Due to an overflow of response concerning Ginny in the H/Hr shippers thread, I decided to open another thread, this one completely devoted to discussing Ginny and her character. What you like and don't like about her, what you hope to see from her in the next book, etc. So go at it everyone!

(If this isn't alright, Mods, please close)

Quoted from your other thread.

You didn't really read my comments at all. Ginny did get called on for by that--McGonnigal. And let's face it, it was funny. You want me to draw a parallel?

Remember Cloud and Aerith's date--you know--the one you can mess up and have Aerith end up slapping Cloud, the King and punching the Dragon across the screen? Not nice, but it sure was funny, wasn't it? Would you say it warrants her being called a bitch? Same situation here. It wasn't nice of Ginny to do that, but it sure was funny, since the twit pretty much provoked her.

I swear, I think some people are determined to make Ginny out to be a sue when she isn't. If you want to know why Harry doesn't think negatively of her--it's because he's falling for her and the books are through his point of view. So if you noticed a sort of protective glow around Ginny--it's because Harry doesn't focus on her negative traits.

Seriously now, if Ginny were a Sue, she'd have been made prefect, she'd have been taken along with Harry's quest at the end of the book, no questions asked; she'd have top marks like Hermione, and all the boys would be lined up to look at her. Instead, what is she?

She's pretty and fairly popular. She's got a mean streak, nowhere near the twins, but formidable enough, and a short temper--something we can pretty much declare a Weasley trait. She's pretty athletic, but it wasn't natural genius--she had to work at that--so that can't be sue-ish. The only person who lets her get away with murder is Slughorn. He was set up within a few paragraphs of his introduction as being known to play favorites--that's certainly not her fault.

So what's the problem here? What more could you possibly want? I've mentioned several times that since the books are from Harry's POV, we're not gonna see him bashing Ginny because he thinks she's wonderful. Need proof? Check back earlier in the series before Harry and Cho hooked up.

Cho = pretty, popular, athletic, smart (ravenclaw house vouches for this), etc...
After the breakup--emotional, manipulative, poor character judgement...

See my point?

But if I recall correctly, the reprimand fell short because wasn't McGonagle (how the freak do you spell this woman's name? Can't remember!!) laughing at the time too, so her chastising wasn't really much of one.

Actually, no, she wasn't. McGonnigal was very irritated according to my book, and was telling Ginny off. It was Harry who was laughing because they won the match, Zacharias was a prat, Ginny got him, and Ron's confidence was back through Harry's trick.

I used to love Ginny's character. I really did. She was quiet, relatively normal (for a Weasely), kinda cute, I loved that she danced with Neville in GoF. I was actually rooting for her and Harry to get together, slightly, because I thought it was cute.

Then suddenly in Book 5, the warning sirens start going off in my head. Book 6 comes around and I can't stand her anymore. I'd rather not go into the details as I've been trying to forget 90% of Book 5 and Book 6, but I'd like to answer some of Inuyatta's statements. :]

But my problem with it, and which I think forces her quite literally into the hole that is "canon-sue" is that J.K. Rowling is purposely trying to make her into the "ideal girl" for Harry. It's not just Harry that doesn't see her negative traits, it's everyone. No one chastises her (or granted, Hermione) for calling Fleur "Phlegm". I personally like Fleur and think she's quite admirable, but hey, I know that not everyone agrees. However, I don't think she really quite warrented all the name-calling. >___>;

No, actually, I disagree. If she had been taken along with Harry's quest at the end of the book, it'd have made it slightly more agreeable to me. Instead, Harry pulls a Peter Parker on us (see end of first Spiderman movie). He's doing it to "protect" her. Honestly, that makes me roll my eyes. Poor Hermione doesn't get the same consideration. And all the boys are lining up for her. Remember the constant string of boyfriends she had?

The twins are mean, they're mischievious. They don't play their tricks out of malicious intent. Ginny does do some things which can be seen to have malicious intent. I don't quite recall where it's said that she worked at her Quidditch skills, but I'll trust you on that statement. However, Slughorn lets her get away with it because she is so dang impressive. He takes favorites with her because she was characterized to be great. Slughorn specifically takes "especially talented" students "under-his-wing". If she was anything less than extraordinary she would not be there.

This isn't totally from Harry's POV, although it is somewhat. If it was in Harry's POV, it'd be "I walked down Diagon Alley--," etc. It'd be first-person. And honestly, Cho's characterization was flawed from the beginning--and in my opinion it's none of the character's faults. Cho was too perfect in the beginning--I can totally admit and see that. However, when she sticks up for her friend (flawed friend as she may be), she's kicked out and scorned. Harry sticks up for his friends (flawed friends as they may be) and gets lauded.

Honestly, I think this is my major problem with Rowling's writing and it's that her characterization of female characters is very often uneven and heavily flawed. Although I think her writing is very entertaining and I like quite a few of her characters, as book 6 came around and her interview came out with her views on different characters, it was hard for me to say that she wasn't some kind of fanfiction writer.

Hermione is supposed to be insecure, fussy and not the most attractive girl. She is, with a side of "witchy" [excuse the pun, but I'd rather not curse]. Hermione always seems to be getting into a fight with Ron in every book and we're supposed to believe that she's jealous of other girls with him now? [Don't get me started on Ron's characterization].

Cho--well, she's maligned now. Everyone seems to hate her. And as I said before, when she sticks up for her friend, her actions are "terrible". When someone else sticks up for a friend, it's "laudable".

Fleur, who is technically one of the stronger (-est?) witches in the book, seeing as how she was Tri-Wizard Tournament participant. Another name she goes by is "Phlegm" and she is 'haughty'.

And then we come to sweet little Ginny.

A quote from J.K. Rowling

She's "tough," but not in an unpleasant way. She's "very warm and compassionate" and an "ideal woman for Harry." Harry and her are "equals".

I don't see a flaw in this whole passage. o_O;

And that's my issue with Ginny Weasely, Rowling and most of the female cast of Harry Potter (I know I left out Tonks, the teachers and Molly Weasely, but uh, don't really know them very well. XD)

Ginny certainly splits the crowd...

I like her. And probably no amount of evidence against the fact that she is or isn't nice will change that for me. I liked her in the 6th book the most because of her and Harry which I kinda liked.

She's a tough girl who isn't a pushover which is always nice to see. She helps her friends in the Department of Mysteries, so she stayed faithful even though it was very dangerous (I think she broke her ankle?).

I don't have as much to say on this as other people because I try to avoid in depth discussions. I usuaully get proved wrong.

and I like Ginny cuz she likes Luna :lol:

Well, honestly--she has to write Ginny up as Harry's ideal NOW, rather than during the final book where the final showdown takes place. And you are mistaken, her negative traits are seen and noted by the cast, if not by Harry. And really, if you're gonna get mad at Ginny for talking badly about Fleur, you're gonna have to be mad at Molly and Hermione as well. In fact, you ought to be mad at Fleur for talking badly about Tonks who was going through a rather trying time herself. And I LIKE Fleur. But I'm certainly not going to hold Ginny to a double standard.

But then she would have been one of the ultra-sues that ultimately helps the hero save the day. And frankly, just because Harry pulled a Spiderman, how is that Ginny's fault? He wants to protect everyone--in case you forgot, Harry doesn't want Ron or Hermione to go with him either, but they just talked right over him. Don't tell me that Hermione doesn't get the same consideration when I can pull a quote from the book telling otherwise.

And no, the constant string of boyfriends--didn't exist. In her entire dating history, Ginny has had 3 boyfriends. In 2 years, she has had three boyfriends total. That means each one was fairly long term for a teenager, and the last of the relationships isn't really over--more on pause.

The twins aren't mean, but Ginny is? Clearly we must be reading different books. The meanest things she did in the book was to hex Zacharias for badgering her about that horrific fight at the end of OotP, which involved the death of someone she really cared about and was NOT HIS BUSINESS. Also, it was a set up so that she would be introduced to the Slug Club. Oh, and she crashed into the same prat, for insulting her, her brother, Harry...screw it, he was trying to humiliate the entire Gryffindor Team in front of the whole school. Do you honestly believe the twins would have stood for that, had they still been in the school at that time? The same twins who, with Harry the previous year, teamed up to beat the shit out of Malfoy who was insulting their families? It was provoked and frankly, Zach got off lucky.

Also, I'm guessing you aren't fond of the Weasleys too much, because in case you forgot to notice, Ginny is the 7th child and only girl in several generations. Don't you find that a little unusual? And funny enough, Voldie even notes something special about the number 7 in the magical world--this is Jo foreshadowing--sure, she was slow to do it, but like she said, she wanted Ginny's character developed kinda in the background until Harry finally noticed just how wonderful she really was. She's been setting up H/G since book 1! I guessed that the minute I read that she found train stations, King's Cross in particular, to be especially romantic since that's where her parents first met! Naysayers complain that Ginny's development was too sudden, when in reality, they weren't paying close enough attention. The clues were there, all you had to do was notice them. If Ginny were a Sue, our attention would not have been diverted from Ginny's every appearance for the first four books--she would have taken over the story itself! But no...Ginny never does that. Hell, even in the so-called character-raping HBP, Ginny still doesn't take over the story.

Apparently you must have skipped over the last half of your quote there.

If Ginny were indeed a Sue, don't you think she would have been just oh-so-perfect for Harry from the very start? Y'know, back at 10 and 11 when she was moisturizing her elbows with butter? :lmao:


Honestly, I don't mind if people hate H/G, but please don't hate it because you don't understand Harry or Ginny.

And as for Hermione never being jealous of other girls and Ron...did you read Goblet of Fire, perhaps? Y'know, particularly the parts where Fleur is amicable to Ron?

I don't get it. The rest of the Weasleys can be mischievous, short-tempered, impatient and attractive, but Ginny cannot? Fleur can get away with talking negatively of Tonks(who's exceptionally mournful and upset) behind her back, but Ginny can't do the same to Fleur out of exasperation of being spoken down to like a toddler?

I swear I don't understand fandom sometimes.

Wesley Crusher from Star Trek is a canon-sue. Ginny is not.

People have to start understanding what the term Mary Sue has grown to mean. It's not just a perfect character, like the original Mary Sue from the Star Trek fanfiction bearing a character of the same name. It's actually quite a lot more complex than that. Here's a little information on it for those who don't know.

I carefully went through this site's description and found that Ginny shares a lot of the traits that are listed:

1) Characters labeled as a "Mary Sue" have what are seen as exaggerated and annoying (and sometimes impossible) levels of superiority, especially in comparison to either the other characters, real people who are in the same fields or situations, or both.

2) It is often said that even characters that share a great number of these traits can still not (be considered to) be a Mary Sue, if the writer is skilled or careful enough not to over-romanticize or over-idealize the character in question.

And yet JK Rowling has random people on the bus (students and Slughorn) who just happened to be talking about how amazing and popular everyone thinks she is... Can't this be considered an over romanticization?

3) Characters most commonly labeled Mary Sues are often characterized by their unusual and dramatic traits and experiences, their similarity to their author or their author's ideal person, and, most especially, the trait of extreme superiority in comparison to other characters.

4)Those labeled Mary Sues normally have exceptional physical and personal characteristics, including unusual and (typically) tragic backgrounds.

Not tragic, but unusual, as JK Rowling herself said in an interview claimimng that there's something special about Ginny's birth, as she's the seventh child of a seventh child or some stupid shit like hat.

5)They may have uncommon eye or hair colors

6) They may have exotic names, pets, or possessions

7) they may merely have hobbies or features that the author finds exotic, high-class or somehow admirable.

8) Young Mary Sues often have skills or accomplishments that are substantially greater than those of other characters their age and of the majority of people their age in the real world.

9)They are nearly always exceptionally attractive, with said attractiveness often being described in great detail and typically noticed frequently by the other characters.

10)Characters said to be Mary Sues are generally heavily praised by the author and especially other characters. If the Mary Sue has flaws or limitations, they are either minor and/or endearing

Yes before other start whining that, say, Harry has a lot of these same traits too, let me just say this: yes, I know. Harry is a gigantic Gary Stu, to which I chock up to bad characterization by the writer. But we're not talking about Harry, we're talking about Ginny - and yes, it seems that she's quite a Sue. Remember, Sue's aren't always perfect sweethearts. They can be bitches too, and often bitchy Sues' bitchiness is treated as something endearing, or, as JK Rowling said, "gutsy"

There's a sue for all parts of the spectrum, so basically, there's no pleasing the anti-ginny crowd. By the logic of that post, just about every single character in the series is a Sue or Stu of some sort. :lmao:

1.) She is superior to whom in what exactly?
2.) Pansy dropped Ginny's name and beauty to test for Draco's reaction. That was like...a whole sentence that was used to bait for a reaction. I'd hardly call that everyone.
3 and 4.) Example plz? Ginny certainly wasn't characterized by being the seventh child because so many people overlooked that fact, apparently. Voldemort didn't even start setting up the allusion to the importance of the number 7 until book 6.
5.) Red hair like everyone else in her family, plus Susan Bones--and brown eyes are unusual?
6.) Ginny is exotic compared to Cho, Hermione, Albus Percivul Wulfric Brian Dumbledore? :lmao:
7.) Well if they're meant to be likable, then they ought to have likable traits, no?
8.) What does she have exactly? She just barely survived the ordeal with Tom Riddle, which was a set up for book 6.
9.) Psst--we only started noticing more because in the 6th book, Harry starts noticing her more. And the book is still mostly told from his viewpoint. Ever notice the shit he doesn't pay much attention to tends to come back and bite him in the ass later on? Like the mirror that Sirius gave him? Or all that junk that happened in book 4?
10.) Heavily praised like Hermione, and Lily, etc...shit, everyone in this series is a Sue still.

I have yet to see Bitch!Ginny outside of her fight with Bastard!Ron. ;D

Man...I swear this is Aerith Defense all over again at FFForums. -_-

Well geez, if she pulled a stunt like that, I think a lot more people would be irritated than just little ol' me. Honestly, I don't see why a person has to be another's ideal. Why couldn't Harry love Ginny as she was instead of who she is now? It's like, "Hey, Ginny isn't enough for Harry right now, let's totally power her up, so she can be totally equal and perfect for Harry!" I personally don't like relationships where the people are exactly perfect for each other--it bores me, but that's just my opinion. :]

I don't recall that ever really happening and even if noted, what about being pointed out or punished for said actions?

Excuse me, but I'm really offended by what you just said. If you had read what I wrote, I said:

I included Hermione and just because I did not address Molly in the passage does not mean I didn't get ticked at her too for doing that. And see--Fleur's characterization is supposed to be somewhat haughty. I see it as in-character and others note and act upon this conclusion (Molly's lamentation over her suppositions on Bill's future and that he was going to be married). Fleur's had her moments where she's ticked me off as well, I never stated that she didn't. I think all of the characters have annoyed me before and that's perfectly natural. However, in no way am I treating Ginny Weasely with a double standard and it really offends me that you would say that about me.

You don't have to be an ultra-sue to help someone win a battle. Is Aeris an ultra-sue for helping the hero save the day? Ditto Tifa or Yuffie? I never stated that it was Ginny's fault, only that I find your reasoning (that if Ginny was a sue, she'd have been taken along with Harry) flawed.

I wish I've had 3 boyfriends in two years. Gee, I wish I had a boyfriend before. XD

And how old is she? I was never clear on that, but I always thought it was around 15-16?

Haha, this is starting to sound like the LTD. That frightens me greatly. :ermm:

And I'm not quite sure what you're reading from my passage. I never, ever, stated that Ginny was mean. I was just disagree with your statement that the Twins are "mean". I don't see the twins as mean, for the most part--nor do I see Ginny as mean for that matter. I think they both have tempers, yes, but I don't see Ginny exactly being punished for everything. I do believe the Twins were quite the troublemakers and treated as such. :]

I am reminded of Zidane and the World Cup. XD

Just because someone insults you doesn't mean you should crash into them. I get insulted all the time--but does that mean I beat up everyone who insults me and all who I hold dear? Quite the opposite. XD

Thank you for guessing and assuming wrong. I'm quite fond of the Weasley Clan, thank you very much. And is that supposed to make me happier with her or something? Oh yay, she's even more special.

And this is your opinion. I liked Ginny's characterization in Book's 1-4. I didn't like the way her personality was developed in book 5 and 6. I just don't see what's so "wonderful" about what I consider to be a "new" Ginny. I liked the one from Book 1-4 better, to be honest.

A perfectly fine character can be developed into a Sue with a bit of work. No matter how many flaws you start out with or how you "grow," if the flaws suddenly melt away seemingly into the background and you're left to admire how absolutely fabulous a character is, I disagree.

It's all in the eye of the beholder. Everyone is allowed their own opinions, are they not? I never, ever, stated that I "hate" anything. I don't mind Harry/Ginny, but I just don't really enjoy the way it was developed or how it's playing out.

I never said she can't be. Those are good flaws. But when those flaws get glossed over and totally overshadowed by everything that is "WONDERFUL" about her that's the beginnings of a canon-sue.

And Inuyatta, I wish you would be more polite in your post. I disagree with your opinions, but I'm not flaming you nor implying in anyway that you are not knowledgable about the subject. I wish you would treat my post with the same respect.

I'm not insulting you personally, I'm actually referring to just about everyone who generally thinks Ginny is a Bitch!Sue. But when you've been through this debate god knows how many times, it's hard to not go right back into the mode.

First off, I don't mean to come off as harsh, but hey, when you get nothing but 'I hate Ginny!Sue', you feel a bit outnumbered and it's hard to keep up with all the shtuff.

Fair point, you personally aren't holding Ginny to a double standard thus far, but your argument is almost mirror image to posters I've seen that do. Sorry for jumping the gun then.

I know that more people would have bitched if Ginny had gone with Harry. Most people are already furious that Ginny got as much page-space as she did. I don't mind it myself, I'm actually hoping that Ginny's gonna have her own sideplot with Neville and Luna, because I feel if anyone got cheated in the sixth book, it was Neville and Luna. It may be flawed to you, but since the definitions of Mary Sue's are ever expanding, it's actually not. Ginny would have then graduated into the SuperKickass!Sue in the eyes of her haters and wanking would erupt.

And three boyfriends in the space of 2 and a half years is not so amazing, if not for the fact that each relationship lasted as long as her's did.

Also, she's a year younger than the main trio.

You said you think the twins are merely mischievous, while Ginny is sometimes malicious. The only time I've seen her trying to deliberately piss someone off is when Ron nearly called her a slut. I can't say she could be blamed for that.

You know, if you hadn't said 'World Cup' I would still be pondering how the monkey-tailed hero of FF9 got into this. XD

No, it doesn't, but then again, Ginny is flawed, and she gets called out for it. By McGonnigal. I'm willing to bet Ginny even got detention for it, but Harry, infatuated nut that he is--do you think he's going to notice that little detail when they just won the match and he likes the girl? Like I've been saying, it may not be exactly first person narrative, but it is limited-perspective. We get the gist of things through the Harry-lens. This is why everything Snape did in the books was seen as negative even though it didn't always turn out to be so. Also why all the Slytherins are evil and so on.

Forgive my assumption that you weren't a Weasley fan. Usually when I see Ron and Ginny together in a negative post, it usually spells angry Harmoanian. It was a long battle, my dears. -_-; My point about her being the seventh born is that Ginny was set up for something special a long time ago, but was not characterized by this unusual trait, like most Mary Sues are. This all goes back to my original prompt that Ginny's personality now is too sudden, when there were clues laid about here and there.

You say you liked books 1-4 Ginny better--when we were told by other characters that this was NOT the real Ginny? This is what I find strange. We were told that the shy cutie we occasionally saw was hiding a stronger, more talkative nature. So why is Ginny in the more recent books such a surprise when she's been getting more vocal and relaxed around Harry through the series? I promise you, I found her adorable too, but I knew she would have to grow out of that if she was going to progress anything with Harry. You can't really have a relationship with the image of a person, y'know?

You know what, I'll throw this out: I fully agree that Harry/Ginny could have been written better. I just want people to realize it could have been written oh so much worse. :)

A common Mary Sue as I understand it is utterly perfect, universally loved and ultra-talented and superior. Ginny is none of these things, thus far in my reading of the books.

Can we be friends now? I <3 you when we're on the same side. :huggle:

The thing is, we are really told and not shown this, which I believe is a huge mistake on Rowling's part. We hear from Hermione and the twins and Ron about her in earlier books, but we never actually see her break out of this timid shell she put up. It bothers me even more because if JKR was planning this from the start, she should have included Ginny more in some way. I mean, she had a huge part in CoS and then faded away into the background, and then popped back as almost a totally different person.

But she is portrayed as having superior beauty, magical talent, and is extremely popular. Her faults are rarely talked about, not just from Harry's limited POV, but also with the author herself.

Oh trust me, I know how it is to be outnumbered in a debate. ^_^;; *sighs and glances at ACF*

As to your first point, I do agree. However, since this is a children's series...you take what you can get, you know? I disagree to a certain point that we didn't have enough clues, but I immediately liked Ginny, so I paid obnoxiously close attention to her mentions in the series, so I noted when she was catching Harry's eye more and talking more often with him.

To your second point, I disagree. Ginny doesn't have superior beauty. Fleur has that. ;D She doesn't have superior intellect. Hermione and Dumbledore and quite a few Ravenclaws have that. A lot of people in the Weasley clan have magical talent. And why is being popular a sin? If she were Sue-popular, McLaggen wouldn't have badmouthed her, Blaise would have been all 'Blood traitor? Who cares, she's hawt!' and for that matter, Malfoy would probably be all over her too, since he was stunned into silence by Hermione's get up at the Yule Ball. ;D

You see how it could have been much, MUCH worse?

True. I remember Mrs. Weasley and Hermione didn't like Fleur as well. They were actually bordering to stuck-up rudeness.

If you have to hate Ginny for that, at least add these two women as well.

Perhaps, Harry doesn't hang around with her much? As said the series were written in his point of view (relying to his friends' stories to inform him what happened when he was not in that place with them). He wasn't that close to Ginny in the first books, she was a year younger, so they can't hang out in school activities. They actually became more than accomplices and then became good friends in OoTP when he started the DA. Suddenly Ginny became a pretty girl, and for once Harry noticed her. And he noticed her too well. I don't see why it was such a huge deal. For Rowling to give a more detail on Ginny (who doesn't have a complicated family life and past), Harry would have to be a stalker. And honestly he has other more important things to do than that.

Er, I don't remember that. I seem to remember she joined the elite group professor whathisface created because she gets along with people very well. She was not beautiful, otherwise she shouldn't be intimitated by Fleur. She wasn't smart in Hermione level. And she has magic, since they all have that.

Her fault would be extremely popular. But athletes used to be stereotypical popular anyways. Quidditch seems to be no different.


Anyways, I'm not gonna be a strict defender of Ginny and Harry. I just don't like the incesstant Ginny bashings going on right now.

Ah! This is what happens when I leave for a day? LOL I guess Ginny's a hot topic, and a touchy subject for some.

I've only been able to go through some of the posts, but I think one thing I want to make clear is that ppl who don't like Ginny aren't necessarily anti-H/G. As others have said, I'm all for H/G, I was hoping for H/G ever since Ginny became prominent in book 2. I was waiting for Harry to get over his silly crush on Cho and realize that Ginny's the girl for him. What I didn't like is the way in which the author chose to develop her character. All of those books were wasted in terms of Ginny's personal growth. In situations like these I always ask myself, what would I have done?

Well I would have had Ginny break out of her shell sooner, in book 4 possibly (when she noticed that Harry decided to ask Cho out). I would have had her more interact with Harry a lot more in book 5. It's great that Ginny was so outspoken in book 5, but to have her still in the background only to bust out onto the scene in the second the last book is a mistake (imho). Ginny and Harry could have been able to develop a relationship in book 5, not a romantic one, but you can see them naturally get closer and understand each other, even if Harry's too dumb to figure out what's really going on. So while he's chasing Cho, he's getting closer to the girl he really should be with without even knowing it. This would also give us an opportunity to SEE FOR OURSELVES Ginny's growth as a character and person, rather than just throwing Awesome!Ginny at us in the sixth book.

Doing this would also make Harry's feelings less of a surprise in book 6. While Harry's just starting to realize that he has these feelings for her, the rest of us will be like "uh duh, you moron". That would be more realistic instead of "wow she's hot" *bang* And now he's got 'a monster in his chest'.

Hell ya I hate them for that too. Who said we only hated Ginny? Mrs. Weasley was being an unreasonable mega-bitch to Fleur in my opinion, and Hermione was just as bad. But again, we're talking about Ginny. And it's not just one related incident. It's an amalgamation of many things.

She WAS beautiful, otherwise Pansy wouldn't have talked about how apparantly all the boys in school fancy her. It was the scene where Harry was spying on Malfoy and his friends on the train. Not only that, but the fact that Ginny could snag one guy, break up with him only to snag another guy in a matter of days (not even) suggests to me that she is at the very least, very pretty. Top that off with Harry's sudden hormones and we've got a beautiful girl on our hands. There's nothing that said that she was intimidated by Fleur. In fact I'm not even sure if we get a reason as to why she (and everyone elsE) hates Fleur so much. That's why I was so happy and proud when Fleur laid the smack down on these bizatches at the end of the book, when they all expected her to leave Bill cuz he wasn't pretty anymore. YOU GO GIRL.

She doesn't need to be smart on Hermione's level to be considered exceptionally talented. The fact that she was accepted into Slugghorns club (who spent a good deal talking about how talented she was) proves that. And yes they're all magical, but that doesn't mean they're all on the same level. Neville's magical too. Enough said *hugs Neville b/c she didn't mean to insult him*.

Actually, if you read that carefully, you'll see that Pansy was mentioning that Ginny was pretty to see if Draco reacted, plus, she got to take a quick jab at Blaise. And really, are you going to trust Pansy to tell the truth about Ginny? She probably said all the boys liked Ginny because she wanted to see if Draco was going to react--in case you didn't notice, she's HIGHLY infatuated with the slimy little twit. :lmao:

And no, it wasn't a few days between Michael Corner and Dean Thomas--Dean and Gin didn't actually start dating until the next term, which meant there was a few months inbetween. Besides, you really think Ginny should sit and sulk when she broke up with Corner for getting all pissy that his quidditch team lost? Ginny is pretty, yes--but she's not drop-dead gorgeous like Fleur or even Gabrielle. Her personality was what made her most attractive to some people. She stood up for Neville, who is usually made the butt of everyone's jokes, and she stood up for Luna, who not only is in a different house, but is pretty shunned by her own house! Standing up for the ridiculed and easing tension with humor (as with OotP during the first meeting of the DA)--makes for a good friend. I still don't get why this appears to be a sin.

We do get a reason as to why the Weasley women (yes, Hermione included...she might as well be XD) don't like Fleur. Hermione dislikes her for looking down her nose at everything. Molly doesn't feel particularly fond of her because of the same reason, plus she's marrying her firstborn baby (I chalk this up to the in-law factor). Ginny doesn't like her because Fleur talks down to her like she's a baby. All three of these women are strong, do you really think they want to put up with some chick who talks down to them? Granted, it makes for comedy, but face it--Fleur was unintentionally asking to have the piss taken out of her. It was set up this way so that we'd really come to love her in the end (just as the Weasley women accept her) when we find out what she's really made of. It means, she'll fit in well. ;D

...well, eventually.

Ginny invented a hex, and chances are, she reminds Slughorn of Lily, whom he was very much taken with. Not to mention--she was one of the participants in the battle at the Ministry the last term. Neville has famous aurors for parents, even though they are in St. Mungo's--and he was also there at the fight. Part of the reason they were invited was because Slughorn wanted more information on the fight and the prophecy--and they were probably the first two candidates he thought of because the names Weasley and Longbottom seem to be well known in the wizarding community.

I don't think it's fair to say that Neville is not on the same level. He is--he has a lot of power, but what he lacks is confidence! That's probably why he missed the DA so much--it was a large group doing something productive that made his family proud, and it helped to build his confidence. He was doing fabulously in there after all.

The rest of your post, I more or less agree with and appreciate that you don't just go after Ginny alone. I still think you're being a bit too rough and missed some of the motivations for why they all behaved as they did.

In addition--since Neville and Luna were so gypped in the sixth book, I really want them two and Ginny to go on their own quest. They may not get as much page time because they aren't with Harry, but I hope that when they all reunite, we find out that the second Trio were doing something just as critically important. I have a theory that there is a horcrux in the Room of Requirement. And I'm almost certain the locket is back at Grimmauld Place.

So...I'm a Mary Sue for having most folks in school like me (cuz I'm nice) and going through boyfriends quickly?(I'm on my third within this year) :ermm:

Also, apparently my child hood friend Tyler is a sue, seeing as I managed to develop a crush on him quite suddenly after growing up with him :lol: Yez, my feelings for him were so unrealistic.

Honestly, I think Ginny's development has been VERY realistic. She says herself that Hermione was telling her to act more like herself around Harry. She admits to having been shy and quiet, but decided to try being herself instead. WHICH WORKED. So, if she had revealed her true self sooner, Harry would have fallen for her sooner, which is never a good idea author wise. You never hook up your main couples too soon, or else there's no interest, no excitement, no anticipation.

I always felt HxG was very realistic, and my only problem was them hooking up so quickly, cuz I rather enjoyed Harry's having a crush on her.
Why? Because that's how teenagers fall in love. They can know a person for YEARS, never notice them much, spend alot of time with them(Harry spent pretty much the whole summer with the Weasley's, hanging out with Ginny and the lot), get used to them and...come to see them in a new light. It's normal, it happens ALL THE TIME. It's happened to me several times, and last I checked my life isn't a badly written novel ^_^

As for Ginny's character...I like her much more now that she's acting like herself. She's more entertaining this way. I've always preferred the out spoken, brassy type.

@Inuyatta

Honestly, I think Ginny has a lot of potential as a great character--I actually like her as strong-willed, but, at least in my opinion, a very fine line was crossed that made her character come off as distasteful to myself instead of kickbutt.

It's alright, apology accepted~

I understand and totally agree with your first point. More people would get mad if she did come along on the ride. I'm just one of those oddball people who would've been less mad, that's all. And I never said it was a flaw of Ginny's, but an issue I have with the book that made me like the characters involved less.

I don't think Ginny or the Twins are "mean characters" in essence. I just think that the Twins are more likely to recieve punishment than Ginny.

Personal experience has not been kind to me, I guess. :lmao:

I just thought about that. Haha, I'm getting slower by the second. Thank you, however.

For the longest time, I couldn't figure out why everyone was talking about FFIX's main character. But uh---

It's alright and uh--Sefie can attest to this, but I had no idea what a Harmoanian was/is when I first read your post. I assumed it had something to do with a harmonica. XD

And it's alright. I like most-to-all of the Weasely clan, actually. Sure, I get annoyed with them at times, but I like them [for the most part].

I'm allowed my delusions, thank you very much. XD

Just because we're told that's not the real Ginny doesn't mean (as Zelda so eloquently pointed out) that we're shown. I'd like to have seen the blossoming of a headstrong young woman from her meek shell instead of the blink-oh-look-it's-the-real-Ginny!

Oh of course, it could've been worse. We could've had another Through Tifa's Eyes on our hands. However, just because it could've been worse doesn't excuse it entirely.

I'd agree to an extent. Ginny is not utterly perfect or universally loved, but she is portrayed, in my opinion, as ultra-talented and superior to many.

Wait, we weren't before? O: I'm offended! XP

Of course, just because we disagree on a book doesn't mean we're not friends~ :huggle:

@Anti-R

I'm not quite sure if this is directed towards me, but I believe I've addressed this in both my original post and subsequent follow-up post. I was ticked at their characters for it, but I don't hate any of them for it.

I don't see how we're bashing her character. o_o;

*sigh* I feel like I've had to say this about a thousand times already, but ppl don't seem to understand the concept of a Mary Sue. I really don't want to have to explain it since it's slightly more complicated then 'doing one thing that Ginny Weasley also did in Book 6 of Harry Potter makes a character a Mary Sue!!!'. I left a link in one of my above posts to a wikipedia article that you can read to find out for yourselves.

We can't be making assumptions based on what we THINK happened behind the scenes. In that case, we can say that Snape is a pedophile who was having secret relations with both Draco and Neville at the same time constantly over the past four years (and was really good at hiding it). If it's not shown in the book or mentioned later on, it either didn't happen, or the author obviously felt that it's not worth mentioning. Therefore even IF Ginny had a detention behind the scenes, the author didn't mention it, nor did she even see fit for Harry to mention it in passing (even if it's to say how unfair he thought it was). To me that says that either the author didn't want to show Ginny getting punished or didn't think her action was punishable.

On top of that, having a crush on someone won't make you gloss over the fact that she had a detention. He will at least notice it and mention the trouble that Ginny got in. In fact it's more realistic that he would have mentioned it because he was so pissed off that the girl that he liked got into detention for something HE thought was heroic and awesome.

Harry and Hermione shippers.

That's what I was getting at actually. I don't understand on the reason why one has to be irked by Ginny doing this mean thing on one character, but it's perfectly ok for another character to be doing technically the same thing on another person.

And face it, if Slughorn has to choose to between Ginny and Ron as a Weasley representative in his club, he'd choose Ginny. Had the twins and/or Percy are around, I have no doubt he'd pick them instead.

Finally, I've seen scarier canon Mary Sues. Ginny doesn't feel like one to me. My opinion though.

No, you're not. I was just generalizing about the HP fandom. Am sorry.

To Nyrin:

1.) I know very well what a Mary Sue is, having sporked quite a few myself in several fandoms. I know they come in all shapes and forms. I think Sefie's point is that Ginny is not a Sue--she's realistic. Aside from the magical abilities, she's a perfectly normal girl.

2.) We can be fairly safe with this assumption because Ginny destroyed school property. Do you really think McGonnigal wouldn't punish her? And if you're just now thinking Snape and Draco have a thing going on, welcome to fandom. XD OH TEH SLASH~! I don't support the idea myself, but if fans like pairing them up, they will, and they will make fantastic art from it.

And yes, Harry would gloss over it. They just won the match, and he's infatuated with her. Harry's crush didn't stop him for calling Ginny out during practice for calling Ron a prat. He may have thought it funny at the time, but it didn't stop him from calling her out. ;D But when he's focused on something or has some pretty big distractions like those I mentioned...I have no reason to believe he wouldn't file that little detail in the 'blah blah' section of his brain that he doesn't pay attention to. Kinda like how Hermione said she was going to go somewhere, and Ron said at the same time he was going to go to the bathroom, but they both ended up at the top of the stairs together in a matter of seconds and Harry didn't think twice about it, but I happened to noitce it because it was odd. HEE~

Besides, McGonnigal, according to Harry, is strict, but fair. So I doubt he'd be angry because McGonnigal is well justified in giving Ginny a detention, at least for damage to school property. And there are definitely some things worth getting detention for. XD

But yeah, Ginny's too realistic to be a Sue. Really, the only thing she's guilty of is being fairly popular, and that's just not a sin big enough to be deemed 'sue'. :lmao:

Edited: because in my rush to make it to work ontime, I left out a sentence...or two. Rofl brain be gone~

Yeah, haha. Uh, not familiar wtih the Harry Potter fandom. [and from what I can tell it's quite a scary thing. o_o;]

Regardless, I'm not actually a Harry/Hermione shipper, strangely enough--never have been. o_o;

But the topic here is Ginny, so I'll leave that for another time.

And I agree with this sentiment. It's not okay to be irked by Ginny if I wasn't irked by the other's identical sentiments. Except, y'know, I was irked by everyone's [almost-not-Bill's] sentiments towards Fleur. XD

While I'm not sure about Percy, I do agree that I think the twins would have a great deal of potential in Slughorn's eyes. I think Ron may have been a candidate however, before Ginny came into the picture and did that hex of hers.

I totally agree with your first statement. There are much, much scarier canon sues out there--especially in the Fantasy genre. However, I do still think Ginny has the qualities of a Mary Sue. She's not perfect, but she's "utterly fantabolous" and "gutsy, but in a good way". That's just my opinion as well. :]

Just wanted to make sure. :]

I think Percy can make it. He is a jerk, but he is one of the brightest students in Hogwarts during his stay there. He'll definitely make the cut.

And I liked Ron, but since he is holding the position as the underdog of the main trio, I don't think an opportunist like Slughorn would even bat an eye on the poor boy. Ron doesn't simply excel on anything, doesn't have a fabulous past (like Harry and Neville), and doesn't stand out in their school community. So what if Ron fought off the giant spider, undoes Voldemort's plots and helped his team, he'll always be the second fiddle to Harry. Which is a shame.

It's a good thing they are best friends, though. Can you imagine the drama of resentment had Rowling walked that path? Ron could have been a villain. 0.o;

I know what a Mary Sue is, I was pointing out the fact that those things that were being shown as PROOF that Ginny is a Mary Sue aren't all that extraordinary. I was showing examples from my own darn life to show you they aren't all that weird or special, things like that just HAPPEN.
I think maybe your problem is that all these positive attributes seem to be stacking, and this makes her a Sue, but let's think about it.
Ginny's nice to people, she's out going and fun, this makes her popular. Who do boys want to date? Nice, fun, popular girls. She's also pretty, but the Weasly's were never described as ugly were they? And she comes from good, intelligent stock, so she's gonna be very clever when it comes to magic(I mean, look at the twins! The stuff in their joke shop blows my mind O.o).
And I wanna point out something that I remembered from last night. Now, somebody accused Ginny of being more James like than Lily. In "Snape's Worst Memory" Lily stands up for Snape(Who, as Lupin later explained, really DESERVED all he got and more, this IS the guy who invented "Sectumsempra" and then used it on other students), until Snape mouths off, then she lets him get it.
Now, Ginny stands up for students who ARE deserving of it! She stands up for Neville and Luna! I really don't see how she's more James like as she isn't the one doing the bullying EVER. She does things like hex those who deserve it, or smash into them, but honestly, can you say that Zacharias Smith was really endearing himself to YOU at that point? It was satisfying to finally see him get what he deserved.

It doesn't matter what you THINK happened. Anything theoretically could have happened between the parts not mentioned in the book. What matters is hat was actually mentioned. If it isn't mentioned, isn't not important.

I'll give you ten points and a cookie for the attempted cheekiness.

1.) Well, duh. XD I'll assume you didn't mean to leave a double negative. :D

2.) YUM! >3 *munch*

Er...I don't really want to make a third HP thread here, so...any thoughts on Ginny, Neville and Luna, book 7? XD

Yay something in this thread I can add too debate makes me run away :whistle:

I think Neville and Luna should get MUCH more book time in the 7th book. I think Neville will get his revenge either on Voldemort or Bellatrix. Luna...I don't think she has a purpose. But she's my favourite character so I'm just hoping she helps out somehow. Maybe the DA (The 6 who went to the Department of Mysteries) will be the ones to end Voldemort by their power of friendship. Neville's never had true friends who stick by him like these people have, Luna always gets picked on so she's ecstatic to have people who care, Ginny...well we'll not go into that lest we fetch the pitchforks.

I also liked the idea others on this thread had about Luna, Neville, and Ginny helping out. I somehow doubt the three of them will be left hiding in Hogwarts waiting for news while Harry, Ron and Hermione go off to get the bad guys. I am sure there will be battles going on all over since this is the final book. I am very excited to see how all their stories play out. And it would be nice if Neville got some revenge for his parents as well. I definately think he has more to show us.

Well, I think Remus and Sirius had a thing going on :devil:

Luna, Ginny, and Neville will spearhead the DA while the Trio are on their horcrux hunt, that's what I think. But I'm not sure I like the idea of kids fighting in war. :ermm: Most probably though, they'll be forced to.

Lol, it was an extension of the twins messing with Smith's spellwork in OotP.
I think this scene was simply a merging of the usual JKR tactic of showing foolish people getting what they deserve and showing Ginny as a glib liar and mischief-maker(like her big brothers) by crashing into the commentator's box and making it look like an accident. "Sorry Professor, forgot to brake!"

kids in a war is staple in fiction. Which is unfortunate, really. From giant robots to kids stumbling in a magical land. KH Sora's only 15, yet he beats the crap out of people older than he is.

But fighting is the core of an adventure story... I mean can you imagine yourself being excited if you watch "Empire Strikes Back" with Luke and Vader debating in front of the Senate to settle their differences over a lightsaber duel? Can you imagine Harry and Voldemort shaking hands, say sorry and part ways in Book 7? Don't think so...