I will be bestowing both positive and negative points.

Cloud: +11, -3
Positive:Killed Shadow Creepers. Went to the forgotten capital after kids, fought Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo long enough for Marlene, at least, to escape, rescued Marlene, Fought Bahamut Sin, saved Barret from explosion, slew Bahamut Sin, Fought and defeated Loz and Yazoo, fought and defeated Kadaj, fought and defeated Sephiroth, baptised to get rid of kids' Geostigma
Negative:Dueled Loz and Yazoo to no gain in first sequence. Arrived too late to help against Loz in the Church. Slow to react to challenges
Aerith: +7, -0
Positive:Boosted Cloud's morale, used Fury Brand on Cloud, used Great Gospel to cure Cloud's Geostigma, used Great Gospel again to cure the Geostigma of the children, melted Kadaj, Loz, Yazoo permanently, resurrected Cloud, showed Cloud love lives on even after death, gave Cloud the power to heal other children.
Negative:...None, really. Being dead wasn't much of a disadvantage.
Tifa: +2, -8
Positive:...gave Cloud a boost. Took care of kids.
Negative:Nagged Cloud incessantly, nagged Cloud some more, yet more nagging, fought Loz and did no good doing so, in losing got the materia stolen, failed to fight shadow creepers or Bahamut Sin effectively, failed as an effective human shield for Denzel during the Bahamut attack, failed to protect Marlene from Loz...
Barret: +4, -0
Positive:Saved Denzel, Pumped Bahamut Sin full of lead. Found Oil Field. Gave Cloud a boost.
Negative:Nothing, really.
Cid: +6, -1
Positive:Saved Tifa. Stabbed Bahamut Sin. Saved Yuffie by redirecting a MegaFlare, Made new airship. Flew new airship, Gave Cloud a boost
Negative:As Yuffie stated, 'sexist!'
Yuffie: +5, -1
Positive:Threw Shuriken at Bahamut Sin. Distracted Bahamut from Barret, distracted Bahamut from Vincent, Gave Cloud a boost. Brought materia for Cloud, even if he didn't use it.
Negative:Left her materia with Cloud. Bad idea.
Vincent: +5, -1
Positive:Gave information. Saved Cloud. Pumped Bahamut Sin full of lead. Gave Cloud a boost. Bought a phone.
Negative:Did not attempt to forgive himself.
Red XIII: +5, -1
Positive:Carried Cait Sith around. Rescued Cid, Bit Bahamut. Gave Cloud a boost...with his teeth. Lived 498 years after the movie was over.
Negative:Spoke only once during the movie.
Cait Sith: +1, -1
Positive:Shut Yuffie up.
Negative:Didn't do anything else useful. Red did the fighting, he just sat on Red's back.

So, in strict terms of usefulness...

The most useful people were Cloud and...Aerith. Cloud did more stuff, true, but he also did some things wrong. Aerith had only a positive impact.

Added a few more points. Tifa became still more useless, Cid, Red, and Yuffie became more useful, as did Cloud.

Good God, I love you. :fangirl:

For Tifa, you forgot to put down that she failed as an effective human shield for Denzel during the Bahamut attack, failed to protect Marlene from Loz...

Caretaker.... ye-ah.... <_<

I feel sorry for Tifa. :sad: hey, she did took care of Marlene when Barret was gone or when no one was left to take care of her...I think she's still useful...

Considering Tifa's supposed to be a martial artist, and a damn good one at that, the fact she did no useful fighting during the film is a very strong 'useless' point.

She says on the airship that she doesn't feel as 'strong' as she used to. Well, that may be true of her, but the rest of the team was pretty coordinated in organizing an effort to fight.

And we know from DoC that Cloud and Vincent still have their edge a year after AC.

Great report, Alex! :yes: I agree with you 100%. Also, I have been meaning to bring this up... in the AC menu, the first 3 characters shown are Sephiroth, Aerith, and Cloud (in that order). I started thinking that this really made sense. I mean, even though Tifa was the female lead, she certainly wasn't the heroine. That spot, once again, was taken by Aerith. Also, even though Kadaj was the lead villain, he wasn't the true evil behind it all. Despite the fact that Kadaj and company stirred up a lot of trouble, the true villain behind them was Sephiroth. After all, they were merely remnants of the once-great Sephiroth. So, does the main menu reflect the true villain, heroine, and hero? I sure think so. :P And they are the same three people that they were in the original game.

I'm going to go all defensive on Tifa for a moment, because I luff her (and I hope I'm not ripped apart on this...).

Tifa never nagged Cloud. My mom nags me daily, and I can tell you from personal experience Tifa never nagged Cloud. When he left, what did she do? As upset as she was, she held the family together, gave him his deliveries, and called to check up on him just so she would know he wasn't dead. When she finds out about the Geostigma, she isn't nagging, she's pissed off and she's justified. Her best friend runs and hides and she's tired of it - she wants him to be the fighter she knows he is.

The materia was hardly her fault - I really don't think it's fair to blame her for that. If anything, I think Cloud should be blamed. Gee, very powerful maxed out materia...let me put it in a BOX ON THE GROUND.

The human shield thing I feel is harsh. The woman threw herself in front of Denzel twice to protect him from danger. She's the only reason he wasn't toasted by Bahamut the first time around. Tifa protected Marlene with every inch of her being, and the only reason she lost is because Loz is a remnant of Sephiroth. As strong as Tifa is, she never threw a bike at someone with her legs or anything like that. Even still, on the ground and broken, she begs Marlene to run.

I understand some Tifa critics, but give credit where credit is due.

Tifa always meant well with Cloud, that's true. I think she was just incredibly frustrated with him, personally. However, I thought she was a little harsh with him at times, too, especially when she said, "You think you've got it so damn hard!" That was a bit much. I mean, I really think he did have it hard. He lost the woman he loved and he's dying from a terminal illness. Not to mention he is facing the prospect of a resurrected Sephiroth.

Tifa meant well, but I feel as if she didn't handle Cloud's feelings like she should have. The reason for this, I believe, is because she doesn't really understand what's going on in his mind and heart. Reunion Files agrees with me on that point. :P

I always wondered why he didn't hide that. :lmao:

I guess I just expected Tifa to be more of a challenge to Loz. She is supposed to be a great martial artist and yet Loz toyed with her and, once he was serious, beat her in just a few seconds. According to some rabid Tifa fans, Tifa is the greatest fighter ever and has goddess-like strength and ability. And yet she got her ass handed to her. It's almost amusing to see her psycho fans taken down a notch by that alone. :lol:

Anyways, I guess Alex was saying that, if Tifa had won, the Materia wouldn't have been taken. On the other hand, Cloud shouldn't have left it there in plain sight either.

I always wondered why she didn't grab him and run. Reno and Rude grabbed some kids and took off and Tifa just tried to shield Denzel with her own body instead of using some sense and running away with him. I just thought it made her look thick.

Anyways, all throughout the movie, I thought Tifa was useless in every fight. The only useful thing she did in the fights was help toss Cloud up. I am not saying this to be mean or because I don't like her. It's just how I genuinely feel. Her character was just completely overrated in this movie, IMHO.

Truth. I think a some of the harshness in that scene is because of her fustration, and while Cloud did have it really hard, I think she did make a good point. Denzel had it hard, too, but even as a young child he fights. In a way I think Cloud kind of needed her to kick him in the ass, because he was making another lame excuse to avoid his pain, and there's no way to get over your pain if you don't face it. I could see why people would get upset at her, but from Tifa's standpoint I can totally understand it. If my best friend started acting like a big emo Linkin Park sap, I would be pretty upset.

I did too, seeing the trailer. Then again, Tifa may have Hulk like strength, but in the FF7 world she's pretty much considered an average human where Loz is a remnant of a God-like creature. I know Tifa fans like to hype her up like she's the uber goddess and it kills me. If it was Tifa versus Rude, or Rufus, or someone else then I think she could have won. But the SHM are obviously in a category all their own.

Although I still say using Marlene as a distraction and then blasting Tifa was playing dirty. :whistle:

She does say, "Denzel, let's run!" but I think between those cat eyes he was making and the general chaos going on the window of opportunity was lost. Then those shadow creepers jump up and there's no more time to run. I also believe that since Tifa's stronger than the others, she's more capable of defending him and since she couldn't forsee a giant dragon getting in her way, she thought it would be okay.

--

I think Tifa is strong and useful in battle, but they had to have her lose for plot's sake. Kind of like in DoC. Cloud can kick Sephiroth's ass and destroy a giant dragon, but suddenly isn't able to easily defeat one guy with his 1337 powers?

I kind of agree about her being overrated...in that, most people hyped her up to be the main kickass female lead and as much as I love Tifa, she really didn't seem like the female lead. More like support, I guess?

Well, yes, but Cloud was shown more respect in DoC then Tifa was in AC by far. Cloud didn't get pwned like a girly man.

Besides. Cloud was clearly stronger then Kadaj, but Kadaj lasted a while, on both motorcycle and on foot.

Cloud's DoC opponent likewise lasted a while, even if he wasn't stronger.

Cloud, Kadaj, etc are all in their own class. Let's not forget Tifa is a normal human and not injected with Mako like the others. Mako increases strength, speed, stamina, etc. Tifa has surprising strength for an average human woman.

I'm not expecting everyone to love Tifa, and I can understand getting fustrated at her. But I do think she deserves a heck of a lot more credit than what she gets. She's not some all powerful goddess or badass super Lara Croft -- she's just a normal woman who seeks happiness with her friends.

It's not just that, though.

See, Avalanche has a few normal humans in it.

Tifa, Barret, Cid, and Yuffie are all normal human beings with no special powers.
Likewise, all 4 Turks are normal human beings with no special powers.

Though I have to admit, Cait Sith was pretty useless too. Then again, he's basically a large plushy light enough for Marlene to carry around, which she does in the final scene at the Church.

Barret, Cid, and Yuffie were all useful in fighting Bahamut, and it is perfectly fair to compare Tifa to all 3 of them.

Tifa was not. And that is why she's getting a useless award. It's not fair, perhaps, to compare her to Cloud or even Loz, but she can easily be compared to Barret, Cid, Yuffie, Reno...and most importantly. Rude, because Rude also fought Loz in more or less single combat. And personally, I think Rude made himself more useful fighting Loz then Tifa did. Indeed. Tifa used her limit breaks. Rude used none, had an Aerith sign fall on his head, and still put up a better showing then Tifa did.

To Clarify:When Loz took Tifa down, she was still on the ground when Cloud finally showed up. Tifa didn't get back up. Rude (and Reno) get knocked down 3 or 4 times...but they get back up. He and Reno were breathing hard and looked tired, but that's more then can be said for Tifa, who, in normal FF terms, would've needed a phoenix down, I think.

Although I think the Turks and Avalanche should be put into two different groups, considering one group tooks down Seph and the other...didn't.

Tifa never even fought Bahamut, so that's unfair. She tossed herself in the way of a Mega Flare attack (and SURVIVED) and then drove off with Cloud to join in helping him fight.

And really, I think Barret, Cid, and Yuffie were all pretty useless against the dragon. None of them even made a dent. Hardly. It wasn't exactly like they were kicking ass -- all flashy effects with no result.

[

Hardly, considering Loz and Yazoo were just screwing with him too.

Tifa got hit with a huge volt of electricity. Rude didn't. To be fair, Tifa was hit with a volt, punched, knocked over, swung around and hit with a pew (which she landed from rather gracefully) and ONLY went down after Loz put a huge volt to her stomach.

I maintain that calling Tifa useless is completely uncalled for and untrue. While I don't think she quite gets main heroine status, she's important to the movie in ways you aren't giving her credit for.

What mattered is that all of the examples are human, and are therefore examples of what normal humans are still capable of.

'Tossed herself in the way of MegaFlare?'

As opposed to, say, jumping out of harm's way? And, perhaps, NOT going unconscious a second time. And forcing that same Denzel to run after Bahamut Sin like HE wanted to give Bahamut a good punch in the nose. And forcing Barret to tell /Denzel/ 'you take care of mom'.

And...you're forgetting this is an FF Movie. Just because there's no VISIBLE result you see doesn't mean there aren't invisible white numbers appearing over Bahamut's head stating how much damage was done to him. It's a world with hit points...and Bahamut's HP was being depleted by all those attacks. Tifa never even tried to attack Bahamut. Never even took a swing at him. It's an FF world, her fist would do as much good as a spear or bullets or what have you. She got on Cloud's bike with him, but she didn't do anything useful to justify the ride. She could've gone home with Denzel and Marlene and the only thing different would've been one less person giving Cloud a boost. She tried to be shown nobly standing between Vincent and Yuffie, as if she'd helped fight...but she hadn't done a thing.

On Reno and Rude. Both of them get beaten on, like Tifa. Both of them get toyed with, like Tifa. Both of them get up again, unlike Tifa. Both of them, even when all the direct fighting's over, STILL manage to make themselves useful in a concrete way (and they don't look hurt or tired by that point...) when they put the fireworks down, which did the concrete good of getting Yazoo and Loz off Cloud's tail. Yazoo and Loz were ultimately fools to toy with Turks. But toying with Tifa garnered them no ill effect.

Tifa and her friends are the limit of human capability. Reno and Rude are nothing compared to them (do you see either of those guys causing nuclear explosions with their fists? I think not).

My problem with your conclusions is that you act as though Tifa is nothing but a giant roadblock in this story and sat around doing nothing but falling unconcious which is so far from the truth it's staggering. Your personal bias gets in your own way.

Tifa never attacked Bahamut because she went along with Cloud, and by the time Cloud got there there was obviously no point in jumping in. And be cereal - no one did crap against Bahmut except him. I'd rather have Tifa jump in at the last second giving Cloud a boost than watch her pointlessly jump around to HARDKORE rock music.

So basically, you missed the point of that entire scene. The point was that all of his friends were there to boost him up. Cloud says there's "nothing he doesn't cherish".

I already hit the points on Reno/Rude vs. Tifa and it still stands.

Aside from this, I am of the personal belief that kicking ass isn't all there is to make or break a character (see my endless devotion to white mages, who aren't Lara Croft 203483058). A female doesn't have to be Rambo to make a difference, like Tifa shows. She fought when she had to and protected those and provided support for her loved ones. You seem to be unable to get off of her case because Tifa isn't some invincible uber goddess who can solve everything with a wave of her hand.

I never asked for an invincible goddess. None of us did.

What we EXPECT is for Tifa, as an experienced warrior, to pull her own weight like the rest of the team. But ultimately, she did not pull her own weight. She was dead weight the rest of the team had to pull.

How, exactly, does Tifa pull her weight? When does she really pull her weight? When does she do any of her share of the fighting?

You mention white mages. A white mage is useful. A white mage heals people. Tifa is at no point in the movie responsible for healing a wound. Unlike a certain other young lady I could mention, who heals quite a lot and was given due credit for it.

But. You like think I'm wrong here.

I have a list of what Tifa did...and did not do...in the beginning of the thread. How would you write down Tifa's usefulness quotient in the same manner that I did?

How does she pull her weight? How about taking care of two children all by herself? Running a delivery service and a bar, again, by herself? She protects Marlene and Denzel. She aids Cloud in his time of depression. As much as you'd like to call it "nagging", it's not. Tifa tells Cloud to get his stuff together because that is exactly what he needs to do. She boosts him up just like the others do against Bahamut, the scene showing he needs the support of all his friends. That scene right there is blatantly showing Tifa (literally) pulling weight as a part of the team. It took all of them to boost Cloud.

You keep going into this fighting thing, but to be honest, Tifa's the only one besides Cloud who got a decent fighting scene. Loz may have been toying with her, but she still manages to throw him off far better than anyone else. Reno and Rude are obviously just being fought as a distraction and the FF7 team simply jumps around and doesn't really do...anything against Bahamut. If you want to get super technical, in the way you seem to judge fighting skills, no one really pulls their weight in the team except Cloud.

This is all based on personal opinion. Some people see Tifa as nagging and others don't. What really matters is how Cloud sees it and how he dealt with it.

Usefulness is really based on opinion. I kinda like seeing Tifa take a back seat in the fighting (though you have to give her credit because she got her own fighting scene). She has a new role in this huge FFVII family and hers happens to be a mother/sister figure who offers support. Tifa and Aerith both support Cloud in their own ways and they should both have equal credit for that in my own opinion. Cloud wouldn't be the way he is if he didn't have one or the other.

I'm staying away from the romantic sense as much as possible, but Cloud needed both women for support with how emotionally unstable he is. AC just showed how they both helped him overcome some of these issues. Usefulness of each is really up to how the viewer interprets it.

I think they got serious when Reno mention Jenova was just a head and they still held their own, or at least they weren't unconscious for hours after taking a beating.

I kinda hate how everyone just stopped fighting Bahamut as soon as Cloud entered the scene. I would go far as to say the action ruined the scene because before that you get a nice sense of teamwork from everyone and for that to suddenly stop as soon as the hero comes in seems stupid on SE's part. Thank goodness for the boost scene or I might have stopped watching the movie right there and then :lmao:

The more I think about the Tifa vs Loz scene the more I get annoyed by it. Tifa gets a chance to shine and while it seems like she did, in the end it was nothing but flashy moves that did absolutely nothing. I don't find what Loz did was dirty, it wasn't like he snuck behind her, in a sense, she knew he got up from the attack, she was prepared for another round.

I agree with Kaldea about the mental stability that both Aerith and Tifa provided to Cloud, one was nice, the other was harsh. Though I do kinda get the vibe that Tifa nagged him a bit, at least in the Japanese version, her tone just gave me that impression.

One thing I am very disappointed in, is how the Turks seemed to be more useful than the Avalanche team <_<

You forget, Tifa got shocked by x bolts.

I really liked Tifa in the movie. It showed her optimism at its finest. She encouraged Cloud not to give up, by what many label as nagging, she put effort into beating Loz, and was doing very well considering Loz was a sephiroth clone and she's female, and like what Zelda said, she protected and took care of children.

Lol, I wonder what else she could of done against Bahamut. It couldn't be helped. She was unarmed, and the only thing she could of done was run, but I think that would of provoked Bahamut. It's like when a predator sees its prey trying to escape, what do you think the predator would do?

Then again, if she were to shine, many fans would consider that OOC. And if you think of it, it would of shorten the movie.

Aren't Cloud and Aerith part of AVALANCHE? :P

*points to sig* :fanboy:

And whose fault was it that she got got shocked in the first place? That was the point that I was trying to make, the Turks held their own even when the SHM got serious, Tifa didn't. But I suppose that's just a plot hole since SE never showed how serious the fight between the Turks and the SHM got.

In the world that was presented in AC, I fail to see how this is a problem.

I did not expect her to reduce Loz to a pile of dust, but surely some sort of result of all her effort would have been nice. I do understand what you're saying and what people have said before in this thread. Loz, being part of Sephiroth, has godly strength so to speak. I'm frustrated of the fan-service vibe I got out of the scene once the initial excitement wore down.

Got me, but I was aiming more towards Barret, Yuffie, etc.


Maybe the problem I have isn't really the characters it's the movie, I didn't think AC is a very good movie regardless of being a FF fan or not. Me being a movie fan > than me being an FF fan by far, so perhaps I'm confusing the two. It's a reason why I don't post in AC types of threads often. :blush:

I personally see this as Loz and Yazoo's way of fooling around. Notice how after Loz was called, he tried to finish Tifa battle as quickly as possible. Also notice how they were toying with the turks. I bet if they were rushed or told to finish them off quickly, Loz would of done the same. But that's just my point of view, as Kaldea stated. :D

You've got quite a point.

I've heard this AC complete edition is going to have more details. Maybe they'll add a couple of scratches here and there on Loz. :P

I see :lol: , I agree with you as well in that aspect. I blame the lack of screen time. I wanted to see a little bit more than the team jumping around trying to poke holes on the thing.

I thought AC had a lot of flaws, but I see it as eyecandy for the fans. So, meh.

I actually find that kind of...sexist...

I give Tifa no 'byes' for being of the fairer sex. It's final fantasy, gender makes no real difference to fighting. She's a martial artist and should act like one. The fact was, she lost the fight...

I give Tifa no quarter here, either. She's a martial artist. She fights bare handed. If you want to, you can set her up such that she kills or helps kill a WEAPON barehanded. Tifa should not be given any breaks for being unarmed, because her body is her weapon. And not just to hormonal males, either. She's a female Bruce Lee. Or like Kill Bill without a sword. Or even Buffy, for that matter. No, Tifa is supposed to hold her own against the armed types without benefit of a weapon. To give Tifa due credit, I think I've mentioned before it'd be nice to see her kick one of Bahamut's teeth out. That'd make the sort of impression as to Tifa's usefulness I'm going for.

Ouch, harsh. ^^;

I'd actually put her "nagging" as a good point. I know Cloud's big turning point is when Aerith spoke to him, but you can't expect me to believe that SE gave Tifa that whole scene with him just to show what a "nag" she is. If Aerith contributed a +10 to Cloud's mental healing, then I feel Tifa contributed +5. Otherwise, why bother with that scene?

Losing the materia wasn't her fault. It was Cloud's for not storing them securely enough.

But that's just nitpicking on my part. Overall, I think you're not taking into greater consideration her non-battle contributions. Juggling a strained friendship with a closed-off blond and providing for two kids, operating a run-down bar that can't even get decent electricity, taking Cloud's delivery orders like a secretary, and to be later slapped with a dangerous disease on one of said kids-- are no easy feats.

If Cloud had to handle all that on his own, he might've jumped in front of a bus before AC even started. He's too fragile.

At the very least, I don't think she made things worse, as your negative makes it look.

Really? I thought she was talking about Cloud there. Then again, I haven't watched the official subs, just the fansubs.

Yeah, which is why I can't take Tifa's inactivity at the end too seriously. She'd already had her own solo fight scene-- the Bahamut battle was the time for the rest of AVALANCHE to shine (although they barely did). I guess I consider it more of a "director" thing than a "Tifa=useless" thing.

And ooh, my first reply to you on the forum! xD

I guess it all comes down to interpretation with this one, because I disagree with this bit. I see Tifa being frustrated with Cloud and really letting him have it. She gave him that kick in the ass he needed, but... did it really do any good? IMO, no. Tifa's words didn't reach Cloud at all. He merely started to wallow in self-pity again, thinking, "But... I let you die...." Seriously, Tifa has been trying to get through to Cloud for two years and hasn't managed to accomplish a thing. And she isn't the only one. No one from AVALANCHE has been able to get through to Cloud. He has turned his back on everyone, refusing to answer calls, and not listening to anything they have to say.

The turning point in Cloud's state-of-mind was his visit with Aerith in the flower field. It was only after that that he stated he felt lighter. And it was only after Aerith said she never blamed him that the wolf disappeared from the Forgotten City. Tifa never accomplished any of this. I didn't see her words affect Cloud one bit.

So, what was the "nagging" scene about? IMO, it was put there to show just how much Cloud has rejected the counsel of family and friends. Tifa was the face of AVALANCHE in this scene and Cloud completely rejected her attempts to help him and her advice. I feel as if that scene was put there more to show the difference in Cloud's responses to AVALANCHE/Tifa and Cloud's responses to Aerith. After all, Aerith was confirmed to be the only one who could help Cloud in any emotional sense in Reunion Files.

So, when it comes to mental healing, I still feel as if Tifa didn't do anything to help. She tried, of course. But, I never saw any improvements in Cloud after his talks with Tifa.

Actually, one minor disagreement, there.

Tifa can't reach him, true enough...but Vincent does a much better job of it in the Forgotten City. It isn't Tifa who gave him the +5 to his emotional healing, it's Vincent.

The difference, I think, is that Vincent alone has empathy with Cloud, and Cloud realizes this. So when Vincent starts talking, Cloud pays attention. That's why Cloud asks him 'are sins ever forgiven?' All the rest of AVALANCHE would've said 'yes, of course they are!' Vincent, though, understands what he's getting at, and says 'I've never tried.' Vincent also understands what Aerith is getting at...that the hardest person to forgive is yourself. Vincent never forgave himself...and Cloud by that point hasn't tried to forgive himself yet either. At that point, Cloud sees himself through Vincent...sees in Vincent what everyone else is seeing in him. And then he decides, "I'm gonna try. I'll phone in the verdict." A year later, Cloud's phoned his verdict, and it's Vincent's turn to deal with his own sins in DoC.

Though Vincent doesn't talk to Cloud much in DoC, he probably should've. Nobody else has any idea what Vincent's going through on the inside.

Therefore, when I claim Tifa was useless in words, I am comparing her to Vincent, who was not useless in words.

Whoa, thanks for bringing that to my attention. You are misinterpreting her words. She's saying that after everyone parted ways, the team unity and the strength found within was lost. Cloud, now fighting Kadaj, has tapped into that inner strength again. Understanding and respecting that, Tifa tells the rest of the team he must fight alone.

Agreed, but again. Aside from the fact that her various gloves augment her abilites in the same way Cloud's swords or Yuffie's shurikens do, NO ONE in Avalanche except Cloud really made a difference where battle is concerned. It makes zero sense to get on Tifa's case about this and simply ignore it in everyone else's.

So you think Bruce Lee could have fought off Bahamut? rotfl.

Vincent helps a little, yes. He parallels Cloud in this scene and it's always good to talk to someone who has been through what you have. However, again, you disregaurd Tifa's contribution because she is teh omg meanie. Tifa helps her friend as well - they all do. The whole freaking POINT of the movie was that AVALANCHE had come together as a family, and families help each other in times of crisis each in their own way.

Healing from a wound like Cloud's doesn't come all at once. It took Aeris, Vincent, Tifa, Marlene, and the support of all his friends to finally come to his senses. He slowly progresses throughout the movie - it would make no sense for Cloud to have been suffering for a year and then been MAGICALLY HEALED after one conversation. Things simply don't work like that.

General opinion seems to be I'm being too harsh on her.

I suppose I simply...expected more from Tifa. She is not meant to be useless, certainly enough. But...she was sadly lacking at the arts of war.

And Zelda, don't underestimate martial arts. From the Master of FF1, to Yang, to Sabin, to Tifa, to Zell, to Amarant...martial artists have been shown to be quite effective agains any odd looking critter, no matter what it happened to be.

I somehow think if there were an FF6 movie, Sabin wouldn't be as ineffective as Tifa was. I'm not sure if Zell would be shown to be a loser in an FF8 movie...but it seems more likely he wouldn't be.

He wouldn't have the time-- 90 minutes of it would be nothing but Squinoa anyway. :razz:

I guess we'll have to leave it at differing interpretations, because I do believe it all helped: from Tifa's outburst to all those phone calls AVALANCHE made to Cloud. Aerith was the turning point, and there's no doubt in my mind Cloud would not have healed without her flowerfield talk-- but I see the whole of AVALANCHE as contributing the stepping stones that lead to that point.

I try to imagine Cloud suddenly stumbling upon Aerith in a flowerfield without Tifa, Marlene, or any of those AVALANCHE phone calls... It's just too big a leap for anyone to make.

That's fine, Vincent gets the +5. I'd then give Tifa a +x -- put whatever positive number you want there.

There's no point in going into how good it was for him. My main concern is that her outburst was good for him, and did not make matters worse.

Hmm, good points. Cloud did open up more to Vincent than he did Tifa. So, yeah, I would say that Vincent helped Cloud. :D Cloud really seemed to have an epiphany after Vincent said, "I never tried." I think it was then that Cloud realized that he had to work hard (or at least try) to be forgiven.

Yeah, I don't believe I said Cloud was "magically healed" after one conversation. However, the turning point in Cloud was after he visited with Aerith. His entire outlook started to slowly change from that point. And, by the end of the movie, Cloud's guilt had completely disappeared. Considering Tifa and the others had two years to try and heal Cloud's emotional wounds and they failed to do so, I don't see why they would suddenly be able to help him when they couldn't before. Things don't work that way either. Why would Cloud, who rejected their company and counsel before, suddenly start heeding their words for no reason? It took a touch from Aerith and a few kind words to start the walls crumbling. After that, Cloud started to heal, and not before.

Well, you really are. I still don't see the reason for taking away so many points for Tifa because she was "lacking at the arts of war" when again I point out - no one except Cloud really fought. Correction, no one except Cloud really fought and made a difference. It's sad, but true. I really felt Tifa was the only other character besides him who left that movie with some fighter dignity. Between Vincent floating around on his ROCKET SHOES and everyone else jumping around for no reason, I had no idea why they even showed up.

I am ttly sure Bruce Lee would have kicked that dragon's ass with a roundhouse kick. =]

Again I feel like I should point out that Tifa was fighting the remnant of a GOD-like creature. No, Amarant, Zell, or Yang wouldn't have faired any better. If Tifa was going against anyone else? I could see your point. But as I have stated over and over, the SHM are not to be categorized anywhere near normal numans like Tifa is. I should also state again for the record her defeat was meant to be a plot point - Cloud finds her, wolf shows up, guilt guilt guilt, they wake up and have the conversation, etc. If you re-watch her fight scene, though, you can see that she does better than anyone else. The grimace of Loz's face shows he didn't expect her to be as powerful as she was - hence why he pulls out that 23487503 volts of electricity. I mean, honestly - have you ever been really shocked with electricity? I mean, not a static shock, a REAL shock? It hurts like hell. I was amazed Tifa got up from it the first time with no problem. I will spare you and not go all scientific explaining why a shock like that is worse than a punch in the gut (which Tifa handled with no problem).

I do think Aeris' words were the turning point, but to be fair, Tifa and the others didn't try for two straight years. AC happens two years after FF7, but Cloud didn't leave until the end of the second year (going by CoT, it sounds like the ending of that is the start of AC). No one really tried to get Cloud out of the depression - no one knew where he was or what was going on. Tifa left messages and ran his delivery service, but the conversation in AC leads me to believe this was the first time they brought it up.

Zelda:

I think that for a long time, Cloud was sort of putting up a front that everything was alright...so even though Tifa had sensed that something wasn't quite right, she never approached him in a straightforward manner. I'm sure it must have been pretty difficult for her as well, considering that she and Cloud aren't as open with one another as they could be. Also, Tifa DID attempt to break through to him a few times in CoT, but she never got very far with him on any of those attempts, so it must have been pretty discouraging. Cloud is a pretty stubborn child sometimes. :)

FFG:

Contrary to what Tifa thinks, I do think that Cloud has it hard. The responsibility of everything and everyone seems to fall on him (even that of the family's protection), and the poor guy already has it hard enough as it is. I can't begin to imagine how traumatic and devastating on the conscious it must be to believe it's your fault someone died, especially when that person happens to be someone you love. The guilt alone is painful enough, but to feel such strong grief as well? As hard as Denzel and the rest of the family have it with geostigma and daily life, they're not also being eaten alive with guilt and grief the way Cloud is. Of course, it's so much easier for us to see this side of the story when we're so pink-biased. :lol:

I also believe that Tifa had good intentions, but agreeing with you, she doesn't exactly handle Cloud's feelings well. I guess I can see why some people think she's a bit selfish, even if she isn't. She really does remind me of a mother at times because she tends to lecture him quite a bit. It's not bad or anything, really, but it's not always the right approach to every person. Compare her way to Aerith's way of dealing with Cloud, and I think the difference between the two ladies is extremely evident. IMO, Cloud just needs time to figure things out for himself. Aerith seems to understand that most. Recall that when Cloud talked to her in the flowerfield, she teasingly asked him why he'd come and who he'd wanted forgiveness from even though there's no doubt in my mind she already knew...but again, that's her way of letting him figure things out for himself. I don't think it helps much to just push matters onto him the way Tifa did with the whole responsibility of protecting the family. After all, Cloud's biggest problem is blaming himself for Aerith's death, and like it has been stated, it's something only he can undo himself...and before he can help the family, he has to be able to help himself first.

Might be coincidence, but does anyone else see something of a parallel to Aerith's and Tifa's attitudes toward Cloud and his problems in the movie and KH? Aerith seemed to be so much more relaxed and understanding of him: "Okay, I understand. Go, go get things settled." Vs Tifa following Cloud around and pushing her light onto him whether he needed it or not.

And how do you know all this? Was it ever stated how many times Cloud's friends tried to help heal his wounded soul? It seemed to me that they were trying pretty hard right before AC, as evidenced by the many unanswered messages on his cellphone from several of his friends. Did they try for two straight years? No, and I certainly never said that. I said that they had two years to get him out of his rut and none of them were able to do it. While they may have not continuously attempted to help Cloud, I find it hard to believe that they simply left him to his own devices. I firmly believe that they kept attempting to contact him in one way or another. Perhaps weeks passed during contact, but I don't think that any of them just sat back and watched him fall into despair. But, since there is no evidence one way or another, it is all a matter of opinion. :P

Also, Cloud may have left Seventh Heaven soon before the start of AC, but his problems began way before that. Considering that he stayed gone all of the time, Cloud's rejection of the company and counsel of his friends began as far back as CoT.

Oh, yes, definitely. Aerith is content to wait for Cloud and allow him to deal with his problems in whatever way he needs to. Tifa, on the other hand, worries way too much about him and gets frustrated with Cloud, giving him a good hard kick (or shoving her light at him) when she thinks he needs it.

It's never specifically stated anywhere, this is true. However, CoT was meant to fill in the gap before AC, and it seems Cloud's decline into depression took quite a while. A rough estimate would say that CoT took maybe six months? If not the full year and AC happens a month after Cloud leaves.

I'm not saying they all just shrugged their shoulders when he left or anything. XD; But like I said, the conversation in AC seems to be the first time they are really talking about the heart of the matter - the first time Tifa actually tries to find out what is wrong when before she had no idea. You're right, they did leave messages and stuff, but it seems like no one really worked out what was wrong with him and instead decided to give him time to figure it out on his own.

And...completely off topic for a second, but this smiley looks like its raping the other one - :glomp2:

o_O

I think it went both ways-- Tifa wasn't quite sure what was wrong with Cloud, and Cloud had no idea Tifa and the kids were suffering too. I can see him being so focused on his grief that he simply assumed Tifa, Marlene and Denzel were doing just fine without him (and Tifa's penchant to bottle up her frustration would've made it harder to detect).

Cloud cares, and it struck me that he probably wouldn't have left Seventh Heaven if he knew the extent it'd hurt them. Stay in his room, perhaps, and internalise his grief to the point of bursting; but not just get up and go.

I think Tifa has it hard too. From the beginning of CoT, Cloud had a shared responsibility with Tifa and Barret. Not all the responsibility fell onto him.

In fact, Cloud casts it off later, and rather suddenly at that. He helped rebuild Seventh Heaven-- but later leaves it to her to run it on her own (I'd include the time he started spending on his delivery service, but I assume he still helped out in the bar when he was around). He brought Denzel into the family-- but later leaves both children to Tifa and removes himself from their lives.

Perhaps Tifa and the kids may depend on him a little for protection, but it seems to be in Cloud's nature to multiply that burden on his own. He's the type who'd take it all onto himself, and beat himself up for it when he fails. Just like his guilt over Aerith's death, and his guilt over Tifa getting hurt on Mt Nibel.

I understand Cloud has a lot of grief to deal with, but I don't justify his running away because of it. I feel Tifa had a right to be just a little angry, and her bluntness was probably the only way to get through to him (because as you say, Cloud can be preeetty stubborn :lol: ).


Boo, gotta rush to class now. Will address the whole Aerith/Tifa comparison later. :)

*is going to attempt to defend Cloud*

Lynn:

I don't agree as much that Cloud was unaware of how much they needed him and that he might have stayed had he only known. I thought he was seriously going through a tough time. Despite the fact that he knew how much they needed him, his depression overwhelmed him to the point where he had to leave. I'm sure he felt bad about the whole thing, but there was really nothing he could do about it. *shrugs*

Also, though people say Tifa is shown more independent in AC, I still see her as somewhat clingy. Before Cloud ever came back into her life, she was taking care of Marlene and running a bar all by herself. However, she now suddenly needs Cloud to help carry out half the responsibilities. Maybe I'm completely overlooking something here. :hmm:

What I meant was that Cloud shared whatever responsibilities Tifa and Barret had, plus he had to deal with his depression. Not just that, but I do feel certain things do fall on him, and him alone. If I'm not mistaken, they were depending on him to go save the children. Why didn't she, or Barret, or anyone else go? I was given the impression Cloud was the only one who was truly capable of saving the children so it was his responsibility to go. Tifa made it clear she wanted HIM to go. Things like that.

Really though, why does Cloud get beat on for "running off" and leaving the family because he was clearly suffering from depression when, Barret, on the other hand, wasn't there either to help run the businesses?

Meh...Barret left Marlene in Tifa's care. Does he get picked on for that? No. Is he dying of Geostigma and living with the guilt and depression of having been responsible for the death of the woman he loves? No. Who has it harder? The healthy man or the sick one?

I agree with that...but if it means taking some time off from the family to heal himself of those burdens (whether he caused them himself or not), I can understand his actions. It isn't just about Tifa and the family. It's about Cloud as well. I'm not saying he should forever abandon these people, but clearly, he needed to take care of himself first before he could take on the responsibilities of the family. As much as I'm aware of Tifa and the family's needs (though I have no idea why she couldn't depend on Barret for a change), I sympathize with Cloud, and I completely understand why he left.

I feel Cloud has the right to take care of himself first and foremost. Otherwise, it'd do the family no good anyway. I can understand Tifa's anger if she was angry at Cloud out of concern for his own well-being (which, I felt accounted for half her anger), but if it's about taking care of their businesses and helping her with the children...I find that just a tad bit selfish. After all, the man is extremely sick. Call on Barret please.

FTW.

HD, you have earned even more of my respect for that post. Cloud always seems to be the one taking all the blame for crap and I'm sick of it. Just because Cloud isn't EVERYONE'S ideal man doesn't mean he is useless and selfish for wanting to get over his own damn issues. I don't like how everyone was on his ass and expected so much more from him. Cloud is Cloud and people need to accept it.

:giggle: Now that's a line I never thought I'd be seeing here.

He could've spoken to someone about his grief, or written bad poetry as an outlet. He could've stayed in Seventh Heaven, bottled up his feelings and continued as "normal"... Of course, that's no healthier than isolating yourself in a run-down church and sleeping on the floor. But choices exist, and Cloud chose to leave.

I guess my questions are: Did Cloud know how important he was to that family? If he did, would he still have left? The Cloud I think of loves society, always wanted to be with people who cared for him. Leaving and isolating himself is a VERY extreme gesture in my eyes, and it makes me wonder what could've possibly convinced him to do it.

But since it's all hypothesising, it's gonna depend on what each person's view of Cloud is.

Are you referring to the beginning of FFVII? I'd think Biggs, Jessie and Wedge would've also contributed to taking care of the bar and Marlene.

But it's also got to do with the idea that Cloud, Tifa and Barret all agreed together to rebuild Seventh Heaven and live together. It was a three-way partnership, but by AC, Tifa was left manning the fort. Which leads to...

Why I'm not as harsh on Barret is due to the circumstances surrounding Barret's departure. He didn't suddenly get up and go (I got the impression that he thought and prepared long and hard before leaving, and must've alerted Cloud and Tifa to it beforehand), he kept in contact and called back, and his time away was not destructive (to himself or to others). He was physically away, but gave the family emotional support. He was still a part of the family.

I got the impression that Cloud disappeared suddenly, never called back, which only caused everyone to worry about him (but on the bright side, I think such an extreme measure also helped alert everyone to his grief). He'd removed himself suddenly from the family, and even Marlene thought he didn't want to be with them anymore. That hurt them all, Cloud included. If Cloud had at least kept in contact with them, I think Tifa would've run the household just fine on her own-- because she knows Cloud's got her back.

Barret was not running away, he clearly intended to return. Cloud... I'm not so sure he would ever be seen again, had AC not happened.

Barret has the death of his wife, best friend and (depending on how you play the game) potentially the hatred of his whole hometown on his hands. He and Tifa bombed Mako reactors that killed innocent people, both share the guilt of the Sector 7 crash, both lost Jessie, Biggs and Wedge-- perhaps the closest thing they had to a family before FFVII started. Tifa harbours the guilt of having lied to Cloud that led to a huge mess, and she's probably wondered more than once that if she hadn't, maybe Aerith would've lived.

Both have their share of guilt and sins weighing down on them. That's part of what the whole "sin" theme in CoT is about. Just because it's not as explored as Cloud's was doesn't make them any less depressing or important for either of them.

I believe that most of Tifa's anger stems from the way Cloud is hurting himself, but is it so wrong that she's a little frustrated too? I'd find it unbelievable for someone to be so selfless that they don't think about their own problems. Cloud hasn't exactly been the ideal housemate, and not for lack of trying on her part. After the Loz battle, everything was crumbling down, and I wouldn't be surprised if a smidgeon of the frustration that's built up over the year(s) made its way into Tifa's outburst.

But my concern is more that Cloud hasn't been brought to task for not thinking of others more. We criticise Tifa for not thinking of Cloud's position, but Cloud is allowed to not think about Tifa's? Isn't devoting himself to his own problems and leaving his new family stranded also selfish on his part? He was willing to leave kids in Kadaj's hands because he was too afraid of his guilt to return to the Forgotten City-- how is that not thinking of himself?

The idea is for both of them to work together to solve it, but Cloud's isolation and Tifa's misdirected attempts screwed it up.

This is an interesting thought, it never occurred to me to look at it this way. At that point, Barret and the rest of AVALANCHE were who-knows-where, so Tifa couldn't depend on them. Perhaps Tifa also realised that Loz was stronger than her and AVALANCHE, and Cloud was the only one around who would've been an equal match.

But on a deeper level, perhaps this was Tifa's way of finally forcing Cloud to choose-- continue running away or face the future? For a long time, Cloud has been stewing and even rotting in his grief. Talking to him wasn't doing any good; he needed to be faced with a life-and-death choice to force him to move. (And even then, it needed the blockade by the Turks to finally force him into action.)

If you're referring to me criticising Cloud for running away, then I'll clarify: I see his isolation similar to... cutting, for example. People cut themselves for whatever reason-- depression, grief, anger etc. I empathise with their suffering, but I don't approve of the act because cutting does no one any favours.

As with Cloud: I understand his grief, and that leaving Seventh Heaven was perhaps the only way he could think of to deal with it. But it still ended up hurting more than helping, and I don't approve of the method.

And yes, I would call him selfish, just as I would call Tifa selfish (I'd even call Aerith a little selfish, but that's going into whole new territory). It's not a horrible character trait-- everyone's a little selfish, and after saving the world, it was inevitable for AVALANCHE to focus on their individual needs a little more. I wouldn't call him useless, though, dunno where you got that.

(Man, this post is too long, but I want to comment on this comparison :hide: )

I definitely agree that Aerith and Tifa have different ways of dealing with Cloud, and KH2 showed that pretty well. Aerith generally moves aside to let him think for himself-- whereas Tifa tries to keep him moving, trying to steer Cloud into the direction she thinks would help him.

I don't know where the "lecture" tag came from for Tifa, though. I don't recall Tifa ever lecturing Cloud on such a regular basis that it's her modus operandi (I don't think she ever lectured him in FFVII, but I can't remember much from CoT). And despite how funny I find to call it "nagging", I don't think of that AC scene as nagging-- it was Tifa telling Cloud what was what, and shy ol' Tifa usually never does that.

Lynn:

...but if that isn't the person who Cloud is, can you really say he had those choices? I mean, he did bottle up his feelings, but depression is a form of sickness. You can only do that for so long before it overwhelms you. Even if he'd been close enough to Tifa to talk to her about his issues, would it have helped? Finding forgiveness from Aerith isn't something Tifa can help him with. It's something only he himself can do (with Aerith's aid, of course).

I think he knew. Even after Tifa's lecture about the family, he still hesitated. It's not that he didn't care, but it's not like he ran after the children as soon as he realized how much they depended on him either. I don't blame him for any of that though. It's what can happen to a person when they're suffering from mental illness.

Well, I don't think Cloud is anti-social, but I see a Cloud who didn't grow up with loving friends and family around him. I think that has had a big impact on his life, and I can see him surviving on his own, and not wanting to depend on the others as much. He has mentally suffered before. I guess I see my Cloud as someone who, despite having a loving family around him now, still keeps that little extra space around himself. There's always a little part of him that he keeps closed off and things and feelings that he keeps to himself. It's why I love the more open relationship between him and Aerith, and the fact that she can get into his head sometimes and read him best.

Personally, I don't really think Cloud's time away was destructive to himself. He needed time to figure things out without feeling like he was burdening the family with his uselessness. I'm not sure Cloud would have gotten better had he continued to stay with the family as he did at the beginning of CoT.

The thing is, Barret was able to offer the family emotional support. Cloud couldn't have offered them that support even if he wanted to, even if he had stayed and not gone. It's not like Cloud was healthy and just decided to get up and go. It's why I can't blame him for not being there for the family.

...but Cloud's sick. He could barely hold his own back up...so, seriously, what makes Tifa think he could support her? Like I said, I'm not faulting Tifa for being angry at Cloud for making her and the rest of the family worry about him. I do think it's pretty selfish, though, for her to expect a sick man to take on half the responsibilities whether he'd agreed to being part of it in the first place or not.

In other words, if Cloud never got well again, Tifa would have continued to hold it against him for having "ran away and left his responsibilities"?

Yes, I'm aware they've all had their share of losses...but they're not sick, that's the big difference. They were able to carry on with life fine. They didn't break down and suffer from depression. Cloud suffers because of who he is. He has in the past, and he can break down again if the chance arises. Like Kaldea said, Cloud is Cloud and people should accept him for that (and give him a break :P ).

I agree with you here. I would have scolded Cloud myself had he attempted such a thing. He wasn't planning on suicide though, I don't think.

Personally, I don't think it would have been any better for Cloud to have stayed. Tifa was going through a tough time with him even when he was still around in CoT. It's not part of Cloud's nature to be able to just sit down and openly talk to her, and she couldn't have done much for him anyhow. Cloud felt that by staying, he would have only been a burden to the family. That might not have been necessarily true, but I don't blame him because I understand why he had done things the way he did.

Depends, I think. Was she just frustrated with the whole situation of his sickness or with Cloud himself for having "abandoned" his responsibilities? I would consider her selfish for one, but not for the other. To me, it seemed like she wanted Cloud to be able to just forgive himself, suddenly get better, and go save the children. It's not that easy, darlin' T.T

Had Cloud been healthy, you can bet I would have seen him as selfish. However, if he can't even help himself...there's no way he would have been able to help the others. You can't take care of someone else if you can't take care of yourself. If you're mentally unstable, how on earth are you supposed to lend anyone else mental support? IMO, Cloud was right, in this case, to think of himself first.

I'm not sure if you have people in your family who are ill, but my mom has always been ill, ever since I was born. Anyhow, over the longs years, it has affected her mentally as well. I want her to always think of herself first and to not worry about us. It's her right. Sure, the whole fact that she's sick frustrates me sometimes, and that's okay, but I don't ever get angry at her for not being able to take on her responsibilities like other healthy mothers. It's not her fault, and it can't be helped. The rest of us just have to do the best we can. *shrugs*

Obviously, my mom's case is a little different, but sometimes, I think it might even be worse for people suffering from actual severe depression.

I just wanted to comment on this.

Even in real life, it's very hard for single moms even with one child. Taking charge and raising another person takes a lot of time and energy. And on top of that, Tifa must run her own bar to provide for them as well as play secretary for Cloud's service. I don't think it has anything to do with Tifa being clingy over Cloud - while yes, she'd like her friend to come back for personal reasons, she must have had a really hard time taking care of everything after he and Barret left. I can totally understand why she needs him to help out with the responsibilities. You can only juggle so much for so long by yourself.

Well. The conversation's gotten a good deal more complex then it was. But I shall respond as I may.

On Cloud.

Before the movie, in CoT, Cloud seems to push Tifa away. She tries to talk to him, tries to get through to him...and doesn't. It is noteable, however, in CoT, that he does let the children in. And that Denzel in particular seems to look up to Cloud a good deal more then Tifa. Tifa almost feels...left out.

While it might not have been clear to him that Tifa needed him, it should've been at least somewhat clear the kids did.

Eventually, Cloud comes down with Geostigma. There's no cure for the disease. He's got it, and Denzel's got it. Though he hides it in his own case, he's surely well aware of the fact Denzel's got it. It's almost like Denzel's sort of Cloud's 'mini-me'. Hence why Denzel suddenly goes charging after Bahamut when Tifa goes down. It's mere speculation, but I somehow guess that when Denzel gets older, he'll be the one to inherit Cloud's sword.

So. Cloud runs out on those who lived with him. Lived, past tense. I wonder how Tifa knew to look for Cloud in the church in the first place? She must've known that if he was running from her, there's only one other person he might've gone to. Tifa, by that point, probably feels abandoned. Cloud's gone to be alone with his memories of Aerith in a Church. A Church with a hole in the roof that he might remember falling through it. Tifa at first says 'he wants to fight alone'. Marlene questions 'fight?' Tifa corrects herself. 'No, I don't think that he will.' Tifa is at first willing to just let him lie, as if she realizes then that he's beyond her help, but Marlene refuses, forcing Tifa to wait for Cloud. But both Tifa and Marlene cheerfully agree Cloud's going to get a lecture. Tifa's corrupted Marlene. Poor Denzel. He's going to be doomed to endless lectures in the future...

Loz drops by, pwns Tifa, steals the Materia and Marlene, and Cloud gets home to his nice quiet church filled with memories of Aerith...Cloud thinks he's going to die of the disease, and he figures death is no bad thing, because he'll be reunited with Aerith when he finally kicks the bucket. And in he goes to spend his last days in Aerith's church only to find Tifa lying their unconscious. And the Materia's gone. And he hears from Tifa Marlene's gone too. His Geostigma flares up, the wolf shows up, and then there's a water droplet...and whitespace, as Cloud and Tifa lie in the flowerfields in a yin yang position. Despite the lack of voice, this is Aerith's first contact in the movie with Cloud from beyond the grave. Cloud wakes up in his bed, the Turks having carried them there. Did the TURKs go to the church on their own, or were they led there by Aerith? Well, they're TURKs. They might've known to go there on their own. But I think they were lead.

In any event, Cloud wakes up...and at this point, even the TURKs start getting a little 'dude, what the hell is wrong with you'? The TURKs aren't particularly close to Cloud, but they still noticed Cloud was having serious issues.

At that point, Tifa starts her long drawn out lecture with TURK support, much of which is shown in flashbacks. I'm sure it was done that way because it would've looked...well...even more heavy handed then it was if it hadn't been broken up into pieces. Cloud isn't really paying attention...he's looking out the window at the angel statue...because it reminds him of Aerith. Cloud isn't interested in what they have to say. Cloud tries to send Reno and Rude in instead, but Reno and Rude, surely aware of Tseng and Elena's fate by then, aren't stupid enough to try it. "You go" Reno says, and that's the end of Turk involvement. Tifa then asks Cloud the infamous question 'what's it going to be...a memory or us?' He chose the memory...saying to himself 'But...I let you die' as he enters whitespace. Aerith doesn't let him wallow in misery though, "Dilly dally shilly shally, isn't it time you did the forgiving?" And off Cloud goes.

En route to the Forgotten City, Aerith's first bodily manifestation is back to back. Though she must at some point turn to him enough to put her hand on his shoulder. Aerith undestands just how bad off Cloud is. "You came. Even though you're about to break. That's a good sign. So. Why did you come?" Aerith undestands how close to breaking Cloud really is. "I think I want to be forgiven. More then anything." Aerith realizes that she's not the one who needs to forgive him. So she playfully asks 'by who?'

Some asskicking and a swoop in by Vincent later, we see the phone.

And we see why Cloud never threw the phone away. While there were messages from all of AVALANCHE on the phone, the last message to be played was...from Aerith. He didn't throw the phone away, because once Aerith sent him a message by phone, he was afraid of missing any others she might send. Especially a message like 'I never blamed you. Not once. You came for me. That's all that matters...'

Finally, Cloud talks to Vincent. There is the dark reflection of himself. Vincent lived with his grief for 27 years...a nightmare that never ended. Cloud saw in Vincent what would become of him if he lived with his grief for 27 years. He tries to tell Marlene there's a 'battle to be fought'. Both Marlene and Vincent call that as BS. To the point Marlene decides to hide in Vincent's cape. He tries to pawn Marlene off on Vincent, but Vincent says, "You know I can't do that." Vincent's not the most friendly guy around, but Marlene still feels comfy enough to just hide right next to him. And then to yell at Cloud about why he never pays any attention to them. Vincent, meanwhile, says, "Cloud, are you sure this is about fighting?" Vincent knows damn well it isn't about fighting. Any more then then it's 'just about fighting' for Vincent himself. Cloud, caught, asks, "Are sins ever forgiven?" Vincent, comparing Aerith to Lucrecia and finding the comparison valid, says "I've never tried." Cloud thinks for a bit...then says, "Well, I'm gonna try. I'll phone in the verdict." Cloud has to replace his phone, and Vincent has to buy a new one. Neither Vincent nor Cloud are allowed to be isolated anymore.

Meanwhile, there's more mortal kombat to be done. The only part of Cloud's development is when he tells Tifa 'I feel lighter now. Must be all that dilly dallying...' Tifa smiles, and hops on his bike with him. By this point, most of AVALANCHE has already joined the battle against Bahamut Sin. Cloud first saves Barret, who yells at him for being late. And then Cloud goes in to smack Bahamut around. Bahamut makes for the sky. Then, the order...Barret is the first to give Cloud a Boost. Cid's spear is used as a base next. Nanaki jumps by to throw him up with his teeth. Yuffie swoops in next. Vincent is next. Tifa is the last mortal to touch him, admonishing him to not give up. And yet, as Cloud jumps up through MegaFlare, he starts to falter. He starts to get scared. All of Avalanche looks up at him. All except one. Cloud's eyes widen, and soften. Cloud sees her face. Cloud reaches for the hand he tried to reach for at the end of FF7 but couldn't reach. And this time he takes that hand. Green Energy passes from Aerith to Cloud, the power of Fury Brand. Now feeling it again, Cloud passes through MegaFlare, lands on Bahamut's back, slices the bugger in half with Climhazzard, and leaps down to land on a girder. Bahamut is unsummoned.

Then Cloud gets to go beat some remnants of Sephiroth up. The Turks cover for him, and then he gets to go after poor Kadaj by himself.

Finally, he chases Kadaj to the church. It is relevant here to note that when Loz enters the Church, he finds the flowers 'gross'. Kadaj, obviously, picked the wrong darn place to fight Cloud. Because no sooner does he attack Cloud with his materia then the lifestream starts to well up from the ground. In exactly the same fashion as the Great Gospel limit break. Cloud is healed and restored by the rain...but Kadaj is allergic to it, and runs away from it. Cloud wants to stand there and enjoy the rain that purged his Geostigma, but there's another water droplet, and she nudges him, "Let's go, Cloud..." Not, by the way, 'You go, Cloud" which is what Reno told him. Let's, or, let /us/ go, Cloud. She is still with him.

His geostigma purged, Cloud makes short work of Kadaj, so Kadaj gives himself a reunion...and look, there's Sephiroth. The scene cuts to Marlene, who suddenly asks 'is it her?' With Sephiroth active, there's a threat to the planet, and Marlene can sense Aerith's influence fighting the Darkness of Sephiroth's will in the background even as Cloud fights his body in the foreground.

In the middle of all the ass kickery, Sephiroth asks questions. "Where did you find this strength?" "Shall I gave you despair?" Before saying, "Tell me what you cherish most. Give me the pleasure of taking it away." In Cloud's memories, he thinks of Aerith first. But not the living Aerith. The Aerith that's still with him. Before thinking of Tifa and the family, who are also still with him.

An Omnislash later, Sephiroth's power is broken, and the rain comes. Sephiroth is no longer around to hold Aerith back, and she quickly starts purging the SHM with her her healing rain. She even heals Rufus, along with a few kids, apparently forgiving Rufus since he took shots at Kadaj. Cloud stands in the rain, face up. Almost as if he'd like to kiss the rain. Kadaj melts. Loz and Yazoo try to resist melting, and can't. But Yazoo does manage to shoot Cloud before Yazoo and Loz self destruct violently with their materia.

Aerith apparently lets some kids know where to find Cloud as she takes him fully into whitespace. On the borders so close to life and death, Zack can speak now. She heals him of the gunshot. Cloud says 'mother?' Aerith most certainly doesn't want to be thought of as Cloud's mother, so she goes 'again?' Zack, being debonair as always, goes, "Guess they must be fond of you." "This one's too big to adopt." And so he is. Cloud isn't adoption material, as Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo were. Cloud is...mate material. Zack misinterprets it a little, I think, when he says 'tough luck, your place isn't here.' Or perhaps not. In Maiden, Zack is given to understand that she does love Cloud that way. I suppose he might've thought her love had faded...but true love...selfless love...is often hard to understand, and in that love, Aerith overcomes what she must surely want and sends Cloud back to the realm of the living.

But even Aerith cannot resist the call to keep coming back to Cloud. So she appears in the Church. With Zack. Dragged him out of his tomb to wish Cloud well, that he might not feel any lingering guilt over his best friend. Aerith's efforts are rewarded with something she must surely have wanted to see for a long time. Cloud's smile.

After AC, the sequence of events include Cloud going to the flowerfield and stopping therein. While Cloud has accepted his responsibilities to his family, he yet has a responsibility to Aerith. As with any love relationship, he must go out of his way to spend time with her to keep the love alive. To not forget her. To love her. The flowerfield trips might be roughly equated to...dates. So to speak.