This is my first time opening a new topic, and if there is another one like this, please let me know. But I am really curious to find out what the Japanese fans thought of the love triangle, or if they even believed that there was one to start with.

Do they agree that it's Cloud and Aerith (my preference)

Or Tifa?? (not my choice)

Or none at all??

Please, someone let me know.

Thank you! ^_^

Most people tell me that there are more Cleris fans over in Japan... just because they can see past a living relationship, and believe love is more powerful than death.

there actually was somewhere in this forum where this was discussed, the person actually interviewed a person from Japan about Cloud and Aerith, and she was saying how love was totally different in Japan then in Western states so that's why so many people in the West need more proof to show Cloud and Aerith, but in Japan they don't need proof to know that Cloud and Aerith are cannon. It is true that in Japan Aerith and Cloud has the most fans. I also noticed once while looking at a Cloud and Tifa forum that there were over 400 Cloud and Tifa fans who joined from the USA (they USA had the most) and there were 8 from Japan lol.

You'll probably find different opinions depending on which person you ask-- I don't think that just because a person's Japanese, they will automatically support Cleris. There's a reason Cloti fanarts by Japanese artists exist too. ;)

As for wondering if the Japanese treat Cloti as fanon and Cleris as canon, again, I don't think it's possible to ever get a clear answer. I've read the interview that was conducted on DF, and while it's certainly encouraging for Cleris, the fact is that that is one person's view on the LTD's position in Japan. You can't expect one person to speak for everyone.

In a nutshell, my answer: Nobody knows. :P

(And I'm pretty sure a thread for this already exists. If I find it, this thread will be merged with it. ^_^)

I don't think that I can answer what the Japanese people like, since every person is different in their tastes. I think the interview Lynn is describing is Alyssandra's interview with Naru (in Destiny Fulfilled) who grew up in Japan and lives in US, Naru says they (Japanese) claim CxA as true couple, but still likes other couples. But in all, I don't really know, I'm not a mind reader anyway.

Aha, the REAL question is: Does NOMURA think Clerith is canon?

*coughofCOURSEhedoes:P*

Well Lutearina he certainly hints at it in a few of his interviews and comments he makes, but I don't think he will ever come out and say it.

Of course he won't say it, he just showed it a ton of times, FFVII, KH, AC and KH2. I think he's been hinting Cleris all along, just so those Clotis could get to their senses. :lol: Just what I noticed during his interviews, he never hinted anything cloti-ish, just the thing in KH2 about Tifa's appearance, you know, the one that clotis claim as fact, which is not! CXA CANON FOREVAH and AMEN! :cleris:

XD

Yep, yep, indeed. I just figured out how I'm going to die...

When I'm about 102 years old, I'll be watching T.V., and suddenly, a REALLY old Japanese guy is on there. I think I must have seen him sonewhere before, so I sit and watch. He then states this... "Why, after all these years, I wonder if people are still interested in Cloud's love life." Cloud...That stirred a memory there... "Well! I was hoping that it was quite obvious, but since I'm most likely going to die soon anyway, the CloTis won't be able to invade my residence." CloTi! An old war memory stirs within.... "Cloud loves Aerith Gainsborough. He always has and always will." I then remember everything, jump up screaming, scaring the crap out of my children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren, and die of a heart attack.


:hyper: Wheeee! Yes, yes, Clerithism! xD :cleris:

LOL.

I'd probably do the same thing. My family...or if I ever have one at that time would see me die with a big smile printed on my face, and they're probably going to go like, "???" to each other while I make my stairway to Heaven (which also has a different meaning).


As for your question, well...being a Clerith, even for Japanese websites, I only go to Clerith sites so I can't really say much but there are people in Japan who think Clerith are the canon couple in FF7. Of course, there are people who supports both Clerith and Cloti, and people who are Cloti.

I've read a couple of Japanese Clerith's sites reviews of Advent Children and even their play diary of FF7 (some even had KH) and it's really funny and cool how they find almost everything as a hint of Clerith. Well, most of it is almost just their fantasies and stuff, but it really is interesting. I've also read a lot of their fanfictions, and though there were a couple of the Aerith ressurection/after her death fics, most of it was set before she dies, so it shows how they think that instead of grieving over what is done or happened, they think that the present is important...or something. Well, I don't really know. But it really is interesting because though the theme may be the same, different Clerith's write and view their fics differently. But I believe that's the same every other Cleriths in the world.


The theme of how loved is viewed is different from the Western which is why there is a difference. Where as a Japanese Cleriths sees a hint of Clerith being the canon couple, they are already satisfied...but when a Western people (both Cleriths and Clotis) see the same hint, they'll want more hints because they'll think that one hint won't be enough. Of course, I'm not saying that all Japanese Cleriths would be satisfied with one small hint (I'm sure they'll want more like us), but because of how they view love differently, it's just the matter of how they accept it is different.

:whistle:

Hehehe, thanks Rui.

You have such very good points there! I think the Japanese DO have a different view of love. They don't need a heapload of crap and proof to see who is the true couple of Final Fantasy VII... I suppose they just know. xD I suppose that I, as an American, am information hungry, and need more and more hints to keep the fuel burning. xD Ah well. I agree with you completely and absolutely. :gift: Great analysis!

Huuummmmm...

I suppose you are all aware that japanese are pervs? Like, really badass pervs? The pervs that draw the best hentai with straight/yaoi/yuri/animalistic lubings? ...Bunny ears on the 'lubings'.



Ok, in Japan, girls have the smallest boobs ever. It's true. All the girls with a nice chest are on tv or porn magazines or both. Manga and anime lie, my friends. Girls with big boobs are goddesses, and the ones that look nice enough are Mary Sues. So yeah, Tifa's a Goddess of Pr0n Addicts and Aeris is our beloved Mary Sue. C'mon, who doesn't like Mary Sues? Rikku doesn't, but she's a cloti, so whatever.

stfu I love Tifa x3

Having this in mind, now we imagine a teenager japanese boy, playing FF7. A bunch of pixels appears, and the white pixels sure are big! And that black pixel area sure is small~! <3 Well, here's a boy on his way to clotiness and naughty dreams.
But his little sister is into romance, and the pink pixels which have the "MARY SUE" stamp on them are far more appealing than black and white. Here's a future cleris for you.

N00b: BUTT WUT BOU TWUT DSTINI FULFYL SAD?!

It's only the opinion of a japanese who happens to know more cleris fans than clotis. Heck, when I played the game I had no idea some people trully believed cloti was the thing. Poor wittle me. :(

I'm not bashing Destiny Fulfilled, but damn, immitating n00bs sure is fun <3


Now, my humble common sense wants to tell you something.

SJ's humble Common Sense: There are only a few restricted japanese that know the answer. All the others are as wise and enlightned as we are, which means 'follow the clues we gave you! <3' ...better than nothing.

After this major heart throbbing post, I bet someone in Japan is waving his little flag and fan, dancing some traditional dance, wearing a yukata, and singing FF7's victory music. You go, Nomura! <3

SJ, you couldn't have said it better! ^_^ Yes, the Japanese boys are quite the witto pervs.... and when I say perv, I mean PERV! :lmao:

But anyways, I think the Japanese put CXA higher than CXT. I mean, they understand romance a little different from Americans. (Teehee, and a proud American dammit)

My classmate from Japan says so that they think CxA is canon. Although, they prefer some couplings other than CxA, like...*coughsCxTcoughs* :rolleyes: Doujinishi's popular in Japan, but not really made by the people who owns the characters, in other words, they're fan made.


So...CxA is canon while CxT is fanon?! (oh how i wish so!)

CxA forevah AMEN. :cleris:

Then if we follow your logic, everytime we find a Cleris doujinshi, then cleris becomes fanon? ^_^

And one japanese person can't speak for a whole country. We needed a poll so that everyone that played FF7 would vote for their favourite pairing.

I hate it when people generalize. Think of people as individuals, not mass. >__>

I'm just wondering... what makes it more special to what the Japanese think?? Why not London? Why not Africa? I mean, don't mind me -- I have love for the Japanese, even part of my family is -- but to respect their opinions more than any others seems a bit... I derno, awkward? Japan may be the home of Final Fantasy, and they may have more symbolism in little things (I like their "philosophy" ^o^), but there are plenty of other wise, beautiful views out there that carry deep meaning and beauty too. ^_^ Probably the most true thing to remember is that what you think is the way to follow. (Not to be offensive though, I just wanted to open my honest opinion on that. I just know you're interested on what the country thinks overall, Anabella3. ^_~)

SJ:

Hrmms...I'm not sure that's what Cynel meant. I think she just meant that doujinshis, in general, don't have any say in which couple is canon...since they aren't official work provided by SE.

I guess there's really no way to answer this question without 'some' generalizing. Besides, I don't think anyone's claiming that every Japanese is a Cleris. They're just mentioning that the Japanese they know believe CXA is canon/have claimed, that in general, Japanese people think CXA is canon even if Cloti fans exist. Although we can't actually count the fans to see if this is true or not, I think it's just interesting to note that there are Japanese saying this. ^_^

TS:

Personally, I do find myself having some interest in what the Japanese think. Since we're talking about a video game that was created by them, the theme/storyline/etc. would most likely contain quite a bit of Japanese influence.

I guess there's a part of me that acknowledges my understanding of the game might be a little different or perhaps not as accurate due to cultural differences/barriers. I wouldn't say that it means I have "more respect" for the Japanese...just that, well, they would have a better understanding of their own culture.

Oh, I understand that totally, HD. ^_^ But there are some people lately ~ in general ~ that have disregarded other people's opinions just to focus on what the Japanese thought. I see how it would be interesting to know since Japan is the Final Fantasy influence with their fascinating traditional specialties, but there are various ways to see/interpret little things in your own ways. I think that's what really counts. ^o^ Besides, Nomura said that most crazy controversies were basically to be interpretated by the POV of the individual (but I doubt that this statement will help anything :P). I mean, the game isn't only made for the Japanese (if you want the best understanding of the game's true "concept"), so it's no requirement for any players worldwide to understand the Japanese culture to get the right idea. We can all see "canon" things differently, being as individuals raised differently, so practically ~ it's all a mess. D: Hmm. Wait... now I'm making no sense now. O.o Umm. well. You know what? You're actually right, HD. Haha, no surprise. You just seem to bring out the parts I overlook greatly. XD After all, it IS a Japanese game that is also available to players internationally just to enjoy it in any way possible. ^o^ So, nevermind on my part. Sorry for wasting your time. ^^; ~brainwashes you~

(.......)
Um... this never happened... o.O

JOO wasted my time!1 :mad:

:glomps TS:
I understand what you're saying, and you're right, Nomura did say that people may interpret the game however they want to. I completely respect that.

It's certainly not just what the Japanese think, and really I hope everyone understands that. I'd have to say that I do go with my own interpretation of the game, but I admit that that interpretation has slightly changed several times since having factered in the little things I learned about their culture. For example, before I'd come to understand the meaning behind the Carp, I use to wonder: "geez, what the heck was the point of putting that big old fish there?! >.> " :giggle:

In a sense, you're right. The game wasn't only made for the Japanese...and since Nomura did say we may interpret it however we want to, I don't think it's a requirement, then, for the rest of the world to understand Japanese culture.

Sometimes though, as difficult as it might be, I try to put myself in SE's shoes and guess at why Nomura, Sakaguchi, etc. might have portrayed things the way they did. Of course, that's when I start to wonder about the Japanese culture/their perspectives on life in general/etc...

Was there a meaning behind the Carp? I thought it was just some sort of barrier to prevent people from entering that...sanctuary(?)...

Anyways, I don't think that a person should share the same nationality or have knowledge on the story's author culture, in order to understand it. For example, I don't think that when some japanese reads "Romeo and Juliet", and reaches the part where Romeo commits suicide, (the japanese person) will think "Ah! I see, so Romeo was a kamikaze". Understanding goes beyond culture, unless the story is about culture.

Apparently, in the Japanese culture, the Carp symbolizes 'courage' and is supposed to bring 'good fortune'. I'd always wondered why SE'd placed a big old fish in the middle of nowhere. A boulder or a wall could have served as a better barrier. I sort of doubt the carp was just there for that purpose.

Well, of course, a person doesn't have to understand the culture in order to know, for example, that Aerith gets killed by Sephiroth. However, as in the case above, it's pretty apparent there are hidden meanings that can be better understood if one were Japanese, or if one were to understand the Japanese culture to a deeper extent. I guess the Romeo and Juliet example is a bit... irrelevant at the moment.

Maybe it has to do something along with Cait Sith's predictions, maybe it just shows that at first, Aerith wasn't supposed to die.

I'm in blank at the moment: Can you list me some of the stuff (besides the Carp one), that can be better understood by having some knowledge on japanese culture?

Romanticism was born in (Western) Europe. Romanticism justifies suicide in name of love. If you are not familiarized with romanticism, you might find Romeo's suicide rather stupid, offensive or even heretic (if you are religious).

...it's rather difficult to compare the two. From what I read of Romeo and Juliet, I can't recall whether the work contained huge amounts of hidden meanings/western symbolism or not. From my memory alone, I don't seem to recall that it did...

What you said up there about Romanticism supports what I was saying about the game anyhow: "my understanding of the game might be a little different or perhaps not as accurate due to cultural differences/barriers."

Although, in Western cultures, "I want to meet you" may not be a very powerful soul-searching line...the Japanese may see it a bit differently:

Aerith is trying to make a deeper relationship between her and Cloud. She is trying to make a knot that will bind them together, closer.. it's a deep feeling .. picture her soul coming out of her body, knocking on his body. Her soul asks if his soul will come out and hold hands with her. That's how deep "I want to meet you" means.

There are other things that are symbolic in the Japanese culture, such as: flowers, ribbons, umbrellas (one of Aerith's weapon), etc.
Not only that, but it's very apparent that in FFVII, there's a great deal of influence from the Japanese culture: fortune telling, flower selling, their views on death/life, etc.

There are tons of other things I can't recall at the moment. If you're interested, you can look through some of them on DF, through this link: DF Link

I grew up in the US, and although my ancestors are Chinese/Mongolian, not Japanese, I recall that a lot of the things that were listed through that DF link even applies to my own culture :P

I don't think one has to be Japanese in order to understand the love story in FFVII. It never came across to me that "I want to meet you" meant that Aeris wanted to have a sexual relationship with Cloud or be his girlfriend. I just thought it meant that she wanted to get to know the real Cloud, and not the Zack in Cloud.

And really, the Japanese fandom is just like us. :lmao: I've seen plenty of couples in anime that are just like Cleris/Cloti. The answer lies with SE, not the Japanese people. We know as much as them regarding the love triangle. Why should I take their word as more special than a Westerner's view on FF7? FF7 is really westernized, actually.

Again...it's not that a Japanese view is "more special" or "more worthy of respect".
FFVII may have some western influence...but it still contains quite a bit of Japanese views and symbolisms that, due to cultural differences, we may not understand to the same extent.

Where did you get that quote, HD?

I do agree with that, such as the bowing some of the characters do in the game, which is done in Japan and not in western cultures. But those are little things. None of it is really all that important to grasping the story of FFVII. It's universal.

FF_G:

:giggle:
Naturally, I stole it from Aly and the FFVII Dismantled Thread:

Anastar:

It's nothing official, of course...but I was just giving Clerith-son an example of how a Japanese may view this line VS how a Westerner may view it.

Love Blossom:

Would you say that the line we've discussed above (which, I feel is a pretty important line from FFVII) is something that's understood by all in the same manner then? Would it be considered a "universal" understanding?

What about Tifa bowing her head at the end of FFVII? People have interpreted it in all sorts of manners. Would you consider that "little thing" as something that's unimportant to fully grasping the storyline?

Maybe not a kamikaze. There is a term for lover's suicides in Japan though, 'joshi', from what I've read.

LB, it's true that you don't need to hold a great understanding of Japanese culture to 'get' the story of FFVII. However, it's also true that cultural influences are bound to creep into it, whether intentional or not, because of the creator's social background. For example, American school culture is different to how it is in the UK. Over here there aren't many (if any) schools that have prom or cheerleaders or pep rallies or whatever, there isn't a great deal of importance placed on school sports teams, and so on. So say you have two teen books where the main characters are going to school. One is written by an American, one by a English author. They're going to be different. It doesn't mean that an American reading the English book isn't going to understand it, it just means that there are going to be a few cultural references, figures of speech, slang words, e.t.c that the reader doesn't understand or even notice, which a Brit reading the same story would.

You don't need to know everything about Japanese culture to be able to grasp the story. But if you're analysing the story, it is important to be aware of the context it's written in, and the social background of the author, in order to gain a deeper understanding of it.

:gift:

Thanks for giving examples and making things more clear, MB. It's what I've been trying to say...but er...MAIGAWD, I PHAILED with my explanations...
>.<

Besides the unanswered stuff, I never felt confused with anything. I understood what Aerith meant by saying that, having no knowledge in japanese culture, or having any roots in it. I understood Tifa bowing her head, and etc... Not that they're having references such as Kaguya-hime, or stuff like that.

I'm not saying that you're confused with anything, Clerith-son.
My point is that others have understood those same things differently. Their interpretations aren't the same as yours. There's no "universal understanding" to these kinds of things because of cultural/society differences.

The Japanese would probably have the same general understanding of the storyline as you, but may have interpreted certain things differently. For example, in some cultures such as mine, we don't look directly at another person/into their eyes (even when they're speaking) unless it's someone we're very comfortable with or someone we share an intimate relationship with. However, I've been taught here in American society that I should look directly at people, even strangers, when they're talking. If not, it'd be considered rude 'cos it means I'm not "paying attention" to them. Using KH as an example, I find Cloud's and Aerith's behaviors during the ending credits to be something extremely romantic. An American might find it as something more casual, not necessarily romantic.

As MB pointed out with her example, it doesn't mean you won't understand the story...just that there will be Japanese symbolisms, cultural references, figures of speech, etc, that a Japanese will understand or notice that you won't. Think of the Carp example. I would think that this would allow them to have a deeper understanding of the game as a whole.

This is just how I personally feel about it. If you feel you have the same understanding as a Japanese or feel you have understood it to the same extent, all the more power to you then, of course. ^_^

I think that due to how we raised, Japanese may thought Cleris was canon but may like other pairings, as with other fandoms.

Interpretion is what make us so different, since I was a pureblooded Chinese borned and raised in Australia, my views maybe different from my fellow Aussies who are African, New Zealander, European, etc, in their upbringing. Our parents/guardians have some influence over us, follow by friends and ads and media stuff, which shaped our individual mind.

I understand that a Cloti can see their fandom in a game, as we do with ours. I find it more hard to see anything Cloti in a romantic sense and I understand the Cleris relationship since I can understand the relationship and affection. (I've seen a Jackie Chan movie where an Qin Dynasty comcubine's (sp?) soul waited many years to see the General she loves, even if he's in the 20th/21st century. Though their reunion remind me of the Macalania Lake Scene with all that floating...)

I still don't think that we have to be japanese in order to undesrtand stuff, and that if we did, that means that we think as japanese people. Take AC for example, Fenrir was the name of Cloud's bike, yet Fenrir has nothing to do with japanese culture, but Nordic; and I'm pretty much sure that most japanese people didn't knew that. Or the latin that it is used in the game, or English names.... See my point?

Even so, maybe SE is a mythology fanatic? Gives something interesting to think about, though those who didn't know will probably be confuse or think it's cool Cloud have a bike. (The bike mini-game comes into mind)

I think it's nice to mix and match up references, like a fruit salad (inside joke between me and Shigore). Just to balance out one thing with another, giving it that multicultural feel I like.

Well, we don't have to be but it's nice to look at things from a different angle once in a while and understand.

I really think tifa and cloud was and good match
really i think...

What does this have to do with the topic? Also, advocacy of Cloud x Tifa is against the Forum Rules, DS. Have a read of them, please. ~ Madame. B

I dunno Clerith-son. I think that maybe they do understand a bit about Fenrir. I've heard it often in Japanese anime/manga/stories. It's really neat to see one culture bring something in from another culture, even if they may not understand it.

Saying that, I'm sure that they must have SOME kind of understanding of these different things if they are indeed going to be using them. They just haven't said why they chose them to be used for that particular item/song.

The fact that they (SE/FFVII development team) knew it, doesn't mean that every japanese knows that stuff.

Well I have to agree with you about the use of Fenrir mythology and other Latin-based or lesser known cultures used in FF, but in the case of Cloud and Aerith I think the different interpretation of the Japanese towards their behaviour is applicable in a broader sense, and not just understood by SE.
With Fenrir mythology (as an example), people would have to look it up to find the deeper meanings (sounds like some pink obsessed fans I know! :lol: ) but for Cloud & Aerith's behaviour towards each other, I think most japanese would understand it and interpret it the way it should be interpretated because it's a social.... thing (forgive my poor vocabulary!), so I do think most Japanese, if not all, might see their gestures to be romantic as opposed to the western audience. Like the eye contact example HD brought up earlier, I presume most eastern audiences would understand that.

Unless you were only referring to the fenrir mythology and in which case this post was unnecessary and I have just made a fool out of myself. :lol:

Not necessarily. Aerith's personalilty isn't of the average japanese girl. While japanese girls are usually portrayed as shy, extremely polite and etc... Aerith was more western like, she was extrovert, playful, etc...

Japanese people (the really traditional ones) might find Aerith's behaviour impolite, rather than romantic. That's why I don't think their relationship should be extremely considered as japanese based, but complex and unique in it's own way.