i hate the part of the movie when tifa ask cloud:

whai is going to be? a memory..of us?

she is telling cloud he had to decide, to continue remembering aeris or forget about her to think about " his family" ( tifa and the kinds). She is...ajjjj i hate when she ask this question, she is jalous because even death, aeris is more important to cloud than she will ever be!


and in the novel of tifas case, i dont line when she tell cloud that denzel , was aeris who brought him to them, not to cloud, but, to THEM, she is saying that aeris wanted them to be a family, this is not true!! if she was a good, girl, she would have say:

Yes, cloud, Aeris wanted YOU to take care of the child...

and clould would habe been happy...

and when he told her she went to the church, se said:

you can go, but the next time, with me


SELFISH! She knew that aeris and cloud meet in the church, she knew that this place was the only place where he was able to feel....near to aeris, so whe wanted to go there bexause he wanted that cloud forget about aeris!!


ajjjjjjjjjj what do you think!! :angry:

I will admit of Tifa's character that did seem pretty selfish but you have to remember that Tifa is trying to make sure she isn't left behind in cloud's thoughs which I'm sure no one would want if they liked the guy...although I can see the selfishness we have to remember Tifa doesn't want to be alone in a way showing us her insecurity :ermm:

i think if she really liked cloud, then she would want him to be happy..

I agree ahundred percent on that!

Warning extremely long!
Okay people might jump on me, but I think I am going to try to defend Tifa a little bit. In my opinion after reading the CoT and just her actions through the FFVII storyline she has always been concerned with Cloud. As I stated in another thread, I think Tifa is trying to figure out her feelings for Cloud but also wants to know where he stands, not just with her but with Marlene and Denzel.

Barret entrusted Marlene to both of them and children are sometimes more perseptive then they get credit for. Marlene is already seen a lot for her age and is taking care of a dying child. Her father is not here and out of the other two people closest to her on of them has become distant and almost invisible. And Denzel seems to basically worship Cloud and in his condition anything that would lift his spirits would be a good thing, so any one seriously taking on a mother role would have the right to know where Cloud stands emotionally for the sake of all of them. Tifa is trying to be a mother figure.

I think almost everyone agrees with one thing about Tifa, she gets much of her strength from Cloud. I don't view it in the same way Cloti fans do but her need for him in her life is very real. I really don't know how to say my next thought tactfully but all I ask is everyone bear with me till I finish. I love the fact that Cloud still needs and wants Aeris to be in his life, however I can see Tifa being concerned for him because the way he is grasping onto her could be considered unhealthy.... I do not mean his love for Aeris, I mean his GUILT over Aeris' death. It has been two years but this is still plagueing him enough that he can not lead a normal life. He fears losing everything he has started to build and he is dealing with a fatal illness. The burden on him is very physically apparent. Ironically Tifa is also plagued by guilt so she could see in Cloud what would happen if she let the guilt control her.

I don't know if I agee with her question or approach per say but I understand it. Remember Cloud does not share his thoughts and feelings and I can understand the frustration Tifa would feel seeing him punish himself over an incident that he cannot control. If he is too depressed then that is dangerous and needs to be addressed, but it is hard to fight the past. I believe she wants him to remember Aeris but not be guilty over Aeris. Cloud has a lot to give and many talents but at this point and time he is not using them do to fear and guilt. And I do think that his level of both is unhealthy and needs to be dealt with.
Now if she wants him to stop grieving for Aeris completely that is different.

Grieving is natural and needed and many times people push those who grieve to start acting normal in a decent time frame. The mistake is that there is no decent time period for grieving and if the griever doesn't meet other people's idea of when he should be okay then that person is unhealthy. That is very wrong and now one who truly cares for someone should ever ask for them to forget or to stop grieving. That is selfish. However I do not see this being Tifa's motive because she also remembers Aeris, as all of the gang do. By trying to make the planet better and helping those in need I believe honors Aeris' memory probably the best. Cloud has many gifts to give to the planet and he needed to understand that.

I do not believe Tifa was talking about Aeris' memory, I believe she was talking about Cloud's memory of Aeris' DEATH. And if I am right then that is a memory no one should loose to because Aeris was always full of life and gave a huge gift to the planet.

For me, I cannot see Tifa as a selfish villian.

ya! tifa is so into herself she doesn't care what cloud REALLY wants which is aerith. but that's my opinion

yeh tifa was a really selfish person but not only to cloud but also to red XIII like when he was worried about going crazy she told him to shut up and deal with it liek a man cuz she disliked that he was making her worried adn scared and yeh what daga15 said in the first post makes alot of sense

I think Aerisbolt nails it on the head. Tifa may not be your favorite, but she's not a villain and she does truly care about Cloud, but if she's gonna be any kind of mother figure to Marlene and Denzel, she needs to know whether or not Cloud is gonna be a stable figure in their lives--it's hard to make things feel like home if you've got things changing all the time at whim.

Take a knife and kill me but I didn't find Tifa too selfish. When she said "a memory or us?" she wanted Cloud to realise that they all cared for him and they didn't want him to forget them. The memory, like aerisbolt mentioned, was that of Aeris' death and Cloud's belief that he failed Aeris. Tifa wants Cloud to remember Aeris but to also realize that there are people around him who care about him too. Now you may kill me. :ermm:

NO!!! I WONT LET YOU KILL MY NEKO DONO!!! :mad: Not one of you are *hisses and :huggle: NekoDono*

nooooooo we will not kill you, maybe you are right...but i still think taht tifa is a little jalous because aeris lives in clouds heart...

LOl thats the main thing to rememebr Daga15...She's in HIS heart not Tifa ^^

yes tenshi aerith , that is right! :)

^^ Just telling whats truth ^.~

To be honest I didn't really like when Tifa said such things like that as well. I mean she says have we lost to a memory, I don't exactly know what she meant by that. I don't think she was thinking about the kids and Cloud having to be stable for the kids and stuff when she said that. Like it was pointed out when Cloud said he thought Aerith bought Denzel to him and Tifa put herself in the picture. She always does that and I'm sorry that does seem a bit selfish. I know she loves the guy, but I agree if she loves him she should want him to just be happy. Tifa I believe is trying to push her way into his life in a way that he doesn't want at this point. That's how I saw it anyway. I don't hate Tifa, I love her and i think she cares a great deal for Cloud and I think it's great but I think she tries to have more than he wants.

Okay, first off, mad props to aerisbolt and Neko for totally taking the words out of my mouth. You guys rock. :huggle:

I think that the question "Which is it? A memory or us?" was more general than people like to think. The way Tifa phrases it implies, at least in my mind, that she is asking whether Cloud is going to be there for the people who love him at present (not only herself, but Denzel, Marlene, and the whole AVALANCHE gang) or stay away from them because he is afraid the same thing will happen to them that happened to the people he loved in the past. Nomura explained this pretty thoroughly in Distance--Cloud is afraid of losing everything again. He lost Aerith, Zack, his entire family, and more. He probably wouldn't be able to go on if that happened again, and I think he's afraid of getting too close to people because he's afraid they'll be taken away from him the moment he shows his affection. Tifa sees that in him, and she wants desperately to do something about it. We know distancing himself from people harms Cloud, and Tifa knows that as well. She cares about Cloud's safety, perhaps above all else, in a way that is completely selfless. I respect her character for that.

And besides... I think Tifa knows where Cloud's heart is. I'm one of the few people who actually believes her romantic feelings for Cloud are pretty much gone by the time AC rolls around. Her role is to act as a protective (perhaps a little overprotective sometimes, but that's what moms do. :lol: ) mother figure in his life, and in my opinion, she does a damn good job of it. :D

I think Tifa's a great character but what bothers me is she draws most of her strength from Cloud. She was too dependant on him even though she can very well take care of herself.

When she said "Which is it? A memory or us?" at first I saw it as a choice between Aerith or his "family" but then I quickly realized that she meant it as Cloud dwelling on the tragedies and mistakes of his past instead of focusing on the present.

I think she's taken a motherly role with Cloud by the end of AC as well, watching out for his safety and being very protective of him. I can't believe there are Clotis who believe AC totally ends the LTD, thinking handsdown that Cloud and Tifa are going to finally get together, they'll be together alright but with the other members of Avalanche along with them.

What you said here, Luna, is exactly how I feel about Tifa in AC. From my understanding, the game's ending showed that Tifa had already accepted and acknowledged that Aerith is the one in his heart. Unlike the Clotis, I didn't see CoT portraying romantic feelings from Tifa either, but rather, it portrayed her acceptance of a caring family relationship with Cloud and the others, which ultimately leads to the development of a motherly role.

I don't see Tifa as being jealous or selfish in AC at all. I see her whole approach to Cloud's depression as a motherly one, which perfectly portrays the mother/big kid bond she shares with him. As for her lines, I agree with what has already been said about them. "A memory or us?", I don't think was meant for Cloud to choose between them or Aerith, but rather, for him to choose between them and living in the past memory of having failed someone dear to him. What Tifa wants is simply what Aerith wants Cloud to do: to forgive himself, stop dwelling on his past failures, to be able to move on with life, and to be at peace. I don't believe that Tifa is asking Cloud to forget Aerith, nor do I believe that she would ever want him to. Afterall, she did thank Aerith for having been there for them all along.

OMAIGAWD, Luna, just thought I'd also add that both your siggies totally PWN. :lust:

Hmm... I'm not sure she's totally moved from him.

Remember "Do you love me?" from CoT? I don't think she was refering as friend or family love...

hm....in the case of tifa, when she asks:

cloud, do you love me?- i dont know in what sense she is asking it. Because she ads,: cloud, do you love marlene?

so, maybe she is asking not in a romantic sense....

what is curious is that cloud answers this question very quicly, he says that yes, he loves marlene...but tifas question....he dont aswer it..

I found Tifa asking it in a way of "Cloud do you love me as a luver?" but when she saw him get up and he looked at her she quickly changed it to a question of Marlene and loving her as a family member

I believe Tifa's feelings for Cloud are romantic indeed...the way she moves and acts around him sounds more like a jilted would be girlfriend then a woman who just wants to take care of him. Sadly for Cloud, however, Tifa won't go away and nothing he can pull will get her to go away, or even back off a little.

Fortunately, Cloud has spiritAerith to get him through these trying times. ;)

Exactly! ^^ Enough said right there :fangirl:

I think it's pretty likely she meant it in the sense of family love, and not romantic love. As Daga15 pointed out, She asked Cloud the same question regarding Marlene. I didn't really see any difference in her wording of the two questions. What determines that one implied romance and the other family love?

Also, I'm curious as to how some of you interpreted FFVII's ending then, if not in the sense that Tifa had understood who the girl in Cloud's heart is. If you did interpret it the same way, why would Tifa ask Cloud a question she already knows the answer to? It's kind of hard for me to believe that she's that thick-headed. Moving on to CoT, Tifa stated herself that Cloud and Barret are now family to her. That is something she has accepted. Obviously, she and Cloud aren't married, so I definitely see "family" as something very platonic...not to mention the fact that Barret is the same thing to her as Cloud is, even if she is slightly closer to one than the other.

Well for why I felt that way was because even though she new she probly wanted it straight from him. Almost like you don't beleive your self until she see or hear it :unsure: ...God I'm walking around in circles...Its kinda hard to explain on the computer...hopefully someone understood what I was saying

OMG, i'm not the only one who noticed that line she said!!! :angry: Good lord, that pissed ME off! Hhehehe.... :angry: Tifa is just askin to get her eyes scratched up... and i'm gonna do personally!!

I was like "hey, so what she means is that its either us or Aeris's memories" Little, selfish bitch!:mad: man..... how could my hatred for Tifa get any bigger.... :mad:

LOL relax Goddess *hugs you* its alright ^^

I guess I don't see Tifa as having that kind of behavior. What about the fact that she'd told Cloud on the Highwind that "words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking"? Do you think she would really need Cloud to spell it out for before she accepts it? I'm not a Tifa fan, but in my eyes, SE would have really lowered Tifa quite a bit if they were portraying her as a woman who can't accept what she has already understood.

Anyhow, is there anything directly from CoT, itself, supporting the idea that perhaps she'd asked that question in the sense of romance, and not family love? I would think we'd have to look at CoT as a whole to understand the relationships, and not just one or two lines from it. CoT as a whole points to a family relationship between Cloud and Tifa, something she has accepted...which is why I think it's very likely her line there was pertaining to family-love instead of an out-of-nowhere question referring to romantic love.

You make a better point then I do :sweat: but I do agree in a way they would have to lower her a bit if you think about it

Very good points, HD, and I'm stoked about having one more Tifa defender in this thread! *high-fives* I do agree that I think the end of FFVII showed that Tifa really realized who Cloud loved and accepted it, which takes a truly strong character. But I don't think that stopped her from loving him just yet. I think she still held on to the romantic side of her love for him for a little while longer. I personally interpreted the "Do you love me?" quote in COT as the final straw for her. She wanted to know, even after they both had some time to think about it following FFVII and leading up to COT, if Cloud had grown to feel the same way about her as she felt about him. I personally thought of it as an, "Okay, so it's been a couple of years since the whole Aeris-getting-shishkabobbed incident. Are you willing to acknowledge that I dig you, or am I wasting my time?" sort of thing. :lol: But when he gave her the "dubious" look, I think she got the idea loud and clear. He was taken aback and probably understood the romantic implication, which would probably be a shock for any guy. I mean, picture it--your best friend of the opposite sex comes up to you and asks you if you love them out of nowhere. WTF? I think I'd feel a little "dubious," too. :P But as a perceptive person, Tifa probably got that vibe from Cloud. He didn't feel that way, and probably thought it was strange that she would feel that way about him. And at that point, I think she really was able to think to herself, "This is going nowhere," and just accept that they would have to settle for being a family. So she posed the Marlene question to correct herself and imply that she meant to ask about family love in the first place. :D

Two words: Damn straight. :cheer:

Hehe, glad you liked them! I love making ridiculous statements in sigs--it's what I live for. :lmao:

Luna:

It's so interesting to note how many different interpretations we can all pull out of this.

I think it's possible that she may still, deep inside, harbor romantic feelings for Cloud and will probably always do. However, it's not about whether she still has romantic feelings for Cloud or not, but I think whether she has fully understood and accepted Cloud's feelings or not. During the highwind scene, Tifa states that even without words, she knows what Cloud is thinking...which implies understanding, the title of that scene. I feel that the hand-reach scene at the end and Cloud's words about wanting to meet Aerith, afterwards, were THE last straw for Tifa and had sealed the LT. My understanding was that Tifa, sadly but being understandable, upon hearing Cloud's words, had fully acknowleged that Cloud doesn't love her the same way he loves Aerith. I guess the whole "closing her eyes and bowing her head" reaction did it for me. Your thoughts are very lovely, Luna, but in a way, it slightly contradicts my interpretation 'cos it gives me the impression that she never did quite accept the idea that he doesn't love her and that she hasn't quite fully moved on with her life either. But meh, who's to say that my interpretation of FFVII's ending was correct to begin with... :P

Also, I guess I find it a bit strange for her to have been perfectly fine with acknowledging Cloud and Barret as family, but at the same time, still be hoping that Cloud's feelings for her would change over time. Of course, perhaps it's possible, but more than anything, I'm just wondering why she would suddenly pull a question pertaining to "romantic love" out of nowhere. I didn't exactly see CoT focusing on Tifa's romantic thoughts anywhere, but pretty much just on thoughts of this "family" she has formed with Cloud and Barret, and keeping it together. It's very evident that this family relationship she shares with Cloud is something she very much wants. Ah, this is a very interesting discussion. ^_^

Luna is definitely Queen of ridiculous-statements-in-sigs :winner:

Daga15 and Tenshi_Aerith, although it's nice that you agree with each other, could you please not post so many one line and off-topic posts? That's considered spam. And instead of posting "I AGREE ONE HUNDRED PERCENT!" Try elaborating. It helps the discussion along instead of clogging up the thread. :]

Oh, btw, welcome Aerisbolt. I probably didn't see your intro thread, but it's always nice to have new people who know how to make long, detailed posts. ;]

I didn't see anyone addressing this, so I wanted to touch on this. Are you stating that Aeris and Cloud actively meet in the church? Because I'd have to disagree, even though it's a place that's special as they met there, it's not as if Tifa shouldn't be allowed there. Tifa was close to Aeris too, although maybe not as a best friend, but surely as a close friend.

Also, the church was far from where he was able to feel near to Aerith. I'd say that distinction would go to Aeris' gravesite and later the flowerfields, which I think, outlines one of his main issues. As Aerisbolt reminded everyone, Cloud has major guilt issues. And while it's sweet that he wants to be near Aeris, it's also NOT the way to get over things.

Cloud does attempt to move on at first, it must be remembered. Not "move on" in the sense of "Oh, I'm going to find a new love~!" More as in, "I'm going to keep living and everything will be alright in the end." However, Cloud keeps miring himself in the past--as does Tifa, although to an extent that is far less than Cloud. Tifa, however, pulls herself out of it and recognizes that Cloud must do the same thing. However, she tries to offer a helping hand by always giving him a path back to the present. Something to come back to--a "family". I don't think she's trying to prevent him from visiting his memories of Aeris, if she was, she'd tell him flat out not to visit Aeris' grave or Aeris' church. Tifa's just trying to ensure that he doesn't remain wallowed in his memories. In a way, it's like a mother tugging on the hands of her little boy, saying, "It's time to go."

hm i dont think tifa wanted cloud to move on....i think what she wanted was, to make cloud forget about aeris. She wanted to be the only one in his heart, shoe that is why she said:

you can go....to the church, but lets go togueter...

she want to make him realize that the one who is still alife she is she and not aeris. The same as when she tod him:

a memory....or us?

Tifa will always like cloud, she cant accept he dont like her, after all she was the popular girl...

Excuse me, but I've explained my reasoning why I think she said those things, would you like to explain yours (besides that's how you feel about her character)? :]

I don't think being popular makes you evil or mean or selfish. And I hardly think of Tifa has evil, mean or selfish. She makes mistakes, yes, but that doesn't mean she isn't tryin g her hardest. You may not agree with my thoughts on her character, but I'd appreciate an explanation why you seem so against her.

( sorry but its hard for me to write in english....if it was in spanish i would say a lot ot things...but... :unsure: )

im against her because i think she was jalous of aeris....that is one of muy reasons...in kalm, after cloud finish his story aeris will say something lke:

" the ancients....and me..."

and tifa will automatically say.

" lets go"


¡¡ she is not aeris friend, she ignores her!

Hmm... I think that the "Do you like Marlene?" was more of a backup because she (Tifa) still can't speak out her feelings, that, or she might have thought that, that wasn't the correct moment to tell Cloud about her feelings.

I think that my interpretation of FFVII's doesn't count anymore. For example: At the end of the game, I thought that Cloud had already overcome his inner issues and would be searching for the Promised Land or something, and he would have a strong personality. But after I saw him all depressed and moody in AC, I knew that my interpretation of the ending, didn't counted any longer.

If you want, you can post in spanish (or PM me what you want to post), and as soon as I have time, I'll translate it.

Clerith-son:

I'm just wondering if Tifa had romantic thoughts about Cloud anywhere else in CoT or if it was just that one line "do you love me?" smack in the middle of nowhere. Were there signs indicating that Tifa wanted to be more than just family with Cloud? I understand what you're saying...but what actually in CoT makes you think "romance" was on her mind? Was she portrayed to be unhappy about the fact that she and Cloud are just family and nothing more? Was she portrayed still dwelling on memories pertaining to Cloud's "rejection" of her feelings, etc.?

Well, AC builds on FFVII. Personally, I never saw Cloud as someone with "a strong personality". Cloud will always be Cloud, which is why I'm not surprised AC portrays him as still dwelling on what he believes is failure. Regarding the Promised Land, I'm still not sure it's a physical place Cloud can actually search for and find. All I know is only what I've thought about it all along, that it's different for everyone, but is a place of supreme happiness...and in Cloud's Promised Land, his land of supreme happiness, Aerith will be there so that he may meet her. I'm not sure what your interpretation of FFVII was concerning the LT, but as far as my interpretations of CoT and AC are, I didn't see anything that makes me believe I'd interpreted the ending of the game wrong, as far as the LT goes.

daga15:

Your English is fine, and it's okay that you think that way. Just to make the discussion go more smoothly though, I was wondering if you could explain why you would automatically assume that "let's go to the church together" is due to "jealousy" or because she'd wanted Cloud to "forget" Aerith. Didn't she thank Aerith for being there all along for them all? That means that she's glad Aerith was there for Cloud too, right? She's not trying to forget Aerith, so why do you think she would make Cloud forget her? What makes you think she wants to be the only one in his heart? What did you think her reaction was at the end of the game when Cloud stated that he wanted to go meet Aerith in the Promised Land? I mean, I saw sadness and even some understanding, but I don't think she was flat-out jealous. For one thing, she agreed to the idea of meeting Aerith. They weren't best of friends, but they sure weren't back-stabbing rivals. Have you ever considered that maybe she also wanted to see Aerith again, therefore, that's why she'd wanted to go with Cloud to the church? Did you think she was just pretending to cry then when Aerith was killed?

I agree with the first part...that Tifa will probably always have feelings for Cloud...but just because she still has those feelings doesn't automatically mean she hasn't accepted the idea that they're just family to one another now or that Cloud doesn't share her romantic feelings. As for popularity, I don't think that has anything to do with whether or not she has accepted the idea that Cloud doesn't return her feelings.

I kind of agree with Daga I mean I saw certain things as she wanted to be something to Cloud more than just his family. How exactly would you interpret Cloud saying he thought Aerith bought Denzel to him and Tifa shoots that down and includes herself in it. Cloud saying how he wants to go to the promised land to meet Aerith and Tifa says yeah let's go meet her there. Why would she say Cloud do you love me out of the blue if she didn't mean it in a romantic way? She changed it to do you love Marlene because she probably realized what she said so she changed it up. And what about her saying Cloud have "we" lost to a memory, I'm sorry but that sounds a little personal to me, it sounded like she was talking about her and Cloud and saying things like oh it's because we aren't a real family. How would you interpret that? It really sounds to me like she was trying her best to become something more to Cloud. I really don't know what to think, because one part she says that she has motherly feelings and she embraces these feelings and then she says Cloud do you love me...... and she asked him when she thought he was sleeping, and when she saw he was awake she changed it to do you love Marlene. As I said I have nothing against Tifa, I love her and I love her as a character and I think she's a great character but I notice that she wants to include her self in everything Cloud does like Cloud wanting to do the delivery thing and Tifa says why don't we do this.......... am I the only one that notices the pattern here lol?

I believe Hades has it correct, as does Aerisbolt.

Frankly, I think we're dealing with some irrational hate for Tifa, much like some rabid CloTi's will completely villify Aerith. Look guys, is it impossible to see that both girls are good to/for him in different ways without hating the other? Tifa is just about as much a jealous slut as Aerith is. Plz, just because Tifa is a bit more insecure than Aerith doesn't make her evil. :lmao:

I think that sole line ("Do you love me?") tells us that she still had feelings for Cloud. We don't see Tifa all cheesy around him, because she had to deal with loads of stuff as well.

Who knows? Maybe it can be assumed that for her, this family thing, could have been the start for something. At least, it is obvious that she wanted Cloud to become closer to her... and the rest of the family as well.

I'm going along with the fact that his growth in the game wasn't portrayed in the movie; actually, it was as if he hadn't even grown a bit. For me, him accepting his friends, smiling at the hand reach scene and his words regarding the Promised Land, meant that he had already overcome his inner issues, and started to become a strong person.