"Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we've been
after?"---- Tifa, N.Crater, FF7

One of the most interesting plot twist FF7 had offerred. A lot had overlooked this revealing statement and went on playing the game without any awareness that the "Sephiroth" we were chasing throughout disk one was never really revealed....

Some thought it was one of the clones, particularly Clone#1.

Some thought it was Sephiroth's manifestation in the N.Crater.

Some thought it was Jenova herself.

:lol: Personally, I think it was Jenova. The last discusson makes her the likely candidate.

This is discussing who was chased in Disk One rather than who the main villian of the game is, correct?

I've always thought that what they were chasing was a mental projection from Sephiroth at the Northern Crater. The Sephiroths chased are never seen directly transforming into the different forms of Jenova. The Sephiroth's always dropped something before the different forms of Jenova materialized. In particular, the Sephiroth seen on the Cargo Ship drops Jenova's arm before Jenova Birth appears. If it were Jenova disguised as Sephiroth, then why didn't the forms of Sephiroth transform directly into Jenova? And why did the form of Sephiroth always fly away after dropping something else which transformed into Jenova?

You took that quote from Tifa a little out of context, too. It's a rather interesting passage, especially in light of AC:

(Once Jenova-DEATH has been defeated, the entire party meets with Cloud at the land-bridge. A small black mass floats where Jenova stood.)
Cloud "Jenova's cells..." "...hmm. So that's what this is all about." "The Jenova Reunion..."
Tifa "Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we were after?"
(He shakes his head)
Cloud "I'll explain later. Right now, the only thing I'm thinking about is beating Sephiroth."
Tifa "But Sephiroth is..."
Cloud "He's here. the real Sephiroth is just beyond here." "It's both incredibly wicked and cruel..." "But it's releasing a powerfully strong will from deep within this planet's wound."
(Cloud walks to the black mass and picks it up. The Black Materia.)
Cloud "...The Black Materia is back in our hands." "Now all we have to do is defeat Sephiroth and that'll be the end of it."

Notice that Cloud distinguishes between the real Sephiroth in the Northern Crater and the Sephiroth's they've been chasing. The Sephiroth's they've been chasing are not the real Sephiroth. However, he doesn't say that they were chasing Jenova, either. He says that the primary issue is Jenova's Reunion, but his main goal is still to beat Sephiroth - not Jenova.

He also says that the real Sephiroth is releasing a powerfully strong will from deep within the Planet's wound. I find that particularly interesting, because the Planet's wound is apparantly connected with Geostigma.

The only thing that really makes sense IS a mental projection. I mean, look at what he DID: he floated THROUGH THE FLOOR in the boat, he flew everywhere, he was able to watch Cloud & co watching the flashbacks in the Temple of the Ancients.
If he were Jenova, who had a physical being, would he be able to do those things? And, like Aly said, he always dropped a piece of Jenova right before all the battles, setting them apart

Ye know, the other thing about using this quote as evidence is that Tifa admittedly doesn't know what's going on. She's asking Cloud rather than stating a fact, and Cloud shakes his head in reply, which may indicate that she's incorrect. However, Cloud doesn't answer - he simply says that he will explain later, then he never does.

But it's obvious in that passage that Cloud intends to defeat Sephiroth. Why doesn't Cloud ever talk about defeating Jenova, if Jenova is the main villain of the story? Why does Cloud always talk about defeating Sephiroth, even though Cloud clearly knows that Jenova is somehow involved?

Many people use the claw marks in the hallway of the Shinra building to say that it was Jenova who made the trail of blood rather than Sephiroth - yet there's one big problem with that. The forms of Jenova we see that have a claw during the story (Jenova Birth, Jenova Death, etc.) are all way too big to fit in the hallway where the claw marks are found. There's absolutely no way that those forms of Jenova could fit through the doorways, either. Yet, those are the only forms of Jenova where we see a three pronged claw:



She'd never fit in that hallway where the "claw marks" are found. She's way too big in that form.

Another thing - Palmer saw Sephiroth, not Jenova. Why would Jenova bother to transform into Sephiroth? Cloud would have gone after either Sephiroth or Jenova. He knew how Jenova had been used to create Sephiroth, he knew how Sephiroth wanted to find the Promised Land for Jenova, he knew how Jenova cells were used to create SOLDIERs, etc. Cloud would have had just as much reason to trail Jenova as Sephiroth, so why should Jenova disguise herself as Sephiroth?

The other thing is that you see another manifestation of Sephiroth after defeating Jenova Synthesis in the Nothern Crater. Jenova Synthesis - which I always took to be the final form of Jenova, since Synthesis implies that all her parts have come together - is KO'd in that battle, yet you still meet with a manifestation of Sephiroth afterwards. How could that happen if the manifestations of Sephiroth are really Jenova?

Has everyone voted for a winner in the Contest? VOTE HERE!!

Perhaps they were chacing both Sephiroth AND Jenova, and that in certain circumstances the two of them could combine or interact with one another as one entity, like some sort of weird psycho-metaphysical interaction. Part of the advantage of being exposed to Jenova cells early in life?

i think the sefirot in cd 1 was jenova..because, after we defeat jenova birds, jenova said: " because you are a puppet.." and just before the begining of the batle, sefirot has said: because cloud, you are..and the wa jenova who ended the frase, what do you think?


[The Promised land..i think i can meet here..there...]




MY SITE: http://pobladores.lycos.es/channels/juegos...ierra_Prometida




Cloud x Aeris _ Body & Soul

I can see that as a definite possibility, especially since Sephiroth was utilizing the powers of Jenova. What you suggest is also reinforced by what Daga15 pointed out here:

This shows that Sephy and Jenova were in communication with one another, or perhaps in a symbiotic relationship of some kind. I don't think it necessarily shows that Sephiroth is Jenova, though. If Sephy was really Jenova, then why didn't he transform directly into the forms of Jenova? I still think what they were chasing during Disk One was a mental projection from Sephiroth in the Northern Crater.

Sorry, I've been busy. :lol:

Yep, this one is completely differrent. Though it can complicate the Main Villain Debate.

Keep in mind, that I stressed the fact that the Sephiroth we're chasing was never really revealed. Hence why we have these theories Aly. Showing Sephiroth revealing himself as Jenova would completely nullify this debate. I never said that the theory has no flaws either(One part of it is the Junon encounter). I picked this theory due to the fact that it contains the least flaws compared to the others IMHO.

For example lets have Jenova VS Sephiroth's mental projection.

Though your theory is possible, I'm going to ask how you came up with the theory?? Did you just assume that it's Sephiroth's mental projection when you saw that there are two Sephiroths??(One we're chasing and one in the N.Crater??)

I meant what I said in the first post Aly, the "Sephiroth" we're chasing was never really revealed.

Like I said, it was never revealed....I never disputed the fact that the goal was to beat Sephiroth . It had nothing to do with who they were chasing.

Cloud made that clear:

Cloud "I'll explain later. Right now, the only thing I'm thinking about is beating Sephiroth."

He'll explain it later which is who they were chasing.(Which he never did BTW) But right now, he's only thinking of going after Sephiroth am I correct??

Maybe, if you think Sephiroth is considered an "it" now..

"It's both incredibly wicked and cruel..." "But it's releasing a powerfully strong will from deep within this planet's wound."

I know... I'm just being mean. :lol: Seriously, though, there are flaws in the theory that it was Jenova - I'm just pointing out the flaws. Another flaw would be that Sephiroth is supposed to have a strong will, which would mean that he is in control rather than Jenova. If Sephiroth is in control, that would mean that he is utilizing the powers of Jenova. If Sephiroth is in control, then the chances are higher that it's a mental projection from the Sephiroth in the Northern Crater that they're chasing.

Take the form of Sephiroth that they see in the image of Nibelheim burning before the Reunion. That Sephiroth knew all the details of what Cloud and Zack had done when he burned Nibelheim. Cloud tried to save his mother, and Zack ran out of the Shinra mansion. That form of Sephiroth knew about the picture that had been taken, too. Wouldn't Sephiroth be the one who knew such details rather than Jenova?

I've already given a number of reasons, including the fact that the form of Sephiroth always drops something before the form of Jenova appears. If it is Jenova that they're chasing, why doesn't the form of Sephiroth transform directly into the form of Jenova? Another is that Jenova is too large to fit in the rooms where the trail of blood was found and Palmer saw Sephiroth. Another is what I said about the form of Sephiroth seen before the Reunion that I discussed above. Another is that another form of Sephiroth was seen after Jenova Synthesis got KO'd. All of that makes me wonder how it could be Jenova. The real Sephiroth is in the Northern Crater, so what else could it be? The next logical choice would be a mental projection from the Sephiroth in the Northern Crater.

Exactly... and why would he want to go after Sephiroth instead of Jenova? If Jenova is the main villain of the story and Sephiroth is only being manipulated by Jenova, then wouldn't Cloud want to go after Jenova? If Sephiroth is not the main villain of the story and Jenova is, then Cloud should want to defeat Jenova. If Jenova controls Sephiroth, then defeating Jenova would also result in Sephiroth's downfall. Yet, Cloud wants to defeat Sephiroth himself - not Jenova. Since Cloud wants to defeat Sephiroth, then Sephiroth must be in control. If Sephiroth is in the control, then it's much more likely that the Sephiroth in the Northern Crater controls the forms that Cloud is chasing.

But what was the "it" that we found deep within the Planet's wound? We found Jenova Synthesis, but we also found Bizarro and Safer Sephiroth. Either one could be called an "it", but who was the last boss?

Generally saying, "Sephiroth is in control therefore, he controls Jenova's powers, therefore, the Sephiroth we're chasing comes from Sephiroth himself.

A logical conclusion, yet you forgot one piece when you were branching those reasonings. Are there any indication that these two villains are trying to control each other?? To me, it looks like they're wroking together IMHO.


...and Aly, you're not being mean.:D Don't worry about it. Though I get this funny feeling that you'd take advantage of me not remembering the game quite well. That's not mean, that's cruel and evil. >.<

That's one of the things that doesn't fit in the said theory as I admitted, but you already know that the encounter before that which is the one at Junon. Shows a "Sephiroth" who doesn't recognize Cloud at all. The boy who killed him. The same scene where you found out that he was carrying Jenova's arm am I correct??

No Aly,those are indication that Jenova and the Sephiroth we're chasing might be seperate entities.

What I'm looking for is proof of existance in the game. See, I know Jenova was present in those encounters. You think that the mental projection existed in those scenes because of the unknown entity being shown to us. The main problem is, the unknown entity is the variable in this problem. It never revealed itself, so it could be anyone or anything. The main question is, why did you think that the unknown entity is a mental projection of Sephiroth if it never really revealed itself??

As I stated, the Sephiroth we're chasing was never revealed. If you gonna ask me a question that no one can answer then I might as well throw a question in the same nature Aly...

Was it ever really revealed that the Sephiroth we're chasing is his mental projection?? I think we're on a moot point here, but if you can answer that question then I'd hapilly concede.

Size isn't really accurately portrayed in this game. You've compare their size between the battle scenes and the world scenes, but as we all know, the Cloud we use to roam around the word isn't exactly similar to the Cloud we use in battle...

As for Palmer, we also know that Hojo confirmed that Jenova was roaming around the buidling as well.

Jenova itself began to move away from the Shinra Building.---Hojo, N.Crater

Overall....

Like I said Aly, what you're doing is trying to seperate Jenova and the entity we're chasing. It's not the same as saying that the Sephiroth we're chasing is his mental projection. I already know the flaws in the Jenova theory, what I'm looking for is the support for the Mental Projection one,,,

Aly, I'm not here to dispute the fact of who's in control here. We're here to figure out who exactly we're chasing. Perhaps Sephiroth was actually controlling Jenova. Perhaps he's using her powers to lure Cloud in the N.Crater....but that's another subject. The main argument here is whether the one we're chasing is Jenova or a mental projection am I correct??

Depends on the game's timeline Aly....Was there any indication that Cloud is already aware that Sephiroth became an "it" before that last battle?? I know there some indication that they already acknowledge Jenova as an "it" before the last battle.

Note that I'm emphasizing the question of whether Cloud is aware that Sephiroth became an "it" before the last battle. Not the general fact that Sephiroth became an "it" at the end of the game.

I might be way out here but weren't the final bosses Sephiroth merged with Jenova? :unsure:

Shrouded you bring up a good point about Hojo saying Jenova was moving away from the Shinra building. That suggests that Jenova is still conscious, as does the scene where Cloud and Barret are freaking out when they find Jenova's tank in the Shinra building, they think it's still alive and ask where it's head is :lol:

Now Jenova is the being that caused the Crisis for the Ancients, imitating their loved ones so she/he/it could get close enough to infect them with a virus and she wiped a lot of them out. She was eventually imprisoned until Shinra dug her out years later. Now that she was free again wouldn't she be able to start using her powers once she regained her strength? She has the power to be able to imitate Sephiroth so I think it's possible that she did so. One question I have is that if it was Sephiroth and not Jenova why would a powerful being such as Jenova submit to him? Why would she let him cut pieces of her body off and throw them at people? :lol:


Aly it's true that Hojo said Sephiroth has a strong will but really I don't think it's that strong at all or I think he wouldn't have lost control of himself like that in Nibelheim when he found out about what Shinra had done to him.

I don't really know if it was Jenova or Sephiroth but I have to admit some parts of the Jenova theory make sense, however so do some parts of the clones and the astral projection theory :)

Maybe Advent Children will answer some questions :)

Even in Advent Children Jenova is still around so anything's possible ;)

Shrouded Light

I would agree that they are working together. However, it's commonly perceived that that Jenova was controlling Sephiroth and using him, and that Sephiroth had no control over what happened. Even though that's getting more into who the main villain of the story is, I think the controversy of who we're chasing is involved with who is in ultimate control. Whoever is in ultimate control would most likely be responsible for who is being chased.

*whistle* :rolleyes: I'm vicious! :lol: :P

So you also think it's possible that Sephiroth is dead during the events of FFVII? I noticed your statement that Cloud killed him. :rolleyes:

Yes, I love these contradictions. :lol: Sephiroth not recognizing Cloud would suggest that the form is a manifestation of Jenova. However, how can it be Jenova in the boat? It's distinctly shown that Sephiroth throws the arm of Jenova down as he flies off into the air, which suggests that the form of Sephiroth and Jenova are two separate entities. If Jenova was manifesting as Sephiroth, wouldn't the form of Sephiroth simply transform directly into Jenova Birth?

Also, Jenova wasn't seen by the crew of the boat. The crew member lying in front of the doorway says:

"....the Engine Room... a suspicious..... character..."
"No... there's no way.... that...... not a human..... That thing's not human....."

The crew member says nothing to imply that he saw a monster. His words imply that he saw a human with inhuman capabilities. After the battle, they find the arm of Jenova on the floor. This is the conversation:

Tifa "I've seen this somewhere... before."
(Cloud bends)
Cloud "...Jenova. The arm of Jenova."
Aerith "Jenova... With this thing?"
(The arm vanishes.)
Cloud "So it WAS Sephiroth."

Cloud comes to the conclusion that the figure was Sephiroth carrying Jenova with him rather than Jenova herself even after finding Jenova's arm. If I remember correctly, either Red XIII or Cid also identify the arm as something they saw in the Shinra building if they are in your party. So even though the figure doesn't remember Cloud and they find the limb of Jenova afterward, Cloud still identifies the figure as Sephiroth - not Jenova.

Also, when the boat arrives in Costa del Sol, Rufus says that Sephiroth was seen on the boat. Nothing is said about Jenova being on the boat.

Ah, okay.... good point. :rolleyes: Well, if the Sephiroth we're chasing is not the real Sephiroth, then what else can it be? It *could* be Jenova, but the evidence I've been citing indicates that the forms of Sephiroth we chase and Jenova are two separate entities. If the form of Sephiroth is not Jenova, then what else can it be? We saw the form of Sephiroth go through the floor of the boat, and we saw it fly on several occasions. We also saw it transform into Tifa and back again. We also see the form of Sephiroth in the Temple of Ancients speaking to Jenova:

Sephiroth "Mother..... it's almost time...." "Soon..... we will become one."

How can the manifestation of Sephiroth in the Temple of Ancients be Jenova if the manifestation is speaking to Jenova? Why would a clone be speaking that way to Jenova? If the thing being chased is not the real Sephiroth and it's not Jenova, then what else can it be? I'd say a mental projection from Sephiroth in the Northern Crater is the most logical.

An additional question - are these forms of Sephiroth the same as the Sephiroth that confronts Cloud in AC, saying that it refuses to become a memory? :unsure:

Heheh... okay, good point again. It's never revealed that the forms are a mental projection. However, we know that a form of Sephiroth is seen. We know that it's not the real Sephiroth, coz he's in the Northern Crater with no legs. It's also shown that the forms of Sephiroth do not transform directly into the forms of Jenova, which suggests that the forms of Sephiroth are not manifestations of Jenova. Cloud recognizes the forms as Sephiroth rather than Jenova, even after finding Jenova's arm. If it's not the real Sephiroth and it's not Jenova, then what else could it be? A clone? I don't buy that, either.

My point was that the trail of blood in the Shinra building was apparently done by the form of Sephiroth rather than by Jenova. A similar wake of destruction was seen in the cargo ship from Junon, and the crew member saw a human form with inhuman capabilities. Hojo confirmed that Jenova got away from the Shinra Building, but he didn't confirm that Jenova is responsible for the trail of blood inside the Shinra Building, nor did he confirm that the forms of Sephiroth being chased were in fact Jenova. Cloud specifies that the form of Sephiroth seen on the Cargo Ship was Sephiroth even after finding Jenova's arm, and Cloud also specifies that he was being summoned to the Northern Crater by Sephiroth, not Jenova. So yes, it's said that Jenova moved away from the Shinra building, but how and in what form?

I hope I covered that above. :lol:

I keep bringing up who was in control because I think the one in control would be responsible for whatever is being chased.

Okay... no, Sephiroth is never referred to as an "it" prior to the Reunion, or anywhere else in the game that I can remember. However, - from what Wilhelm has told me - pronouns aren't commonly used in the Japanese language. They just assume you know what is being referred to instead of using pronouns. For that reason, I'd like to know whether the "it" was actually used in the Japanese game. EDIT: I PM'd Wilhelm to ask whether Cloud used the pronoun "it" in the Japanese game, and this is what he told me:

It doesn't specify a 'he/she/it' (although Japanese doesn't really have an 'it' anyway), but since Cloud is talking about Sephiroth in the first line and doesn't really change the subject or bring up a new one, I assume that he's still talking about Sephiroth.


~Fury Brand~

Eeeps, this post is already getting very long! :lol: I'll try to cover any points that I didn't cover in my answer to Shrouded.

Because being disassembled is of no consequence to Jenova. All of her parts come together again at the Reunion.

We don't know exactly what is meant by "will", however. What we consider to be evidence of "will" isn't necessarily what is meant by "will" in FFVII. It could easily be argued, for example, that Cloud has a strong will because he was able to defeat Sephiroth in the Mt. Nibel reactor as a young kid with no Jenova cells in him at the time. Yet, Cloud was rejected from SOLDIER because his will is weak. A "strong will" means in the game that you have the ability to ignore the manipulations of Jenova. Candidates for SOLDIER had to have a "strong will" before they were injected with Jenova cells, which is why Cloud was rejected from SOLDIER. So it's only known that those with a "strong will" can ignore the manipulations of Jenova. What else a person with "strong will" is capable of is unknown.

I hope so! In the mean time, Shrouded and I are gonna play. Shroudster and I are wierd - we do this for fun. :lol: You and others are welcome to join us, if you want. :rolleyes:

I believe Jenova controlled Sephy, "like a puppet". It's just a theory tho ^_^

Sorry about last nite Aly. PC went crazy on me, got disconnected and got mad so I banged my cellphone on to it.

(....)

-__- I wouldn't recommend that.... I mean banging the computer and using your cellphone to bang it with.

(......)

As you can see I'm still braindead, but I'll try my best here. -__-

It is connected to the main villain debate, but as you stated, it only tells you who's responsible for who's being chased. Doesn't actually answer who we're actually chasing.

Yes you are you evil cleris!!!! (and I'm beginning to notice things, evil things!!)

BAH!!! You know what I mean you evil vixen!!! >_<

I agree with you, like I said, this debate never actually accomplished a coherent theory. Like I said, there are things that doesn't fit.

BTW The bolded part, I think it's clear that we came in to a moot point there right??

Or it could mean that the thing is actually not human Aly as it exactly stated.

Timeline Aly, how could that be Sephiroth if the real one is in the N.Crater?? You have to consider the plot flow, one thing leads you to another and then a plot twists comes in and tells you a whole differrent thing. Basically saying Cloud was wrong, in that part of the scene, because it was later revealed that the real Sephiroth is somewhere else...

Or it could be a mental projection as you suggested, but you still haven't given any proof that the said factor actually existed in the game. Therefore, the only choice in those encounters would be Jenova as of right now....

If the the form is not actually Jenova, but if you're suggesting mental projection, then you gonna have to give me something more than an assumption base on a variable.

Like I said, some scene do not fit in to the said theory, but you still lack the proof that a mental projection exists Aly. This scene doesn't fit in to my theory, but that doesn't actually support yours as well. (Like I said, you're trying to separate them, nothing more nothing less)

There's really nothing concrete I can offer, but if you want my inputs on it however. Younotice that paticular scene, you'll see two Sephiroths similar to the time Cloud's self was beginning to split itself.(The part where he was laughing like a lunatic I believe. )

Right now, that's what I'm thinking myself. :unsure:

Aly, I'm not saying it's not Jenova(that's what you're trying to do :P) nor am I saying that it's definitely Jenova, I'm just saying that between the mental projection and Jenova. I would pick Jenova due to the fact that it acknowldeges its existence in the game.

Your interpretation, I think the crew is actually revealing that its not human. Kinda like what Red 13 stated in the Shinra building:

Red XIII: No human could've done this. I'll go on ahead.

...but he did confirmed that Jenova was around in that building am I correct?? Nor did he say anything on who's responsible for those trails of blood at all.(that includes the supposed mental projection am I correct??)

Moot point Aly, like I said, they never revealed the entities' identity. Where in the game did it state that the entity was a mental projection??

I told you about the relevance of a plot twists Aly, and I laready elaborated on who's in charge and who's not. The how and what form was not revealed in the game, but what's the relevance of these things when you compare it your mental projection theory??

Same thing Aly, you're pointing out the flaws in the Jenova theory, but you still lack proof for the mental projection one.

Let's make this simple then, I know Jenova exists in the game. I'm also aware of the flaws.However, can you say the same thing to Sephiroth's mental projection??

That's the reason why I picked the said theory despite the flaws. :)

It only tells you whos' responsible, not the actual chasee Aly..

>__< BOOOooOOooooOO

Yea, I was hoping you'd bring in a translator....I think you already know that this particular scene is very vague. One thing you gotta keep in mind is that context is changed through one's gestures and pauses. Cloud made a series of pauses and gestures as if he's trying to figure this all out himself.

In the script you presented. It is stated like this:

Cloud "He's here. the real Sephiroth is just beyond here." "It's both incredibly wicked and cruel..." "But it's releasing a powerfully strong will from deep within this planet's wound."

Now I don't have a copy, but I remember this particular part being debated as a mistranslation until one actually posted that Cloud actually stated it more like this:

Cloud "He's here. the real Sephiroth is just beyond here."

(He pauses, or he made a hand gesture I believe)

"It's both incredibly wicked and cruel..." "But it's releasing a powerfully strong will from deep within this planet's wound."

I remember replaying it and I was one of the many people who verified it as true. You think you can verify that to me Aly??

Hey, your computer is working now... so banging apparently did something useful. :rolleyes: And no worries - I've learned to expect such things from you. :lol: :P

I actually think there's a good chance he was dead. :P Cloud stabbed him through the stomach before he threw Sephy into the Lifestream, and Sephy received no medical attention before he fell into the Lifestream. As I remember, Sephy was limping as he came down the stairs of the Jenova chamber, which shows that he was still injured. Sephy could easily have bled to death within the Lifestream.

Whether or not it's a moot point, it's also a main point against the idea that Jenova is the chasee. :P

If someone saw a monster, they would say they saw a monster. If it's a monster, it's obviously not human. You would only clarify that something's not human if it could be mistaken for human. The crew member's statement implies that he saw something that resembled a human, but came to the conclusion that it couldn't be human because of its power.

I never said it was the real Sephiroth.

Cloud identifies the last manifestation of Sephiroth as Sephiroth, even after the battle with Jenova Synthesis. Cloud knew at that time that the real Sephiroth was in the Northern Crater, legless. Cloud would also have known by that time that the manifestations were actually Jenova if they were Jenova, yet he still identifies the last manifestation as Sephiroth. And how is there another manifestation of Sephiroth possible after the defeat of Jenova Synthesis if the manifestation is Jenova?

Sephiroth spoke to Cloud telepathically, which shows that Sephiroth has abilities beyond normal sensory ability. Cloud also rose off the ground into the materia tree, which was more likely achieved by Sephiroth than Cloud. Sephiroth also summoned Cloud to the Northern Crater. Sephiroth caused Cloud to split and travel through the tunnels at the end of the game before the final battle where Cloud Omnislashes Sephy. If Sephiroth is capable of those things, why wouldn't Sephiroth also be capable of a mental projection?

If the manifestation and Jenova are separate entities, then the manifestation is not Jenova manifesting as Sephiroth.

Ahhh... that's why you wanted those pics of Sephy splitting!! :lol: :P And how would that support or argue against the idea that the manifestations of Sephiroth are Jenova?

W00t! :D

But where is there evidence that the manifestations of Sephiroth and Jenova are one and the same thing, especially when it is clearly shown that the manifestations of Sephiroth are a separate entity from the forms of Jenova? If the manifestation of Sephiroth does not transform directly into the form of Jenova, that says to me that the manifestation of Sephiroth is NOT Jenova.

All Hojo says is that Jenova moved away from the building. Hojo didn't say anything about Jenova being inside the building. However, we know that much anyway because Jenova was orginally inside the cage, then broke out of the cage. That means that Jenova was inside the building. However, some form of Sephiroth was seen inside the building, too.

Where did it state that the forms of Sephiroth are Jenova?

LMAO!! :lol:

If I remember right, he does gesture with his hand, but how does that change the subject of the sentence? The idea is that the Japanese don't bother to use pronouns when the subject has not changed... so where does the subject change? As I understand it, if no pronoun was used in the Japanese, that implies that the subject never changed.

*WOW*I actually have time than just lurk around in the board. :lol:

<_< Yay....

Actually no... my cousin just turned off the computer and turned it back on. -__-

Perhaps, but he is active in the game Aly.... As I remember. :unsure:

That's not only the main point against Jenova is the chasee. That the main fact against every theory in this discussion. Including your mental projection theory. That is why it's a moot point. As I stated and as I acknowledge:

As I stated, the Sephiroth we're chasing was never revealed. If you gonna ask me a question that no one can answer then I might as well throw a question in the same nature Aly...

Was it ever really revealed that the Sephiroth we're chasing is his mental projection?? I think we're on a moot point here, but if you can answer that question then I'd hapilly concede. ---- Shrouded Light

Bolded part, that is an interpretation Aly. My interpretation is that he's revealing that the thing is not human. The line never commented on the thing's power so how can you be that sure that that's what he was implying??

I never said you did, you gave me a line in which Cloud believe it was Sephiroth. I told you the relevence of the plot twists stating that it's not the real Sephiroth that they were chasing.

Are we actually on disk 3 now?? I remember the mian focus of our debate is identity of the person we're chasing throughout disk 1?? Suppose I say that the one in disk 3 is inconclusive even for the Jenova theory?? Are you again suggesting that it's Sephiroth's mental projection??

You know you still have to prove that the game acknowledges its existance in the game am I correct??

Are you saying that it's a fact that Sephiroth's mental projection exists in the game because of all the other powers he can do rather than showing that the game actually confirms that mental projection actually exists in the game??

I told you that it's a possibilitry Aly, not a fact. I however can tell you that it's a fact that Jenova exists in the game because she was confirmed in it, not implied.

That's you opinion, but I'd pick that theory over the mental projection theory any day Aly. You still haven't given any for the one you're suggesting Aly.

Occam's Razor: There's definite proof that Jenova exists in the game, that cannot be debated. The mental projection one however is a differrent story. :P

I told you already, I know the flaws on mine, so you're not gonna make me budge just by just countering my theory. You need to give me sufficient proof that the mental projection actaully exists in the game before I actually make another move. :P

@__@ I don't remember, but maybe that's something I'd do.

T__T I actually just wanted to give you my inputs on that scene. I told you already that scene does not fit to any theory at all, but I think Deathsin was using that in support for his symbiosis theory. :unsure:

Moot point Aly. I'd say pretty much the same thing for your theory, of course I'm going to stress the fact that you haven't given me sufficient proof that phyiscal manifestation actually exist in the game. I made it simple Aly.

Jenova exist, that cannot be argued, your physical manifestation however is still a differrent story.

Nowhere, but where did it state that the manifestation is Seph's mental projection?? You might as well prove to me whether Seph's mental projection ever existed in the game.

Moot point Aly. You're not gonna make me budge just by giving me the same question. I'll always gonna give you the same thing over and over again unless you give me something differrent. :P

No he said, they don't have an "it"....Coming from his original statement I believe....Unless of course, he said more to it than what you showed. :blink:

It doesn't specify a 'he/she/it' (although Japanese doesn't really have an 'it' anyway)--Willheim

The point is, Cloud cut his sentences midway through the whole thing. He indirectly made an ellipse by pausing between those sentences. It could imply that he left some things out OR it could imply that he's starting another differrent subject:

Main Entry: el·lip·sis
Pronunciation: i-'lip-s&s, e-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural el·lip·ses /-"sEz/
Etymology: Latin, from Greek elleipsis ellipsis, ellipse, from elleipein to leave out, fall short, from en in + leipein to leave —more at IN, LOAN
Date: 1540
1 a : the omission of one or more words that are obviously understood but that must be supplied to make a construction grammatically complete b : a sudden leap from one topic to another

You're trying to apply English rules of grammar to a passage in Japanese.

Further clarification from Wilhelm:

Japanese does leave the subject out of the sentence, but only when it's understood from the context (what's been said before, or what you can see in front of you and thus is obvious you're talking about that, etc). It has been a while, but I can't remember anything that'd suddenly switch the context to Jenova unless there was some visual sign of her [that] Cloud acknowledges. --Wilhelm

The subject was left out, which means that the subject is obvious from what was said before or from what is seen. What Cloud was speaking about before was Sephiroth, and Jenova was not seen. That means the subject is still Sephiroth. And yes, I told Wilhelm about the arm movement and pause. :P

For my reply to the rest of your response, I’m going to take a different route because it seems to me that we keep re-hashing points:

I’ve already said that it is never stated in the game that the form of Sephiroth we chase is a mental projection from Sephiroth in the Northern Crater. However, it is never stated in the game that the form of Sephiroth we chase is Jenova, either. Whether or not you consider the point as moot: Is it true that the game never states that the form of Sephiroth we chase is Jenova?

You keep saying that it is more likely that we are chasing a form of Jenova simply because Jenova exists in the game. However, Sephiroth also exists in the game.

Therefore, we have to look for evidence that either Jenova or Sephiroth produced the manifestations of Sephiroth. I say there is more evidence to suggest that Sephiroth produced the manifestations:

1. It is clearly shown that the manifestations of Sephiroth are a separate entity from the forms of Jenova (Jenova Birth, Jenova Death, etc.). If the manifestations of Sephiroth were from Jenova, then the form of Sephiroth would transform directly into the form of Jenova… but they don’t.
2. The manifestation of Sephiroth changed into the form of Tifa and back again to Sephiroth at the Reunion, which tells us that the manifestation is capable of changing form. Since the manifestation is capable of changing form, it should have been able to change into the forms of Jenova Birth, Jenova Death, etc., especially if the manifestation was produced by Jenova. Instead, the manifestation of Sephiroth always dropped something else which manifested into the different forms of Jenova, which means that the manifestation is a separate entity from the forms of Jenova. Why are they separate entities if they are produced by the same source and capable of changing form?
3. When the manifestation of Sephiroth changed into Tifa, it speaks to Red XIII or Barret to take the black materia to Cloud under the materia tree. Cloud then took the black materia from Red XIII or Barret and handed it to Sephiroth. The manifestation of Sephiroth knew that Cloud did not have the black materia and enabled Cloud to get the black materia so that it would be handed to Sephiroth. Since Sephiroth (not Jenova) summoned Cloud to the Northern Crater, and Cloud handed the black materia to Sephiroth (not Jenova), isn't it more likely that Sephiroth sent the manifestation to Red XIII or Barret to retrieve the black materia for Cloud?
4. Cloud never says that they are chasing Jenova or that they are out to defeat Jenova. He always says that they are chasing Sephiroth and that they are out to defeat Sephiroth. Cloud would be out to defeat the one who is in control. Since Cloud always specifies Sephiroth as the one they need to defeat, that suggests that Sephiroth is in control rather than Jenova. It is more likely that the one in control is the one who produced the manifestations.
5. Cloud says that Sephiroth summoned him to the Northern Crater, which again suggests that Sephiroth is in control. Cloud never says that Jenova summoned him.
5. Sephiroth speaks with Cloud telepathically. So does Jenova, which shows that Sephroth has at least some of the powers that Jenova is capable of.
7. Nomura said that Jenova should have been disappeared when Sephiroth was defeated at the end of the game. (I’ll have to track down that quote for you.) Nomura specified that Sephiroth alone was defeated at the end of the game (he didn't mention Jenova being defeated). Nomura also said that Jenova should have disappeared when Sephiroth was defeated. At the end of the game, Sephiroth was shown to make Cloud split and travel through the tunnels, similar to what happened to Cloud in the Temple of Ancients. Since Nomura says that Sephiroth alone was defeated at the end of the game, this suggests that Sephiroth was capable of causing Cloud to split and hand over the black materia at the Temple of Ancients.
8. This passage from before the Reunion indicates that Sephiroth is in control of those who carry Jenova's cells, which would include Cloud:

9. Cloud said that he gave the black materia to Sephiroth, not Jenova, at the Temple of Ancients. Cloud also said later on board the Highwind that he gave the black materia to Sephiroth in the materia tree. He also said in the materia tree that he was giving the black materia to Sephiroth - not Jenova.
10. Cloud always recognizes the manifestations of Sephiroth as Sephiroth - not Jenova - even at the end of the game when Cloud should have realized that the manifestations were actually Jenova (if they were).
11. The manifestation of Sephiroth is seen again after the defeat of Jenova Synthesis. If Jenova Synthesis is a synthesis of her parts, then she should have been KO'd and incapable of manifesting anything.
12. The forms of Sephiroth are shown not to have an actual physical presence since the form of Sephiroth is seen to pass through the floor of the Cargo Ship from Junon. Since it is does not have an actual physical presence, it is unreal. Since it is unreal, it is an illusion or mental projection or spirit or something that doesn’t exist in reality.
13. That illusion or mental projection or spirit or whatever is shown to be distinct from Jenova because it does not transform directly into the forms of Jenova (Jenova Brith, Jenova Death, etc.).
14. If the form of Sephiroth is distinct from the forms of Jenova, then it is not a manifestation of Jenova.
15. If the form of Sephiroth is not a manifestation of Jenova, then it is most likely not under Jenova’s control.
16. If the form of Sephiroth is not under Jenova’s control, then it is most likely under Sephiroth’s control.
17. If the form of Sephiroth is under Sephiroth’s control, then it is most likely a mental projection from Sephiroth in the Northern Crater.

I've just given you 17 points of evidence to suggest that Sephiroth produced the manifestations and that Jenova did not. So far, you've given me NO evidence that Jenova produced the manifestations other than to say Jenova exists.

Jenova existing in the game does NOT prove that she produced the manifestations of Sephiroth. Sephiroth also exists in the game.

You have to give me evidence that Jenova produced the manifestations. I've given you 17 points of evidence to suggest that Sephiroth produced the manifestations of Sephiroth. Where is your evidence that Jenova produced the manifestations of Sephiroth?

-__- I feel claustrophobic right now. You're not giving me much room to breathe huh Aly??

*evil grin*

Just answer the questions, dear. :rolleyes:

T__T I'm gonna tell Carla you're picking on me again.

*sits back in Raist's rocking chair, waiting for an answer*

*rocks back and forth, back and forth*

oooooookkkkkkkkkkk... anyway backs on topic. <_< :/

I'm gonna post this brief explanation on the whole Sephiroth/not Sephiroth pursuit, Jenova and Sephiroth in Northen Crater thing. Ok here it goes...
*takes a deep breath*

5 years ago

The Nibelhiem Incident. Cloud manages to throw sephiroth into the lifestream. He's presumed dead.

5 years to beggining of game

Sephiroth flows through the Lifestream for all this this time gathering the knowledge of the Ancients. It is through this means that he learns of Meteor.

Jenova is moved to the Shinra building.

Zack and Cloud reach Midgar after 5 years of experimentation. Zack dies saving his friend.

Present Day

While at the Shinra Building attempting to rescue Aeris. Sephiroth summons Jenova and the other clones. Sephiroth transmits his will upon Jenova controlling it and making it appear as himself. He/It kills the Shinra president. Sephiroth's ability to transmit his will is probably an effect of the Lifestream.

You fight a piece of Jenova every time you encounter him. There was nothing else there with him/it. Sephiroth dropped a piece of the now controlled Jenova to fight Cloud and co.

Sephiroth is given the black materia.

When you encounter Sephiroth in Northen Crater he doesn't run. He turns towards you and you take on Jenova death. Once defeated the Black Materia is back in your hands suggesting that the whole time it was Jenova you were pursuing not the physical manifestation of Sephiroth.


Questions anyone?

Yes. :rolleyes:

Where's the evidence that Sephiroth summons Jenova and the other clones?

Where's the evidence that Sephiroth transmitted his will upon Jenova, controlled her, and made it appear as himself?

How do you know it was Sephiroth who killed Pres. Shinra and not Jenova? And what makes you think that transmitting his will is an effect of the Lifestream?

Actually, you encounter Sephiroth a number of times without fighting Jenova - for example, in the basement of the Shinra mansion in Nibelheim, in the Temple of Ancients, in the Sleeping Forest, and before the Reunion. Sephiroth does drop a piece of Jenova before each battle, but how do you know that Sephiroth is controlling and not vice versa?

We know it's not a physical manifestation of Sephiroth that we're chasing because Sephiroth is physically in the Northern Crater with no legs. However, there's different interpretations about what is being chased. Some think that the manifestation of Sephiroth is a Jenova clone, some think it's a manifestation of Jenova, and some think that it's a mental projection from Sephiroth in the Northern Crater.

DAMN YOU CRETINS!

STOP STEALING MY ROCKING CHAIR, THAT"S NOT THE COLLECTIVE CLERIS ROCKING CHAIR IT"S RAIST"S ROCKING CHAIR.

*sigh*

Frankly i disagree with you both. IMO it's a mixture of both the clones and Jenova.

I haven't read all your previous posts because frankly i'm a lazy as with little time on my hands so please excuse me if i repeat several points you have already covered (to both Aly and Shroud)

Ok we definately see the clones throughout disk one. Let's face it that's who the guys in the black cloaks are, that's who we chase across the continents. When Dio gives a hint that Sepiroth was recently here and is heading to Gongaga we always hear that they were wearing a black cape, the exact characteristic of a Sepiroth clone, in fact it's their only identifiable feature. For this reason it makes sense in some regard that we are certainly at several points chasing one of the many Sepiroth clones and most likely a combination of several at different times.

However this does not account for the appearance of what is certainly Sepiroth at some points and his rather stunning abilities. In particular flying and becoming transparent. Now then the only possible explanation for this is that Jenova is at work, yet i do not believe that it is just some mental projection from Jenova in the Northern Crater. Foremost what proof do we have that Jenova has the ability to project such a thing that far? We simply don't know and that's not good enough for me.

On the other hand this all occurs around the time of the Jenova Reunion and in fact it is inevitably what draws us to the Northern Crater in the first place. The Jenova reunion means that all the pieces of Jenova are returning to become one again (presumably). Now you may notice that at the times where we fight Jenova or her arm or leg or whatever it is,there is always a Sepiroth clone around somewhere, how do we know then that the clones are carrying these pieces around with them and at times, through the will of Jenova or Sepiroth depending on your beliefs, it creates an illusion of Sepiroth for the party and otehrs and then what we fight in actuality may very well be just one piece of Jenova. This is what seems to make sense to me.

As for the true villain i can only believe that it is Sepiroth with Jenova on a leash. I'm too tired to go into the finer aspects of my beliefs but my main problem with them working together or Jenova being in control is that Sepiroth's goals and thus the antagonistic events of the book do not follow what we are told are Jenova's motives. Sepiroth is not attempting to destroy the world but that, we are told, has always been the intention of Jenova. It moves from planet to planet destroying each one. Yet Sepiroth only wants to wound it badly enough to take in the lifestream and become a god. Where does Jenova fit into these plans?

Good day

*TAKES BACK ROCKING CHAIR and rocks back and forth back and forth*

But don't you ever wonder where Jenova went after breaking out of the Shinra building. Sephiroth managed to control it and make it shift its form to appear as himself.

Remember Sephiroth tells us that "The ability to change ones looks and memories is within the power of Jenova".

A black cape is no proof that it was a clone since Sephiroth (or the Jenova Sephiroth) has one too. But a clone is possible. Unlikely however since Dio talked to Sephiroth about how he was heading to the Gongaga area. (This is seen in Dio's apology to Cloud after the chocobo race).

No, no you're missing my point.

I'm not saying that he is a clone BECAUSE he wears the cloak, as though that signifies him as Sepiroth, it's because that's ALL we hear. All the clones wear LARGE black cloaks that cover them entirely because they do not look anything like the real Sepiroth, they are clones only in name. Along the journey to the Norther Crater whenever something happens we always see clones in their black capes and references to them such as Dio's. In Gongaga we also see Sepiroth clones. It's obvious then that technically at some times we chase the clones.

However there are also other times where we are certainly after Jenova or parts of her as i mentioned in my above post.

But the clone seen by Dio is the only one with a number on him. Where do we see or hear about other manifestations of Sephiroth with a number on him? And why did that one clone with a number on him look like Sephiroth when all of the other clones looked like the black caped clones in Nibelheim, the Temple of Ancients, and the Reunion? The numbered clones in Nibelheim looked nothing like Sephiroth and were hardly able to speak. Cloud never mentioned seeing a number on the Sephiroth's he encountered. Palmer didn't mention seeing a number on the Sephiroth that killed Pres. Shinra. Given that Cloud mentioned all the numbers he saw on the clones in Nibelheim, wouldn't he mention numbers if he saw them on the manifestations of Sephiroth?

I'm not talking about the manifestations. I said in my above posts that i believe those manifestations are a result of Jenova (or parts of Jenova) creating illusions for the part controlled be Sepiroth. The clones carry those pieces, we always see men in black capes around at those moments.

I don't think you've quite understood my post.

Nor should he, again i think you might want to re-read my original post.

Ofcourse he would but those manifestations ARE NOT CLONES. That's not what i'm saying. The clones are almost what gives the party clues. We chase the "black cape" the black cape of the clones that Dio mentioned. When we went to Gongaga after that Jenova was nowhere to be seen but the men black capes were.

No, this is what you said:

That sounds to me as if you mean we are chasing clones.

Where did we see the black cloaked clones in Gongaga? We only saw them in Nibelheim, the Temple of Ancients, and at the Reunion. We also saw the manifestation of Sephiroth in those places, too, which would indicate that the manifestation of Sephiroth was a separate entity from the clones.

So if you don't think the manifestations of Sephiroth are clones, you think they're Jenova? If the manifestations of Sephiroth are from Jenova, then why does the manifestation of Sephiroth have to drop a piece of Jenova for a form of Jenova (Jenova Life, Jenova Death, etc.) to materialize? Why doesn't the manifestation of Sephiroth just transform directly into a form of Jenova?

Not true. You forget the guy in the pipe at sector 5, Midgar. He keeps going oooooooohhhhhhh aaarrrrrrrggggggg and yadda yadda yadda. He also has a tatoo. He is clone number 2.

The Sephiroth seen in disk 1 and up to the Northen Crater in disk 2 is Jenova.

Evidence

Where the hell did Jenova go when Sephiroth came and made a kebab out of President Shinra? And could Sephiroth get there stuck in the Northen Crater incased in materia? It couldn't have been the clones. Cause from what we've seen of them they can't tell between their asses and their heads.

When you fight the Jenovas, Sephiroth always seems to drop a piece of it.

After Aeris' death and the battle against Jenova Life, Sephiroth's sentence is finished by Jenova. "... because you are a puppet."

The Jenova death battle starts after Sephiroth swings his sword in your direction and when its defeated the Black Materia is back in the hands of the party.

Okay, but my main point is that we don't see clones in Gongaga.

The Sephiroth seen in the Shinra mansion said, "Jenova will be at the Reunion. Jenova will rejoin the Reunion becoming a calamity from the skies." If the Sephiroth manifestations are Jenova, why is the Sephiroth manifestation speaking of Jenova in the third person? From what he says, Jenova headed directly to the Northern Crater from the Shinra building.

Doesn't that mean that the manifestations of Sephiroth are a separate entity from Jenova? If the manifestations are Jenova, then wouldn't they transform directly into Jenova without Sephiroth having to drop a piece of it?

And Sephiroth also drops something that transforms into Jenova Life. Again, it appears that the form of Jenova is separate from the manifestation of Sephiroth.

Okay, here's the one instance where Sephiroth does not drop something before the battle with Jenova. However, this same manifestation of Sephiroth was cutting down the clones on their way to the Reunion. Cloud also says after the battle with Jenova Death that they have to beat Sephiroth in the Northern Crater, not Jenova. The manifestation of Sephiroth seen before the battle with Jenova Death also calls Sephiroth the master of those who carry Jenova's cells. Cloud also says after the battle with Jenova Death, "He's here. the real Sephiroth is just beyond here." "It's both incredibly wicked and cruel..." "But it's releasing a powerfully strong will from deep within this planet's wound." In our earlier discussions, we determined that Cloud's speaking of Sephiroth in that passage. At the Reunion, Hojo also says, "Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the Lifestream; he wants to maniplate the Clones himself.", which would indicate that Sephiroth is in control rather than Jenova.

I already stated this earlier. Sephiroth is the one in control and the manifestation we see of him is Jenova but it is under the influence of Sephiroth's will. He can control its actions and appearance.

It was Sephiroths mind we saw in disk 1... just not his body.

Okay, I would agree that it's Sephiroth in control... but why must his form be a manifestation of Jenova? If Sephiroth is in control and has the powers of Jenova, wouldn't he be able to create the manifestations by himself?

Every bad guy has a limit

1. Cloud never says that they are chasing Jenova or that they are out to defeat Jenova. He always says that they are chasing Sephiroth and that they are out to defeat Sephiroth. Cloud would be out to defeat the one who is in control. Since Cloud always specifies Sephiroth as the one they need to defeat, that suggests that Sephiroth is in control rather than Jenova. It is more likely that the one in control is the one who produced the manifestations.
2. Cloud says that Sephiroth summoned him to the Northern Crater, which again suggests that Sephiroth is in control. Cloud never says that Jenova summoned him.
3. Jenova speaks to Cloud telepathically at the Death Scene. Sephiroth speaks with Cloud telepathically at the Reunion, which shows that Sephroth has at least