In this thread, Inuyatta brought up the idea of the sexual double standard that I'm sure we're all familiar with.

Now, I'd say that this idea of a woman being a slut while a guy is labelled a player falls under the topic of sexism. Double standards like this are ridiculous to me, and the only reason I can think of that such a double standard exists is because we have been taught that being sexually promiscuous makes a woman 'dirty', and that we shouldn't enjoy sex because there's this idea of the ideal woman, that she's meant to be pure, sweet and innocent, and we're not supposed to be interested in things like sex, much less get pleasure out of it.

I think we're also taught to be selective when it comes to partners, to find someone who's perfect, whereas men are just expected to have as much sex as possible in order to 'sow their wild oats' before they settle down. So a woman having lots of sex is seen in a negative thing because they 'aren't being selective'.

What are your thoughts on the issue, or just on sexism in general?

Madame B I first have to say you are awesome :fangirl: I always love to read what you have to say and this is another example of a great post by you. :gift:

Okay now to respond I agree that most double standards are silly and still with us but I do think progress is still being made but of course there is always room for improvement for both men and women sexism.

However I guess I am old fashion on how I few sex and would hope my girl(and boy)would view it similiarly. I don't think you necessarily should only sleep with one person your whole life and if you are responsible that how many partners you have is your choice( when I say your I mean it generally not you Madame B :D But I have always seen sex as more than just a form of recreation, especially the first time you have sex. I believe it should be with someone you love or are at least in a relationship with that you have been commited to. I couldn't imagine giving my virginity to just some guy because I do view it as a gift.

But if someone wants to go on a date and then go home with that person, that is fine as long as they are an adult. I do think that many people have sex to young, not to offend anyone, but when you are still in your young teens I think there is still a lot to learn about relationships and sex makes everything more complicated and if a pregnacy happens even if the guy bails the girl will have to deal with it somehow. I guess because there is normally always a possiblity for pregnacy I see sex as an adult act, not for those who want to be adults. Does that make sense? :unsure:

I am I even answering your question or did I go off on another ramble, sorry I tend to so that :(

Well that's my thoughts anyhow.

Good point there MB. Some women 'collect' the number of times they had sex. Pretty much sad isn't it? Sexism is only based on their self-esteem, no love in it.

I'm pretty equal about it. Man or woman, if you sleep with a lot of people irresponsibly, and don't care about any one of them, you are just plain stupid. :D

I've got nothing against anyone sleeping with each other, so long as they do it responsibly and no one gets hurt.

The double standards need to DIE.

What can I say? Sexism sucks hard. Yes, the double standards are really awful.

There's something sexist in society (at least American society) that really bothers me. There's a lot of music and movies out there that really objectify women. Songs that boil women down to basically being a guy's p***y. People don't even notice it anymore, but sometimes, pop culture can REALLY teach women that their goal in life is to melt underneath a big, strong man in moans. I see it all the time in music videos; the male singer surrounded by tons of women doing everything but verbally begging him to take them. That really bothers me. I'd like to see more out there that promotes sexual independence-- something that teaches women that they're individuals who don't have to be a guy's sex object. Something that teaches them that they can be in charge themselves, take care of themselves, and still express their sexuality.

in my opinion if a girl is having sex with someone she loves she should not be labelled a slut. if she goes around fooling around with everyone and their mother, well only then should she be considered a slut. but when guys fool around with multiple people they should not be called "players" in my opinion. if girls can't fool around with multiple guys without being called a slut, why should men? instead of "player" i prefer to use the term man whore. please excuse me for being so blunt.

You took the words right out of my mouth ...Sahdana :lol:.....I never understood what the definition of sexism really meant until after you had given an example.

Here's the definition I found:
Sexism- exploration, domination of one sex by the other, esp. of women by men.
Does that still relate to what you were talking about?

And here's an example gender and ethnic double standards I found on wikipedia based on sexism: (Just thought I wanted to post)

Do you all agree with this? :unsure:

Thank you! That's sweet of you to say, aerisbolt. :huggle:

Yep, it makes sense. That's a great way of putting it.

I'd say that sex can be considered as domination of a woman by a man, if people choose to see it that way, so yeah, I think it relates to what Sahdana was saying.

I've noticed that too. It's got to the point where I don't even bother watching music channels any more because I'm sick of seeing bouncing breasts and ass. I know it's because sex sells, but still. It's irritating.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think of shows like Sex and the City, if you've ever watched it? With one of the characters, Samantha, the writer turns it around, so the guys are the sex objects. I don't necessarily agree with treating guys as sex objects, but it's quite refreshing to see a character who enjoys sex and doesn't apologise for it or make excuses for her behaviour.

Having said that, I think the one character who's the best role model for women in that show is Miranda. She was successful, cynical, fiercly independent and never allowed people to patronise her, and as the show came to an end she became a wife and mother as well without packing in her job.

Okay, tangent over. :lol:

I agree totally with that counter argument. Women do not deserve some kind of special right to hit a man and have that man unable to retaliate. That's another double standard I hate. Think about it, if a woman's sporting a black eye because her partner has hit her deliberately, people consider it disgraceful behaviour on the man's part, and rightly so. So why, if it's a man sporting the black eye, do people think "Oh well, he must have done something to deserve it" or find it funny, or tease the guy about being so weak that he's getting beat up by a woman. All this does is make the guy feel unable to speak out about it for fear of being ridiculed. Domestic violence is never okay, whether it's the woman or the man that's doing the hitting.

Heh, I beg to differ on that one. 'Men naturally cannot help it'? I'm sorry, but isn't that degrading towards men? Saying that they're like animals who can't control their instincts? I wouldn't like to be referred to that way. It's like saying that girls who wear revealing clothes are asking to get raped, because of course, if a guy catches the slightest glimpse of bare skin, he turns into a rabid sex-crazed animal and can't be held responsible for what he does. :rolleyes:

I've only seen an episode or two of Sex and the City. Although it didn't spark my interests that much, I can appreciate the fact that it was promoting the idea of women having sexual independence. I'd like to see more in pop culture that goes beyond the stock character of Holly Housewife, and shows real women living their own lives happily-- without needing a man to make herself feel complete.

To tie this in with FFVII, I kind of liked that about Aerith. Although she seemed all innocent and angelic when you first saw her, I don't think she was really all about that. Sure, she was sweet and caring. But she was also lively, independent, and centered. She broke stereotypes... like men always being the first to make a move? Aerith was the one that suggested that she and Cloud go on a date.

Yeah, she asked Cloud to be her bodyguard. But in the script, all she does is ask Cloud to get her out of the church. She isn't the strongest girl out there, so why pretend that she is. She didn't ask Cloud to be her bodyguard because she wanted a great big man in her life.

...how come none of the guys around here have any problem hitting a girl? Sheesh, I've been in plenty of fights and never once have I had a female opponent! I swear, I think I was getting picked on and challenged because I rarely lost. :mad:

...back to the topic, I agree that if a woman isn't acting like a lady, a gent doesn't have to behave like a gent at that moment. But the more important lesson would be 'Don't start shit, there won't be shit'. XD

I think it's horrible that society has become such a horrible imitation of equality. You know that men get raped by women as well, but they almost never report it because of the shame? Because they get laughed at by the cops? It's infuriating!

I've got news for people, women can be just as strong as men. I'm a masseuse, and I've seen this for myself--I'm not the only freak exception. I'd seriously like people to stop referring to women as the 'weaker sex'. It's annoying. Weaker is often synonymous with inferior, and I ain't havin' that. Also, it promotes the idea that the strongest always wins the fight, which is a lie--it's usually the fastest. :whistle:

Ack, while I'm on the subject, I'm getting sick of girls saying that guys should treat them like queens, when both of them are college students, and not one of them acts like proper royalty! I'd much rather my boyfriend saved his money for emergencies than spoiling me with it! I mean, it's good to surprise and treat your significant other every now and then, but it shouldn't be a requirement, especially if both parties are poor! My poor friend was digging himself into debt trying to treat his ex often because she demanded it. And she came from a well-off family! My friend comes from a family of 6, and they're not exactly rolling in dough either--his parents are currently putting three of four kids through college. Their mother can't even afford medical insurance to treat her deviated septum and suffers very often.

It really pissed me off at times--the girl was nice enough, but not nice to him, and she was the first one I ever saw him actively have a crush on and try to pursue. She kept holding him up to a standard that was impossibly high and expected him to go broke over her. They argued often, understandably so, and it ended up with her hooking up with his room mate. -_-


...sorry for the rant, I just thought it somehow applied and I went off. :blush:

I do have a major problem with guys hitting women actually. It's wrong for any kind of violence but for a guy to hit a woman is beyond wrong. I've never been in a fight *touches wood* and I most certainly never plan on fighting a women (or a guy).

It's kind of a hard topic to discuss without turning sexist yourself saying "Oh guys are scum for doing this and that", since not all guys are like that (ok, there are a fair amount).

As for the comment that "men can't help it", THAT is sexist and degrading to men. I can see where the comment is coming from, but you're better to judge individual people before saying that the whole male race are the same when it comes to the topic of "women". We're not.

*needs to skim more of this topic*

Oh, I agree totally. It's always a pleasant surprise to see female characters like that in TV and film. You'd think that in this day and age when women are told they can do anything, there'd be a lot more independent female characters, but it still seems as though the stereotypical ideal woman is a housewife/mother/looking for the love of a good man to complete her.

Exactly. A lot of Aerith-bashers and also Aerith fans see her as a sweet angelic ball of pink fluff, and don't see her true character. She wasn't naive like people love to make out. She was streetwise and confident, and not afraid to show her feelings or make the first move. But on the flipside, she gets accused of being a whore for making the first move, because after all, she should be meek and mild and want a big strong guy to take care of her like stereotypical female characters do. It's a lose/lose situation. <_<

It is. Equality is supposed to mean that both sexes are treated the same, but it seems like some women take advantage of the fact that at the moment when it comes to rape or violence, female victims are taken seriously while male victims aren't.

Girls who expect things like that annoy me too. There's this thing called 'paying your own way', y'know? I mean, some guys like to spoil their girlfriends, which is all well and good if they're happy with it, but demanding to be showered with gifts? Doesn't a gift mean more when it's from the heart, not when it's given out of obligation?

You're right about that one Scott. I mean it could be diffuclt to debate ona topic like this without accusing someone or giving an example without a person taking it offensively.....(Maybe thats why Im havinga hard time posting on this.....)

I believe on this. I, personally, say that some women do that just to get attention. But you want to know what gets me? And speaking of the raping, I read that Inuyatta posted about men "getting raped and alomst never not reporting it because of shame". Maybe its because some are egotistical and have a reputation they always think about......

Either some girls act that way because they are: 1. Gold-diggers (People who would date someone for their money to be spoiled) or 2. To show that they are the boss of a relationship, like they have control of the other....And I really hate both options.....

As much I love to debate and dicuss..I hate this "sexism" topic....Its like discrimination against one sex or the other <_<

This is coming from Wikipedia and I take that offensively, though I shouldn't. (Especially with the women being the "wekaer sex") This sounds like a put-down, like we ARE supposed to be inferior to men!! (Or the other way around)I want to hear some opinions on this quote and the one below!

Either Wikipedia is wrong or sexism is really a pain in the ass (Please forgive my language :sweat:)

I think any woman who would cry rape to get attention is a disgrace. For one, all she's going to do is make it harder for those women who have been raped to be able to convince the police that she's telling the truth, and for another, she's going to destroy the guy's reputation completely, because even if he's found innocent, he'll still have to carry that around with him for the rest of his life, and some people are still going to believe he's guilty.

As for men not reporting rape because they're worried about their reputation, I suppose that could be a factor... But, it's not gonna be just that. It's gonna be because they're ashamed of what happened, they think they're gonna be laughed out of the police station if they dare report it, or they think that what happened to them can't be classed as rape because they're a man, so they don't report it.

Well, scientifically speaking, women are generally physically weaker than men. I suppose it could also mean that women generally let their emotions show more than men do. In the workplace, there can be a lot of discrimination against women because people believe that while a man will keep a stiff upper lip and won't let himself be affected by criticism or difficult situations, a woman will take things to heart and get upset. :rolleyes: But there's another double standard there: if a guy is emotionally detached and ruthless, he's admired. If a women is emotionally detached and ruthless, she's a bitch. *sigh*

It's true that male homemakers are looked down on. 'Housewife' doesn't seem to have as many negative connotations as 'House-husband'. It's all down to stereotypical gender roles again. A guy 'should' be the one who works hard to bring the money in. Doing chores, taking care of the kids and making dinner 'aren't the man's job.' Being supported financially by his wife makes a man seem like less of a man in the eyes of those who believe in those stereotypes. It's probably for these reasons that paternity leave isn't as long as maternity leave. The guy 'should' be getting back to work to earn money for his wife and child. It's stupid. Why should a father's presence be less important for a child than a mother's presence?

That's very true. Although women aren't necessarily expected to be Susie Homemaker anymore, any man in such a position is certainly looked down upon. If a woman says, "I'm a stay-at-home Mom" it warrants a completely different reaction from society as compared to a man saying, "I'm a stay-at-home Dad." It's as if there's something feminine about raising children which is totally incorrect. According to modern psychology, women are not born with any more child raising instincts than men. So that means that both men and women can have the same abilities as parents, and, therefore, it should definitely not be seen as unusual or feminine to be a stay-at-home Dad. It's sexist to think otherwise, and we should cultivate a society that doesn't have socailly rigid gender roles.

A point I just thought about... in cases of divorce, the mother is most often the one granted custody. Is this sexist?

In my history class, we had a debate over whether or not a woman could be just as good of a president as a man. Much to my annoyance, one of the guys in class actually said, "What if she gets really bad PMS? Then once a month, she'll get all pissed off and make irrational decisions." I practically cheered when one of the girls replied, "Well, guys have testosterone all the time. So by that logic, men are making compulsive and irrational decisions 24/7."

But in all seriousness, what's wrong with a woman president? Women aren't incapable. They aren't less intelligent. They don't lack diplomatic skills. So what's with the social stigma that a lot of people carry, swearing that they would never vote for a woman president, no matter what her platform is?

You know, there isn't a damn good reason why a woman can't be president. But it's funny, because the sexist logic can be used against the offenders here. Confucius pretty much had a heavy hand in defining gender roles in ancient China. The man goes out and provides for the family, but the woman stays home and takes care of all the affairs. Basically, she manages. Therefore, with that logic, a woman should always be president. :D

*snickers* I wish I could offer you something more productive, but it's late right now. X_X

I'm reviving this thread because of a website that I stumbled across last night called nomarriage.com. Visit it if you like, but be warned that you are wandering into extremely misogynistic territories.

Basically, this guy argues that all western women are selfish, naggy princesses who make terrible wives because they don't always want to be cooking, cleaning, and submissive to their husbands' demands for sex. He uses the words "hypocritical bitches" often.

I used to think that this kind of sexism was dead, and I can't even begin to piece together how much is truly wrong with this kind of mentality. Of course, lumping all western women into the category of "hypocritical bitches" who are selfish and naggy is certainly a start. Because obviously ALL western women are all the same. And then there's the whole "hypocritical" thing. It's not hypocritical to ask women to be submissive to 1950s gender roles (yes, this guy actually uses 1950s wives as an example of what a good wife is like), but not expect the same from men?

Anyway, I thought I'd bring this up again because that website seriously got me angry. I can't believe anyone has the audacity to be this sexist in public anymore.

I gotta reply to that. Actually, here in Finland, we DO have a female president at the moment, and I think she has done her job fairly well, even though I usually prefer male presidents. :)

-- Demanding Western Bitch and Proud of It --

*nudges everyone here over to the feminist_rage comm*

Seriously, this is just another case of guys who have no idea of what a real relationship is and who also don't have the balls to deal with an equal life-partner but instead prefer the safe cozy dream of a housekeeper/blow-up doll. Women with any kind of independant thought are way too formidable and scary. I feel sorry for all the foreign girls who will have to put up with passes and proposals by these backwards, sexist, racial-stereotyping creeps in the future, but on my part, I think their whole attitude of "western women are bitches, so we are leaving the internet West" will just make a lot of western women breathe a sigh of relief. :lmao:

This website is very frustrating in places, but in others it's so awful that it's actually funny. There's an article there about how women have wildly unrealistic expectations about how their partners should look and the hypocrisy nearly made me laugh out loud. Because no man has EVER forced an unrealistic beauty standard on a woman in all of history, right? But if women start demanding that men make an effort to look better, then burn the witches! Kill those unthinkable ideas!

But on the other side of things, the double-standard is very disturbing. The men contributing to these articles demand a great deal from women that they themselves wouldn't accept in a million years, and it's alarming how they can't see the flaws in their thinking. If women are "bitchy" towards them, it's probably because of backwards, constraining, insulting attitudes like these that provoke that reaction. How can you demand such submission from someone (giving nothing in return) and then be surprised if they become angry and/or try to get the hell out of their relationship with you?

The whole thing isn't just insulting to western women (particularly Americans), but also to the "foreign girls" they keep talking about. It's not just an issue of sexism, but colonial attitudes too. There's a lot of racist undertones in how they approach women from other countries and the stereotypes and preconceptions they have that I find really disturbing. It's also unsettling how they seem to think of women from other countries as objects, decorative things of admiration ("my girlfriend comes with added house-cleaning features and Family Values++!"), rather than human beings. The whole idea of finding a girl from a background you assume to be disadvantaged, fetishizing all the qualities her race are assumed to have, and expecting her to be eternally grateful to you for liberating her into being your personal handmaid is disgusting. I'd love for an Eastern European or South American women to lay down the law to one of these guys, but I assume they'd just figure that any women with a mind of her own is too "westernized". <_<

But keep in mind that these guys also hold criminals as role-models. Yes, it's creepy as hell, but it also casts one hell of a shadow over the argument they keep trying to make.

Wow, I didn't even see that. If they can really revere something as truly FRIGHTENING as that legal document, a document which demands servitude from the way that she shaves to the type of underware she's allowed to wear and the sexual acts which she must engage in, then the men that put this website together are even worse than I thought they were. That's scary.

I'm going to take a very strange position here. I think in many ways sexism is really over exaggerated. Of course it exists, but it's not always as one-sided as it may appear to be.

I've had to deal with plenty of women who were man-haters. They held the stereotype that all men are evil, out to screw people over, have as much sex as possible, etc.. I've had to deal with far too many of these types of women, and ironically, these kinds of women tend to be attracted to positions of power. They are just as sexist as the men who are out there objectifying women.

There's also a sort of reverse-sexism that I see as all too common in modern American families. That is to say the girl gets doted upon, she's "daddy's little girl" and gets whatever she wants. This sort of doting on little girls can really spoil them and make them think that guys exist only to buy stuff for them. When they get older, the attitude continues, and they expect the perfect fairy-tale ending. Handsome, rich, smart, famous, etc... and they aren't happy with anyone else. Guys are still just objects to them, albeit in a different manner.

Finally, sexism has become a rallying cry for anyone who was ever denied a promotion, or a raise, or lost an election, had a bad marriage etc... Maybe in some of these cases, sexism did exist. But in many more, it's just someone who can't come to terms with the fact that they didn't get what they wanted.

In the end, at least in America, I think sexism still exists, but in many ways it balances itself out. The man-hating women and the women who look at men as portable wallets are more or less equally easy to find as the men who treat women as sex dolls and second-class citizens. In fact, it is one of society's little ironies that these types of people often end up together.

And as for a woman president, I don't have anything against the idea. But in order for that to happen.. well a woman has to run. There have only been a few who have ever tried (Mondale's vice presidential candidate back in the 80's, and Hillary is trying now). If more women ran, I think we'd see a female president before long. After all, there are plenty of women in other government offices, so obviously people don't mind electing them to office.

I am in no way sexist, but there are a few things that are quite unfair in the US when you think about it. The Draft for example. Both women and men have the same civil rights and both have the option to vote in the election for candidates that may very well lead our country to war with another. I just think it's quite unfair that women can vote for a president that could potentially enforce the draft and yet the women wouldn't have to worry about being drafted. I believe that since women and men have equal civil rights, then women should also have the same obligatory civil duties that men have. And I don't think there's any excuse for that.

Not that I want any of you girls to go to war or anything. ^^;; Just pointing out the unfairness of it all.

I can't say if this is an exaggeration because I don't know the specfic women you're talking about. But my female friends and I complain about men and their "evils" quite often, declaring our undying hatred for the male species. It's not really the same thing as sexism though because usually our "hatred" really stems from liking men too much and being frustrated by the occasional ineptitude. That's just my personal experience with women who claim to hate men.

MistaCloudStrife, as for the draft, I am woefully uninformed on the subject. From what I've heard though, at least in America, the draft doesn't apply to women because studies undertaken for the purpose of military research shows that women are more likely to choke up and sympathize with the enemy when it comes down to it.

That's just fine, I can tell the difference between a woman who is just complaining about about men in general, and a man-hater. The difference is in the attitude. While most women complain about our foolish antics and sometimes wish we could just go away... man-haters are like this all the time.

It's like a boss I once had... no matter how perfect my work was, no matter that I never took time off, did twice as much as any of my coworkers.. she always hated me. I began to see that she hated all of my male coworkers, and doted upon all my female coworkers. In the 3 years I worked there, not one man ever received a raise or promotion and all but the worst women did. And because she was a woman, anyone who complained to HR about her sexism was more or less just laughed at. According to most HR departments, sexism is only sexism when it's a guy doing it to a woman, not the other way around. That's a man-hater. Ironically she was married, and wow... did I feel sorry for her husband.

Another man-hater incident occurred when I was dating this girl for awhile, and her friend spent the entire time we were together trying to break us apart. Right in front of me, she would rant and become really angry about how evil men were and how no man could ever be a decent human being, etc etc... She would get really angry if a guy would try to hold a door for her, she'd start yelling at him usually. That's also a man-hater.

It's hard to say when exactly it stops becoming just complaining about men and starts becoming man-hating, but they definitely do exist.

I think when it comes to sexuality, women just can't win. A women who chooses to remain a virgin till marriage is called a prude and behind the times. A women who chooses to have sex is called a whore.

The only way it seems that a women really can win is to be married.

Men on the other hand are pat on the back for sleeping with many women and congradulated. However, a guy who refuses a women's advances, or chooses to wait till marriage to have sex is made fun of and mocked.

Personally, a big turn off for me is a guy who has slept with multiple women becuase it's the "cool things to do" or "because they were hot". I find many of these men to be gross and disrespectful and I will not be another girl for them to add to their tally.

It's sad really because sexual issues are no one else's bussiness but your own.

I also find it sad that it seems that women are often their worst enemies. A women that chooses to be a stay at home mom gets hell from other women who think that they are "backwards, anti feminist, and living in a time warp." A women that chooses to work gets hell from other women because they are "neglecting their child, irresponsible, and a terrible mother."

Last I checked, feminism was about choice...

That is very true Rinchan, especially the bit about women being their worst enemies. I see that sort of thing all the time. I firmly believe that when it comes to female equality, women are their own worst enemies, simply because they work against each other instead of with each other. Each group of women is too busy slinging crap against the other group to work in common cause. Female equality ought not to be about which group is right, because it's an individual's own choice. It's the freedom of choice that's important.

Chris Rock said it best: "Men are easy. Women would rule the world... if it weren't for other women. Why? 'Cuz women hate women."

Some feminists go on about how women should act like men, that is to say they should just sleep around with whomever, whenever, for whatever reason. I think that's crap. That's exactly how (bad) men want women to act. That's essentially saying "well men suck, so lets be like men." Good call (sarcasm).

That doesn't mean a woman needs to be a housewife either. But hey, if she wants to be one, and a guy is willing to have her that way... what's the problem? Conversely if a woman wants to have her own career of equal (or greater) value than her man's job... who cares? It's not anyone's business, as far as I'm concerned. Hell, if a woman wants to be the worker and have a stay-at-home husband, who cares? Sure it's weird, but it's not anyone else's business.

That's my $.02 anyway.