of the spiritual/emotional isn't always a good thing. I think that in extreme cases, we can sometimes write off C/T's physical emphasis as bad, shallow, empty, meaningless when in fact it represents a much more positive outlook than that, and at the same time raise the emotional importance of C/A so much that we end up ignoring the physical, which is bad. Sex is, after all, an end product of love. Cloud and Aeris have to have these feelings and emotions, otherwise what is their love?

Lol, trust me - you're not alone there! :P

Sorry if I made it seem like you couldn't talk about sex at all, or that talking about it in some sort of detail would be bad. I was just trying to make sure that I didn't offend anyone (personally, I wouldn't be offended, but I don't think I know everyone else here well enough to speak for them). I was just being a little cautious, just in case.

Loving this speculation! :lol:

I think part of the reason why the idea of C/A-sex appeals to me is because of the emotions involved, as well. The only time Cloud's emotions have ever really broken through all his walls are with (or rather, because of) Aeris. They have this incredible intensity. Her death was the moment in the game when we see him at his most raw and vulnerable. If she'd somehow lived, I'm sure Aeris would've managed to get him into that state some other way... :rolleyes:

But the idea of Aeris getting Cloud to break out of himself and all his defences and bonding with him intensely via lovemaking is one I find very romantic. It's something I think they both need so much. Every time in the game that Aeris manages to reach Cloud he seems to find it surprising, a little bewildering, but always pleasant. So if ever it was possible for them to have a sexual relationship (and I think if anyone could draw Cloud out of his general sexual disinterest/ignorance, it'd be Aeris), I think it'd be great for the two of them. ^_^

So while I think that the emotions and the spiritual connection are deeply important, we really mustn't forget the attraction and chemistry that sparked some of those feelings, and part of what drives them. At the same time, we have to keep the emotional feelings in perspective as well - these different feelings have to relate to and interact with each other. Otherwise we lose the passion.

And it's all about passion! :wub:

I don't think any CloudxAerith people try to deny that sex is important to a love relationship, but since when are we talking about Cloud and Aerith having a relationship? Aren't we talking about who Cloud loved during the game? What Cloud does after the game is completely open to speculation until AC is released.

Too many Cloti's say that Cloud will definitely fall into a relationship with Tifa after the game because she is available for sex while Aerith isn't. That's the kind of thinking that bugs me because availablility for sex isn't what determines whether or not you love someone. There's many available guys whom I am not interested in having a relationship with. There's much more to love than whether or not you can have sex with someone.

Tifa's availability makes her a possible candidate for a relationship with Cloud, but it does not guarantee it whatsoever. IF Cloud wants a relationship, there's a whole lot of other women available on the Planet besides Tifa. The fact that Tifa's available does not make it certain that she and Cloud will end up together at all. He has to fall in love with her first, and there's no guarantee that he will. It's just as possible that Cloud may choose to live alone or hook up with someone else.

As far as sex with Aerith goes, I'm not so sure it's impossible after seeing them in the flower field together. If Aerith can touch his arm, doesn't that mean that physical interaction with him is possible? We don't know yet how they are meeting - whether Cloud is there physically or mentally - but Cloud can obviously be with her in some way. Since he can be with her, we can't say for sure at this point what the limits of their relationship are, can we? :rolleyes:

Well for one thing, Cloud isn't dead when this meeting takes place, but Aeris is. Don't you think it would be a little weird if a spirit and a human being have intercourse? There are names for spirits such as this, and that's an Succubus. So I don't find that sensible by any means.

We aren't saying Cloud and Aeris had a relationship just as Cloud and Tifa did not. It's speculation if it were to occur how would it be. The entire basis of this topic is speculation. Tifa is a possible candidate for Cloud's affection, and a fairly suitable one at that whether sex is involved or not.

I haven't come across too many sensible, hardcore CloTi's that say that Cloud will DEFINITELY get with Tifa (they'd like him to, but there is no real telling). Even if he did, it obviously wouldn't be solely on the basis of sex since we know Cloud isn't hormonally driven.

It's too early to make judgements on what they can and can not do with one another. I'm pointing out a fact - physical interaction is possible between them.

I didn't say they had a relationship. I said that Aerith is the woman Cloud loved during the game.

I'm aware that it's speculation. I already stated that Tifa is a possible candidate, but I also pointed out that there's no guarantee that he will get together with her. It's pure speculation until the release of AC. It's also speculation whether Cloud would be interested in Tifa for the purpose of a sexual or love relationship.

I've come across many Cloti's who say that.

Well, this topic isn't really about a relationship between the two of them or what it would be like - it's more a discussion of the attitude of the fans, and concerns over taking it to the extreme, and the different views and ideals surrounding the issue.

I agree with you about how the possibility of a Cloud/Tifa relationship is often misrepresented by C/T fans as being logical and bound to happen just because Aeris is dead and Tifa isn't (I think I mentioned it somewhere in my original post). That's C/T's attitude to sex taken to the extreme: no possibility of sex = no possibility of love. But taken to a less extreme degree, the view of the more normal fan, it does focus on the here and now and is healthy and romantic in its own way (granted that you think Cloud and Tifa are in love, of course). I'm not saying that all Cloud/Aeris fans disregard sex; just that I've seen some (very few, but some) put so much emphasis on an emotional bond, and disreagrd the physical so much that they come very close to taking the possibility of sexual connection/attraction completely out of their bond, and turning it into a purely spiritual relationship.

Oh no - the speculation about sex was only valid (in my opinion, anyway) if she were alive, or revived, etc. As it is, with Aeris dead, a sexual relationship is impossible. And even if they could somehow make love in a dream or vision, it'd be unbearably poignant afterwards. No, I'm only speculating about a sexual relationship between the two in life, where they can have a future together and find happiness.

That touch wasn't physical, it was mental/spiritual if anything, so connection in the physical sense still has not been established. I'm fairly certain on this so far. But anything else can only be resolved after the film is released, obviously.

I feel like you almost twisted the topic, Anastar. This entire thing was speculation only. It had nothing to do with who Cloud loved during the game (or in Kingdom Hearts...), it was about how important each side feels about 'sex'.

Then I guess we lurk in different areas of the net.

Plus, while I meant this topic to be taken seriously, this is nonetheless meant to be a fun and open talk more than anything ! Just speculate and enjoy! ^_^

But what I'm pointing out is that CloudxAerith isn't about a relationship between them, and sex is part of a relationship. CloudxAerith is about Cloud loving Aerith during the game, and loving her to the extent that he wants somehow, some way to be with her again. So I think it's unfair to draw sex into the equation of their love for one another.

However - if you must draw it into the equation - then I went on to say I don't think it's impossible because physical interaction is possible between them as evidenced in the flower field scene.

Oh? Then I guess you haven't seen Ghost, with Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore. ;) Well, even if it wasn't actual sex due to the rating, it was a very romantic and passionate kiss.

How do you know what kind of touch it was?

And I gave my own opinion and viewpoint on how important I see "sex" being to the idea of CloudxAerith vs. CloudxTifa. Wasn't that the question?

You also pointed out what we knew, that neither had a relationship which is what I felt you were trying to get across--the obvious. Actual relationships in the game weren't really a factor.

Your opinion is appreciated, seeing as currently it would have only been me and Hyper going back and forth. Gives us something to further to explore.

And I don't know 100% how their meeting came to be, but I don't find it probable by any means that they are PHYSICALLY in a flower field, Aeris is in a PHYSICAL body and is PHYSICALLY touching Cloud.

And Ghost? Is that a fair example? Patrick's character possessed another body, so in all fairness Demi was being physical with another woman.

The question was how sex pertains to Cloud and Aerith's relationship vs. Cloud and Tifa's relationship, correct? The question was also how CloudxAerith people see that in the light of the possibilities for Cloud and Aerith's love in the future vs. the possibility of Cloud and Tifa's relationship in the future. I commented on how I saw the issue of sex pertaining to Cloud and Aerith's relationship in the future vs. how sex pertained to Cloud and Tifa's relationship in the future.

As far as Ghost, yes I do think it was a fair example because a spirit demonstrated his love for a living being *physically*. Tidus also expressed his love for Yuna *physically* after becoming nothing more than a ghost like image. I pointed out the fact that physical interaction is possible between Cloud and Aerith, which means that we *do not know* what kind of limits their relationship has at this point.

The fact is, it will never, ever be what it could have been were she alive. Aeris is a spirit, and a spirit has no physical body therefore Cloud and Aeris could not possibly have sexual relations. You'd have to bring in other bodies to substitute for Aeris' lacking which would NOT be the same by any means. She would have to possess another living being, temporarily take over a dead body, or become a Succubi.

Physically, there is no longer a way for Cloud and Aeris to be on the same level as Cloud and another girl, whether it be Tifa or a common whore in the Midgar Slums.

An interesting question.

I think the issue of "sex" and the Cloti vs. Clorith perspective comes down to the fact that most Cloti's seem to be more focused on physical aspects of intimacy and generally take a more "realisic" or "pragmatic" attitude towards love, while Clorith's tend to be more drawn to emotional aspects of intimacy and generally have a more "idealistic" or "romantic" view towards love.

In other words, a Cloti enjoys a love story where the love between two characters is more "realistic"... that is, believable in a real world context where people have everyday needs (sex, etc), aren't necessary "pure at heart," and lose lovers (death, divorce, etc) but eventually move on to have new lovers. Thus, they are drawn to a CloudXTifa storyline because the love story is not based on any sort of "fluffy spirituo-romantic mumbo-jumbo" (I'm paraphrasing their thought process) but is instead more tangible (and comes with more padding in the boobs too... ahem). Since many people, both in Western and Japanese society, tend to view sex as being "profane" (as in, opposite of "sacred") a person with a more pragmatic leaning will most likely favor a love story that is more sexual in nature, which CxT (allegedly) is.

On the other hand, Clorith's tend to be drawn to love stories that are more romantic, idealistic, and/or spiritual in the sense that they like the idea of love that transcends the everyday drudgery of life. CloudXAerith appeals to that notion because you have the concept of an "undying love" and "a spiritual connection." It's a "pure" and "true" love, the type that an idealogue/hopeless romantic yearns for. While a person more favorable to a "Cloti" perspective might revel in a love story that gleefully celebrates the sometime less-than-pure nature of love in the real world, a person more favorable to a "Clorith" perspective prefers their love stories to be an "escape" from such hum-drum. Again, because Western and Japanese societies generally see sex as "dirty," and ideologue/hopless romantic would be drawn to a "pure" love story --- a.k.a. a love story where sexuality and sex is downplayed or removed altogether.

Look at Tifa and Aerith's presentation. While Tifa's sexuality is upfront and overly exaggerated, with her short skirt, bare midriff, and gravity-defying megaboobs; Aerith's is hidden and at least nominally "virginal," though we do get the occassional "peek" at her leg now and then. Her dress (literally... dress) is modest, and she herself is presented in a very "spiritual/sacred/angelic" manner.

Hey, I'm a hopeless romantic, I'll admit it ;) :lol: Do you think this is a generally accurate assessment of the difference? Do you think the latter paragraph accurately describes you, fellow Clorith?

Hmm...I see Anastar's point. :lol:
And I think its quite possible. Its too early to say, but if Aeris was able to touch Cloud's arm, maybe she manifested herself in physical form. I think life has many surprises, so it can be like to just expect the unexpected.

Hmm...Sex? I don't think it play a big role in a love relationship. How can anyone be certain? I mean, just having intercourse doesn't always guartee that the person loves you. I think it has to come from the heart and when two person are in love, than that's when its right. If Cloud and Tifa did do it under the Highwind ( which is very doubtful), it'll be more of like a One Night Stand than a romantic love relationship. I just believe there has to be trust and a bond between two romantic lovers, to understand each other and that is when the time is right.

Between Cloud and Aeris, I believe its quite possible. Love can surpass death. There's a lot of thing that is unknown about the LifeStream nor the Ancients. Who knows, maybe there is prior knowledge for Aeris to come back. Maybe after the final final battle, the Planet will grant a wish for Aeris to be rivived or for Cloud to be with her. There just too many mysteries to the Lifestream and the powers of the Cetras that was never answered in FF7. Just too many loopholes.

But why would 'sex' be something that Cloud need to be able to love someone? He doesn't look like the type who would desparately need it and I doubt he is. <_<
You don't always need 'sex' in a relationship to tell someone that you love them dearly. Its not a factor in a relationship to tell that precious person that you love them. There are people that lost their lost ones and remain dear to those precious person for their life. And there's no sex after that. They just remain dear to that precious person that they lost until it is their time.

Hmm...I guess I'm just one of those people who don't believe that 'sex' play a factor in a relationship. :rolleyes: Like I say, you don't need 'sex' to tell that precious person that you love them because they know it in their hearts that they love each other. So when the time is right, then that's when it happen....I suppose.

Love or Lust? Perhaps we are confusing them here.
Sex strengthens a bond (perhaps) only when there's love to begin with. Thus, sex doesn't equate to love. Love doesn't begin with sex either.

In anycase, I don't think Sex is a factor at all in the game. The sexual part is mere speculations by fans ^_^
In the gaming/anime/movies world, we see so many examples of couples loving each other beyond death. I don't see them jumping about, feeling deprived of sex O.o

Like Buhon says, I think this shows the difference between the romantic ideals of CxA fans and CxT fans. CxA being a 'fairytale' and 'unrealistic' is something that comes up a lot during debates, and that's the CxT fans' attitude towards the more 'innocent' romance between them - because they prefer 'real life' romance. Cloud x Tifa's story is something that could more easily happen in real life - two people from the same hometown meeting each other years later, Tifa having seemingly unrequited feelings for Cloud which she's too scared to confess, Cloud never bringing the issue up, a plot twist forcing Tifa to face up to confessing her feelings, and the two of them spending an emotionally charged night together.

Cloud x Aerith's relationship, on the other hand, is one that some people might dismiss as a fantasy - it's not about having a physical relationship any more, it's about love beyond death, about Cloud keeping Aerith in his heart, wishing to see her again, against all odds. It's not the type of romance that you'd find very often in real life, because we are taught to come to terms with death and move on with our lives.

I think that is the case for some CxA fans, yeah. The idea that sex isn't important in a love relationship is one that some CxA fans share - but I don't agree. I think that sex is an important part of any serious relationship, as it's an expression of love, (yes, in casual relationships it can be all about lust, but I wouldn't dismiss sex as just about lust and romance does come into it) it's about taking pleasure in each other, and of course, the romantic idea of two souls becoming one.

Exactly, Hyper. Aerith was the only one who could bring out Cloud's playful side (when he teases her about being in SOLDIER), and the chemistry between them shone through during the time Aerith was in the party. If they ever had a chance to make love, I think sparks would fly. :lol:

True, sex doesn't equal love, but sex can be an expression of that love. It doesn't always have to be about lust.

Sex is indeed a way to express love. But I think people think more of it than what it really is.

People who think too much of sex are generally not as spiritual and mindful of what true love really is. You don't "need" sex in any relationship. In a way, it is merely a form of earthly pleasure and a way to reproduce. Nothing more. Those couples who are truely in love don't think sex is needed at all. Because they are beyond that point, where love is past physical representation and has become more of a spiritual bond. In my opinion, sex is not important at all. It is just something that links us to the usual human emotion of hormonal lust.

To me, true love isn't grounded by the need to experience physical pleasure and I find those who think too highly of having enormously active sex lives to be quite shallow. Not to mention my insanely extreme views against porn, etc. Sex is just simply overrated in the world of today. More and more people are driven by their needs to experience pleasure whether it's with someone they "love" or not. Lust is more common than love (and is mistaken for love) and I am quite disgusted by it.

So I'm quite happy with the fact that there is nothing to do with sex in FFVII. If Cloud wasn't the man he is and he had sex with Tifa even without being in love with her, it would reduce him to a common male who can't control his hormones. I would think so much less of him as well. I'm happy that "love" was more of a theme in the love triangle than lust, even though too many Tifa fans think otherwise thanks to her choice of clothing.

I feel like I'm in a bad after school special. I do think that love is more of a emotional thing than a physical thing. It's based on the way the two feel towards eachother, not how much they want to get in eachothers pants. Ya get what I'm saying? I think in a relationship that the two should love how the person acts, not how big their breasts are or something like that.

I was reading some topics, and I found this one kind of interesting, so I decided to bring it up again.

So as everyone of us (The Cleris's), I've seen the Clotis claim that Cloud and Tifa had "hawt sexxx" in the Highwind scene, also I've seen how many of them take Cloud and Tifa's relationship to a sexual relationship. But what's the truth behind this, Did they really had sex then? Well, this are my reasons to deny it:

1. Even if Cloud had recovered his lost memories in the Lifestream, that didn't took away all the issues, he had within. He was in a very serious state of mind.

2. He had recently lost someone very dear to him, he was still trying to recover from that blow.

3. He was very focused on his upcoming battle with Sephiroth.

4. As it was said before, Cloud is not the type of man that can't control his hormones.

5. Cloud was searching for someone to take out his real feelings, not someone to have sex.

If we check all the things Cloud was going thru, we can clearly see that he wasn't in a state of mind, in wich he could thought of having sex, I don't now if Tifa, but I'm sure that Cloud wasn't. Just check again all the things he was going thru, and you'll understand.

Talking about his relation with Tifa being more "realistic", than his relation with Aerith, I have to say that I totally disagree. Yes, the fact that he knew Tifa from his childhood, and then they met again, and etc, might seem to be the kind of relationship that can occur on real life, but based on what? Past memories? Issues? Sex?
His encounter with Aerith wasn't fantastic, it was just something that happened, just as in real life, then they had the chance to meet each other, and to fall in love, still this is something that happens in real life. But then Aerith died, so that they couldn't build up and actual relationship, but even if Aerith died, he didn't wanted anybody else, but wanted to meet Aerith even if she was dead, so here comed the question: Is this something unrealistic or a fantasy?
Why did he wanted to meet with someone that was already dead, even if there was the possibility for him to get in the Promised land, but even so, wanted to meet with someone that was dead. Is this kind of love something unrealistic? Well, I don't think so. It was normal to Cloud to feel that way, since the only person who take his real feelings, the real him out, was Aerith. No one else, could do it, not even Tifa, even if she stood aside with him when he need her, she wasn't able to take out the real him. Were I'm trying to go, is that Cloud had already found his true love, there were no reasons for him to move on in what romance means. It was up to him to do it, there's no fantasy in this. Yes, many people doesn't keep the person they love in their heart as Cloud did with Aerith, but many of that people never found true love as he did. You can have a million of sex, or romantic partners, but a real love, only one, once you find it, that's it for you.

Now, answering the question, reagrding of Cloud's possibilities of having sex with Aerith, if she was alive. I think that we Cleris's (or at least me) think that, sex is something implicit in their relationship. Sex is something that would have naturally, came up, when they were in the edge of their relationship, like after a long make out, or after a big event, that brought out their feelings. So, in resume, I think that the possibilities of the having sex, if she was alive were very big. Also Aerith liked to flirt a lot with Cloud, so that some of the sex factor is there, not only she loved (and still loves) Cloud for who he is, but I'm sure that she might have been attracted to the blue eyed, blond and strong SOLDIER, as well, as Cloud not only loved (and still loves) Aerith for who she was, but might have been attracted to the green eyed, light brown haired, cute and sexy flower girl, as it is. I'm sure that if they ever had the chance to had sex, Aerith would have been the one who took the initiative, hehe. Maybe they'll have the chance in the Promised Land, who knows? :whistle:

Are you sure of this. Do you think that someone that rapes another, is expressing love? Sex is just something physicall, it's something that can come up in a love relationship, but is not a way to express love.

Sorry, guys...but this issue here makes me angry sometimes. :mad:

*start of rant*

Madame Batolli:

I disagree here. I think it depends on what culture you come from. Again, in many Asian cultures such as mine, for example, we're taught to value the "love transcending death" idea.

Here's something I don't understand. How is loving someone beyond death, keeping someone in your heart, and wishing to see that person again a fantasy? Although seeing a loved one again after he/she has passed away isn't exactly possible...these are real feelings that people have. What's not realistic about it? :mad:

When I think about how shallow and ignorant some Clotis are, it really makes me mad. They don't seem to understand that ideas and morals vary from culture to culture. It's almost even offensive when I hear people say that loving someone after death is a "fantasy". So my culture's ethics and morals are based on a fantasy...while theirs is what? Realistic...?! :mad:

I would definitely argue that sex isn't necessary, and no, this does NOT make me an ignorant Cleris on romance in any way. I know exactly what love, sex, and romance are. Neither do I agree that sex is necessarily an expression of love. Clerith-son has brought up a good example: rape. Sex can represent two souls becoming one to a culture, while it may not mean anything other than a means of reproduction to another culture. The true question is, what do the Japanese hold in higher regards? The ability to have sex with someone or a love that stays true, even after death? They're the ones who made the game, so it's really their answers that matter.

And it doesn't always have to be about love. Love and sex can be associated, but are completely separate. Hence, making a claim that someone loves so and so based on the fact that they had sex, or that someone can't/shouldn't love someone because they can't have sex is pathetic. When I'm talking about Cloud and Aeris' relationship, I'm referring purely to love (which is a feeling)...not sex.

slowerthanaverage:

Thank you, slower... :huggle:
Nicely put...and I agree completely.

PassiveAggressive:

Right right...Cloud and Aeris aren't on the same level as Cloud and Tifa or Cloud and any common whore in the Midgar Slums. They're beyond that hormone/lust level and have reached the ultimate level: true love, where sex isn't everything and isn't necessary.

*end of rant* :angel:

I've got only one thing to say to this: why do they call sex between people who truly love each other "love making"? Because love is what bonds the physical act and the emotions together.

I've done a lot of thinking on the delusional fantasy thing. You know, there are a lot of religions around the world who, one way or another, believe in the afterlife. And when people die, there's always talk of 'meeting them again' in Heaven, Paradise, Nirvana...varying names, but they always revolve around the concept of life after death. And when people do that, fellow believers do not say "Oh, you're living a fantasy" or "be realistic" They encourage it because they also believe in it.
Now in the world of FF7, the Promised Land seems an unattainable dream but Aerith really believed in it...and so did Cloud by the end of the game. He wants to meet her, in a land of supreme happiness, even after her death...how different is that from believing in an afterlife in our world? How different is that from some cultural perspectives that teach the beauty of loving someone beyond death?
When we put it this way, Cloud wanting to meet Aerith doesn't seem like a fantasy anymore.
Yeah, in real life, we can move on with somebody else after the one we loved has died...but many also choose to stay alone for the rest of their lives, keeping the dearly departed in their hearts. I'm not saying one choice should be honored over the other...I'm saying that if someone makes a choice, then it should be respected because it was a decision made from his heart.
And Cloud has chosen to meet Aerith. We don't know what will happen in AC, what Cloud will finally decide. But we do know that at one point in his life, Cloud chose to meet somebody, under near-impossible odds. That's enough to convince me that I am not delusional, that Cloud did love Aerith.

Kusari Yarou:

Exactly, Kusari. Some Clotis forget that, to other cultures, this "love transcending death" idea and wanting to meet someone even after they've passed away isn't "fantasy" at all, but realistic. As I've mentioned, I'm sure it's offensive to these cultures when they hear that their views and morals are considered a "fantasy". Sure, I'll agree that reviving Aeris and having her end up with Cloud is a bit on the fantasy/unrealistic side, but the whole love after death idea is very much realistic...and has nothing to do with someone living in a "fairytale".

Perhaps to the Japanese, Cloud searching for Aeris and loving her beyond death isn't at all a "fantasy", but realistic because it's what they believe in. I just think people should be a bit more considerate when referring to something that's based on cultural beliefs because, honestly...people may get offended.

You're not understanding. Sex between two people who truely love each other is a way to physically express it, otherwise known as "making love". Rape is not equivalent to "making love". It is merely the result of someone who cannot control their hormones on the worst level. Making love and rape are two totally different things.

Sex isn't needed if two people don't want children. I absolutely agree with that. But for those who choose to express their feelings of love through physical actions, sex is indeed one way of expressing. People just blow sex completely out of proportion because of the physical pleasure involved. These idiots (the ones who measure your popularity by your sex life) are the ones trying to get rid of the line between "making love" and plain old casual sex.

But in the end, it all comes down to the single fact that sex exists for the act of reproducing.

I do understand. I know that sex is something that might come up in a love relationship. But what I was trying to show, is that sex, does not defines a love relationship.

Also I think that the word "make love" refering to sex between two people that loves each other, is wrong. See you do not make love by having sex. By having sex you have pleasure, orgasms and etc... Even if you are deeply in love that's what you do when you have sex. But love can be made as well, but with different actions, like caring, supporting, by showing loyalty, but the biggest action that shows love, is to keep the one you love always in your heart.

BTW, returning to Cloud & Aerith's sex possibilities, I was thinking that we were never told that The Cetra saw sex as something sinful, or that they couldn't fall in love beacause all they did was to take care of the Planet. I remembered that Ifalna, felt in love with Dr. Gast, and had a child (Aerith), with him (making it obvious that they had sex). This shows us that the Cetra were able to fall in love, and that they might had sex with the one they loved respectively. Also we were never told that the Promised Land was a place were love relationships or sex were forbidden, we were just told that it was a place of supreme happiness. That made me think, that there are possibilities for Cloud & Aerith to have sex in the Promised Land. Maybe Cloud & Aerith will continue their lifes there. :cleris:

That's true and nowadays there are many whom have seen it the wrong way. Other than that, they confuse love and lust. Sex is supposed to be something pure, but I guess modern times have proved otherwise by having it before marriage or by force.

I guess that could work. It is a great possiblity that they may find that happiness in the Promised Land as they love each other :).

:cleris:

Forgive me for wanting to put the characters into a real life pov.

If Cloud and Aeris did have sex, I think that they would like to get to know each other a bit more first. Many CloTi's say that Tifa is right for Cloud because she's living. I don't think so. Personally, I don't think that she was even right for Cloud.

When and if (huge if really) Cloud did go out with Tifa, I don't think that it would last as long as most CloTi put. Yes I know that Aeris can be annoying (forgive me) at times, but she always makes it up later on. The only thing that she couldn't make up was never telling Cloud how she felt.

Tifa is the kind of person that would snap at someone for looking at Cloud in a wrong way. (Thats just what I think) If I went up to Cloud to ask him where he got his shoes because I want to get a pair for my brother, I bet Tifa would snap at me. Cloud would get tired of it and leave her before anything like that would happen.

I see your point and I think Tifa is overprotective over someone whom isn't even her boyfriend. But the Clotis make it like sex is love and if they do it (which I hope not as I'll drop dead) they are right for each other.

Give me a break, that totally excludes the pureness of the process as like I said before, sex is supposed to be done when you are REALLY in LOVE not because that the one you love is dead and you must do it with a second best thing <_< .

I seriously think that none of the Clotis ever look at this situation with a religious eye :angry: .



:cleris:

If Cloud wants sex, then why does it have to be with Tifa? The Cloti's act as if Tifa is the only woman alive on the Planet. They seem to think that Tifa's the only woman around that Cloud is able to have sex with, and therefore she's the only woman that Cloud can possibly love. Both assumptions are ridiculous.

Sex can be an expression of love, but sex can also happen without love. If two people are in love, then it will often lead to sex. If a guy does not love a girl and does not want to get involved in a relationship with her, then he'll look for sex elsewhere.

I really doubt that the creators of FFVII are basing who Cloud loves on who he is able to have sex with, so why are the Cloti's? It's not like all people who lose a loved one decide to move on to a new relationship. Cloud not moving on is just as realistic as Cloud moving on because some people do and some people don't.

I find it incredibly unrealistic that Cloud would move on to be in a relationship with Tifa just because he wants to have sex when there's so many other places he could get it if he wants it. IF Cloud moved on, it would be because he loves Tifa... not because he can have sex with her.

Though considering that they're Cloud/Tifa fans, they do think he is doing it with someone he is really in love with and wouldn't really see it as just "doing it with second best".

Where did this "Tifa would fly off the handle" thing come from? She did get a bit jealous in the game, but I don't remember her ever expressing it in an agressive way. Most of the time she mainly introverted about it IMO.

But we've heard many Cloti's say that one reason Cloud would fall in love with Tifa is because he can still have sex with her. I think Enima was commenting on that perspective.

I don't know that Tifa would fly off the handle, either, but Tifa was pretty expressive about her jealousy both in the Shinra jail and at the Temple of Ancients. IF she and Cloud were actually in a relationship, it's *possible* that she'd carry it too far... who knows?

Hey, Wilhelm... would you translate something for us in the thread on The Final FMV, please?

Since everyone has pretty much wrote down what I wanted to write down, I just want to add that... even if Tifa and Cloud did have sex in the Highwind scene (and we all know that they didn't), why should that matter? The question is really who Cloud loves. The Clotis focus so much on the physicality. Anyone can have sex with anyone without love. And it's nothing but physicality. So yeah, this is sorta off topic, but I just wanted to add that...

anyways, I do admit that the idea that Aerith and Cloud are separated physically saddens me... I also want them to express their love by means of sex. Anyway, I like this topic, cos it's true that we hardly talk about this.

I've said enough, so I'll shut up. heh... this is coming from a A/C fan who hardly posts... great posts you guys. I love my fellow Aerith/Cloud fans. *hugs everyone*

I really don't see the point. They just didn't had sex. This is something a perv Cloti made up, and that others pervs Clotis like to belive.

The conversation Cloud and Tifa had in the Highwind, was everything but romantic, they didn't showed any kind of feelings toward each other (at least Cloud not), so the idea of them having sex after that. Also I don't think that Cloud would be a real SOB, so that after he supposedly had sex with Tifa, and after he defeated Sephiroth he said that he wanted to meet Aerith in the Promised Land. And after that Tifa lowered her head, showing that she accepted that Cloud only loved Aerith, if Clotis can't understand that, that's their problem for being that superficial.

So, my final statement on this is: They NEVER had sex. PERIOD

Clerith-son

We agree with you that Cloud and Tifa didn't have sex under the Highwind... that wasn't really the question being discussed. Hazegeren just made the point that IF sex had happened under the Highwind, it wouldn't necessarily mean that Cloud's in love. As you pointed out, Cloud and Tifa's conversation under the Highwind was not romantic, and Cloud never touched Tifa. IF it was supposed to be a romantic scene that showed Cloud's love for Tifa, there would have been an FMV like the Moonlight Lake scene in FFX. The only way to think that sex actually happened under the Highwind is to imagine it.

There's also more than one version to the scene. The other version ends with Cloud suggesting that they get some sleep because they have a big battle tomorrow. Much of their conversation is as optional as who you go out on a Date with at the Gold Saucer.

The question in this thread was really how sex (or the lack of it) would influence Cloud's continued love for Aerith? How big a role would sex play in Cloud's choice to move on or not to move on?

If you ask me, I don't think it would play that big a role as sex doesn't neccessarily equall to love, right? :ermm:

It may not influence his continued love towards her, as technically he is still looking for her and himself at the same time. But then again , I may be wrong. :unsure:


:cleris:

Yes, I know the point of this thread (If you go back on this thread, I have some posts, giving my thoughts about it). The point I said I didn't understood, was the Cloti point, of Cloud having sex with Tifa in the Highwind. That just totally ruins Cloud character, I really pitty those poor Clotis.

Sex, wasn't a primal factor in Cloud & Aerith's relationship (I'm not saying that it's not an important factor), I think that there are deeper factors in it, such as trust, loyalty, friendship, true love, etc...

But if we're talking about the Cloti idea of Cloud having sex with Tifa under the Highwind, I think it would have shown that Cloud would have sort of moved on (Not saying that his love towards Aerith would have dissaperaed, but just that he took his second choice, Tifa), but at the same time, that would have devastated his character. Also, as I've already said before, I don't think that Cloud is such an SOB, that has sex with Tifa, and after that, he says in her face, that he wants to meet Aerith in the Promised Land.

Okay, I got the impression that you thought we were talking about the Cloti's claims. Sorry! :blush: But I have to agree with you that sex under the Highwind is an idea that really ruins Cloud's character, as well as the meaning of the story.

Was sex ever a primal factor in other Final Fantasies? I don't believe that sex was portrayed between Squall and Rinoa, Tidus and Yuna, or Zidane and Garnet/Dagger. It was suggested in Xenogears, but it was also portrayed clearly enough so that there wasn't any guesswork. If Square wanted us to think that sex and/or cuddling had happened between Cloud and Tifa under the Highwind, they would have made it obvious. They sure didn't keep us guessing about a romance between Squall and Rinoa or Tidus and Yuna, so if they wanted us to know that Cloud was in love with Tifa, they would have made it every bit as clear.

I also think you're right that Cloud would have been a real jerk to talk about meeting Aerith in the Promised Land after having sex with Tifa. For that matter, he'd be an even bigger jerk for ditching Tifa after FFVII to live a solitary life if he slept with her under the Highwind.

Sex can just be sex. That's just how it is if you put it on Cloud and Tifa's situation (I'm not saying they really did it... it's just a what-if).
But I don't think Cloud would be the type of person to just risk something out of lust even though he's a guy. He seems too decent in my opinion to be exchanging sadness for a temporary high like having sex with Tifa or whoever girl he could pick up from the streets. <_<'

In fact, I think he's still a virgin! :lol:

me too :woot: Besides it isn't very Asian-like culture to show their love through sex. Ish. In the other FF's, it's more like compassionate, I-care-a-lot-for-you-and-want-to-protect-you-i-ask-for-nothing-in-return, but { is that how CloTi is the way the CloTis think of it as }?!! No!! CloTi's idea of love is big boobs and sex. How lovely.

Random female Cloti: Sex sex SEX SEX SEX :fangirl: Cloud hed sex wit Tifa Omiiigawd;squee! So romantic! Thyre luv ish so beautiful!!!!!!! OMG!!!
Random male CloTi: I like CloTi coz Cloud is kewl and Tifa has big boobs.

So far as I know, ONLY CloTi is the 'FF couple' that had possible sex. What happened to the others? XD. And I don't think Square would make a couple have sex, unless the characters said an "I love you" to each other or made the couple an official one first. Like Wakka/Lulu, they had sex. OBVIOUSLY, since they got a baby. If Tifa had a baby, I might actually believe the CloTis, but nothing happened. Thank you =)

I don't think sex plays a big role in Cloud and Aeris love. A lot of Cloti's(not all, but a lot) think they need to have/be able to have greats sex to form a great relationship, but that isn't always true. In fact, a lot of times if you have sex too early in a relationship, it because strained and ends up breaking up. I don't think Cloud and Aeris would have needed sex to prove how much the love each other. They would have done it eventually, sure. But they didn'y neccesarily need it. To me Cloud and Aeris both seem like the virgin types. :cleris: