An infamously popular question. Is Abortion murder?

Please support your opinion with reasons.

What's your reason Seeker?

There's no way to answer that question easily. I am pro choice, and I will tell you why. There are always the health of the mother, the baby being still born, or having other complications. There's also the possibility that the woman was raped, and got pregnant from that.
However, I don't believe in thirteen year olds who are way too young to be having sex anyway getting abortions. If they're mature enough to lay down, then they're mature enough to take responsibility for their actions, and either give the baby a good home, or give it up for adoption.

Abortion is always murder even if the reason is something like you have to have the baby aborted so that the mother's life could be saved because it's dangerous for her to conceive...
Even if it's just a fetus inside the mother's womb it already has life and I strongly believe that people do not have the right to take away other people's lives, even if it's just life that is still starting/developing... unless it's a necessary evil...

okay I don't know if i'm confusing you but...


:blink:

oh well... :unsure:

Abortion is murder, for the reason that it means taking away the life of a person.

I think that it's wrong because... well, it's killing people. If people get pregnant out of an accident, then it's their responsibility to deal with the consequences. I mean, they asked for it... <_<

As for rape victims... well, I don't know, but I think it would be worse if they let people kill the unborn child. Life's been violated once, and I think it would be worse if done twice.

(Of course, that's just me talking.)

I'm pro choice.

There was a case of a 16 year old girl in America being raped by her cousin and then seeking an illegal abortion. If I was that girl and I was made to bare that child, I'd hate it so much that I'd keep it and make it suffer for every horrid thing that it would have done to me. It would have ruined my life and I'm not selfless enought to let another person do that.

Say a condom bursts, it's no one's fault then either and if someone isn't ready for a child, I think they should be allowed to do it.

Also, if the mother's life is indangered, kill the child. For as soon as that child's mother dies during childbirth, the baby is as much of a murderer as any doctor who might abort a pregnacy for someone, or the mother choosing to do it. It's at least involentary manslaughter.

I totally agree with darkslavechaos. You say that the parents are at fault and should take responsibility. Sure, but what about the chikld? Will it have a nice life? You know, being wanted and being an accident are two different things. Would you like to hear something like : why did you have to appear, you ruined my life, you were an accident. Luckily I never heard it and I know my parents wanted me and, if I believed in god, I would thank him everyday. And when the mother dies, wouldn't you feel a little responsible for her death? After all, if it weren't for you, she'd still be alive! I think that, taking a life that hasn't lived yet, is not a crime.

Why do I think it's always murder?

Because I consider the foetus to be a child - a person - not a thing. And so, the killing of any person unjustly is murder, I think.

But that seems to be a gross oversimplification, I think. Lemme go to some of the specific cases.

For rape victims it is difficult. As a man, I can only imagine they pain and hatred a mother would bare for the offspring of a man who abused and humiliated her in arguably the worst way possible. However, also as a man, I can imagine how <b>I</b> would feel if I were the husband of a woman who was raped and she conceived. But the reason for an abortion in that case appears primarily selfish: you're doing it for your own feelings or even to get back at the raper. Admittedly, it may also be for the child's sake - you may know that you'll treat him horribly and want to prevent that. That is somewhat admirable...but no less excusable than killing a family member who's coming to live with you because you hate her.

Let the baby live.

Where the child may be born with deformities it seems excusable. Let's be humane and stop her suffering before it starts, no? Or let's do what's 'right' and save the parents' the expense and emotional turmoil of minding that child, right? Well, I think that whatever you think about this would tied to your views on euthanasia...which I don't really have.

So, for now, I'll give a tentative "It's wrong" without knowing or feeling why.

When there are complications that may seriously affect the mother's health, even resulting in death.... It comes down to the simple issue of choosing to sacrifice one life for another, or seeing if one life will sacrifice itself for the other (since there's always the chance that both will live). In cases like this it's hard to decide which life is "worth more" or if we should take action to preserve one life by consciously, pre-meditatively killing another. One may also wonder if the killing in this case is just and deserved, and so not murder. It also has the issue of emotional complications for the family of the baby and his mother.

So I'm a bit unsure but I'll stick with "Let the baby live" for now.

And that, I think, is what I think. I'm still thinking about this a lot, so it may change....

I'm pro-choice. It's no one else's decision what a woman does with her body, and no one should be able to judge her for it. There are so many different circumstances surrounding abortion, rape, difficulties in labour - for example when the placenta detaches from the baby and there's danger of the mother bleeding to death - and there's no way you can account for all of them. Abortion isn't to be taken lightly, but in the end, it's up to the mother, no one else.

I'd have to disagree with you there, Seeker. There is no way that a woman would ever abort a child to get back at the rapist. A lot of thought goes into abortion, it would be the hardest decision a woman would ever have to make. There is no way that a woman would get rid of a life growing inside her, whether the product of a rape or not, simply to get back at the rapist. Maybe it is selfish, that the woman is doing it for her own feelings, but put yourself in that position. The life growing inside you wasn't planned, wasn't wanted - was the result of a rape. If it isn't bad enough having to deal with the aftermath of a rape, can you imagine how much worse it would be to feel a baby growing inside you because of this? It isn't the baby's fault, no, but imagine if you did keep the baby. It would undoubtedly have some of its father's characteristics. Every time you looked at the baby, you'd be reminded of your rape, less than a year after it happened. Could you deal with that? Comparing it to killing a family member you hate is absurd. There's a world of difference.

I'm totally with you, Madame Batolli! I think it's up to the women to decide, so she can choose to keep it or not. But if you can't abort, you don't have a choice and will suffer cause of that. And to worry only with your happiness and not the baby's not being selfish, cause he hasn't lived, he may have a life, but he isn't truly living, but the mother is and the ppl around her.
Btw, I don't think men should vote either... <_<

The child is more than a "part" of the woman's body.

It's a difficult issue...and as I said, I'm still thinking about it myself. I can see the merits of the pro-choice position...and I'm also well aware of its failings...

One can never tell. I commented on it because I heard someone mention that possibility.

I can only imagine how agonising it would be in that case...and I'm quite certain it's far worse than that. I also know that me not being in the position makes it seem as if I'm in no position to 'judge.' But I would disagree. I'm not saying that what I'm proposing is easy. Doing what is right is more often difficult than it is easy, but difficulty doesn't make it any less right.

The mother can give the baby up for adoption.

Or, if she's up to it and has the right kind of help, she herself can go through the trial of making profound good come out of one of the worst of evils. She can take the cruel hand dealt to her by circumstances and fashion it into splendorous good for all to see, marvel and emulate if possible.

I agree. This situation is unique, and my analogy fails on multiple levels. However, I think it works on the one I intended for it to - murdering a family member because you fear or know that you'll treat him/her horribly is wrong.

If the mother is capable of conceiving and there would be no complications on her life or on the child's life, then the least she could do, I think, is to give birth to the child and just give the child away or leave it in an orphanage.

I don't like abortion, I'd never do that even if my life depended on it; I think I'd rather have my child delivered (if ever I'll have a child in the future) and risk my life doing so... it's just a matter of my conscience telling me "what if you and the child switch places and your child decides to kill you? wouldn't that be nice?"...

I don't want children. At all. Ever. For me, a child is too stressful and would get in the way of a career so if I ever become pregnant, I'll have it aborted.

As for having the kid, then giving it away. A lot of kids grow up depressed because of it. Thinking they weren't wanted and it's sad because that's true. Nobody wanted them. A frightening number of adopted kids commit suicide because of reason relating to thier parentage.

Going through nine months of hell, for something I don't want at all would be something that would destroy me as a person. I'd consume my heart, mind and soul. It would kill me and it would kill a lot of other people too.

Yes, killing it 'because I wanted a boy, not a girl' isn't the greatest reason in the world but should that person have to have that child anyway? They may grow up in a family that hates it, that wants it to suffer, that abuses it. Sometimes Abortions are far more humane.

It?

While children put up for adoption are no doubt insecure and some do commit suicide, I doub the incidence is as high as you make it out to be. These children have a chance and opportunity to become something and contribute to the world. Undoubtedly, orphanages may be difficult and foster home even more so. But they still have a chance, a chance that an abortion steals from them.

I'm sure you're stronger than that. And besides, as they say, weeping may endure for the night but joy cometh in the morning.

Or he may group up in a family that loves him, cherishes him and becomes increasingly grateful that it didn't murder him.

Besides, bad home situations are hardly reason enough to murder a child. Ever so often, a child defies his destiny and becomes more than just a product of his environment. It would be pitiable if someone kills the next Hawking or Lincoln because s/he thought that he would grow up in an abusive home and be of no profit to society.

Yes but most are unhappy with life over 75% recieve councilling and threapy at some point in their lives

Heh, a child for myself would not be joy. It would he a hinderance to a relationship, it would destroty or at least drastically change whatever social life I may have had, it would demand so much of my time that they'd barely be enough for any personal life at all. To me a young child would be a burden and at this age, it would cause me so much pain and grief that I could never, ever love or care for it. I'd want it to suffer as much as it made me suffer.

What about the biological mother's life, she could be a beautiful, clever woman with a loving husband and a happy life and then this baby could come and put her life in danger, why sacrifice everything that young woman has done with her life for the sake of something else that may or may not be good. Could the husband cope as a single father? would he want to knowing that that little creature has murdered his wife?

Every case is individual and you can't say 'it's all bad' because not any one case is the same.

But they still have the chance that abortoin would have robbed them of.

You can never know.

But perhaps you shouldn't have children. So don't do something for which you can't bear the consequences.

It depends on how he looks at it. She willing gave up her life for the child, then he may be motivated to do his very best for the sake of the child and his mother who sacrificed everything for him. So, in that regard, how things turn out depend on the involved people's attitude. But regardless, whether it's right or wrong shouldn't vary with that.

As for what becomes of the mother...that's a good question. As I said, I'm not concrete on the issue where death is involved....

Perhaps, perhaps not....

I suppose that depends on when you consider a baby a baby. I don't consider the foetus to be a 'person' until it develops a structure, a heartbeat, organs and a brain. Still, the baby is a part of its mother, she is the one who has to carry this child for nine months and go through all the side-effects of pregnancy, and it is the mother's decision whether she wants to keep that child.

Mm, I can also see the merits of pro-life. I can understand your argument, but I still think it should ultimately be the mother's decision, and she should be allowed to consider abortion as an option.

It would take an extemely immature woman to consider abortion for no other reason than to get back at her rapist. I can't understand how abortion would affect the rapist, anyway, unless they wanted to become a father, and raped the woman for this reason.

It's not just about being reminded of the rape after the birth though, Seeker, it's about being reminded of it for nine months, every time the baby moves, every time you see your stomach once you've started showing. Pregnancy is supposed to be the most wonderful time of a woman's life, a beautiful thing. The mother would have to carry the baby for nine months, being reminded of what happened to her each day, before the baby was born and could be given up for adoption. Also, going through the pain of labour and then giving away the baby, unwanted or not, would be agonizing. Why should a woman who's already been through such pain and humilation have to go through the torment of carrying a part of her rapist with her for nine months, and then this, too? I know it isn't just a part of her rapist, that it is a part of her, too, and that it is a baby, but as I've said, it depends on how the mother feels about her pregnancy, and what she wants to do.

I don't think it's about fearing you'll treat the baby horribly, though. It's about what I said above.

I'm pro-choice, but that doesn't mean I support abortion no matter what. I think it's more humane to prevent the child from suffering than to force them to grow up in an unhappy, or unloving home. My mother had an abortion after my older sister was born, because she got pregnant again and then my sister's dad left for another woman. I shudder to think about what might have happened, because during the Reagan Administration, my mom lost both jobs that she managed to get, and she and my sister were almost homeless, struggling to make it.
If my mother had given birth to that child, then my sister, and my mother, and the child wouldn't have been able to eat everyday. They would undoubtedly have wound up on the streets at some point. I don't know what their lives would be like now, and I would probably not be here either.
If my mother had given birth and put it in an adoption agency, during the pregnancy she would never have been able to work in the later stages. She couldn't afford to take a month or two off to take it easy, rest, and nurse the child. Everyone would have suffered.
Their life was difficult enough when my mom suddenly had to take care of my sister, and lost her job at the post office and her teaching job. Having to carry that baby around all that time wouldn't fix things. The baby would have destroyed their struggling lives, and I don't know what would have happened, but I'll tell you this: It would not have grown up in a safe, happy, loving family and my mom would have had a tough time looking after my seven-month-old sister and a new baby while trying to find work and put food on the table.
Now however, my sister is living happily with her husband and two children. I'm fine and although things have been tough at times, we grew up happy and loved. But this life might never have existed before. It's called family planning, and without it, I don't know what would have happened to my mother and sister.

I don't think it's fair to say that you should take the child of your rapist and help it grow, because you'll never understand how difficult that is. I hope I never have to experience a rape, but it's not something you can just "move on" from. Years after the event, girls and women still need counciling. It leaves scars that can never heal. To be as bold to say that a woman and a woman's family could just accept that child and love it is a bit of a stretch. If people are strong enough to do that, then by all means, they can keep the child. But to expect a woman who has been degraded and used by a man to just carry that child around with her and forget what caused it is just unbelieveable.

And there is just as great a likelihood that the next Charles Manson or Robert Yates would be aborted because s/he thought that he would grow up in an abusive home and be of no profit to society.

Yes, it is ultimately her decision. But the relationship between the mother and the unborn child is quite similar to that between her and the newborn chlid - it's symbiotic with the baby being totally helpless and unable to live without the mother. Admittedly, after birth, there are substitutes for the mother; but before birth, there are none.....

Now why did I say all of that?

I can understand your argument too, but think as I said before.

Ideally. I doubt you'd find a mother who would describe pregnancy as something she'd like to relive, regardless of whether or not she wanted the child. Usually, the pregnancy is a necessary prerequisite to the miracle and wonder of birth. But then not many women want to relive the pain of childbirth either, do they?

Yeah...it would be confounding the regular pain and trials of pregnancy with the additional ones of the knowledge and feelings of the rape. So yes, I can see the difficulty.... But does the difficulty make it any less right?

That's it, it's time for me to step in...

You have a small point there, NOT every case is the same.

I believe that the only reason for an abortion would be the direct endangerment of the mother. Anything else (due to an accidental conceivement, rape, not wanting the child, whatever...) is nothing but pure murder.

This is not an "it" we are talking about, it is a HUMAN BEING. What if your parents had an abortion with you? You wouldn't be here reading this! You wouldn't be sitting at home, the library, school, a friend's house, whatever!!!!


THE POINT IS... Abortion is taking the life of a human being, MURDER!

I agree with you,
but other than that, even if they know the consequences, mothers, rape victims and such still go through with this process. Why they do so , I dun wanna know as it's quite sad that, just because of certain reasons, an unborn child has to undergo such a tragic fate . :(

It's unfair to let something innocent like an unborn child just pass on to the next world , just because he/ she is unwanted, an accident and such. I know it may be hard to forget the times of when one is raped and all, but there are other ways to do so than by doing abortion. Abortion will just make it worse (read an article about it).

I wholeheartedly agree with you, Enima...

I have pretty strong opinions about this but I have no energy to share my thoughts at the moment. But I do wish to know something...I've been talking about this with friends and strangers alike for years and I've noticed that most religious people tend to be against abortion very strongly unlike people like me (atheist and such) who seem to have, well, more open mind. I did not mean that to be offensive, I just didn't know how else to put it. When you speak in language other than your mother language you sometimes tend to have troubles finding the right words when you're trying to explain yourself and transfer your thoughts into words. :rolleyes:

So, all you who are against abortion, more or less, are you religious? Do you believe in god or some other great unknown entity? I like to know what kind of people are against abortion and who are for it. That's all.

Yeah. I'm a Christian.

Well, i'm a christian.

I'm just not totally diehard

I'm an atheist, but then of course, I'm not against abortion either ... :huh:

I have a friend who's Catholic, who doesn't approve of abortion, but thinks it's acceptable in certain cases, (rape, incest, endangerment of mother's life, etc). What I think is stupid is when people are avidly against abortion and then go on to talk about all the animals they've hunted ... gr ...

I don't really think my agnostic friend cares one way or another, and another atheist friend that I have doesn't really think abortion is the end of the world. I think in general religious people tend to have more of a negative opinion about abortion than those who don't have a religion.

What? Why?

I don't believe that abortion is murder.
And yes, I'm a Christian.
For me to explain this would take forever, so I'm just going to leave it at that. But the more I studied the Bible, the more life makes sense.

There are factors to take into consideration.

I personally think that abortion is murder, the killing of the unborn who can't even defend themselves. I am babtist, but that is besides the point (I felt the same way before I even became a christian). Abortion isn't a religious issue, it's a moral/civil issue. A human rights issue.


However, if a woman is having an ectopic pregnancy, abortion is the only choice other than death to both the mother and child.

A woman's body may reject the child for any number of reasons, causing a miscarriage, which is in a sense a type of abortion.


Other than that, I believe medical abortion is a gruesome practice. It involves the suctioning out of the baby with a force more powerful than a vacuum cleaner. The baby's body is instantly torn apart limb from limb.

<a href="http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_18.asp">Abortion Facts</a>
The page is pretty descriptive and does contain some diagrams and photos.


To think that people are destroying unborn children in such a way is barbaric and inhumane.


If a child is unwanted in a woman's life, then why doesn't she give it up for adoption, rather than killing it? There are so many women in the world who are unable to have their own children and would want to adopt another's child. They pay thousands of dollars to "have" their child. And so, in a sense, all children are wanted children.

And I do know a handful of people who have been raped, or had their children when they were extremely young (13y/o - 15y/o). They thought of abortion, some even went in for the procedure, but then chose to continue through and have the baby. They didn't give their children up for adoption either. I admire these women. They have an unbelieveable inner strength that cannot be described.

Sometimes accidents make the most wonderful surprises.



Pregnancy doesn't just "poof" come out of nowhere either. If people don't want to have a child, then they shouldn't be having sex. There is no fool-proof form of birth control, aside from Tubal Ligation or Abstinance. And if you're willing to take the risk, then you should be willing to accept the consequences of your actions.

I think hunting is fine so long as you're hunting for food.
However trophy hunting is another thing (in my opinion).

great post, shannon

After reading your posts, I'll probably sound cold hearted.

I don't think it's murder, for the most part. Sometimes, depending on the stage of life the unborn baby is.

Murder is when a person kills a person. Well, if the baby isn't developed yet, I wouldn't call it a person. I know, that it is a human being, but I don't consider it a person when it hasn't developed its own thoughts, yet.

On the other hand, it is a human. And the mother, depending on the situatuon, could have gotten pregnant by her own free will, or raped. If it was her free will, I'd be more strict with the idea of abortion, because she got herself into it, she can deal with the consequences. If she was raped, I could understand the abortion part. It wasn't her fault that she got pregnent, and if she doesn't want the baby she never planned, it's her choice. Overall, I think if it was a rape situation, abortion is necessary. Other than that, I think the baby should be born.

Fetal Development

Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days

They can respond to stimulus at 6-7 weeks

They start breathing at 11-12 weeks

REM dreaming has been demonstrated at 23 weeks and have been recorded at 17 weeks

I know, I know, thank you for the link and the facts, but I mean, as long as the abortion takes place before they have occurred, I wouldn't call it murder.

Im sorry, that you don't agree, but that is my opinion, and I will stand by it. :)

Yes, but facts remain that most people don't find out that they're even pregnant until after the baby's heart and all has started beating... and the brain begins functioning.

see... most people get pregnant about 2-2.5 weeks before their period. And since most people don't have regular periods, they may mistake it as being late, or missing a month, etc.

So, by the time they figure out that they indeed are pregnant, the baby is very much alive at the time if they do so decide to get an abortion.

(I've just been looking up a lot on fetal development and all recently since I plan on having kids myself in the near future...)

I mean, most natural abortions occur before anything begins functioning as well... And that isn't considered murder.

And guess it's just my own thoughts... but as for rape... it may not be the mothers fault, but it's not that babys fault either...



And most people who get abortions aren't raped, it isn't for medical reasons, etc.
Many people use abortion as their form of birth control, and often the abortion clinics don't tell you what they're exactly doing and such because they funding for every baby they kill.

I agree with you about the birth control thing. I mean, if the mother decides on having an abortion as her way of birth control, it shouldn't be allowed. I think abortion should only be allowed to those who are raped, or something. If it was her own fault, she should go through with what she started. She must have known the risks, so if she got pregnent, the baby should be born.

I know, it's not the baby's fault either, but, does the baby even care? It hasn't made an emotional attatchment to anything, has it? I'm asking these questions to you, Shannon, because I know you have been reading things recently, and I'm curious for these answers. :) I'm not saying the baby should be punished. If anyone gets punished it should be the mother or father, or both. I'm just saying, no one realizes that it could be murder, when they don't look at a person who doesn't feel emotion yet. They look at it as an object. :(

I don't think the baby would know how to care...
Even some young children for that matter.
Actually, the same thing can be said for a great number of full grown adults.

Caring is a taught emotion that is taught by having their basic needs met as an infant, and growing from there. Emotional attatchment (trust) is made from there at around a few months of age. And if that emotional attachment isn't made, then that person may never know how to care.


However the baby certainly does feel emotion, on a basic level at that point. If you poke it, it will feel pain, it can hear you and respond. It gets upset and happy and such.

And I'm pretty sure if that baby knew it was going to be sucked out and ripped literally limb from limb, it wouldn't want to die. And babies who have had the partial birth abortions do protest, flinging their limbs around, and jerk rigid just as the scissors are jammed into the back of their head...


I realize that some people look at a fetus as an object, and don't care if it is alive or not, but isn't that the problem with todays society? Their lack of vaule on life...

If you don't care if something is alive or not, of course you won't care if you kill it. Or someone else kills it. Right? Isn't that the problem?

Actually, I think that's what's gone wrong with the world today. People who didn't get that emotional attatchment (trust) as a child, for whatever reason, and haven't learned how to care themselves... which is sad too :(



The problem with regulating abortions like how you've said is that it simply can't be done. If I had time, I could think of the legal terminology... but alas, I just know it'd be illegal. If society is to allow abortions for one person, then as a result, they would have to offer them to everyone reguardless of the conditions. Which is what is going on...

And that is especially true for the clinics that bring in money from each kill. They don't care if it is used as a form of birth control or not, or if the girl's been raped, etc. Most places don't want you to change your mind about going through with the procedure. They just want the government funding.


(And personally, I think a rape victim would better solve their grief through counseling than an abortion... Because, later on in life, you'll think back and mourn not only the crime, but possibly the death of the baby as well... regret for doing it and all...)


I don't think anyone should be punished for the accidental conception of a baby.... but if it isn't wanted by its biological parents, I wish people would just give the baby up for adoption. Especially since there are so many people who are unable to have kids... Then if the biological parents ever did want to be a part of that child's life, there would still be that opportunity...

But why is abortion wrong? Because it is killing? But why is killing wrong? Because it is to create order? Because it affects the people who knew that person? Or..because of religious doctrines? (You'll go to hell, cause the bible said so, etc etc...) And depending on your answer, is abortion really killing?
If it were to create order, is it to say that abortion must be forbidden to force people who have 'accidently' (or whatever the situation is) become pregnant in order to maintain the human population?
If it is because it will affect those who knew him/her, a baby unborn, has it really yet affected lives? And if it were not born, would anything really be lost? (Unless the pregnant mother has gone to be attached to it...er...the nothingness there...)
And if it was for religious reasons then...well if you believe in that stuff, then believe. But for those who do not, have an excuse to believe abortion is not murder.

There are other reasons too why killing is wrong (and 'just because/its just morally wrong' doesn't count as it is not an actual reason), but I can't really think at the moment. o_O
A lot will just say 'it is just wrong because it feels wrong', but it is important to fully realize why it is so, incase it is just from being conditioned to feel that way. (homosexuality for one thing...but thats for another thread). If it were for religious beliefs, then nothing can be done - what you believe in is what you believe in. But in that case, it is just a matter of opinion. (Even though I think this topic is also just a matter of opinion and how one sees things). And to create order, I think that its a pretty big reason(for not killing, not for no abortions), but most likely no one here will bother arguing such a point, and the affecting lives probably is the most argued now. Those who think it is not murder would say it doesn't affect anyone since it has yet to be born and is not yet 'there' (well, at least that is what I'd say). Just it having brainwaves doesn't mean much to such a thing. So far in the womb it only knows darkness. (If its even that developped...it probably just knows nothingness) and besides, it also depends if you believe in the afterlife (or some spiritual...thing) as if you do not, if it were to die, it would be like it never existed (returns to nothingness). Well, thats just my view. It wouldn't really be cruel since the embryo/feotus knows nothing of anything, and no one knows anythng of the feotus...

As for giving for adoptions..there are really enough chlidren parentless...forcing pregnant females to have baby just to give it away for adoption would really increase that number by a lot...I guess I can't really say the numbers for in NA or European countries but I do know for a fact right now in China the amount of abandon girls are HUGE that the orphanage runing out of place...of course, it is easily can be said that a lot of white parents looking to adopt would probably want one that is also white...sadly. And again I don't know how many children are given off for adoption in NA or Europe so I can't say much regarding this...

You both have good points.

I like what you said about adoption. Putting the baby up for adoption would just add another homeless child to the world.

Yet, it would be nice for the baby to have a chance at life.

~*~Shannon~*~, you are right, that is the problem with society today. They don't care. But, just ask yourself, who determines right and wrong? What's wrong to you, might be right to another person. Like Onigiri said, it could be based on religion, etc. It's opinion, so the sad thing is, no matter what we think individually, society will decide how to do things.. :(

People don't understand that sometimes, the mother can't deal with being pregnant for nine months. What if she can't afford to take a month or two off to go through the child birth? Then what, she just leaves the child off at an orphanage. Some people are selfish, forcing their moral beliefs on other people. I'm sorry, I'm not directing that at anyone in particular, but some people I have met, care so much about whether an embryo can feel pain, but themselves have no remorse whatsoever when it's hunting season and they bag a deer.

And people who value life so much, but support the death penalty? Or people who are so pro-life that they want to eliminate birth control. Because we should all stay good little virgins until we're married, right?! Or people who care so much about not allowing homosexuals to get married, because it violates the "sanctity of marriage," while simultaneously getting a divorce.

Sorry, I don't hate religious people, but I do hate people who try to make their personal opinions, prejiduces and religious values the law of the land.

But if that were the case, then the killing of any person at any age wouldn't matter... I mean, if it IS just decreasing the surface population and all...

Who's to say what is right or wrong, correct? It is only a matter of opinion as you say.

Maybe someone should just come along and start randomly killing people off for the sheer purpose of reducing the world wide populus. They shouldn't go to jail, or be punished. It IS just their opinion, correct? Nobody should say they're wrong or impose morals/values.


And if one were to say that there is a difference in the killing of the unborn and those who have been born, I would like to ask you what it is. First you would have to determine what is and is not considered being alive. Which scientifically speaking, would be considered brain waves and thought patterns. And since that exists, there is no other difference other than the age of the person involved.


As for adoption, there are MANY families all across the US that DO pay thousands of dollars to adopt. And since there's a lack of adoptable children here, they often do go to other countries, mainly from Asia. And most of the familes that I've known have adopted children from China, and of course, are mostly girls. And for the most part were 'white' as you would say. Our population is extremely diverse as far as race goes. And aside from the southern states (In my experience), there are a high number of interracial marriages/couplings.

And isn't the amount of abandoned girls in China due to the fact that women are viewed as inferior to men (culturally). And that due to the current population, people are limited to only one child per family unless they pay for another? And seeing as male's are prefered, I can see why so many people would abandon their daughter's for a chance to have a male child.




I personally think birth control is wonderful!
(I would never use it myself, but that's another story)

If people DON'T want to have a child, then they should be on the pill or patch, or whatever. Condoms themselves are fine, but aren't a 100% guaruntee. Then at least they're trying to prevent pregnancy. And they aren't out to destroying life. It would prevent a signifigant number of deaths in my opinion. Chemical methods of birth control should be more readily available to the public.

Sadly, many girls don't take the pill and DO use abortion as their means of birth control. Including married women who have already have children.

Also, women don't need 1-2 months off of work after giving birth. That time off is mainly bonding time with the new child, and has nothing to do with possible work performance. A woman who has a normal birth is usually fine after a few days of rest.



I'm not out to force my personal opinion, values, morals, or Religion on anyone (at least I don't think I've mentioned anything about religion as of yet...). And I don't know about any of the other countries, but The US was founded on religion, and therefore was a part of the creation of the law of our land. Religion plays a very important part in the values in our country, despite how many people would like to try and erase it from history. But like I said, that's just the US, I'm not completely familiar with the other countries.


People should be able to discuss their points of views openly. Society may decide how to do things, but it is the people that run society. One person can change the world. One person can change the minds of millions. Think back through history how many times that's happened. It just takes a lot of time and faith in the belief that it will happen.


I'm not being selfish (if that was directed to me), I'm mearely getting my point across. Take it at face value, because I know I'm not going to change anyone's opinion, especially when some people have their mind so firmly set on something. Ya'll have read the facts and made your decision, however, others have not. They should be able to hear both sides of the controversy. And they should know what happens during the abortion, see the pictures of the fetal remains in the garbage can. Then if they do so choose, it's on them. People should be able to hear both sides.




If anyone is pro-death, then what exactly are those reasons? I haven't really read anything other than the belief that it is imposing values/morals/religion on another. Or decreases the surface population. (Sounds like Scrooge in "A Christmas Carol")

Nobody has really said anything factual at all. It's all finger pointing.
If you believe something, what is the reason? where's the "because"?
If there's no reason, then what's the purpose of saying anything?
Merely to claim others are forcing their opinion on others?
If so, then that is a very foolish reason.

Just so ya know, the bible doesn't say you'll go to hell for killing...
adultury, cursing, lies, or homosexuality, etc. etc. etc......
But that in itself would be a religious topic, and I won't discuss it in this thread.

Also, just another lil fact about christianity that I think ya'll should know...
90% of people claiming to be christians, who go to church, are not.
That's a pretty large number, don't ya think?