This Cloti argument aggravates me more than any other. Everything the lifestream scene the highwind scene, everything this one takes the top of the podium.

I just can't stand hearing CLotis spout this stuff when it so obviously false and contradictory. That Aeris loved Zack not Cloud because she never met the real Cloud...i feel like shooting myself when i hear that, it actually hurts my ears to hear it.

So i'll post this old old old essay by a gal named Carlatta back at GameFAQ's on why it isn't so.

Cloud Did Not Become Zack by Carlatta

I never did understand the argument about Cloud in disk one not being the "real" Cloud and that during this time period he was more or less Zack.

Many Cloud x Tifa supporters use the fact that Cloud had his past mixed up all the while he knew Aeris and because of this Cloud was not allowed to be true to himself. The funny thing about this argument however is that memories and character are two very different aspects of a person. Character makes a person who they are and Cloud confused his memories with Zack, not his character. Proof? Zack was more of an outgoing and caring character when you see him in the few scenes of Nibelheim and him and Cloud's escape to Midgar. Zack, for example, directly gave friendship to Cloud in which Zack talked to him, kind of joked with him, and helped him when Cloud was hurt (Escape from Midgar Sequence). Cloud's character is one completely different from that shown by Zack.

Cloud, when the player first meets him in the beginning of the game, is perceived as a cold, antisocial, and uncaring person who only wants money and worries about the well-being of no one. Zack also is described by Aeris in Gongaga as being and I quote her in saying, "he loved women, a real ladies man." Cloud seems to be particularly uninterested in this specific area which can be shown from his less than enthusiastic responses to his mother's discussion concerning him getting a girlfriend in his flashback of the visit he had with her in Nibelheim. As shown in the truck on the way to Nibeheim in the real flashback sequence, Zack was talkative and caring asking how everyone was doing and if Cloud was alright with his motion sickness. Cloud in the beginning of the game basically only says what needs to be and holds a overall, "I don't care" and "It's not my problem" attitude.

If ANYTHING what only can be seen is that Cloud and Zack's personalities are almost completely contrasting. Cloud and Zack's personalities are in no way anything alike when compared with what information is given to us in the game. So then it can be concluded that the only thing that Cloud has inherited from Zack was some of his memories and gestures as well. So then the real reason most see Cloud before he "finds himself" in the lifestream as the "fake" Cloud is because his memories are mixed up and confused. This in itself brings up an interesting topic, that being does the past really make us who we are? This can be answered more by opinions but the answer to this question doesn't quite address the real issue. This issue being that just because Cloud did not know the truth about a certain part of his past does that mean he was truly incapable of loving another. Remember Cloud only had a certain part of his past mixed up, that being the Nibelheim experience five years ago and his involvement in SOLDIER. He remembered he was born in Nibelheim and not Gongaga like Zack was and Cloud also remembered bits and pieces of some conversations he had with his mother in Nibelheim.

Because of this I fail to see how Cloud's past in SOLDIER and the Nibelheim incident five years ago can affect his relationship that he had with Aeris. This was the past which had nothing to do with Aeris, she was the present. Tifa however was a part of this mixed up past. If that in itself holds a deeper meaning who's to say, that's more of the gamer's opinion.

I feel strongly against this issue... yep I do. A Cloud/Tifa supporter once told me that Aerith didn't meet the real Cloud because she lurved Zack before and saw only Zackiness in Cloud and therefore had not loved any Cloud. Argument sounds confusing? Well, it is since it's very wrong.

I'm not even sure if Aerith loved Zack at all! I think it's just a childhood thing that doesn't mean so much. I'm sure Aerith said it herself at some point in the game...

Carlatta's essay explains a lot... it made me feel better. :D

Carlatta's essay makes very good points. Cloud actually remembers quite a bit accurately. It's only the Nibelheim Incident that he has confusions about. Cloud realizes that the people in Nibelheim weren't residents of the town as he was growing up. He remembers part of the conversation that he had with his mother. He knows that he was born in Nibelheim, not Gongaga. He recognizes President Shinra in the Mako reactor. He's capable of remembering a lengthy letter word per word that he read in Tifa's room, finding orthopedic underwear in Tifa's drawer, and the song he played on Tifa's piano. He remembers the journey to the Mt. Nibel reactor and what Sephiroth said at the Mako fountain in the mountains outside Nibelheim. Cloud recognizes Tifa in the Sector 7 train station after escaping from the Nibelheim lab and accurately remembers that it's been five years since he saw Tifa last, even though Tifa thought it had been seven years. Cloud recognized Jenova in Hojo's laboratory, too. Therefore, Cloud has only partially confused certain memories with Zack. There is a big difference between having partial amnesia of certain events where you've had a traumatic experience and actually becoming someone else.

In the Seventh Heaven at the beginning of the story, Cloud actually acts very much like the child he was in Nibelheim. When Barret questions his continued alliance with Shinra, Cloud stands up tall and gets in his face as if challenging him to a fight. That's exactly how Cloud acted as a child in Nibelheim. Tifa says so in the Seventh Heaven:

Tifa "Hmm. You've grown up." "When you were little you used to get into fights at the drop of a hat."

Cloud also says the same thing in the Lifestream Event:
"Ever since then, I felt Tifa blamed me..." "I got out of control... I'd get into fights not even caring who it was."

So when Cloud tries to pick a fight with Barret, he's acting the same way as he did as a child in Nibelheim... not like the friendly, congenial Zack.

*Reads what Anastar said* EXACTLY. He always acted the same, until he met Aeris. And she opened him up. Even THEN he wasn't just like Zack! Besides, she says HERSELF, that at first she was attracted to Cloud because he moved like Zack, but then "But something's different...things are different". This could be her saying "so I don't love you anymore" but, she treats Cloud the exact same way. So I don't know HOW CloTi's can say that when Aeris HERSELF says that!
Plus, if the question is who Cloud loves, then why does it matter why Aeris is attracted to him? I've never understood why they use this as an argument. Did Rinoa know Squall? No. She didn't get to fully understand him until the end of the game.

The only reasen Aerith took interest in Cloud is because he looked like Zack. She clearly wants to "meet" him, but never gets the chance to. She was interested, but wasn't exactl in love.

EDIT: Just hiding this Cloti garbage from our members. :rolleyes:

Looked like Zack?*coughs* Looks like someone is color blind. Last I checked Cloud and Zack looked like opposites. Cloud had light colored hair and light blue eyes, while Zack's hair was long and black, and his eyes were a darker blue than Cloud's. I'm not gonna respond any more cuz it'd be redundant.

So, Aerith didn't love Cloud, eh, SIJ? That isn't what S-E says. "She loved Cloud". This is a direct quote from the translation of a scan from Advent Children. You can see this scan here. Take a look and eat your heart out... :ph43r:

I hate the Zack arguement with a passion. It's been disproven so many times already. It's just unfounded, rubbishy horsecrap, and it can bury itself very deep under the ground where it will never come out and reap its false, unfounded nonsense ever again. :D

Tou'che!! (However it's spelt... lol)

But stupid gits (and by "stupid gits" I mean Clotis) STILL use that as "evidence." JC, at least we have legit evidence, whereas all they can do is grasp at straws. I feel like we're the Squinoa fans, and they are a bunch of witless Squistis fans talking about how Rinoa never met the real Squall, and Squall and Quistis belong together because they've known each other since childhood, and Quistis loves Squall so very much!!! That's what it is, really, the love triangles are identical.

I couldn't have said it better. You really have a way with words. :lol:

Mmm, I just wonder where and how this rumour even got started. I doesn't really make any sense at all if you've completed FFVII several times like I have.

Touchè without the ' and with è. ^_^

As far as I know... :rolleyes:

Ye know where that got started? There's a Plot Analysis in the FFVII FAQs section at GameFaqs where the author states the theory that Cloud thought he was Zack. It's a very good plot analysis in many respects, and it's been widely read and cited... so the idea spread.

Unfortunately, though, many people take that Plot Analysis as canon evidence of the game when it was only the opinion of the author. The author freely admits that it's only her opinion. Yet, the Cloti's like to quote that Plot Analysis as canon proof of the game.

BTW, the author of that Plot Analysis is a Cloti. ;)

What the Cloti's don't acknowledge about that Plot Analysis is that the author does admit that CloudxAerith is a possible interpretation of the game. ;)

Ooh! I wasn't expecting anyone to actually know that, you know how it is with rumours and theories, they just come up out nowhere. But thank you, I need to check that out. :)

Mmm, anything that is not official is just a single opinion among many others. But I admit that sometimes it is difficult to remember that if it's a well written opinion. Some people are very talented in making almost anything sound like a solid fact. ^_^

LOL! The only reason I know is that this Plot Analysis has been cited to me as "proof" that Cloud thought he was Zack in several debates with the Cloti's. <_<

Some other Cleris people and I were actually thinking of writing a different Plot Analysis to submit to Gamefaqs before AC was announced. After the announcement of AC, though, we hoped that the movie would explain better than any Plot Analysis we could possibly write. :rolleyes:

Exactly... and too many people forget that.

Wooooow! Aly knows EVERYTHING! I swear she works for Square and just hasn't told anybody yet ;)
If AC doesn't explain well enough, I think you SHOULD write a Plot Anyalisisisis...sis....thing.

There's be no point in writing one for FF7 Aly, CJayC doesn't take anything new on FF7 anymore, people write too much on it.

You might be able to get away with it after AC though, by using the movie to wrap everything else up as well. I'll look into it.

We canned the idea after the announcement of AC, Raist. There was no point in doing it any more. Since the plot is supposed to be wrapped up in DC, however, we may want to wait until after the release of DC to do a plot analysis. We'll have to see how much the Compilation answers.