When Aerith left Cloud in the Sleeping Forest, do you think she knew that she was going to die?

I'm not sure that she knew in the Sleeping Forest, because I'm not sure that she knew everything about the use of the white materia at that time. She first told Cloud that the white materia did nothing - so she obviously knew nothing about the use of it at the beginning of the story. However, she was speaking to the spirits of the Cetra at the Temple of Ancients and knew somehow that she was capable of stopping Meteor. I can only think that the spirits at the Temple of Ancients let her know that much.

Did she ever learn that she had to die, though? Bugenhagen learned about it from the consciousness of the Ancients in the Forgotten City when Cloud's party took him there in Disk Two, so it's very possible that Aerith learned it there, too. She didn't try to run when she saw Sephiroth descending on her, either. From that, I would guess that she most likely knew.

What do you think?

I don't think she knew.
Tifa said as much, and I must admit that Tifa knows Aeris better than I do. Besides, why would Square have Tifa say that if it weren't true?

Sure, it's plausible that she knew, I just don't think she DID

I dunno about you, but if I were smiling up at Cloud I would notice a fella swooping down from behind me either. But then, I lack eyes in the back of my head...alas

True... but Aerith looked up and saw Sephiroth coming down. She may have been frozen in fear, or it may have been too fast (after all, we got a slow motion view of it). However, Aerith did see Sephiroth coming down.

*Cocks brow* I don't think so, he was coming down from BEHIND her and she was looking at Cloud. When did she ever see him?

I just replayed it to make sure. I could have sworn that I remembered her looking up as Sephiroth started to come down on her... but you're right. She doesn't look up. Good call, Sephie.

We also have to remember that it happened very fast. The motion slows down to get a close up view of Sephy as he descends - but in reality, it happened very quickly.

I'm gonna go with Sefie - I don't think that Aeris knew. She always looked to the future and thought with optimism but she was never naive; while she was definitely aware of the danger she was putting herself in, the risk she was running and that it was possible that she could die, I've always thought that she believed she'd be alright anyway. She would've done anything to stop Meteor, so naturally she'd be willing to give her life for the Planet if she had to, but I dont believe she thought it'd ever come to that, but she was ready for it if it did. But I think she honestly believed that she could come back when it was all over, that everything would be okay and that they'd all look back on the adventure and laugh one day. I think Tifa's observation about Aeris was dead-on: she always looked to the future more than any of them.

About the White Materia - it's at the Temple of the Ancients that she finds out what it really does and she chooses to bear the responsibility alone, but I still think that she has no idea of what's going to happen. In Cloud's dream, I think she's being totally sincere when she reassures him that she's alright and when she promises to come back when it's all over.

But then again, if she did have to die in order to summon Holy, while I don't think she knew the last time she spoke to Cloud, I think the Planet would've let her know somehow. I highly doubt that the Planet would let her face her death unknowing. But seeing as I still kind-of don't believe that Holy required Aeris' death and that the tragedy could've been avoided, then there's no way the Planet could've predicted it. I can't imagine the Planet leading her to her death. But it's very plausible that she knew (it can't really be proven either way so it's all down to opinion), and I think that if she found out, it must've been at the City of the Ancients. And even if she did know, I still think that even while she was praying and preparing herself, she'd still hope against hope that something else would happen at the last minute, that the Planet would show her another way. It'd be just in her nature to think like that.

But even though it's possible that she knew, I don't think she did. Just before she dies, her smile is a happy, hopeful smile. She's positively glowing with happiness and peace, rather than acceptance. She doesn't look brave or resigned or relieved to see Cloud one last time, just really happy to see him. I think she was probably imagining a safe future for the Planet and for everyone she loved right then, a future she would get to take a part in. It just never seemed to me like a smile that said goodbye, but a smile that was looking forwards towards the future.

I don't think she knew that Sephiroth was there either. And you're right in emphasising how quickly it all happened, Anastar. A few split seconds was all it took. Neither Cloud or Aeris had any time to react 'till it was all over.

When she dies, the look on her face is heartbreaking - total shock and disbelief. So tragic...

I actually used to believe the same thing - that she didn't know and that she didn't have to die for Holy to work - until Vilaeth clarified the Japanese script for us at AC.net. There's several things that suggest she didn't have to die for Holy to work.

1) Bugenhagen said that Holy wouldn't appear until a soul reached the Planet. However, Holy had appeared before Cloud's party freed Aerith's spirit from Sephiroth's control. When Cloud's party falls into the Northern Crater after the defeat of Jenova Synthesis, he sees Holy. Sephiroth was blocking Holy, too, along with Aerith's spirit. So how could Holy be there if it wouldn't appear until Aerith's spirit reached the Planet?

2) Why would Sephiroth wait for Aerith to bond the white materia to mankind and summon Holy before he killed her? When Cloud woke in the night, he said that Aerith was there... but he also said that Sephiroth was there, too. That means that Sephiroth had the chance to kill her before Cloud and the others got there. Why wait, unless Sephiroth intended it as a personal injury to Cloud?

Plus, the NA script has Bugenhagen saying that a soul had to reach the Planet for Holy to work, which can also mean that the Planet had to hear the voice of someone asking it. (Which is the way I always took it) However, Vilaeth said that the phrase "a soul has to reach the Planet" was actually phrased the same way as "a spirit has to return to the Planet" in the Japanese. It was just translated differently, for some reason.

I also don't think that the Planet would let someone go to their death unknowingly. If Aerith learned about it in the Forgotten City from the consciousness of the Ancients, then I don't think they would withhold that information from her, either. However, I think Aerith would have gone ahead with it even if she knew. Yuna was ready to do the same thing for Spira (until she learned the truth), and I think Aerith would have done the same thing. If it was for the good of Cloud and the others whom Aerith loved as well as for the good of the Planet, I think she would have sacrificed herself willingly if she saw no other way to do it.

I can see where Aerith would *hope* that her death could be avoided, but if it was necessary, I think she would do it willingly.

Hmm....well, I'm still gonna stand by I don't think that she did know. I think that even if she DID, she woulda gone willingly, but I just don't think she did

Well, Cloud said that he thought she knew she was going to die, that's when Tifa says that she thought that Aerith didn't know. Anyway, just cause Square made a character say something doesn't mean its always right. Especially since there was Cloud who thought otherwise. It probably just opened it for us to think however we wanted.
Anyway, I thought she didn't know exactly, because in the sleeping forest, she said that she could feel the planet guiding her, but nothing more then that. Maybe she knew once she got there though..but in the end, it did go according to Aerith plan (or at least, she did win over Meteor). Aerith's death may have been necesary. It may not be to summon Holy, but since Holy had 'opposite effect', she was needed to guide the lifestream to block Meteor anyway..Could someone else have done it? who knows..it was just more significant for her to do it. Besides, I think her main reason of death is to portray the value of life, and the feeling of loosing one dear to you, like Sakaguchi wanted to show, etc etc..

I dont think she knew she was going to die, but I don't think she was expecting to live either. I think she was just awaiting the future, and having confidence that she would return "when it was all over." Well, I don't know about you, but since ffVII was so open ended, I don't think it's all over quite yet. See Sephiroth come from behind her? First, she was distracted by Cloud, her true love, and second, she might have expectd something to happen to her. She knew she had to go and do this on her own, and she knew that Sephiroth would do anything in his power to stop her. I believe she accepted that she may die, and wasn't even going to try and alter her fate. Aerith was brave, and accepted death as a part of life. As the last remaning cetra, she did her duty.

Yep! Couldn't have said it better myself. :D

Anyway, it's the "when it's all over" part that makes me shiver. It kind of sounds like that she knew that something big's gonna happen to her soon... maybe she can't put a finger on it, but she definitely felt it.

Woman's intuition? Or maybe the Planet knew that she was going to go soon, and it told her in one way or another? I don't know. :rolleyes:

Plot holes. There's more than one.

I don't think she knew initially, but perhaps as her travel to the City continued and began the prayer, seriously deliberated on the issue, I think in the end she came to the conclusion that she wouldn't live much longer. Also, even though she looked to the future, that doesn't mean she didn't know she was to die at all. She could have told Cloud she'd see him when it was all over to reassure him she'd be all right, even though she knew better. It was to set him at ease so he didn't stress out trying to save her. It just adds another point to her heroic status.

Or maybe she knows of a way to return when it's all over, because remember, it's not over yet is it? *points to Advent Children* :P

I think she knew. I think she learnt about it and didn't want Cloud to see her die but being the stubborn....*ahem* blonde that he is he followed her and saw her die... T_T

I want to believe in her words "i'll come back when it's all over" because I believe it isn't over yet. Although I doubt they will revive her she has come back in visions to Cloud, who knows what Square is thinking! :o

Ah, but Advent Children was unheard of when the original game was made, and the script gave her that line. :P

There seems to me to be a slight fallacy in Vilaeth's reasoning if he/she's suggesting that "a spirit has to return to the Planet" is supposed to be the correct translation. If the phrases "a soul has to reach the Planet" and "a spirit has to return to the Planet" in English correspond to one single phrase in Japanese that can encompass both ideas, then EITHER translation from Japanese to English is equally valid. Thus, unless there's something else in the game or scripts that say specifically that a dead person's soul must return to the Lifestream for holy to work, we cannot conclusively say that the phrase translated to "a spirit has to return to the Planet" is necessarily the "correct" translation.

Besides, if holy could only be activated by the soul of a Cetra returning to the planet, why the heck would Sephiroth kill Aerith after she prayed for holy??? If she had already finished her prayer, wouldn't it the be in Seph's best interest for her to NOT die?

So, unless there's other evidence out there, I'm not convinced that Aerith HAD to die in order for holy to be summoned; her soul was able to "reach" the planet by praying for holy, but unfortunately she got caught off guard by Sephiroth in the process. So, I'm also gonna agree with Sefie, Hyper, Passive and everyone else and say that Aerith did not think that her death was inevitable, though she was willing to risk her life for the sake of the planet.

That's a very good point Onigiri. Perhaps Square wanted to leave that interpretation open to the player... That would explain some of the ambiguity.

What Vilaeth told me was the same words in Japanese that were translated as "return to the Planet" in the rest of the script were used again in Bugenhagen's quote. Perhaps Wilhelm can clarify for us.

I agree that there are many things to contradict it, however. That's why I never believed it was necessary for her to die before I heard that from Vilaeth. However, I think the bit about Sephiroth waiting to kill her can be explained. If he waited for Cloud to be there, then it was most likely revenge that motivated Sephiroth - revenge for Cloud stabbing him through the stomach and throwing him into the Lifestream at the Nibelheim reactor when he didn't even have Jenova cells in him. Killing the woman Cloud loved right in front of him and trying to make Cloud kill her would be a great revenge for Sephiroth, along with forcing Cloud to give him the black materia at the Reunion. Sephiroth clearly found it easy enough to block Holy, anyway.

However, I don't think Square made it absolutely clear... so as you say, it may have been left open to the player. From all that's been said here, it can easily be argued either way. Whether or not Aerith knew she was going to die, she was tremendously brave to face Sephiroth on her own.

I see what you mean... do you remeber where in the script the phrase was actually translated as "return to the planet" instead of Buggenhaggen's "reach the planet"? Just curious *waits for Wilhelm*

After the destruction of Sector 7 when Cloud's party goes to Elmyra's house:
Elmyra "She told me she escaped form some sort of research laboratory
somewhere. And that her mother had already returned to the planet, so she
wasn't lonely... and many other things."
(We are back at the living room, in the present.)
Barret "Returned to the planet?"

Elmyra "Aerith just blurted that out all of a sudden. When I asked her if something had happened..."
Aerith "Someone dear to you has just died." "His spirit was coming to see you, but he already returned to the planet."

In Bugenhagen's lab after Cloud's party gets to Cosmo Canyon:
Bugenhagen "Ho Ho Hoooo. Yes, it is something, isn't it?" "Well, let's get to the subject." "Eventually... all humans die. What happens to them after they die?" "The body decomposes, and returns to the Planet. That much everyone knows. What about their consciousness, their hearts and their souls?" "The soul too returns to the Planet." "And not only those of humans, but everything on this Planet. In fact, all living things in the universe, are the same."
(He raises his arms)
Bugenhagen "The spirits that return to the Planet, merge with one another and roam the Planet." "They roam, converge, and divide, becoming a swell, called the 'Lifestream'." "Lifestream.... In other words, a path of energy of the souls roaming the Planet."

In Disk Two, on board the Highwind:
Barret "And Aerith... she's dead." "Guess she turned into spiritual energy and returned to the planet, huh?" "But even if she did, there's no way we'll meet her again..."

In Disk Two, on board the Highwind as they approach the Northern Crater:
Cloud "Let's all go together." "Memories of Aerith......" "Although she should've returned to the planet by now, something stopped her and now she's stuck......"

That's just a few of the places it was used. *waits for Wilhelm, too* :rolleyes:

Hm, this quote actually makes me wonder even more about Holy requiring her death...if her spirit is trapped and can't return to the Planet (perhaps her apperance to Cloud at the end of the game shows her soul being released and then returning to the Planet), then how could she have made Holy's summoning possible? If she hasn't returned to the Planet until the end of the game, then something else (her prayer, her communication with the Planet) must've been needed to summon Holy, rather than her death. ::ponders::

::waiting for Wilhelm too:: :rolleyes:

Very well said, Anastar! ^_^

im the only one wo think aeris knew she was going to die??

she knew it, that is why her dead is so tragic...

she says goodbye to cloud in the sleeping forest because she knew it would be her last googbye...she sais: cloud, take care of yourself...and then: i will be back when its all over

she knew it but she didnt run....

she was praying..she opened her eyes and saw cloud....she smiles because he had came....he had came only for her....

in advent children when aeris is talking with cloud in the flowerfield she said:

cloud....i never blame you for anything..YOU CAME FOR ME....AND THATS IS ALl it matter


aeris sais this because cloud came for her in ff7...he come to see her...even if she died...

:unsure:

Hmmm... well, I guess I'm convinced. That would explain Aerith's hesitation to say something when everyone's at the Haunted Inn (or whatever the heck it's called) in the Gold Saucer, and the whole "Sephiroth is blocking Aerith's spirit" things... but of course, doesn't explain the "I'll come back when it's all over" statement, among others. Gaah...

That's another question for Wilhelm. Was the phrase "I'll be back when it's all over" translated correctly? The direct translation of the Japanese script at RP Gamer translated it differently. Also, when Wilhelm was looking at the passages in FFVII Dismantled for us, Aerith tells Cloud, "I'll never forget you" as she leaves him in the Sleeping Forest.

IF she knew, however, I don't think she knew until she got to the Forgotten City. Something she says in the Sleeping Forest makes it sound as if she hadn't learned everything yet:

Aerith "It's only a matter of time before Sephiroth uses Meteor." "That's why I'm going to protect it. Only a survivor of the Cetra, like me, can do it."
(She turns and walks a distance into the forest. She turns back to face Cloud.)
Aerith "The secret is just up here."
(She shakes her head.)
Aerith "At least it should be. ...I feel it. It feels like I'm being led by something."

The last two lines sound to me as if she doesn't know everything about what she has to do yet. The consciousness of the Ancients told Bugenhagen about the use of the white materia in the Forgotten City, so Aerith could have learned about it the same way.

That's the way I understood her smile, too... that she was smiling for Cloud because he had come for her.

I agree - why would Cloud see Holy when he dropped down into the Northern Crater after defeating Jenova Synthesis if it hadn't already been summoned? If Sephiroth was blocking Aerith's spirit from returning to the Planet, then why was Holy already there? Remember that Cloud says this before Aerith's spirit was released from Sephiroth's control so that her spirit could return to the Planet:

Li......ght......
A light........
Is this.......
Is this light...... Holy?

How could Cloud see Holy if it hadn't already been summoned? Cloud says this before Aerith's spirit returns to the Planet. :unsure: Cloud also says that Sephiroth was blocking Holy (along with Aerith's spirit). How could Sephiroth block Holy if it hadn't already appeared?

I'd forgotten all about that! Let me look at what she says...

Aeris: ...You know...... I think Hojo did something to those men in the Black Capes. But I don't know what it has to do with Sephiroth though... That's why I think we should just go after Sephiroth himself.
Barret: Yeah, me too! It's all just too damn confusin'.
Aeris: And... I'm sorry, forget it! I think I'm tired, I'm going to bed now. (she runs upstairs)

I wonder what she hesitates to mention? It looks like it has to be something about the White Materia and Holy. I think that perhaps she's trying to say that she has a way to stop him. I'm not so sure about that, though. At the Sector Five Church she doesn't seem to know anything about what it does, which means she would've had to have found out at some point on the road, but before reaching the Temple of the Ancients. And I'm not really sure what to make of that. Perhaps in Cosmo Canyon...?

Perhaps it isn't even as complicated as that - it could just be that with the group making all this fuss about the Black Materia, she's come to think that there's a link between it and her own materia. After all, hers is white - it suggests that it's the opposite, and she knows it's not the same as normal pieces of materia. So it could just be that she's noticed a connection between the Black Materia and the materia orb that she has, but she's hesitant to talk about it because she isn't sure what exactly that link is, or what its existence means (and then she finds out at the Temple). This seems a little more likely to me, personally.

What does everyone else think? :rolleyes:

I'm with you on this. :D Cloud saw Holy after the Jenova Synthesis battle, and again just before the battle with Sephiroth.

Cloud: Ugh... ugh... ...there... It's there...
Tifa: Cloud...?
Cloud: ...Holy... Holy... is there... The Holy is shining...... Aeris's prayer is shining......!

My thoughts on this are that seeing Holy pushes the group (especially Cloud) not to give up, to keep trying no matter what the odds are, because they can see that the magic that can save the Planet is right there, right before their eyes. They can't give up because they're so close. The way Cloud says it suggests that Holy has already been summoned. It's ready to move and save the Planet, but that they have to defeat Sephiroth first for this to happen, and this spurs everyone on to give their all in the final fight and do everything they can to save the Planet.

Another thing that suggests that Holy has already been summoned is through Bugenhagen's words at the City of the Ancients, when he talks about the White Materia:

Bugenhagen: If our wish reaches the planet, the White Materia will begin to glow a pale green.

And of course, when you see the image of Aeris and the White Materia projected on the falling water, you can see that it's already glowing green.

Cloud: ...It's glowing.
Bugenhagen: Ho Ho Hoooo!! It's pale green!!

Doesn't this suggest that Holy has already been summoned and that Aeris' prayer was succesful? It does to me...

Cloud: Thank you... Aeris. Aeris' voice has already reached the Planet. Just look at the glow of the White Materia. But...... how about Holy? How come Holy isn't moving? Why?
Bugenhagen: Something's getting in its way.
Cloud: ......Him...... He's the only one that could do it. Sephiroth. Where are you?

Well, that kind of confirms things for me. :P

I totally agree... I was in the midst of using the exact same arguments with a Cloti when Vilaeth at AC.net told me that the same Japanese words are used when Bugenhagen says that "if a soul seeking Holy reaches the Planet" as the words used when characters in the story talk about a spirit returning to the Planet. If that's true, then the game is saying that a spirit must return to the Planet in order for Holy to work. If that's being given as a factual statement within the game from the consciousness of the Ancients, how can we say that "the game says so, but the game has to be wrong"? :unsure:

Lol, maybe the game is contradicting itself... :lol:

Actually I don't think the game contradicting itself is so far out there. There are a few plotholes, and just when you thought something couldn't happen, it did or had some way of coming to be. I think a lot of the game was left up to interpretation. Unfortunately, the movie will have to set in stone a few of it's explanations and answers just because there is a sequel and some confusion may arise if certain things aren't settled.

I finally sent Wilhelm a PM about our questions, since he wasn't answering us here. (Poor Wilhelm! He gets so many questions!) Wherever you are, Wilhelm - thank you very much for all your help!! :D Here's his reply:

Hmmm... interesting!

So Aerith was basically just saying, "I'm going now, see you later" rather than "I'll be back when it's all over". I know a lot of Cleris people read significance into that line, but apparently there's no significance... unfortunately. :(

She still says "when everything's over", I just left that part out ^^;

Oh, phew... thank you, Wilhelm!! That makes a big difference!! :D You had me hyperventilating there!! :lol:

Perhaps what we are dealing with here is not a case of the game contradicting itself, but that the Cetra's summoning of Holy is a two-part process.

1. Said Cetra must pray to the planet for Holy to activate, indicated by the piece of materia glowing green (what Aerith did the the Forgotten City)

2. Then, the soul of the Cetra must "combine" with the summoned Holy in the Lifestream (which would explain why Aerith had to die, why we "see" Holy before Aerith's soul reaches the Lifestream, and the relevance of Sephiroth "blocking" Aerith and Holy).

That seems to be a likely explanation. Could it be, then, that the Lifestream swarming over the world at the end of the game is exactly what summoned Holy was supposed to do?

What do you think?

It's possible that the process could have more than one stage. However, didn't the white materia turn green to indicate that Aerith's prayer had served to bond the white materia with Humanity? Or perhaps her prayer accomplished both at the same time? :unsure:

Yes, that's possible...

No, Aerith guided the Lifestream... we found that in a quote by Nomura somewhere in this forum. :lol: I can't remember what thread that was in, but it was in a quote that Wilhelm found for us somewhere. I'll see if I can find it. :rolleyes:

Right, the white materia DID turn green, indicating her prayer had been answered, but that doesn't necessarily contradict anything I said. Activating Holy and bonding the white materia with Humanity doesn't mean that there isn't a second step (Cetra's soul and the summoned Holy combining in the Lifestream) necessary to complete the process.

Oh yes, I know Aerith guided the Lifestream. My point is perhaps Holy's purpose was to grant the Cetra that prayed for it (in this case, Ms. Gainsborough herself) the ability to guide and use the Lifestream once her soul returns to the planet. That's what I meant. Sorry if I didn't communicate that clearly (I probably didn't...)

As much as I personally dislike the idea of Aeris' death being inevitable (and possibly intended ever since the day she was born), your ideas about the stages of summoning Holy and "bonding" the soul of the Cetra to the spell itself make a lot of sense, Buhon, and tie up the plotholes very well. A very interesting theory! :D

The only problem I can see (this isn't just with your theory specifically but also with a lot of other ideas about the summoning of Holy) is that summoning Meteor using the Black Materia didn't demand anything similar. Sephiroth just uses the Materia and casts the spell with little difficulty. The spells are connected to each other because they're polar opposites; the ultimate Black and White magic - one holds the Planet's salavtion, whilst the other holds its destruction. This leads me to believe that summoning both spells would demand exactly the same price. After the Temple of the Ancients is destroyed, Aeris tells Cloud that in order to summon Meteor, "You need great spiritual power to use it." It suggests to me that that's the case with both spells - not just anyone can cast them; you need to be strong and skilled enough spiritually (Sephiroth has spent five years absorbing the knowledge of the Lifestream and Aeris is a Cetra, so they both have these capabilities) and in a location where there's plenty of the Planet's energy (the Northern Crater and the City of the Ancients). That's all the game suggests is needed for the two spells.

I'm inclined to disagree with you here, I'm afraid. The game suggests that the White Materia is supposed to summon the spell Holy, and that would be enough to cleanse the Planet of everything that causes it harm. When it's finally cast at the game's end, Red XIII notes that it's having the opposite effect (possibly because the team were too late in releasing the spell or that being blocked for so long by Seohiroth's will weakened it), and that's when the Lifestream intervenes. I know that what you're getting at is that this was the effect Holy was supposed to have, but I always had the impression that both were independant of each other at this point. It always seemed to me that the Lifestream helping Holy was Aeris' intervention and that she did it on her own, encouraging all the other souls to pour their energy into Holy. To me, this was the moment when Aeris' sacrifice gained the most meaning and beauty, because even though her death in summoning Holy was tragic and avoidable (IMHO, of course); because of her death, she was able to take direct action in saving everyone she loved and the Planet itself when it was in most need. So even a tragic twist of fate could result in something good; a rebirth for the Planet.