When the first trailers for AC came out, we were shown Kadaj kneeling to the WCM, staring up at him in reverence, gently taking his hand.

Lately, we have been shown Reno and Rude protecting the WCM from Kadaj. The WCM even wants to hire Cloud to protect him from Kadaj.

So, my question is... WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON??? :blink: Can someone explain this contradiction, please?

SPOILERS AHEAD

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The WCM is Rufus Shin-Ra. At that start of AC, Tifa says that 'Reno has a job for [Cloud]' and at this point it seems as though Reno and Rude are still bodyguarding Shin-Ra. At one part of the 25 minute presentation in Venice/Montreal (sp?) Kadaj is shown causing Reno and Rude to roll around on the floor in pain with a flick of his wrist. He tells Rufus something and it seems as though he teams with Kadaj at this point for his own purposes.

That doesn't seem enough to explain the contradiction. Kneeling before someone and taking their hand implies reverence. Rufus teaming up with Kadaj wouldn't be enough reason for Kadaj to show such reverence for him. It's possible that Kadaj is mocking Rufus rather than showing his reverence, but it seems to me that Kadaj is more of the type to laugh in his face rather than show mock reverence to him.

It would make more sense that Jenova and/or Sephiroth at some point inhabit the body of Rufus, and that Kadaj shows his reverence at that time.

If it's not something like that, then Square was probably misleading us. :lol:

Yeah, I knew that the WCM was supposed to be Rufus. However, why Kadaj would kneel before him and take his hand in such a loving manner is beyond me. :blink:

Exactly. It doesn't make sense. I mean, with what we were shown before, I was convinced that the WCM was Hojo (which would have been more interesting, IMO). The reason why I thought this was because Kadaj was looking after the WCM like a child would care for its ailing parent. And who would be the parent of "Jenova's" children? Hojo. But now, it is supposed to be Rufus... :huh: Hmm... Maybe you are right, Anastar. Maybe Jenova inhabits the body of Rufus at some point.

I completely agree... I thought for sure it was Hojo after we learned that the WCM wasn't Sephiroth. Hojo had so much more importance in terms of the story than Rufus. Hojo was behind almost everything that happened in FFVII - from the corruption of the Jenova project, the creation of Sephiroth, Lucrecia ending up under the waterfall, Sephiroth going insane, the experimentation done on Cloud, Vincent, and Red XIII. I think it'd be far more interesting to have Hojo as the WCM than Rufus. <_<

Yes, I agree with you on that. I was pretty disappointed when I found out that the WCM was Rufus. <_< First of all, I didn't think he was all that important as a character (Hojo was more important, IMO). Second of all, I want to know how the heck he avoided being killed when Weapon attacked Midgar. For Pete's sake, he received an explosion in the face! I assumed he was impaled by flying glass and debris. :blink: Hojo, on the other hand, injected himself with Jenova. So, it wouldn't be all that surprising if he survived. With Rufus... who the heck knows? But, they'd better explain how he survived in AC.

Uh, sorry to play the newbie, where was it confirmed that WCM=Rufus.
(I'm so out of the loop <_< :( )

In some of the latest trailers, the WCM is referred to as "Mr. President". And the last president of Shinra was Rufus. :D

That's the other part about it... don't you need Jenova cells in you to get Geostigma? When did Rufus ever get injected with Jenova cells? Hojo was injected with them, though.

And yes, I'm familiar with the theory that everyone got Jenova cells in them when the Lifestream washed over the Planet at the end of FFVII. However, I've never agreed with that theory because everyone should have Geostigma then. It wouldn't be limited to the WCM, Cloud, and the children - everyone including Tifa, Marlene, Barret, Reeve, Cid, and Red XIII would have it. But only certain individuals have it. Those people have been exposed to Jenova cells in some way. We know how Cloud was exposed, but how were the children exposed? That's discussed further in this thread: Where Did Geostigma Come From?

It hasn't been confirmed through official channels, as far as I know - but all the evidence points to it. There was a huge explanation of all the points indicating that the WCM is Rufus at AC.net, but they seem to have taken it down. Even his facial structure was discussed. :lol: At any rate, it looks 99% certain that it's Rufus. *gag*

Hey, you're right, I didn't think about that. :huh: Again, it would make a LOT more sense to me if the WCM was Hojo. <_<

I agree. <_< It would make the story so much more deep if they included Hojo. Then, we could have some interaction with Hojo and Vincent, we could see how Hojo created the SHM (I assume it was him), we could maybe even see Hojo interact with Sephiroth (if he truly returns). :huh: All I have to say is they'd better have a GOOD reason for using Rufus in this movie. <_<

Hojo is far, far too predictable for my liking. We know what happened to Vincent already, we know about Lucrecia's past too and Hojo could steal the stage from the OWA, which would not be a good thing. If the movie had time for a Vincent and Hojo confrontation... but it doesn't, sadly.

As for Kadaj's kneeling, Rufus could be giving the SHM a lot of financial backing or even paying for them to protect him and, like you said, it could be Kadaj mocking Rufus. Rufus was of a higher stature than Hojo anyway and neither Sephiroth or Cloud ever bowed before Hojo or showed him any respect.

And no, you don't need Jenova cells to get Geostigma. Sephiroth's energy was released into the planet, so you merely need to be alive.

I don't think Rufus really teamed up with Kadaj. Kadaj just held him hostage or something.
And I think that Kadaj just genuflected before Rufus not to show respect but he did that out of mockery since he's the President... and we all know that Rufus wants everyone to show him respect. <_<

Kadaj would pay that kind of respect to someone giving them financial backing? Sorry, but I can't buy it. I also can't see Kadaj doing that to mock Rufus. I think Kadaj would laugh in his face before kneeling in mockery. IF, however, Rufus finally provides them with Jenova's head, or Jenova inhabits Rufus's body, or something like that - then I could see Kadaj showing that kind of respect.

From what Vincent says, you do need Jenova cells to get Geostigma. It happens when the Lifestream in your body overworks itself trying to get rid of Jenova cells.

From the Venice FF:
Vincent: "Geostigma is the reaction of human bodies that are trying to expel some toxins... Sephiroth's gene, Jenova's cells, however you may want to call them. There is a thing like the Lifestream that flows in our bodies, and it is fighting against the wicked substance that has penetrated us. Geostigma is the result of all that."

From TGS:
Vincent: ‘Geostigma’ is when your body has overworked itself purging wicked substances from within itself.
Cloud: Wicked substances…(his expression shows that he knows exactly what they consist of)
Vincent: There’s something that resembles the lifestream flowing within our bodies, and that’s what’s fighting the evil substances that have intruded within.
The Calamity from the Skies….Jenova. As long as that’s around, it’s very plausible that a second Sephiroth can be created.

From the Montreal FF:
[Vincent] goes on to explain that there is a current resembling the Lifestream in their bodies that fights off invading alien matter. ... Vincent continues by clarifying that when the body overcompensates for the unwelcome guest, the result is Geostigma. ... He continues by saying that the alien matter in this situation is the Sephiroth gene. He also gives another name for it, "Jenova's genetic legacy".
Source: Daeya.org's Report on the Montreal Film Festival

So Geostigma happens when the lifestream in the human body overworks itself trying to get rid of Jenova cells within the body. Kadaj also wants the orphans to be part of the Reunion because of the Jenova cells in them. Kadaj is also controlling the children through the Jenova cells within them. The question is: how did the children get J cells in them?

That's what I was discussing here: Where Did Geostigma Come From? I don't buy the theory that it's the result of the Lifestream washing over everyone at the end of FFVII.

Yes, but you don't need to be a Jenova experiment, merely alive, anyone can get it because Sephiroth, a Jenova specimin was absorbed into the lifestream meaning those who are still developing and drawing life from the Jenova-contaminated lifestream, those under 21, especially the very young will be the most likely to get it.

I never said you had to be a Jenova experiment... I said you had to have J cells in you. The children are too old to be effected by the Lifestream. That would effect you from birth, which means that anyone under two years old would be contaminated from the Lifestream. We're looking at children older than that who have it. Denzel is what - 8? 10? And Marlene is about 7 years old. She doesn't have it.

Once you are born, the Lifestream is like your spirit. Age shouldn't be a determining factor, and Nomura said that adults as well as children can get it. Yet not all adults have it. Not all children have it.

Since it results from the Lifestream within people fighting Jenova cells, that means that the people who have Geostigma must have Jenova cells in them. So how did the children who were not born after the Lifestream became contaminated get Jenova cells in them?

I agree. ;) Does anyone have a picture of Kadaj's face when kneeling before the WCM?

Can Jenova cells be passed on through genes? If so, maybe these children are the offspring of SOLDIERs who were experimented on by Hojo (injected with Mako and Jenova cells)? :huh:

That was a theory I brought up in the thread on Geostigma - the only trouble with that theory is that it doesn't explain what happened to the mothers. We know that the SOLDIERs got buried underground by Meteor, but what could have happened to the mothers?

That would be fascinating, though. :rolleyes:

The SOLDIERs got buried underground by Meteor??? :blink: I am afraid I don't understand... :unsure:

I am not sure what might have happened to their mothers... :huh: Maybe they were killed when Meteor hit? That may be a little farfetched, though...

That's what was said in the news about Dirge of Cerberes. Nomura said that the Deep Underground SOLDIERs were SOLDIERs buried underground by Meteor. This is from an interview with Nomura in Dorimaga:

Nomura: ..... I can't say anymore (laughs). DC is the story about SOLDIERS trapped underground by Meteor, but there will also be a lot of hidden ShinRa projects showing up as well. Since Vincent used to be in the Turks, there will be parts he's connected to as well.

Source: http://forums.adventchildren.net/showpost....733&postcount=1
(Quote is from the translation by Vilaeth)

Doesn't work see, as very early on in AC's development, Nomura said that 'Star Scar Syndrome' effects the whole planet and that the young are more likely to get it, hence the title.

Jenova wiped out the ancients with a disease the first time Meteor came around and no one was exempt then. It took a while but soon most were dead, I don't think anyone is immune to the disease and I don't think that children of those infected have a higher chance than those who don't. Take Kadaj for example and Vincent, neither of those have Geostigma yet both are advanced Jenova/Mako specimin.

Yes, but the only people we know to have the disease so far are those who have Jenova cells. The orphans have Jenova cells because Kadaj wants to use them for the Reunion. We don't know that the WCM has J cells, but if it is indeed Rufus - he could easily have been injected with them at some point. Since Vincent said it was a over-reaction of the body trying to fight off Jenova cells, then it's logical that those with the symptoms have J cells in them. What we're trying to determine is how the children got the Jenova cells.

That wasn't when Meteor came around the first time - it was when Jenova crash landed on the Planet, which is why she is called the Crisis from the Sky.

Ifalna "2000 years ago, our ancestors, the Cetra, heard the cries of the Planet." "The first ones to discover the Planet's wound were the Cetra at the Knowlespole."
....
Ifalna "That's when the one who injured the Planet... or the 'crisis from the sky', as we call him, came."
....
Ifalna "The one the Professor mistook for a Cetra... was named Jenova. That is the 'crisis from the sky'."

The disease that the Cetra got was the manipulation of Jenova - those with a strong will were able to fight it in the same way that SOLDIERs can ignore the call to the Reunion. That's why some of the Cetra were able to confine Jenova to a geological stratum.

Ifalna "A small number of the surviving Cetra defeated Jenova, and confined it."

Some of the Cetra obviously lived, since the white materia was passed on to Ifalna and the race continued until the birth of Aerith. The Cetra confined Jenova to a geological stratum about 2000 years ago.

Sephiroth "....an organism that was apparently dead, was found in a 2000 year old geological stratum."

Given that the lifespan of a Cetra is less than 120 years, enough Cetra were left to continue the race for approximately 16+ generations. The Cetra race was not "killed off" by Jenova.

If that is so, then why didn't the Reunion in FFVII have any effect on him? I doubt Rufie would allow himself to be injected with something as unpredictable as Jenova Cells are. They do not grant any special powers or grant you immortality so I see no reason why Rufus would have them. Nah, Rufie is too smart as I bet he knows more about things than most think he does. ^_^

Well I suppose accident is out of the question. :rolleyes:
J cells are not really something you can get easily. I think in FFVII only Shinra had access to J cells but now that Shinra is nothing but a shadow of what it used to be I suppose some people who shouldn't have got their hands on them. But I do believe that the SHM are behind this, they are the ones who injected the children with the cells. That seems to make more sense than anything else at the moment. :rolleyes:

Hm. I thought WCM was already at the last stages of Geostigma... >_< But how did Rufus get the J cells...? Maybe being exposed to J cells can 'risk you' into getting the 'stigma?.... but the orphans' caretakers nor the Turks don't seem to have it.... Ah, I'm confused...

And I don't see why the SHM would inject the kids with J cells since I believe they wanna reconstruct the whole Jenova organism. Giving 'em to the kids would just make things a lot more complicated... although I would understand it if the kids were 'guinea pigs' of Hojo or some other whacked ShinRa scientist from before (hey, they weren't exactly ethical with their experiments, were they? Heh heh.)

EDIT: Oh yeah! I forgot my say on the topic. Heheh.

I believe that Kadaj was doing that to WCM out of mockery. Just to be more dramatic than the 'in-your-face' type of mocking that he would usually do. Heh heh.

Bow.

Yes, Rufus is in the last stages of Geostigma and strictly, he had to have had Jenova in his blood before Weapon hit as such a blast would have killed him and if it didn't, Meteor, crashing down over Midgar, certainly would have.

Nomura said that a disease is affecting the whole planet and then the SHM appear. It makes no sense for them to inject Denzel and then let him go, which is what they must have done, asuming your theory is correct as Tifa at one point (before Loz has Marlene, thus before Kadaj's speach to the children) looks after him.

Jenova killed the ancients with a disease, the humans, Cloud's kind survived because they hid. It was all recorded in Hojo, Lucrecia and Gast's notew on Jenova and the Cetra. Sephiroth tells Cloud/Zack it in the Nibleheim flashback.

If Nomura says the disease effects the whole planet, I'm going to trust him, heh.

Jenova came down on the first Meteor (So says Aerith, Gast, Hojo, Lucrecia and Sephiroth and, if you look on the wall of the Temple of the Ancients, one of the pictures is of Meteor coming down upon a group of ancients), like a summon, what wasn't killed by the Meteor would be killed by her disease. The Ultimate Destructive Magic.

I think Jenova isn't some random alien who just randomly crash landed, she's a summon and she shall not rest until she has destroyed everything because that if was Ultimate Destruction is.

It must have been a very small number if she's the ONLY ancient blooded creature on the planet.

You shouldn't trust anything at this point. Things are sometimes mistranslated (as we have seen far too many times) or they might say one thing but mean something completely different (that we have also seen far too many times).
Just keep your mind open and be prepared for nasty/nice surprises that will eventually be released to our attention. ;)

Rufus could always have been injected after the Reunion. Either that, or he had a strong enough will not to be effected by the Reunion.

I don't remember Nomura saying that Geostigma affected everyone. He said it was affecting the Planet, yes... although I don't remember him specifying the "whole" Planet. He did say that adults could be affected by it as well as children, but I don't remember him saying that everyone had Geostigma. There was a comment about Geostigma effecting the remaining inhabitants of the Planet, but if you say that the flu is effecting people in Massachusetts, that means that many people have it - not everyone. My point is that we don't know that everyone has it - the only people we do know to have it are Cloud, the WCM, and the orphans.

Yes, Sephiroth said the remaining Cetra hid - however, some of the Cetra survived, which is in the quotes that I provided above.

We only saw the first Meteor in the drawings in the Temple of Ancients. Nowhere is it specified that Jenova came down with the first Meteor.

If you can find any quotes which suggest that, please show them. Here's a link to the script: FFVII script at RPGamer

But this is 16+ generations later, so enough Cetra survived for the race to continue for 16 generations - 2000 years - until the birth of Aerith. Hojo stated that the lifespan of a Cetra is less than 120 years, so the same Cetra were not alive for 2000 years until the birth of Aerith. 2000 divided by 120 = 16 generations of Cetra.

That makes me think...perhaps after Rufus was hit by Diamond Weapons attack the only way to save him was by injecting him with Jenova cells, that would be a very good reason why he would have them. I can not come up with another good reason. He might have been so close to death that they got desperate and used Jenova cells in hopes of saving him.

He said that a disease was effecting the whole planet. I'll try to find the interview if I can.

As for Jenova coming down with Meteor. Infalna says that Meteor brought the crisis from the skies. Meteor brought Jenova. She also says that Meteor injured the planet, saying that the North Crater is the injury and the planet has not fully healed, that's why it's snowy. So Jenova caused the injury, the same injury that the first calling of Meteor caused. Jenova came with Meteor.

"That's when the one who injured the Planet... or the 'crisis
from the sky', as we call him, came."

Jenova spread the virus that killed most of the ancients

"He first approached as a friend, deceived them, and
finally...... gave them the virus."

This story is also told on the wall of the Temple of the ancients.

I just realised: Wasn't he at the very center of Meteor and the Liestream's fight for the planet if so, then wouldn't he have been exposed to the both? Making him the most developed carrier of Geostigma that there is? So... shouldn't everyone in Midgar at the time have been exposed to exactly the same thing?

I don't remember that being said.

Where does she say that Jenova came with Meteor?

How do you know that the same story is told on the walls of the Temple of Ancients? The paintings there are showing the first Meteor. How do you know it's also the story of Jenova arriving on the Planet?

Only IF Meteor and/or the Lifestream is what carried the Jenova cells, and that's the very theory that I've been rejecting. If Meteor and/or the Lifestream carried Jenova cells, then why doesn't everyone have Geostigma? Why do the orphans have it, but not Marlene? Why does Cloud have it when he was actually on board the Highwind and unaffected by the Lifestream and Meteor? Why do other inhabitants of Midgar seem unaffected by it?

She doesn't, but she says that the planet's injury (North Crater) was caused by Meteor and then she say that it was made by Jenova, heavily implying that they hit at the same time, that Jenova came down with Meteor.

See above, North Crater is where the wall says the first Meteor hit, it's also where Jenova was first found.

The Lifestream must have some Jenova cells within it as Jenova, Sephiroth, Hojo and Lucrecia all died and were absolved into the lifestream. Hojo, Sephiroth and Lucrecia could not avoid returning, according to Red's grandfather, all that is born from the planet, will return to it. As for Meteor: See above.

We have never been told that Marlene doesn't have Geostigma. Besides, she's different from anyone on the Planet, talking of the flower lady, spending time in Aerith's church, without ever speaking to her more than once or twice. Loz comes after her for a reason: she is special but in what way, we don't know yet. She's a bad example to use.

How would the orphans get Geostigma anyway? Kadaj and co. wouldn't inject them with Jenova cells and then let them go, he's not an idiot. Hojo is long gone and he wouldn't have managed to inject all of them, especially not whilst most of their parents were still alive. How?

Wow, this is all getting really interesting... :P I am not the most knowledgable on the Lifestream, Jenova, Geostigma, so I will just take notes. *Sits back to watch the debate*

BTW... isn't Lucrecia still alive? :blink:

I need your opinion on this, especially from you, darkslavechaos (because I can recognise your ability for reasoning and comprehension ;) )... you think since Rufus is the son of the Old Man President, that old guy let Hojo experiment on his own son that's why Rufus now has Jenova Cells? Rufus is 21 years old. Cloud is 21 years old. Those who are infected with Geostigma are children. Do you think that the SOLDIERs are their fathers and those SOLDIERs had been injected with Jenova Cells and exposed to Mako and those things had mixed into their bloodstreams, and then transfered to their offsprings (the children)?

Enlighten me. ;)

Rufus' father would experiment on his son. According to Rufus, they didn't exactly see eye to eye and it is left up to the player to imagine exactly why, there's the implication of abuse. Hojo we know is a little erm... insane so if he thought Rufus would make a good specimin, he'd surely try to get him. Also, Rufus is no doubt older than 23 (in AC) as in Before Crisis he's the Vice President, in charge of the Turks and seems to be a little older than 15, heh, I'd say he was in his thirties, or at least late twenties. Reno's age, if not Tseng's.

As for the SOLDIERs, the summeries of the film say that there is a knew threat to the planet, this being the disease and the implies that the planet itself is in danger. SO the lifestream is a probability.

Now, why would the children get it first, especially the Midgarian children? It's probable that they already had more of the substances needed to aquire the disease, this being Jenova and the Lifestream, mako. If their father's had mako in their body, they'd probably have more mako and it's possible that Hojo would have sliped them some Jenova cells too.

Take, for example, DC, which has 'SOLDIERs that were burried alive by Meteor' in it, now how would someone survive such a thing, Mako alone wouldn't let you, but Jenova might. Now this is Vincent's game, according to Nomura, DC will tell something of Vincent's history but he wasn't a SOLDIER and the only ones linked to him were Sephiroth and Zack, being Jenova specimin themselves. It's highly possibly that the Advent Children (a name which implies they will bring the apocalypse) were the children of SOLDIERS.

Forgot to put this link on my post prior to this... it's a magazine scan of Rufus and the Turks, plus his Old Man... indicating his age in the game.

Scan...

In AC, he'd be 23... same with Cloud.
Before Crisis takes place 6 years before the game, so Rufus and Cloud are around 15 there.

...and in connection to what you've mentioned about "Advent Children"...
Advent is the four preceding Sundays before Christmas... and it also signifies "the coming" or "an arrival that has been awaited"... or "the second coming".

...
Of who?

*am I confusing anyone?* :unsure:

No, she does not. She never says it was caused by Meteor. She said a wound was made to the Planet by Jenova, not Meteor. Jenova is the Crisis from the Sky.

Ifalna "2000 years ago, our ancestors, the Cetra, heard the cries of the Planet." "The first ones to discover the Planet's wound were the Cetra at the Knowlespole."
....
Ifalna "That's when the one who injured the Planet... or the 'crisis from the sky', as we call him, came."
....
Ifalna "The one the Professor mistook for a Cetra... was named Jenova. That is the 'crisis from the sky'."

She specifically says that the *one who injured the Planet* is the "Crisis from the Sky", and then she says that Jenova is the Crisis from the Sky. She never mentions Meteor.

The wall says nothing about the Northern Crater. All the wall shows is *a* Meteor, which may have been drawn only to show the power of the Black Materia. Nothing was ever said in the story about "the first Meteor". If you can find such a line saying that a Meteor had hit the Planet earlier, then show it to me.

I don't deny that the Lifestream has J cells in it. What I'm saying is that we don't know that people got the J cells from the Lifestream washing over them. The Lifestream is immense. It washed over the entire planet at the end of FFVII. The number of J cells in three bodies (Lucrecia was never confirmed dead) would be minuscule in comparison to the immensity of the Lifestream. The Lifestream fights J cells, so it's debatable whether the amount of J cells in three bodies could even survive in a hostile environment (the Lifestream would be a hostile environment for J cells). It's also very doubtful that the amount of J cells in three bodies would be enough to contaminate the entire population of the whole planet.

She's not showing the symptoms of Geostigma. The other children are. (And yes, I'm wondering why Marlene is special, too.)

I've been asking the same question for months! :lol: See this thread: Where Did Geostigma Come From? I reject the idea that it resulted from the Lifestream washing over people at the end of FFVII for the reasons I gave above and also because everyone would be showing symptoms if that's how they got the J cells in them. The only way I can think of is that the orphans may be the children of SOLDIERs... the only hole in that theory is that it doesn't explain what happened to their mothers.

Now wait, if stuff like Lifestream's battling the J cells in people, then wouldn't the lifestream ITSELF be able to destroy J cells that were INSIDE of it?

THERE ARE NO J CELLS IN THE LIFESTREAM!

Hahahaha, there is more discussion of Geostigma and the Lifestream than in the actual forum devoted to it...

Whew... where to begin?

Enlighten me on this. If there was no original meteor, and Jenova was responsible for injuring the planet... how exactly did she accomplish this injury? And how did the North Crater come about? Looks like one heck of an impact from something.

As far as who is being affected by Geostigma and who isn't: perhaps who has it and who doesn't at this stage has nothing to do with anything special, but that the disease strikes randomly and without a pattern. It seems that the vast majority of individuals on the planet seem to have been exposed to Jenova in some way, perhaps through Shinra industrial pollution (I mentioned something similar to this in the Geostigma forum), so anyone is susceptible, but just being susceptible doesn't necessarily mean you'll automatically get it. Perhaps it's just a matter of time before everyone gets the disease. When the Plague swept though Europe in the 13th century, everyone was susceptible, but not everyone caught it, and not everyone died. Those who survived or avoided the disease altogether were, above all else... lucky. Perhaps thats the same scenario with Geostigma? I have no real commitment to any theories, I'm just tossing an idea out.

It was never specified in the story, so we don't know. It only says that Jenova caused the injury to the Planet at the Northern Crater. Nothing was ever said about "a first Meteor" in the story. The injury was specifically said to be caused by Jenova, not by Meteor.

Yeah, somehow the discussion started up again here. :lol: We know that it has something to do with the Northern Crater, however, since it was originally called "Star Scar Syndrome". I've been told that the word "star" in Japanese also means "planet", and that it's the same word used for the Planet in FFVII. The Planet's scar is obviously the Northern Crater, which would lead us to believe that the disease is somehow associated with the Northern Crater. The name "Geostigma" also means "scar of the land", which again associates it with the Northern Crater.

We know that it's caused by the Lifestream within people over-reacting to the alien cells within them as it tries to fight them, which means that the Lifestream within people is fighting the Jenova cells within them. The question is how people got the Jenova cells in them.

The accepted theory right now is that the Lifestream became contaminated with Jenova cells by the bodies of Zack, Sephiroth, and Hojo dissipating into it, and by Jenova being adrift in it with Sephiroth for an unspecified length of time. Supposedly, the contaminated Lifestream washing over everyone at the end of FFVII was what exposed people to the Jenova cells.

If that is so, then why isn't everyone showing symptoms? How are the orphans affected, but not Marlene? Tifa, in particular, should be showing symptoms since she was adrift in the Lifestream with Cloud during the Lifestream Event. The people in Mideel also had the Lifestream wash over them when it erupted in addition to having it wash over them at the end of FFVII, yet there's been nothing shown about the people in Mideel having more susceptibility. The deep underground SOLDIERs also do not have it, and neither do the SHM. Wouldn't industrial pollutants laced with Jenova cells have the same effect? Shouldn't everyone be showing symptoms?

That's another point I was trying to make earlier. How would a relatively small amount of Jenova cells survive in the hostile environment of the Lifestream, especially when the Lifestream is so immense?

Firstly, Aerith's mother says that the injury is caused by Jenova but Sephiroth, who is in direct contact with his mother, says that it's by Meteor and Tseng comments of the mural wall being Meteor too. So within the came we are told that Meteor caused Northern Crater and then that Jenova did. Neither have been proven wrong and again, Sephiroth and jenova both know what the Black Materia does, when strictly, they shouldn't. Not unless it was summoned before. Also, if Jenova caused that wound before, why not cause another one when Sephiroth needed it during FFVII?

Zack was immune to Jenova treatment wasn't he? Some people must be immune, or at least more resiliant than others. Children, who are still growing and still drawing energy from around them, would be of a higher risk.

How would Jenova istelf survive on the planet? Headless too. She managed it, Jenova cells are far, far more potent and powerful than the lifestream.

Also, to quote the original synopsis on Geostigma "A disease that is threatening the planet"... This disease has the lifestream, or at least is enough of a threat to bring forth something like Weapon. The sentance implies that Geostigma or 'Star Scar Syndrome' is very dangerous, not just a minor disease that only effects a few people, otherwise it'd have no point or place within the movie.

As for the title 'Advent Children', 'Advent' is the second coming of Christ where he will kill us all and then judge us (the apocalypse). Sephiroth has a lot of parallels with Jesus Christ in FFVII and in AC... well, if you've seen the latest trailers, you know.

Okay, I haven't time to respond to your entire post at the moment, but here's all that was said at the Temple of Ancients about the wall mural and about Meteor:

------------
From Scene 81
- Meteor - A Wound So Large -

Sephiroth "A treasure house of knowledge..."
Cloud "I don't understand what you're saying!"
(Sephiroth starts laughing. The screen flashes white and he disappears. Cloud follows again, to the right. He finds Sephiroth, looking at a mural which depicts a huge round object hurtling earthward. He is trembling. He turns and comes toward Cloud.)
Sephiroth "Look well."
Cloud "At what!?"
Sephiroth "At that which adds to the knowledge of..."
Sephiroth "I am becoming one with the Planet."
(He lowers his arms slowly and begins to laugh. The screen goes white as he shoots skyward once more. Cloud follows to the right again. He finds Sephiroth this time reclining on the floor, leaned against a small altar.)
Sephiroth "Mother..... it's almost time...." "Soon..... we will become one."
(Sephiroth slowly stands. Aerith puts her hands on her hips, almost comically, as they all assume offensive stances.)
Aerith "How do you intend to become one with the Planet?"
(Sephiroth turns to Aerith and slashes his sword at the air.)
Sephiroth "It's simple." "Once the Planet is hurt, it gathers Spirit Energy to heal the injury."
Sephiroth "The amount of energy gathered depends on the size of the injury."
Sephiroth "...What would happen if there was an injury that threatened the very life of the Planet?" "Think how much energy would be gathered!"
(He pulls his sword from the ground. His whole body begins to flash, electrically, as he laughs.)
Sephiroth "Ha ha ha. And at the center of that injury, will be me." "All that boundless energy will be mine."
Sephiroth "By merging with all the energy of the Planet, I will become a new life form, a new existence." "Melding with the Planet... I will cease to exist as I am now." "Only to be reborn as a 'God' to rule over every soul."
(Sephiroth begins to pulse with energy, faster and faster, until his whole body glows an evil white.)
Aerith "An injury powerful enough to destroy the Planet?" "Injure... the Planet?"
Sephiroth "Behold that mural. The Ultimate Destructive Magic... Meteor."
Cloud "That'll never happen!"
(The screen flashes white as Sephiroth rushes past Cloud, flying through the air.)
"Wake up!!"
(The white fades. Everyone looks around the room, for Sephiroth.)
Cloud "Where are you! Sephiroth!"
(Cloud runs off.)
Aerith "Wait! Cloud!"


Scene 82
- The Black Materia -

(Cloud is standing before the mural of Meteor as the others catch up with him. His body flashes with the same electricity that Sephiroth's had moments before.)
Aerith "Cloud!!"
(Cloud turns his head slightly toward them, then goes back to the mural.)
Tifa "Hey, Cloud!"
(Cloud turns his head again to them, then back to the mural. Again he turns, then back. He starts laughing.)
Cloud "Ha ha ha.... Black Materia." "Ha ha ha.... Call Meteor."
Aerith "Cloud!! Get a hold of yourself!"

..... (Cloud has the episode where he splits in two in front of the mural - nothing relevant to Meteor is said.) ......

(She turns back and leans toward Cloud)
Aerith "Sephiroth got away."
Cloud "...Don't worry about it. I understood what he was saying."
(He looks up at the mural)
Cloud "So this must be Meteor, right?"
(Aerith nods. The others both look at the mural too.)
Tifa "Is something going to fall from the sky?"
(Aerith walks up to the mural)
Aerith "...this must be magic. Just what Sephiroth was saying."
Aerith "The Ultimate Destructive Magic, Meteor." "It finds small drifting planets with its magic."
Aerith "And then collides with them. This Planet might get wiped out entirely..."
(The room goes dark. They all try to keep their footing as it begins to shake back and forth.)
Cloud "Sephiroth!?"
(Sephiroth speaks to them from somewhere outside the room.)
Sephiroth "Ha ha ha... It is not me."

And then the boss battle with Red Dragon starts.
------------------

Now please show me where it says that the mural on the wall depicts the Northern Crater and the first Meteor? Where does it say that the Meteor was summoned? Where does it say that Jenova was involved with the "first Meteor"? In fact, where does it say anything about the "first Meteor"? Tseng only asks if the Temple is the Promised Land. Tseng says nothing about Meteor.

Sephiroth and Jenova would know about the black materia because they absorbed the wisdom of the Ancients within the Lifestream. Sephiroth said that he had, in fact, absorbed all that knowledge and became superior to the Ancients:

Sephiroth "...Ah, but I have."
(He floats up, over the pit.)
Sephiroth "I'm far superior to the Ancients." "I became a traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients." "I also gained the knowledge and wisdom of those after the extinction of the Ancients." "And soon, I will create the future."
Aerith "I won't let you do it! The future is not only yours!"

Since the Ancients built the Temple to house the black materia, they knew of its power. Since Sephiroth - and presumably, Jenova, since she was adrift with him - gained the knowledge of the Ancients within the Lifestream, he would know what the black materia does, too.

I'll respond to the rest of your post later today when I've got more time. :rolleyes: