So over at this thread, I made this comment:

Which I do. That plus Lynn's suggestion gave me a good idea for a topic of discussion. That is, whether Aerith is or is not a Mary Sue.

First, I should probably define the term 'Mary Sue', for those who may not be familiar with it. Basically, Mary Sues are idealized or 'perfect' characters. Well, it's a lot more complicated than this, but in this case, I'll just use this definition (spliced a bit by me) from Wikipedia which has already defined it exceptionally well:

Keep in mind that Mary Sues usually refer to original characters in fanfiction. However, it's a fact that they can also refer to original characters in original mediums.

It's no secret that a lot of people (particularly Aerith haters) claim that this definitely applies to Aerith. I mean just look at this icon I found while on livejournal:
:mad: :mad: :mad:

Hell, even Wikipedia has her listed up as a dreaded M-Sue. For a while I too thought she was one. It's hard not to because of her attractiveness, her mysterious past, her likeability and perpetual sweetness. But after thinking hard about it, I've decided that there's a definite problem with this.

The Mysterious Origin

Okay, so yes Aerith does have a unique and mysterious origin. She is the last of an Ancient race, who holds the key to saving the world. This does sound very Mary Sueish. But isn't it needed in the story? I mean, no one else could have summoned Holy. No one else could have saved the world. Only a Cetra. Therefore, there needed to be a Cetran in the party. Now it's true that they didn't have to make it Aerith. Then again, are we to assume that whoever in the party did bear the title of Cetran is by definition a Mary Sue/Gary Stu? I wonder, had Tifa been the Cetran, would Aerith haters apply the same criticism to her? Regardless of who it is, this race is integral to the story. I don't think we should fault Aerith just because the creators decided to give this title to her.

The Tragic Past

Okay, lots of people have also criticized Aerith for her tragic past. Her father was killed before she could walk, and she and her mother were lab specimens for years aftwards. They busted out, only for Ifalna to die. Afterwards Aerith spent the rest of her years being chased around by Shinra before she met Cloud and eventually died. We know all this. But you know what? If Aerith is a Mary Sue because of her tragic past, then everyone on the freaking party is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, because everyone practically has one. Hell, what about Tifa, who's hometown was burnt down and whose father was killed? Same thing with Cloud, right? Barret, Cid, Red, Sephiroth, they all went through a great deal of pain in their pasts. This is just the convention of most RPGs. I mean seriously, name one rpg that didn't have at least three important characters with broken pasts? Even in anime you can see this. I have yet to see one anime in which the main character still has both his/her parents and is living a happy and normal life. This is done for drama, to make the character intersting. It may be a lame way to do it, but Aerith certainly isn't the only one who falls under this category.

Beauty

Yeah, yeah, Mary Sues are always beautiful, right? Well 98.55% of the FF7 cast is pretty. Next.

Lack of Flaws

The major reason why Aerith is seen as a Mary Sue is because of her personality. Like I said before, she's sweet - extremely sweet. She never does an unkind thing, nor does she ever feel down right? She's Happy Girl! Fear her perpetual joy!!

Um, no.

Aerith may be a kind and sweet girl. But she's far from flawless. For example, when you first go to the Gold Saucer, Barret is obviously in a snit about what happened to Corel. Everyone knows this by now, since they've already heard about his tragic past. But Aerith, with a happy little smile tells him:

Now it's quite obvious that Aerith didn't mean to sound insensitive. In fact she tells Tifa later that she truly believes that in situations like these, one should just act normal. But the rest of us (or at least me) can see that this really wasn't the right way to go about things. After bearing such a painful story, being so light-hearted about it all is insensitive. She should also have known Barret long enough to realize that he isn't the type of guy who'd appreciate her attempts to cheer him up. This was Aerith's mistake. Yes, I said it - mistake. And we all make them.

And what about Aerith always being happy? She's never sad right? Right?

Yep, that sounds right cheery that does. Obviously one can see that throughout the game Aerith did have her low points. However, it's testimony to her strength that she was able to push it aside for the sake of the team (and maybe her own sanity) and try to be positive about it all.

And anyway, should we really fault someone for being sweet and kind? I mean, are we so jaded now and days that we'll see someone who actually attempts to think positively, do right onto others and *gasp* smile, and hate them? As far as I'm concerned we should all take a page out of Aerith's book, as well as people/characters like her. It's okay to be happy, you know. It's even better when you can do this, despite all the terrible things that have gone on in your life. Who really wants to be around someone who's emo and angsts all the time? Unless he's incredibly hot and goes by the name of Cloud Stife. *cough*

Anyway, that's all I've got, really. I do believe that although Aerith does seem like a Mary Sue on paper, but when you really analyze her character, you'll find that she goes a lot deeper than that. Oh, and for those of you who are pissed cuz Aerith was listed on Wikipedia as a Mary Sue, never fear guys! Tifa's up there too. And so is Cloud :lmao: Really, it all depends on how you look at it.

Thoughts, questions, comments?

Note: am in a huge Pissed Off mode, so bear with me.

I dunno. A part of me accepted every character in fiction is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu.

Aragron: Handsome, capable leader, capable fighter, has an elf-wife, led the way to a Golden Age. Has a sword that screams HISTORY!!! Gary Stu.

Harry Potter: Parents get killed. Chosen One. Only guy who says Voldie's name. Everyone loves him. Has hero complex. Handsome. Captain of his team. Gary Stu.

Luke Skywalker, Cloud Strife and others fell in this as well. I have yet to meet a truly ugly character that has no human moralities and wants to destroy the world. But who wants to read that?

Tifa Lockheart is a huge Mary Sue. Yeah, she's so nice and kind and will sacrifice a leg for Cloud who has a huge heart because she takes care of orphaned children.

And lots of others too. But I don't have the patience to rant about em all.

End of story.

I think Aerith is a fabulous, extremely likable character, but she's not perfect. I'm not part of that 'Aerith is ethereal and perfect and sweet and naive and angelic' school of thought that some fans subscribe to. Aerith appears that way on the surface, with her mysterious backstory and her Cetra heritage, but if you play the game and actually get to know Aerith, it's obvious she isn't like that at all. She's streetwise ("This place is dangerous, especially for a girl. So we've got to get Tifa out fast.") and doesn't let anyone tell her what to do. ("What do you mean, 'from a girl'? You expect me to just sit by after hearing something like that?" "Don't tell me to go home.") She's smarter than some haters and indeed, fans, give her credit for.

She takes control and bosses Cloud around during the Wall Market Sidequest, she teases him and jokes around, and she says the wrong thing sometimes. She gets lets things get to her sometimes, like in Cosmo Canyon. She has her own set of flaws like any three dimensional character, and her past isn't significantly more painful than any other main character's past - like you pointed out.

And on the happy thing, I wholeheartedly agree. Being optimistic isn't a bad thing. I think that if there were more people like Aerith, and more people who had her outlook on life in the world, it'd be a better place.

Aer-chan may have been perfect the way she was but that hardly means she had no flaws.

There are honestly so many different kinds of Mary Sues nowadays that aren't just limited to characters that are "warm and have an optimistic outlook on life" that it's hard for any character not to be "accused" of being one by an overzealous fan.

Stubborn but have a good heart? Mary Sue. Able to bounce back from troubles and strife? Mary Sue. Hell, even the characters who acknowledge that they have a darker side to them that they don't particularly like get labeled as Mary Sues. In the end, everoyne's just a bloody Mary Sue/Gary Stu.

If Aerith's a Mary Sue, then so is Tifa with that untouchable loyalty to Cloud and abundant love for children and puppies and rainbows.

I agree, Aerith is a fabulous character, and without flaws she wouldn't be as good a character. Aerith is normally a very happy, go-lucky person, but also she seems to be over whelmed(?) at times by the whole Cetra thing. Like in Cosmo Canyon, and at Cost Del Sol when she says something about wondering what a Cetra was suposed(?) to be like. She also seems to be so happy and optimistic at times that it is completely out of place and at times just plain insensitive. Also, she wasn't the most physically strong character. In fact, I think she was one of the lowest hitters in the game. Though Aerith was one of the strongest in terms of magic.

Besides, we didn't get very long with Aerith, she probably had a great more flaws that we never got to see. Maybe she was afraid of heights, or maybe she didn't know when to quit teasing people. We'll never know, will we?

I think since aeris imperfect features it makes her chracter more real and understandable the part with barret most ppl think that she screwed up so lets all corner her for it lol but i dont think she did even Tifa pointed it out she said something liek" Dont worry i think he(barret) is a little better"or something liek that

newho back to subject everyone in ff7 had major flaws but it doesnt stop them from being great characters who ppl love :P

There are two big traits that determins if a character is a Sue or not is whether the character is a Sue or not.

Those two are ...
1) the character is annoyingly perfect. In this case, far from it. She dies before she can accomplish her goal, she's weak in battle, and others have pointed out her character flaws.

2) Everyone bends over backwards for the character and tell them how great they are or bows to their wisdom. ... Not the case with Aeris. She wasn't treated any more special than Tifa or Red XIII was by the rest of the group. Even Tseng, who supposedly had feelings for her, slapped her around.

Now it's quite common for a chracter to have Sue-ish traits. Almost all characters do. It's quite another to be a Mary Sue.

Alan Bates:

I completely agree with this statement. Anti-R also did a good job of pointing out traits in many different characters that can make them seem Sue-ish. It's especially true with heroes/heroines of RPGs.

Although Aerith has many typical heroine traits that make her seem Sue-ish, she definitely isn't without flaw. She's a normal being with normal emotions and worries. Just because she handles those worries differently from Tifa or Barret doesn't make her any more or less of a Mary-Sue. Aerith tends to look at situations from a more positive perspective. However, her outlook on life does not make her invincible in any way. She's still very capable of failing, dying, and falling apart just as anyone else is. I think the simple fact that she isn't as physically capable as she is magically, is enough to say that she isn't perfect/a mary-sue.

Key:

Couldn't have said it better...
*HD wuvs Joo*


Nyrin:

I pretty much agree with many of your points about Aerith having flaws. While we're at it though, and since the scene was brought up, just thought I'd add my two cents about Aerith's 'insensitivity' towards Barret. I honestly don't think she was being insensitive in any way. I actually think she was mindful of him and knew that this was really bothering him. However, instead of sulking in depression with him (Barret's usually not the type to get all soft and sappy anyway), she chose to "slap him in the face" and bring him back to his senses.

Barret: I ain't in no cheery mood. So jes' leave me alone."
(She goes over to him and looks at him.)
Aerith: Really? That's too bad.
(She runs over to Cloud)
Aerith: Let's go!

I think it demonstrates her positive outlook on life rather than her capability in making mistakes and being insensitive. Maybe it's just me... :P

I typically assign the dubious distinction of "Mary Sue"/"Gary Stu" to original characters in fanfictions. As Anti-R aptly proved, basically every leading canon character can be identified as having Sue/Stu-ish qualities. Fans recognise that's what keeps them apart from the rest of the cast.

Unfortunately, they apply the same principles on their OCs at a much larger extreme (or perhaps published authors are just better at hiding it), and this gives rise to annoying Mary Sues/Gary Stus.

I think Aerith becomes dangerously Mary Sueish in fanon, not the game itself. These assumptions or idealisms can come from overzealous fans, the ones who become too pushy the minute Aerith is criticised (even if constructively), that haters end up disliking her actual character rather than the interpretation of the fans'.

For instance, to touch upon Aerith's kindness that you addressed-- Some people automatically take this to mean she'd give an arm and leg to help any random person. Why? Just because she sells Johnny a flower for 1 Gil? I've seen it happen during RPs, where Aerith automatically becomes the personification of charity for no good reason.

But take a look at the game: Do we actually see Aerith going out of her way to help random people? She's kind, yes, there's little doubt about that-- But if she were half as charitable as some RPs make her to be, she would've taken in the incapacitated Sewer Guy years ago and offered him free food and lodging in her house.

Aerith is streetsmart, so I'd like to believe she knows the limit of how much she can give without hurting herself or Elmyra. And that's a perfectly understandable, human thought to have.

The game has many points where Aerith's weaknesses are shown, but it also leaves many holes for the fans to fill. They're small holes, but filling them helps build a character from what is presented on-screen. Such as, is Aerith a good cook? A good singer? We already know she's a good gardener, but does she have any sort of rhythm on the dance floor?

It's when fans imagine she's an awesome cook, has the voice of angels, can perform miracles on the dance floor etc. etc. ALL AT ONCE that it starts ticking others off.

Heartily agreed. Aerith didn't have flocks of guys running after her either, nor did anybody actually compliment her on her "dazzling emerald eyes", which are actually one of her trademark features. The attention she DID receive was actually quite unhealthy for her. :lol:

Aerith is treated much like any other member of AVALANCHE by her teammates, and really, the only person who arguably gives her special treatment is Cloud (you don't see Barret or Cid telling her to stay out of things for her safety).

Exactly. It's why I cannot accept the idea that Tifa wasn't emotionally weak and dependant on others. There are fans who idealise her as being both emotionally AND physically strong, who try to explain away or make excuses for her faults, and that just strikes me as making her excessively Mary Sueish.

That said, it was once commented on ACF that Aerith is easier to hate than (I would assume although I can't remember if the poster actually said so) Tifa. I don't find that very surprising.

Although Aerith has had her weak points, most of her major screentime has been focused on other aspects of her personality-- her sacrifice, her optimism etc. And after she died, there was no chance to focus on her weaknesses anymore.

In great contrast is Tifa. She has many Mary Sueish qualities, as has been pointed out, but we get several solid scenes detailing her weaknesses-- when Sephiroth taunted them at the Norther Crater, during the Lifestream event, after Cloud went missing. In those, we find out Tifa was the popular girl who ignored Cloud, who kept the truth of his past from him with devastating results, who lost her composure and confidence when Cloud disappeared.

So it's no surprise that a gamer who does not bother to pay attention to Aerith and Tifa's big AND small moments may end up disliking Aerith (whose biggest, most memorable scene was her self-sacrificing death) and liking Tifa (whose pivotal scene, I would assume, would be the Lifestream event).

Just a possible answer to posts I've seen lamenting why Aerith seems to be hated more so than Tifa.

I totally agree with what everyone's saying, particularly about Aerith's fanon qualities, and how they might have blown Aerith's good traits so out of proportion that people started to think that she was an MSue, without really paying attention to her actual character. Fanon always distorts people's personalities, don't they? Just look what they did to Cloud! In the game he had so many layers - in fact, one can say that he was a bit of a geek! But in fanon they strip away everything but the angst, so essentially he becomes a Squall clone. But that's not Cloud!!! :angry:

And about Tifa - I tried to have a discussion about her with a Cloti and got my ass burnt. Basically, I was wondering why in AC she was suddenly so Sueish. In the game, Tifa did have lots of flaws (which, as Lynn said, was explored far more than Aerith's flaws, for lack of time). I mean does anyone else remember how in the beginning of the game, before Tifa, Barret and Cloud went off to another mission, Tifa put Marlene in charge of the bar. MARLENE? She left a child alone in a seedy bar, where there are probably murderers, rapists and thieves everywhere. How the hell is that smart? at the very least she could have found someone trusted to look after her. Being a barmaid she had to have known many people. To me while playing the game, it always seemed to me that she never really was good with kids.

And yet in AC Tifa's like super-mom. In CoT you see that she actually did have few problems (particularly with Denzel but that was only when he first arrived - plus he's a guy, so obviously his hero worshipping attention would fall on Cloud), but if you never read that, and only saw AC, the way she's portrayed as this ultra loving and caring orphan care taker - it's just annoying, to me anyway. I mean isn't that a Sue-ish trait in itself, the whole 'has a great affinity with kids' thing? It feels like AC Tifa is closer to the fanon idealized version of Tifa. Maybe Nomura read a few fanfics? <_<

Um yeah, I'm not sure what my point was. Maybe that even though in FF7 Tifa had sueish traits, in AC they were pretty much blown out of proption. Yet everyone chooses to ignore this and concentrates on Aerith's portrayal, just because she sacrificed her life (even though the game called for it, therefore it was needed). Poor Aerith. It's not easy being a martyr :no:

Both Tifa and Aeris have Sue-ish qualities, EVERYBODY has sue-ish qualities now.

Aeris:
-Attractive
-Has one or more characters attracted to her
-Has exceptional eyes
-Above average intelligence (For the Ancients thing, she knows a lot about it)
-Angsty childhood/Angsty past
-Last surviving members of family/race/species
-Angst in the present
-Abducted (taken away from her home)
-Everyone significant has heard of her (Shinra, Sephiroth, Avalanche)
-Member of a band of freedom fighters
-Dies tragic death
-Children instinctively like her (Marlene)
-Kind

Tifa:
-Attractive
-Has one or more characters attracted to her
-Angsty childhood/Angsty past
-Angst in the present
-Animals and children instinctively like her
-Member of a band of freedom fighters
-Suffers punishment for a crime she did not do
-Goes to prison for it
-Sacrifice anything for the hero
-Is one of two survivors of a tragic incident
-Kind

But despite these qualities, neither of them are Mary Sues, so there. :P

They both have faults, etc., etc., blah, blah, blah. ^_^

My definition of Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu?

Self-Insertion

Mary-Sues are more prominent in fanfiction works, they are the alter-ego of the author themselves. They're everything that the author wished they could be and that usually translates as making their alter-ego impossibly beautiful, magical abilities and most often than not, a very close bond with the way-too-obsessed-over character of their choice with whom they wish they could have a relationship with in their fantasies.

If we're using original works as a basis for Mary-Sues and Gary-Stus, maybe these people should be attacking Nomura himself considering that on more than one occassion he has admitted that he based Cloud on himself. So why is nobody attacking Cloud Strife? The alter ego and self-insertion of Nomura. ;)

The ‘game’ Aerith is a very well rounded character, with distinct personal features, problems of her own and personality that’s not nearly as sugar – sweet as some people like to see her. If one really wanted to test her it’s advisable to explore unlikely choices in the game and see for yourself what’s she like when angered (try refusing to help Fort Condor...). I think that the main problem was that when one side begun hating her and throwing insults at her, her fans started making her into some sort of an angel, living saint that miraculously crossed paths with Avalanche. Both versions ended up as caricatures.
One example not yet touched upon in this discussion was the Tseng scene in the Temple of the Ancients (you know, the moment he’s found wounded by Sephiroth). I’ve seen some people (the haters) using this scene trying to prove Aerith was actually cold and didn’t care about poor Tseng, while others (the fans) were thinking up various obstacles that supposedly prevented her form healing him (meaning that she’d save him if she could). Both versions seem wrong. I wonder why so few people seem to notice the third possibility: that while she obviously cared about him (enough to be saddened by his condition), this didn’t stop her from seeing him as the enemy he was, a guy she’d probably have to fight herself if Sephiroth didn’t chop him before. Seems sound assessment on her part, and this type of thinking doesn’t really set her apart from the rest of Avalanche.

To tell the truth, I think that AC and (especially) MOtP can be blamed for some of this too. In the game much was left unanswered, and some questions were basis for endless discussions (was her death a sacrifice, or just a unnecessary tragedy? would she try to avoid her fate if she knew what’s coming?). This, and all the ‘normal’ characteristics she had, made it easy to see her as a well rounded character if one wished so. But MOtP and AC seem to emphasize the “Angel Aerith” concept; we KNOW she accepted her death (they make her almost a martyr in MOtP), in the Lifestream she can handle anyone except absolutely irredeemable villains, she saves the world twice (displaying abilities far exceeding those she had in life) and is a caring, benevolent presence that can almost be seen as some sort of “Lifestream goddess”. To me, this seemed very different from the Midgar flower girl I remembered from the game, and I think this COULD be one of the reasons behind new batch of ‘Mary Sue’ arguments.

Ah, and I very much agree with Digital Holocaust – the ‘Mary Sue’ concept belongs with bad fanfiction. Applying it to original works only leads to big mess IMO.

Yes, true. Wikipedia has also acknowledged some of the criticisms people apply to the concept:

Really it's hard to tell who is a Mary Sue and who isn't, particularly in original mediums. I mean, can we call every main character a Sue/Stu simple because they're special? But don't they need to be special as the main character, or even as an important character? If the story calls for someone of an ancient race, will we automatically call whoever gets that title a Sue/Stu by virtue of their origins? It's really sticky business when you start applying the whole Mary Sue theory to books/video games etc.

Then again Wikipedia didn't have any problems with giving us their list of which original characters they consider to be Mary Sues/Gary Stus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue#List_of_Mary_Sues

Funnily enough they have Hermione from the movies, not the books lol

Aeris isn't a Mary Sue. Mary Sue's are always polite and soft-spoken. Aeris has an attitude and stood up to Cloud a couple of times. Also, Aeris isn't always cheerful, Aeris has a lonely side, too. Aeris is not a Mary-Sue. Aeris likes to flirt, Mary-Sue's are loved by every character, but don't flirt, it's always everyone flirting with them and they shyly respond.

I think that list is totally off. Aya from Ayashi no Ceres is not a Mary-Sue at all! Neither Aeris nor Tifa are Mary Sue's. How could Aya be thought of as a Mary-Sue. Mary-Sue's don't curse, remember? That list needs some major editing.

I have read a lot of fanfiction with Mary-Sue's. Their has been so many fanfictions where one original character comes into the story, everybody loves them except for one character, but as a result everyone despises the one character who doesn't like Mary Sue and the character that doesn't like them ends up being murdered by the hero after attempting to murde Mary-Sue because they were jealous that the hero liked Mary-Sue. Everybody in the cast of the game/book/show adores Mary-Sue in the fanfiction.

A lot of the characters listed are not Mary Sue's at all.

There are lots of Mary-Sue fanfiction for every series. I've seen so many Mary-Sue fanfics. I've also seen Gary-Stu fanfics.

Whisper, I'll just cover the Compilation-specific bits, since this is the FFVII forum and some might consider them spoilers. ^_^

To digress a bit, I believe the entire Compilation's take on the characters have been influenced by fanon quite a bit. nyrin brought up Cloud's angst and Tifa's superwoman nature, which are two traits that are commonly focused upon in fanon, and have strongly made their way into the Compilation.

While I don't think Cloud is a doofus 100% of the time or that Tifa is terrible with kids, at the same time, AC emphasises these aspects moreso than the game did (I'm assuming Cloud's lack of dorkness was also to keep the drama of the plot thick and tense throughout... I guess the writers didn't want to destroy the main character's seriousness with anymore "let's mosey" jokes :P). It's almost the same as what they did in KH, except I find KH's portrayal acceptable since they were merely cameos that didn't warrant nearly the same depth.

Going back to Aerith, I don't think the Compilation helped in dispelling the Sueishness that surrounds her character either. Particularly in saving the world. The list of Aerith's posthumous achievements, particularly with AC, is very remarkable.

All that said, I'm more focused on accusations of Sueism while we just had FFVII-the-game. Those existed even before the Compilation came out, and while I can understand why some fans feel she's a Mary Sue, at the same time, they don't realise all their irk are based on idealised versions of Aerith and not her actual character at all.

Wow, I need to stay updated with the fandom more. I've never seen this scenario being brought up before this-- I just have to say that I agree with your take on it. Again, I believe Aerith is streetsmart, and healing a proven enemy who will most likely follow through with kidnapping/thwarting you/your group again in the future just isn't smart.

It's kind of the same idea of Aerith and Sephiroth. If Sephiroth keeps proving himself to be a threat to the Planet, and shows no sign of repenting, I can't see Aerith offering to heal him whenever he's injured.

Good point, although I tend to see this as Aerith simply being VERY well-intergrated into the plot. I once joked how Aerith has canon links to a whole bunch of good-looking guys (Cloud, Zack, Sephiroth, Tseng... even Reno has a small scene with her in the church), but I don't see this as a reason to call her a Sue. It's not like they're all in love with her or anything.

It depends on who you ask. For me, I find that fanfic authors sometimes try so hard to make their character not a Perfect Mary Sue, by giving them a slew of imperfections and weaknesses, that the character almost becomes an Imperfect Mary Sue. As Key pointed out, Mary Sues take a lot of forms these days. For me, the biggest signs of a character being a Mary Sue are the traits Alan Bates pointed out earlier.

I would say that Aerith is not a mary sue, she has some qualities of a mary sue but so do all of the other characters and so do most characters in video games and anime. Aerith had her faults, she had such a fun personality though. She loved to flirt with Cloud and she loved to tease. She wasn't always happy and optimistic like when she was sad about being the only Cetra left. Aerith was not perfect in anyway. I think a lot of fans make her out to be somebody who was so perfect and so angelic and holy but that's not the real Aerith.

Aeris is not a Mary-Sue. Some authors turn Aeris into one in their stories, but that is by fan fiction. Aeris is my favorite, but when I see authors portraying Aeris as a Mary-Sue character, making Aeris too perfect and out of character, it gets me upset. Aeris is my favorite and while it's great to see Aeris protrayed positively, completely changing Aeris and making Aeris ultra perfect takes away how cool Aeris's character is. Mary-Sue's make awesome characters turn different. When a real character is changed to appear perfect, it can make you get upset, because they don't know the character correctly.

Mary Sues/Gary Stus are so commonly found in fanfiction because they generally are characters based on the author or their friends/family.

Wow, nine years on and Aeris' death is still a talking point. Makes me wonder whether we'll still be doing this in 2017...

Here's a thought I had recently:

When you look at it, Aeris come across as a character who's amazingly devoid of any imperfections: She's smart, witty, brave, confident, nice, concenred for Cloud, prepared to give her life for the planet and she's in possession of some good looks (well for a PS1 game character....). Indeed, she seems too good to be true......

...but that's just it! Because she seems devoid of any imperfections/character flaws it's easy to see a) the disgust that she inspires among some FF fan circles and B) the emotional devastation involved with her death.
Whilst most of us will be found in the latter group, it makes me wonder: Does characters of ultra niceness really inspire such repulse in people?

As indicated by my avatar, I love my anime. And I've recently been championing anime of the 'geek-gets-the-girl' genre. You know, some geek/rough diamond somehow finds himself stuck together with some woman (usually with some sort of magic powers) and they both somehow manage to overcome whatever adversity throughs their way. Indeed, the pinnacle of this genre is Oh My Goddess where, for the uninitiated, the University student Keiichi finds himself paired up, through a divine contract, with the Norse goddess Belldandy. Like all other GgtG anime, it succeeds on three levels: a) in providing feel-good/WAFF factor B) presenting the idea that an ordinary guy can pick up beautiful woman and c) proving that strength in heart, on Keiichi's part, can succeed.
Lovely notion yes, but numerous women I've spoken to about OMG have condemned it on the notion that Belldandy is submissive: It's not just she seems devoted to Keiichii (understandable when they are bound together by divine contract) but also becuase she's mindboggingly nice.
Do people want nice characters in fiction? No they don't. People are drawn to fiction just because they want to see characters do things that can never be done in real life. When such criteria is established, a crucial connection between audience and character will easily follow

Which brings me back to Aeris: Does her niceness really put people off? Does she not fulfil the necessary demands of the audience?
In fatc, it could be said that Aeris' death, at the hands of Sephiroth, is a triumph of the notion that bishie a$$holes win whilst nice people don't.


Since your post is very closely related to nyrin's thread, I've merged them together. Feel free to carry on. :) ~ Lynn

If Aerith were really a Mary Sue, she wouldn't have stayed dead. She'd have come back to live happily ever after with Cloud. Clearly, she didn't do that.

I don't think that's true. While emotionally she's the least screwed up out of everyone, she does have very obvious flaws and imperfections. That's why I like her. Perfect characters are boring.

In any case, the main girl is usually always accused of being a Mary Sue, even though the main guy himself is usually the One Boy from the Town That is the Only One Who Can Save the Planet because he's spechul for SOME REASON. Yet, I never see anyone calling Cloud/Tidus/Zidane/Squall Gary Stu. How is that fair?

Mary Sue Aerith? Only if they're going by AC standards where everyone is 'sue-ified'. XD Plz. Spiderwoman Tifa? Anti-gravity Yuffie? Shot-in-the-face-but-only-busted-his-glasses-Cloud?

Yeah, I could totally see Aerith as a Mary Sue...y'know, if she weren't DEAD. XD No, if Sephiroth had fallen in love with her--then could I see the Sue-label being used. XD

Same goes for KH Aerith--definitely not a Sue because the story isn't all about her. Nor are her abilities clearly overexaggerated.

Could you point out those flaws of hers? I'm curious because I can't recall any scenes where her flaws were obvious. (Although some might consider her optimism as a flaw :P but I believe we're all talking about some real negatives here.)

The one scene I can think of is where Aerith confronted Barret in the Gold Saucer. And it's been argued before in this forum that she wasn't being tactless then, but was doing so on purpose because Barret isn't the kind who reacts well to cuddly-wuggly TLC. There's merit to that idea, but if I subscribe to it, it feels like it removes the one scene where I think you see some imperfection in Aerith's character.

I'm a huge fan of Aerith, and find her to be very mysterious despite her main character status (we've been bludgeoned to death with details of Cloud and Tifa's childhood, but got barely anything about Aerith's).

But I find it hard to find any canon imperfections in her personality. I've considered her possibly lonely childhood, and the loneliness she showed in Cosmo Canyon; but those are hardly "bad points".

I didn't mean it to come out as in, "Aeris has very obvious bad points" or anything. ^_^; I just think it's obvious that there's more to her character than this pink fluffy princess people tend to paint her as. Like the Gold Saucer scene. She means well and doesn't intentionally want to hurt anyone's feelings, but sometimes she speaks without thinking it through all the way.

Oops, my bad! But we're in agreement on this point. ^_^

I guess for "bad points", I'm referring to "obvious" stuff like Yuffie's thievery. Or Barret and Cid's tempers. Cloud's low self-esteem. One could view Tifa's pessimism and dependancy on Cloud as her "bad points", too.

It's why I like to think Aerith's scene with Barret was a bit of a flub on her part, that of speaking without always thinking things through (I know she's a Cetra, but she IS also just 22 years old). When she asks Cait Sith about her and Cloud's compatibility is another moment I like to see as when she didn't think beforehand how her question would impact Tifa (although that's a bit thornier since Tifa's reaction is optional).

Shame that most haters pounce on those two scenes as reasons to crucify Aerith, though. On one hand, we get people who hate her for being "too perfect", and then we have people who don't do anything but focus on the flaw that she does show.

In all fairness, someone has called Cloud a Gary Stu on Wikipedia. :lol:

But yes, the female characters seem more prone to being criticised as Sues for some reason. I personally think it's due to most of these fandoms being inhabited by females, and women are their own worst enemies, as the saying goes. :whistle:

Yeah, I wouldn't even count that since Tifa isn't forced into the party for that scene. I personally never had her there until someone else suggested I did.

While I'm on the subject, Tifa's reaction was kinda reminiscent of a child's. *Shrugs*

I really enjoyed reading everyone's posts. Good stuff!

To jump in on a question that asked about Aeris' faults or being insensitive(sorry about the vagueness) for me the only other time that I can think of that I thought Aeris could be seen as really insensitive or possibily even trying to one up some one is in the Temple of the Ancients when she asks Cat Sith about her and Cloud and Tifa turns away becuase she doesn't want to hear it but then hears how they are a perfect match.

Of course this will only happen if Tifa is the other party member (I believe) and so if Tifa is not the other party member than that scene really wouldn't be much of an example unless people are annoyed by what I see as a cute moment but that's my opinion.

Then again maybe I am weird because I kind of like that Aeris is different from everyone else in many ways. I don't mind if they seem more or better than a regular human being because I like the ideas of heros and heroines being well FANtasic thus final fantasy.

Now that isn't all teh time and I can be annoyed at Mary Sue type characters just as much as the next person. However to me I think characters can be screwed either way since they can be hated for being to perfect but they can also be hated for not being perfect enough. I think Tifa is a perfect example, she is hated for being seen as perfect when she is not but she is also hated by others for those who see her obvious faults.

I guess I am not a good one to take a side on Mary Sues because sometimes I like the idea of them and sometimes I don't. I think the story and the what there role has a lot to do with how I would feel about a certain character.

In Aeris' case I feel she is so complex because she leans toward a Mary Sue and sometimes it is nice to see someone who in real life wouldn't have the key inside themselves for saving the world or finding a way to be optimistic even in terrible circumstances. I like cheering for girls like her. But I do see her faults which for me makes her more likeable because she overcomes them, hell she even overcomes death and that in my opinion makes her pretty amazing. Darn it I sound like one of those fans you are complaining about don't I?

Gee I really have a point but i don't feel I am explaining myself well :unsure: sorry.

I think that as long as Square Enix allows the world of FFVII to be brought back up in diferent forms there will be more resentment for all of them because of the overanalysis, people's preferences of certain characters, and the unfortunate need by Square Enix to please everyone instead of allowing the characters to be what they are. You can only mess with something so much and then you loose what you made in the first place.

Note:
I posted this topic before but for some reason, it disappeared completely.
Needless to say I was upset having put so much into the post - So what may transpire ahead may be a pale shadow of what came before. Damn....

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I must confess: I am an aspiring author. And being one, I have an intricate understanding of what makes a great plot and fascinating characterisation. When I play the Final Fantasy games I can see that Squaresoft put a lot of time, effort and careful consideration into their creations in order to make them interesting as possible. The payoff is a cast made up of compelling characters which the series is renowned for.

But one thing I've noticed, as an author, the most compelling characters are the type that have quirks within their life. Sure protagonists must be appointed with goal or purpose to fulfil in order to command audience attention but they must possess a range of flaws or contradictions to make them interesting.

In this case, I've noticed a lot of of the disgust emerging from Aeris' detractors seems to be aimed at her kind nature. I find this quite absurd: How can anyone hate Aeris? After all, she's kind, witty, compassionate, gentle, Cheerful, smart, courageous, has good looks (particularly in Advent Children), benevolent...

....but that's just it. Her personality seems totally flawless. As such, a lot of disgust from the anti-Aeris mob seems to be aimed at her character triats: Sure she may be too-good-to-be-true but being so makes her character detestable.

One thing I've noticed is that people are drawn to characters on a fantastical basis: They want to see characters do what that they, the reader, will never do in real life. Consider James Bond: He shoots baddies, saves the world, sips martinis and sleeps with beautiful women. Will anyone else do that type of thing? Of course not. As such, the popularity of 007 and his (somewhat formulaic) movies has endured over the years and seems set to continue.

What appeals me to Aeris' character triats is that they are the type that belong to someone I would like to meet (many of whom I rank amongst my dearest friends). But that's just it: Does anyone want to know about someone that can be met in real life? No, they want to see someone do things that can't be possible in this lifetime. Consider the movie Reservoir Dogs: Sure those crims may be fun to watch but they are hardly the type one would want to meet in real life - thus the enduring appeal of the movie seems set to last for another few decades.

Thus it would seem that just because Aeris has both no quirks and a personality of a good friend that the disgust aimed at her seems justified.
With all of this considered, it made me declare earlier this year, in one of my more cynical moments, that Aeris death seems to be a triumph to the notion that handsome a--holes win whilst nice poeple don't....

Ah, sorry about the confusion, Alchemist.
I believe Lynn merged it with another thread because she felt it was related to that thread's topic. No worries, I can assure you that wonderful post isn't lost. It's right here, actually ^.~

Anyhow, shall I close this one then? Would you like me to add this post to the other thread as well?

Ah, that's where it went - and just when I was beginning to think that I had offended someone.

Yes, I grant my permission to have this (the starting post that is) merged as well


And it is done!

Sorry about the shock, Alchemist, perhaps I should start PMing the people whose threads I merge... but that'll be a lot of PMs. ^^; Rest assured, I was not offended at all. Just my anal instincts getting the better of me.

~ Lynn