ok, i dont like Tifa. When someone asks why, i dont know. Theirs just this thing about her that I.... i dont know. Just the sight of her makes me want to scratch her eyes out..... :angry: I dont know why. She's nice in all, but i dont understand why i dislike her so much. I think mostly the reason is because i like Cloud and Aeris so much, and when Cloti fans rave about Cloud and Tifa, it just pissed me off!
Does anyone else feel the same? :mellow:
(hopefully this doesnt get closed.....)

To tell the truth I'm slightly on the dislike side with Tifa. Hear me out here, because I'm not character bashing or anything.

First run through of the game, I thought she was okay, but really, entirely unneeded. Then I found out Cloud's past. That kinda pissed me off. In the end Tifa knew he wasn't her childhood friend and knew his memories were screwed up. Way I saw it, was that maybe in some way she liked it that way, because he looked at her in a positive light that way.

Then it came down to the implications of her actions. She knew something was wrong, but never said anything. If she had, red flags would have went up. They could have discussed it and found out someting was wrong. Then Cloud might not have trusted himself so much and left the black materia with someone else. Sephiroth wouldn't have gotten his hands on it, and ultimatley Aeris wouldn't have had to die.

I guess I could just not get past it in the end. I don't hate her, but in a way, I really don't like her either.

That's just my view on it.

The first time I played the game, I thought she was an interesting character because she seemed like the kind of person you would meet in real life. I like characters who are realistic (I go for not so realistic ones too though :lol: ). But then when I encountered her rabid fans, I started to hate her a bit. They would make her out to be perfect-- physically and emotionally strong. Then the rabid shippers of CloudxTifa didn't exactly make me enjoy her character any more. The more and more I heard it, the more and more I disliked her.

But then I remembered what I initially enjoyed about Tifa. Now I just ignore the people who twist her personality around until they transform her into a Mary Sue. And I remember how Cloud and Tifa are just like brother and sister, their romance being pretty fanon IMO.

I'm sorry for anyone that REALLY LOVES Tifa, but I agree with dl316bh in that I didn't really think she was an essential character. She's definitely nice to have around though. Then again, usually the only necessary characters are the main ones (Cloud, Aerith, Sephiroth, etc.) without which the story would fall apart. Characters like Yuffie or Red XIII weren't needed, but they're still good characters. :D

As long as any criticism of Tifa is backed up with legitimate reasons, then I won't close this topic. I don't want to see any hardcore Tifa bashing, or any criticism of her for frivolous reasons like her clothes, okay?

OK! I can do that! Hopefully everyone else can too! But, i'm sure that wont happen.....hopefully. :huh:

GoddessinPink, I can relate to you. I felt the same way towards Tifa... When I first played FFVII, I liked her a lot, she seemed like such a strong character to me... But when Aerith came in, and I got to know about her more (personallity, past... etc), Aerith basically grew on me. After a while I just started to like Tifa less and less because I noticed how shy and weak emotionally she was. After I saw this whole rivalry between Aerith and Tifa for Cloud's affection I picked Aerith's side..

It only got worse once I saw Tifa's rabid fans. After I watched Advent Children though, my feelings for her shot up! I mean, she really matured in AC.. And I'm glad she did. Now I see Tifa as a sweet woman, looking out for a good friend (Cloud) Rather than an ebil wench that wants to come inbetween Aerith's and Cloud's relationship.

My advice to you is to really watch Tifa in Advent on how she acts, and how she wants Cloud to be happy, rather than take him for herself.

Because if Cloud's happy, then so is she.. I noticed that in her.

I like Tifa, and I also like Cloud and Tifa as friends but not lovers. What I don't like is the clotis bashing. They're a disgrace to Tifa fans.

I don't really care for Tifa either way. Her role in the whole love triangle certainly made things more interesting for me though, I'll have to admit. Her jealousy at times over Cloud and Aerith was...I thought, quite an amusing addition. At first, I sort of disliked her because she seemed incredibly weak, emotionally. However, once I got to the ending and saw how she reacted to Cloud's "I can meet her there" line, and how she supported that idea...I did change my mind a little. Afterall, in the end, she was able to see through to what Cloud desired and "let him go". To me, it was pretty much a self-sacrifice to see the man she cared about happy.

I also find Tifa's role in the game to be quite interesting because, in a way, her part in it helps prove that love does transcend death. If you think about it, Cloud could have easily chosen to get with the girl who obviously loves him and is still physically by his side. Instead, he pretty much chose the girl who was already dead by deciding that he would go meet/find her. To me, the LT already ended there. I honestly don't think SE left anything hanging at the end of the game, certainly not the love triangle. ^_^

All I see of Cloud and Tifa in CoT and AC is that they're caring friends who are close enough to be called family to one another. Overall, I'm pretty much just indifferent towards Tifa.

I'd like to step in as a [huge] fan of Tifa's.

I'm rather confused by your post, goddess_in_pink.

So, you don't like her character design? Because that's what I'm getting from reading your post. I apologize if that's not your intention, but that's the feeling I'm recieving. I honestly don't understand the reason why people don't like her character design--it's actually reasonable enough for fighting and some women can't be helped being born with a larger chest than most. Uh, I'm not sure a hatred of a video game character strong enough to "scratch their eyes out" is quite healthy. o_O

And I don't see how people ranting about Cloud/Tifa should affect the character itself and your opinions of her. You can disagree with CloTi fans, sure, but that really shouldn't affect your opinion of the character herself. If you were to play the game, without anyone else's opinions, what would you think of her? I don't really think saying, "Oh Cloud/Tifa fans saying that they think Cloud/Tifa is cute makes me hate Tifa!!! RAWR!!! >:[" is a very good reason. It's all in perspective and point of view and everyone is entitled to one.

I'm a Cloud x Aeris fan, obviously, and I find Tifa endearing. I like her just as much as Aeris and in some ways more. She has fallacies, she's weak and she gets jealous like normal people do. But she's also strong. She's a fighter, she survives through many tramautic things and she tries to be there for everyone, even if she is sometimes only fooling herself into thinking everything is alright. I know I do that all the time.

I don't think she's emotionally weak. I think she has flaws, but that doesn't make her emotionally weak. Tifa doesn't go into hysterics over the smallest problems or issues. She doesn't breakdown, she keeps moving on. When Sephiroth kills her Father, she tries to fight back and take revenge, not just sit there and mope. Of course, she's no match for Sephiroth, but her spirit in her actions is, in my opinion, admirable. I'd be scared to face such a man, but she does it almost immediately. She risks life and limb for what she believes in. If Tifa's an emotionally weak woman, then I wonder what other characters such as Hachi from the manga Nana are or even many, many women in real life.

By no means is Tifa perfect, but by no means, at least in my opinion, is she a weak or terrible character.

Edit:

I think Tifa's role goes beyond the love triangle, however, just as Aeris' and [obviously] Cloud's role does. The story of Final Fantasy VII, in my opinion, is not the story of a love triangle, but the story of a group of ragtag heroes from all walks of life coming together to save the planet (in what is now sounding cheesily like Captain Planet). I think all the characters had vital roles in the story as, in my opinion, FFVII is not the story of one character and his quest to defeat Sephiroth, but the story of many people coming together with one common goal. This is not the story of just one hero, but of many. While not all the characters played essential roles in say, Cloud's story, they are the stars of their own story.

Final Fantasy VII, I've noticed, spends a great deal of time dealing with the backstory of the characters. Even the "optional" characters have heavily developed pasts, both having their own quests and Vincent being directly tied with the past of the overall game world. Tifa is no exception, especially considering her past is tied so deeply with Cloud's, the main character. Tifa's gone through a lot of things in her past and, at least in my opinion, it takes a very, very strong will to get through such things.

While, yes, in the main plot, I do think that, in the end Tifa is "less important" to the Cloud vs. Sephiroth plot, I think the game isn't just about Cloud and his vendetta against Sephiroth. It's about a group of eco-terrorists named AVALANCHE trying to save the world and each member is equally as important in the fight. :)

HELLO OVERLY LONG POST. APOLOGIES TO EVERYONE OUT THERE WHO ACTUALLY SLOGGED THROUGH THIS RAMBLING MESS~ XD;

How can I say this...?

Tifa is alright. But not to a level of respecting her. I just see her in the game, take it all in, and not think too much on it.

I also have that viewpoint to Aerith as well. Back when I first started, I never really cared who Cloud ends up either.

Then Aerith died. And I realized that she's a pretty cool character. I find it sad that she never gets to say anything to Cloud after Sephiroth attacks her.

Cloud is slowly falling apart as the game continued... and I was sad to find out that Tifa with held such important information from him. Fans will counter that she was trying to protect him, or that FF7 will be much shorter without that plot point. But it boils down to one thing... she is Cloud's friend, regardless of the past, in the present time they are now. And friends trust each other no matter what. Maybe I'm just being a self-righteous bitch, but I've always believed that.

And so my respect for Tifa lowered. She redeemed herself in the end of the Lifestream thing to help Cloud regain himself, but I find myself not rooting for her to end up with him after all that is said and done.

Finally, the ending gave away. Cloud would rather think of a dead girl while literally hanging in danger than think about Tifa. And that says a lot.

And that convinced me that they're a couple.

AC didn't change my views on that either.

I quite disagree with people saying Tifa was the best thing in FF since sliced bread. Maybe because I never thought FF7 was the best FF. Or maybe because I've seen other female martial artists in gaming who wasn't such a huge wuss.

Anyways, I don't hate her but I never notice her either. I dislike meek passive characters who relies on their men as if they were the reason of their existence. Please.

MT:

I wasn't saying Tifa's only role involved the love triangle, MT. Knowing that you're such a huge Tifa fan, I hope I haven't offended you by saying what I said. Basically, I was just pointing out that her part in the LT really interested me.

...'n no, FFVII is not the story of a love triangle, but it is still *a* story of a love, one that could never be. While some people don't believe FFVII is about love, I strongly believe it's *also* about love, one that was portrayed in a very subtle way.

Well, I honestly think what you're saying here applies to many video games in general. However, it doesn't stop any game from having the main hero, the main heroine, and the main villain. Again, I wasn't trying to belittle Tifa's role in the game by mentioning that her part in the LT interested me. I apologize to the Tifa fans if it came off that way.

All the characters, in one way or another, has gone through "a lot" in their past. However, Tifa just comes off to me as being more emotionally timid and fragile, especially in comparison to Aerith who has *also* gone through much. I've always seen Tifa as being physically stronger than the flowergirl, but lacking the emotional strength that Aerith has. This, in no way, makes either girl perfect or flawless...but throughout the game, Tifa does come off to me many times as a bit clingy, and needy in emotional support. Guess it bothered me a bit too when she abandoned the quest to save the planet just for Cloud. The highwind scene told me that her reasoning to fight was really...once again...for Cloud. Maybe it's just me, but these things really gave me the impression that she's pretty much all about Cloud.

As I've mentioned though, the fact that she understood Cloud at the end of it all, and supported his idea of meeting Aerith made me realize that despite coming off as fragile many times in the game, she was strong enough in the end to let Cloud go.

Actually, there are many things FFVII is about. I would think it's also about the Cetra and their relationship with the planet and to Sephiroth, etc. FFVII's commercial for NA pretty much covers what the game is about in general: war, friendship, love, and hatred.

I'm not trying to bash Tifa at all. She just comes off to me that way, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with a person who's like that...however, it doesn't mean you have to like or hate her. Like Anti-R...I don't really are for Tifa either way.

i'm sorry mt but when i hear someone call tifa a ''strong woman'' i can't help but think

''i'm sorry everyone, at a time like this'' and then she just sits at cloud's legs and whines at him.

and then there's the part in the shinra building when she gets afraid of the DARK(if you sneak in) and has barret and cloud go ahead of her. doesnt exatctly scream tehbrave'nstrong! (scuse my lack of caps, the shift key on this keyboard is CRAP, and i can barely get it to type c's as well).

''if only cloud were here, he'd stand in that cocky little way of his and tell us it's going to be alright''

''where are you cloud? i need you!''
and so on and so forth. there are entirely too many instances of her needing support and comfort for me to consider her abnormally strong and independant.

her charging up to sephiroth wasn't that amazing when you consider that all the other characters did something like that also. cloud charged up to him, aeris knew she was in danger from him(she could likely sense him as well as cloud could), and still went to do her thing. i just can't find myself impressed when i compare her to the other characters. sure, she's amazing compared to real people, but the game isn't REAL now is it?

i was much more impressed with her in ac. she was much more independant, and didn't seem to need cloud for everything. in fact, she was trying to HELP him.

physically strong? 'scuse me while i examine her stats. oh wait, she's no stronger than the guys. yuffie's stronger! is it just because she's a physial fighter who just happens to be female she seems TEH STRONGZORS? so's yuffie. yuffie's stronger.
again, this aspect of her was more impressive in ac, but she still got her butt handed to her by loz.

her outfit decent for fighting in? have you ever tried to do ANYTHING in a mini skirt? much less a leather one, that'd ride up like nothing else. i mean, if she wants to show her panties all day then yeah that skirt'd be great, it'd be balled up around her waist within a few kicks and then her legs would be NICE and free(the suspenders would be a big help in that as well, they'd be HAPPY to pull that skirt right up!). however, i would suggest a bra if you're gonna be doing physical stuff with those boobs. and mebee some kind of protective clothing would've been a good idea like...oh say, cover up your stomach? especially for hand to hand battles where you're right up next to your enemy.

oops, this post has become way too long. i do apologize, guess i had more ranting to do than i expected. i actually do like tifa alot, but i don't like her because she's ''teh strong independant woman'', but because she's herself. she's sweet, has very good intentions, but doesn't always suceed at them. she does the best she can do, which is all one can ever ask of a person. she just doesn't live up to the other characters, or to the perfect image her rabid fans like to cast her in.

Not sure why, Sefie...but this part of your rant got me laughing out loud...
Sefie is the queen of rants, I say... :giggle:
HOE NOEZ, I'm spamming!

*runs before the Mods and Admins can ban her*

I actually like Tifa, I think she's a great character. I am more of an Aerith fan, but I wouldn't bash Tifa.

You said most of what I wanted to say, Sefie. :)

Hmm...Tifa is an okay character, on some standards. My level of tolerance for her is somewhere in between. I don't hate her or dislike her but its somewhere along the line. I just think some of her fans overly abuse her character and make her into something she isn't. (No offense to other Tifa fans but I did say some...)
Like Sefie stated, overly stated that Tifa is a strong character wouldn't really make sense. Each character in FFVII was strong in their own way. I also dislike how people like to relate to Tifa because of her traits. Being the underdog of a love triangle, she's soo strong, shy.....etc, etc. Would this mean that the other characters were less in humane than Tifa? I don't really see the point when Cloud, Aerith, Barrett, and the others have traits that people can relate to. Identiy Crisis, fighting in what you believe in, or believing in that someone. These are things people can relate to also. Looking at myself, I can mostly identify myself with Cloud. Wanting to fit in, have friends, or even showing off. I find it quite tedious when people say how much they're alike to Tifa and she's more related to realism. This isn't exactly true when all the characters have something in common that a person can relate to.

Man, Sephie you say if so wonderfully!! :D :D Sorry to any Tifa fans, but i like how you think Sephie!

The rabid fans caused me to dislike her quite a bit x_X' I like her better in AC than I did the game though.

I'm actually quite the Tifa fangirl. She's one of my all-time favorite FF characters, and definitely ranks in the top three for my favorites in the FF7 world. Aerith only beats her out for my overall favor by a tiny bit, just as Cloud beats out Aerith by only a smidge for my top favorite in FF7. I just adore her character, so I'd like to rant in her favor. ^_^

I'll start out with a fact that is very, very, very commonly overlooked mainly due to pairing bias and rabid fans gone haywire: Tifa is not Final Fantasy VII's heroine. That has been and always will be Aerith, and I have Nomura to back me up on that one. ;) But you know, unlike most of her fans, it's not the ultimate-mega-main-heroine image that appeals to me in a character like Tifa. All eyes are not on her, and she's going to suck it up and deal with it. I really love that quality in her--she is a very lonely person who would love to be loved, but seems to have the feeling that somebody else deserves love more than she does. That type of outlook on receiving attention to her own emotions, and ultimately that outlook on her own happiness, has given Tifa the personality of a caretaker for less fortunate people than she. However, she doesn't always understand what's wrong with the people she wants to take care of, and why they aren't happy when she has sacrificed so much for them. Examine the scene where she is attempting to help Cloud regain consciousness in the Mideel Hospital. The following quote speaks a lot about her solitude in situations where she lacks the power to lend her aid:

Tifa
"Why......? What do you want me to do?"
"Please, Cloud...... Talk to me......"
"Tell me you see me, that you can hear me...... Tell me,
please......"

(Cloud bobs his head.)

Tifa
"I came this far believing in the memories we have together..."
"This isn't happening......! This is too cruel......"

Tifa also has a lot of issues trying to understand who needs her help and who doesn't. At the beginning of FFVII, she seems to be under the impression that Cloud is a very strong character, both emotionally and physically, who is capable of being her "hero" and "saving" her and all that jazz. But he has a whole heap of problems that he hid from her and everyone else with his Zack-based personality, simply by warping the image of what his and Zack's lives truly were, picking out a few traits here and there, and slapping them together into one messed-up guy who became a slave to his memories. Naturally, being one of the last living people Cloud knew during his childhood, Tifa happened to get caught into the mix when Cloud bent the truth of what his life was like when they were acquainted. It's no big shock that she was seriously confused when he ran into her on the street and started gushing, in a very out-of-character manner for Cloud, but in a way that would be perfectly average for Zack, about their childhood friendship. Abnormal things like that happening were obviously very strange and frightening for Tifa, and I think being around Cloud and his problems shook her pretty violently. She didn't know what to do with him--on one hand, he was this cocky, cool guy who knew exactly what to do in every situation and was always there for her when she needed him. On the other hand, he was an awkward person who couldn't follow the truth without muddling it with a string of fabrications, like a child without a mother. So the way I see it is that Tifa couldn't figure out which Cloud was which--the who was supposed to take care of her, or the one she was supposed to take care of.

But a lot of that gets cleared up when Aerith enters the picture. She knew and loved Zack once, and seeing Cloud's similarities to him and getting acquainted with Cloud himself lets her separate what parts of him are Cloud and what parts of him are someone else. It's not until she's already passed on that I think she gets it totally figured out (MOTP shows that she got the whole story on Cloud's real past from Zack in the Lifestream), but she was the first person to understand the fine line between the truth and the lie of Cloud's life, and made the first crucial steps to helping him clear it up himself. I think it must have been hard on Tifa to see that even with her knowledge of Cloud's past, she was still ensnared in the mix of his and Zack's memories, while another girl who he was, and I quote Cait Sith, "perfect for", happened to waltz in and figure him out at the drop of a hat. It must have hurt to realize that she lacked a certain something Aerith had that prevented her from getting inside Cloud's head first, and it wouldn't be hard for someone like her to notice Cloud's more-than-friendly affections for Aerith all along. But you know what she did? She sucked it up and dealt with it. More bonus points to her. :yes:

However, it's no secret that holding in what you're thinking can be damaging. Going back to my opinion that Tifa is the type who sees other, less fortunate people as more deserving of happiness than she, I think that after sensing how happy Aerith made Cloud, and how much she hurt him in the past, she temporarily forfeited the alleged love triangle between the three of them. I don't think she felt she could help Cloud anymore, since Aerith had already stepped in and pulled him out of a huge slump, but she didn't realize that our lovely flower girl's work wasn't done. She had only just begun to separate Zack!Cloud from Cloud!Cloud. That didn't mean everything was fine and Cloud's problems were over--he needed someone who experienced the truth of his past first-hand to help him get it all straight. But, again, Tifa didn't understand that he still needed help. She thought Aerith had completely cured him, in a sense, of his personal problems by providing him with some up-front affection and good ol' TLC. She didn't see that he still had weaknesses until his life took another shocking turn headed straight for hell. Aerith died, and that pretty much put Cloud right back in a hole. He was in worse condition than ever, that much is obvious, which also took Tifa down the same destructive path. And just when it looked like they were both pretty screwed, Aerith returned into the picture in the Lifestream Event, pulled them out of their funk, and used Zack and Tifa's memories of Cloud's true past to reassemble it in his mind. This also helped Tifa quite a lot. She was also in the process of remembering what really happened, and with Aerith's help in the Lifestream, she and Cloud finally got what happened straight.

Not only did the events in the Lifestream help Cloud understand his memories, I think they also strengthened Tifa as a character. I think this was the first step to that motherly feeling she describes in COT. She finally discovered a true sense of responsibility for Cloud, and really found out how fragile he was in contrast to the all-powerful hero image she had built up. No, he wasn't a First-Class SOLDIER, he wasn't Zack, and he probably wasn't the love of her life. He was Cloud. He had his own feelings, his own personality, and his own life. And it was her obligation as a friend to support that version of him and convince him that it wasn't necessarily a weakness to embody it. Through such revelations, I think she matured into a very good support system for him, and working in conjunction with the rest of AVALANCHE, it all worked out just fine. ^_^

I apologize for incoherency, but this is being posted at roughly 1 AM and I need sleep. >_o

It's understandable, as everyone has different points of views on each character. I'm not too worried about it. Just think of it as me expressing my opinions.

While I do think, there are elements of a love story to FFVII, I do not think it is a love story. Final Fantasy VIII is a love story in my opinion, but FFVII is not. While I do agree that there are elements of a love story, I cannot say that I agree with the evaluation that FFVII is a love story.

Although it does apply to many video games, it is much more heavily delved into in Final Fantasy VII than many other games, including the later Final Fantasy games. Final Fantasy VIII, they share a common past, making it exactly, or almost exactly, the same as Squall, the main character's. Even then, the oprhanage days, in my opinion, are not delved into as much as the past of the Final Fantasy VII characters are, even as they have completely seperate paths in life. Final Fantasy X, while we learn of their pasts, I feel that we never quite get an understanding like we do in FFVII. Maybe I just found the reasoning more shallow, I'm not entirely sure. For example, comparing Rikku and Yuffie's pasts (this is off the top of my head, so I apologize if I accidentally leave some things out, it is certainly not my intention, I love both these characters so I mean no offense in this comparison).

Rikku is the daughter of the Al Bhed leader, Cid. Her mother is Yuna's aunt (although I don't believe we ever learn quite what happened to her). She cares deeply for her family and her people and does not like seeing people suffer, thus the whole "saving summoners" thing. She scared of thunder because Brother accidentally electrocuted her while trying to scare away a fiend. Yippee.

Yuffie, on the other hand, is the daughter of Godo, leader of Wutai. Wutai is a land fallen into disgrace from its former power, after a war with ShinRa. It is now a land of tourism. Wishing to regain the honor of her land due to her nationalism, Yuffie sets out to steal materia, which is what she believes to be the key to saving her lands. She does not get along with her father because she believes he let the land fall into its current shame, although she does still care for him.

I find Yuffie's past and motivation much more clear, especially for an optional character, but that might just be me.

Paraphrased so I don't kill the pages. ;D

I never stated that the characters haven't gone through a lot nor that Tifa was the only one who suffered, but I do think the fact that she has made it through everything makes her, yes, a strong woman in an emotional sense. I don't think that it's really fair to compare Aeris and Tifa. They're both very different people, who grew up in very different circumstances and environments. It's like comparing apples and oranges, they're both fruits, but are they the same? And who's to say which is the better? Sure, you may have a preference, but they're so very different that you can't really compare to begin with.

I think all of the characters have had their share of pain, but that does not mean that Tifa's is any less than theirs or her reaction, just because it is negative or because she feels despair/a need for security, means nothing. If I lost most everything I loved in a fire, I'd be desperate and bawling my eyes out and clinging to whatever shred of my happy past I could find, even if it is a boy who I didn't have very much contact with from the past. While once could say that Tifa committed the latter, I do not see her desperate, I see her determined. Most people would run in the face of danger, but Tifa faced Sephiroth head-on--losing, yes, but I don't think you can expect that much from her. :/

And I'd like to bring up a cliched quote, before I start typing/rambling more:

Choose whatever variation of that you wish, but it's true, at least to an extent. People will do some crazy things for love and I think it displays the extent that Tifa would go for the one(s) she love. I think "abandoning" is a really harsh word for her actions, connotating that she is "giving up the fight forever" and that she is "carelessly leaving it aside in an irresponsible manner". Sometimes priorities get mixed up, especially when it touches upon deeply held feelings and people might not do what seems most important to outsiders (the saving of the world), but will do what their heart compels them to do (be with their loved ones). If Aeris [was still alive] and if she was to say that she wished to take care of Cloud, because she loved him and didn't want to see him in such a state, what would your opinion on it be? Would you say that she was "abandoning" the fight?

And I don't think she was really "all about Cloud," in FFVII and especially not in Advent Children. Tifa really did believe in the fight for the planet, having joined AVALANCHE long before she had reunited with Cloud. Yes, I do think that her priorities may have strayed throughout the journey, but I don't think she ever really lost her dedication. After all, it wasn't Cloud who had wanted to save the Planet first.

***

I apologize, Sefie, but I won't be able to reach your post today, but I do want to touch on one thing.

I understand that you're ranting and all, but could you try to consider your choice of words a little more before you rant like this? It's rather offensive and I wish you'd treat my arguement with a little more respect instead of the sarcasm you're displaying. And I guess if believing Tifa's a strong woman makes one a rabid fan, then I'm a rabid fan. Never thought I was one, but eh, guess I am. :]

Also, I think there'd be a more appropriate place for this rant, if you know what I mean. :]

I NEVER said she was the strongest, but one cannot deny that she is strong. Maybe not the strongest, but she is one of the stronger characters, especially by human standards. Also, Yuffie has a weapon, which contributes to her strength stats. And Tifa almost defeated Loz in Advent Children. Even if she didn't win, does that really matter regardless? The woman tried her best to defend Marlene. What happened to "Winning or losing doesn't matter, it's how you play the game"? >_>

Materia Thief:

Just out of curiosity...but what do you see that's so different between a love story and a story containing elements of love?

If you think so, it's fine. I just happen to think FFVII and FFVIII are both stories containing love...the difference being, one was spelled out whereas the other one was portrayed at a more subtle level. I think SE has stated that FFVII is a game that had purposely been created with the intention of making the players think on a deeper level. The word "subtle" pretty much jumps up in my mind.

...and again, the commercial pointed out that FFVII is also a story about love, among many other things. Guess I feel the commercial was pretty accurate in giving us the general idea of what kind of themes we'd find within the game.

I think this is really just opinions. While both characters are important in their own way, they're certainly just secondary characters to me. I find it quite easy to distinguish between the main characters and the secondary ones. However, I was never very keen on deciding which one of the "secondary characters" was most important or which one of the "main characters" was most important. Going back to where we originally started though, Tifa is a character important in her own way. I don't think anyone was saying that she isn't. She's very vital to understanding Cloud's story...but I personally don't think it makes her any more important to the overall game than Barret or Red XIII.

Apples and oranges...okay. :P
True that they did grow up under very different circumstances, in different environments, and are different...but I wasn't exactly comparing their environments, the circumstances in which they'd grown up, nor was I saying that they're the same thing. What I was getting at is how the apple handles her problems vs how the orange handles her problems. While one despairs and clings on to her past, the other one is very hopeful and looks forward to the future. It takes strength to let go of one's past, and throughout most of the game, Tifa just didn't come off to me as very strong or very independent.

I'm not saying Tifa's share of pain was less than anyone else's. It doesn't make a person bad in any way to be negative, to feel despair, or to need security. However, neither does this make that person emotionally strong or independent.

Of course...but I wasn't saying that Tifa doesn't love Cloud. Aerith loves Cloud too...however, she doesn't stop/stall her quest to go save the planet just to be by Cloud's side, does she? Certainly, you're not implying that Tifa loves Cloud more than Aerith does. I think it takes strength to be able to leave the one you love behind to go do something such as fighting for the planet. It doesn't mean Aerith didn't care about or love Cloud enough to stay with him, does it?

Perhaps 'abandoning' is too harsh of a word then... :P

As to your question...well, honestly, that's not something I could ever picture Aerith doing. However, if she ever did such a thing like that...my opinion of her would be lowered, and in the end, I would see Tifa and Aerith in a similar light.
Let's just leave it at that. :P

I thought the Highwind scene made it quite clear that she didn't really have a reason to fight like the others did. Isn't that why she stayed on the airship with Cloud? Maybe I'm wrong. As for what I'd bolded out...I'm not exactly sure she'd joined AVALANCHE in the first place 'cos she was really concerned about the planet. If I can recall correctly, I thought she'd originally joined the group for the purpose of avenging a happy childhood that'd been taken away from her. In CoT/AC, it's what her sin is associated with, I believe.

I know what you guys mean. I was once a Tifa hater because her fans make me crazy. (Just like how I used to be okay with the red socks but their fans made me start to hate 'em) But once I got past their irritating ways, I really got to like her. She is stronge, defeating the oh so common sexist thing in final fantasy. (C'mon, in FFX all three of the girls did little to no damage!) Sure, they way she dressed...left little to the imagination but that is something I got passed with simply respecting her as a character. So I don't blames ya for dislikin' her. Hell, I'm startin' to loose my patients with all those psycho Sephiroth worshippers. So shplee. Feel free to dislike her!

I really like Tifa, but not as much as Aerith, but Tifa shows she's human and not perfect.

I tend to control my emotions so I won't loose my temper, which is why her rabid fans didn't change my feelings about Tifa. Only just a bit miffed at their vision of their perfect Tifa. <_< I can just imagine Tifa's reaction to her fans' behaviour.

When I first play FF7 (back at the ol' renting games just to play them days), Tifa looks rather normal but unique, but I grew to like her character more at my replay (this time, with Tifa in my party for her input at situations).

I admit there are times when I go 'WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL?!' with her, but I still like Tifa. We all can't predict the future, unless she practice tarot cards as a hobby. Then again, I'm just loyal to my own friends but too nice to tell my problems until too late. (*coughpinkvomitcough*)

As for the TLD, I think it's interesting for her to be there but it's JUST a part of the game, not the MAIN focus. Just something for us to think about other then the ol' saving the world thing.


Will add more, but sugar made my mind wander off...Ooh, new mail!

I have mixed feelings about Tifa, but right now more of my dislike for Tifa is starting to come out. Though I have respect for her good points, she has a few flaws I can't really respect her for. I also gotta admit, MT, ya know I love you, but for some reason whenever a person defends every one of Tifa's actions it gets on my nerves! :P I think it's because I can like her more if the flaws aren't being defended, and just let to be flaws. I can forgive her being flawed. But when the flaws sound like they are being told as positive things, that's when Tifa gets on my nerves.

Hades' Daughter, I completely found myself agreeing with you on pretty much everything you said! :huggle: So I'll just add a little bit of my own thoughts because I feel you said it pretty well.

As for if FFVII is a love story, I agree that to me, there was a love story, which in part makes it one. FFVII would have been incomplete without me feeling Cloud's struggle after seeing the one I believe he loved die, and without him having to choose to find Aerith at the end despite having the chance to choose to be with someone else that wouldn't make him as happy. It wasn't the only theme, but it was an important one.

Now MT, I'm not going to rant at you about forgetting so much of Rikku since this isn't the thread for that, but I definitely feel her story was a lot more clear than you made it sound! I think that the reason you might say Yuffie's was more clear is the fact that it was so simple because they could only tell us in the one area, and give us the understanding of her right there, not something that we could gradually learn because she was optional, and couldn't have too much plot devoted to her.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! I completely agree there, and THAT is probably the main reason I don't have as much respect for Tifa as I could. For those who have had to struggle with hard times, it's easy to dispair and dwell on the past, but it takes so much more strength to move on. I've been there, and I can't respect hanging onto bad things in the past, I've done it, and once I moved on, I respected myself much more. When people hang onto their past to the point it's influencing all their decisions now, it's very sad. I can try to help them, but if they want to live for an unhappy past, nothing can stop them except themselves.

I agree again, and I think overall, Tifa isn't emotionally strong, by this I mean she doesn't know how to do things outside of her current emotional state. She's not good at putting away her dispair when she needs to be strong, she depends on others to do that for her. I think that her personality is strong, and that she is strong in making her decisions, but her decisions aren't as good as they might be if she could get better control over how she felt.

In fact, Aerith leaves on her own while Cloud is passed out to pray for Holy instead of staying by his side. She could have chosen to wait and be there to 'be by his side', but she realizes she needs to have the strength to go out and do things. In fact, she is trying to finish everything on her own so Cloud wont have to struggle with it anymore. I think that she chose to do something much better, to think of the big picture first, the planet.

Even without comparing Tifa to Aerith, I find her choice very selfish. I'm not saying Tifa is selfish, but to choose one person over everyone else on the planet is selfish. You might argue that Aerith was the only one that could do what she did, but she could've waited until Cloud had snapped out of it and everyone was with her, or you can argue that there were still others to fight for the planet besides Tifa, but wouldn't it have helped more if she was encouraging the others and trying to take charge of saving the planet? I certainly would have found it more admirable if she had started acting like a leader ready to sacrifice her feelings for the planet.

I would agree there as well.

Now, even though I just was venting against Tifa, I also think that she has good points, and I can definitely admire the fact she does everything for others benefit, especially in Advent Children, it made me happy to see that she wasn't so focused on Cloud motivating or saving her, and was trying to get him to continue the fight and not give in. Even if it's arguable whether she was effective in that, the fact she was trying so hard made me respect her more. I'll never be able to like her as much as Aerith, but that's simply a preference of mine, and others have different ideas of what makes them like or dislike a character. I actually do like Tifa, I just also have things I don't like, and in this case, I'm arguing against her.

MT, you're still one of muh E-lesbian lurves! Rikku too if she reads this and hates me too!

I like Tifa's character mostly, as I mentioned before, because she just seems like such a real person. But I also think she's very selfless, always putting others before herself. I think she loves Cloud very, very deeply. That's pretty clear when Cloud mentions wanting to go meet Aerith in the Promised Land at the end of the game, and Tifa sacrifices her own happiness for Cloud's by acquiescing to his desire to be with Aerith. And in my head, being able to love that dearly adds points to their character score.

I can see what you're saying, and I agree completely. But just a thought... in his mind, didn't Cloud put Aerith before the entire planet as well?

Isn't he saying here that Sephiroth's plan to destroy the planet doesn't matter because Aerith is gone? So, in a small way, isn't that Cloud putting Aerith before the planet? And we all know how the ONLY time Cloud was able to stop himself from being controlled by Sephiroth was when Aerith's life was on the line. Not even the two times he handed the Black Materia over to Sephiroth, threatening the very future of the entire planet, could he stop himself.

I was just wondering if people would put this on par with Tifa temporarily abandoning the mission to be with Cloud.

I find that different, afterall, he may have said that, but he also continued the fight even more after. He took action, and didn't just quit because of it. The two situations are far too different to me to even properly compare actually, so if someone can say something better, do so, because to me if just doesn't seem similar enough. :sweat:

msz aeris strife:

I think it's only natural that someone would mourn deeply for a loved one. No one can fault Cloud for having done so. No one can fault Tifa for having mourned over her father's death. However, Cloud continued fighting for the planet even after Aerith passed away. The Highwind scene clearly showed that he had reasons for fighting. Although her death greatly affected him, he didn't break down or stop pursuing his goals because of it. If I can recall correctly, after the lifestream sequence, he was the one who pushed the companions foward most in chasing Sephiroth down and in saving the planet.

Doesn't this involve a "messed-up puppet" Cloud though? Surely we're not talking about a clear-headed Cloud who simply chose to hand the materia over to Sephiroth, are we? In this sense, I'm not sure I can say the two situations are exactly comparable.

I'm going to step out of this thread since I think I'm angering people with my defense of Tifa, I guess I can't seem to defend Tifa's actions without seeming like I'm making her some kind of "OMGGODDESS", although I have repeatedly said that she HAS flaws and have tried to acknowledge them whenever possible. I apologize for taking so much of your time up, everyone and if you really want to discuss it with me, I guess you could PM me about it. *shrugs*

I'm not going to debate with POV's, so I am just going to make a short rant: I'm growing on Tifa. I restored my admiration for her from a while back -- when I was the FFVII 1997 gamer. ^_^; AC was a great way to see Tifa in shine, and I couldn't help but love how she did what she did. Props for her and for everything!

:tifa: <3

Though, I hate when people overrate her character to a high status FEMALE-OF-THE-WORLD, since Tifa does have her imperfections - as well as Aerith, whom she is always compared with. She's a beautiful character, though sometimes my bit of dislike rises at times, naturally. I hate it. I cannot explain now, so I WILL come back to this thread later - I do like Tifa... especially after AC. ^_^ (thanks for reading my crap, everyone! x3)

No you're not angering us. Don't worry about it.

I can see why you felt you have to defend her (she is your favorite character and all), and why her actions can mean something to you but not much on others. And I applaud you and Luna for sticking up to Tifa like that.

It's all just opinions, right? There's nothing else to it.

And as for Tifa staying by Cloud's side to take care of him and "sacrificing the mission" (I don't think she does... I mean Barret and the others managed to get two Huge Materias without them right?) vs Aerith sacrificing her happiness for the Planet. It's really up for person which one is important.

Tifa seems to me as a very outwardly strong female that just cracks under pressure. She's a survivor and she can adapt and take care of herself, but she's also the one most likely to break down and collapse if it gets too tough.

She doesn't exactly think things though either. She seems to be more of an impulsive gut isntinct person and that has a habbit of backfiring on her.

:( I hope I wasn't what made you decide to step out MT. I completely understand why you came to her defense, and heck, I come to Aerith and other characters I like's defenses. I'm certainly not angry, especially at you! :huggle: Getting angry over that would be silly! Honestly, I think most people have a mixed opinion of her, and I'm one of the people who would defend her if someone was unfairly picking on her. I think that the thread needs to have defense of her too, I think that it's just when you make a long post about it, you gotta expect a long response in the opposite opinion. ^_^

Tifa makes me want to scream angry comments for no apparent reason. she's not a bad character, but her charrie was underdeveloped. it's not only that. the Cloti fans are so stubborn (though i have turned a few). "Tifa and Cloud foreva!" when i hear that i fell like i'm gonna either start laughing uncontrolably or :puke: .
Overall, Tifa is okay, but in the end she needs to leave Cloud and Aeris alone.

My advice:

Let alone Cloti fans. The ones you mention specifically only care about one angle of Tifa: her "one love, her 'hero'" - or simply her role in the LT. The REAL Tifa fans respect her for what she is - EVERYTHING about her - not only her interactions with others, but the in-depth of her being as well as accepting her imperfections. Tifa fans can be either Cloti OR Cleris; what matters is the character itself. If you're a real Tifa fan, you would still enjoy her even if she was shown alone (or, at least apart from Cloud - her "one love" wtf???). Love her regardless of who she ends up with. I love meeting true Tifa fans, no matter which couple they ship - they didn't even care if she didn't interact with Cloud in KH2, not a bit - not even if anything symbolized or indicated a warm relationship between the two, or if they weren't involved with each other AT ALL (though SOME had their hopes up, and I guess their wishes were granted ;P); they just wanted to see her full potential roll into action, as well as seeing our own Tifa kicking plenty of friggin' Heartless ass! ;)

However, a Tifa fan is a Tifa fan. If you - at least - "slightly" love (or just really adore, better said) her ways, her being, her history, her ass-kicking skill, her beauty - any of the such that makes you wanna hug her (however, more than just an aspect of her, I'd think), consider yourself a fan. Being a "true" one depends on how much you love about her, I assume, but if you only like some things about her - I also guess you can still say that you're a fan of hers. If you just love her for some reason that you cannot define yourself, then that's just your instinct (or philosophical: HEART) telling you what your taste is likin'; thus = a fan! Love - or like - her 100% or not. Adoring the character is what it's all about - that's the definition of "fan", is it not (or something near)? :huh: But you must be true to your heart when you call yourself a "fan" of something - don't force your fandomness. ;3 Love naturally, people! XD [/random rant of "fan" talk]

[wait, there's more! *hears sighs/groans*] (BUT - if you only like Tifa's physical appearance, I honestly wouldn't think you're a Tifa fan at all - if that's the ONLY thing you like about her. Love her personality, man, that's who she is! ;3) [/end!?]

I've met some Clotis who weren't exactly Tifa fans, but were only shipping the coupling because they liked Aerith (or Yuffie! :lol:) with someone else. [/random sharing]


For Tifa defenders:

Don't be ashamed for standing up for a character you admire. I appreciate how much you expose your love for such a thing and is willing to contribute and explain WHY you love that, so on and so forth. Instilling the up-sides of what others thought negative is what I like, when people have diverse POV's. Hearing other people's opinions is a good thing. Let the opposed hear you out - there's a close possibility that they WILL consider (unless stubbornness gets the best of them, o'course. -__-) We're only trying to keep - or give an effort in letting people have an open-mind about Tifa's character, not at all trying to beat you out and force you to love her, nawh. Fans love her for many reasons, not because of one thing or another. There's more of Tifa that we have yet to understand - though it varies on fan's tastes of a "good character". Her development in AC definitely showed me much maturity on her part, and I have to say - I'm really growing on loving her (but I have to admit, not as much as I love AERITHOMG!!11 @.@) ^_^ I applaud you guys (MT, to name one) for showing a different side of Tifa that others cannot. ^^; If you still don't like her then, then it's a matter that arguments cannot change - it's your decision/opinion. ^.^


As for me:

I absolutely love the way "she do". *gangstar* I've re-watched AC again, and I see her in glimmers that surely bring out great qualities in a woman, IMHO. ;)

I don't want to sound like a pain or like I'm trying to take charge, but this part of the forum is about showing why Cloud might not go well with Tifa or why Cloud isn't in love with Tifa, while this topic seems to be focused on attacking/debating Tifa as a character. This topic just doesn't seem to fit with all the topics in this thread, because most of them are about showing why Tifa and Cloud might not go well together or things that suggest that Cloud and Tifa aren't a couple and don't have feelings for each other without bashing Tifa and not bashing Cloti, but simply explaining why it wouldn't work without bashing the couple. So, most of the topics are written so as not to offend cloti or Tifa fans because they aren't bashing the character or couple, just stating reasons why cloti wouldn't work. I just think a thread bashing/defending/debating Tifa seems a little out of place on this specific area. I don't want to come across as insulting the topic, it just seemed a little out of place.

I agree with UsagiMamoru, this is more suited in the FFVII section.

*moves*

As for the original post:

While I don't think I've felt such dislike for a character until I wanted to scratch their eyes out :lol: (although Cross from Radiata Stories could use a good kick in the-- *bleep*), I don't think it's strange at all to dislike Tifa.

Or Aerith.

Or Cloud.

Or any character. 'Disliking' a character isn't automatically bashing that character-- it's just that some part of that character, be it the design or the personality, just doesn't click with you. I don't think someone ever has to apologise for disliking a character, but they should know when to draw the line.

Although it WOULD be a shame if the only reason you dislike Tifa is because of her fans. In that sense, I'd echo what everyone else said and ask that you judge Tifa on her own merits. If by the end you still end up disliking her, that's fine too.

Aww, I'm sorry MT. I didn't mean to sound offensive. Honestly, I was mostly just frustrated with the keyboard I was using, so that may be why it sounded a bit hostile. That and I get so frustrated when I hear people call Tifa abnormally strong because I like Tifa for her weaknesses and not for what other people see in her. I've never seen her as this strong, stalwart character, but more for the traits Luna listed.

Lovin' how we're getting a good debate going in here. It's such a breath of fresh air to see that we have great members from both sides of the Tifa spectrum who are willing to provide reasons for how they think. I love seeing this, especially after going to so many forums where it's commonly accepted that all Clerii (<I freaking love that term) hate Tifa and all CloTis hate Aerith. And for those breaking that stereotype, I give you huggles and toaster strudle. :fangirl:

And Trisha and Lynn, I must salute you guys for making some great points about the fandom in general, because fan rabies don't really matter as long as you care. :huggle:

Part 2 of Luna's Tifa rant commences! :lol: I had to comment on this as well, because it's a silly argument from both sides. For example, I'm sure the majority of us have seen "fans" who LUV!!! or HAT!!! Tifa for having big boobs and wearing leather. And for the love of God's green earth, I can't count the number of times I've rolled my eyes at these kinds of comments. I see the outfit as a representation of Tifa herself--and not in the DEBILHOAR!!111 way some people like to perceive it as. Her appearance holds a lot of symbolism, and I thought it was a good way of throwing her flaws out into the open without directly saying it, so that fans who were willing could take it in and think about why such a shy, modest character would wear something so... erm... revealing. :dunno: Personally, I think that Tifa's clothing is meant to show what I like to refer to as her vulnerability complex, as well as her ability to be swayed away from the way she truly is and her own fears of showing weakness. She wouldn't be the type to jump all over a random guy looking for some hot stuff. It would only take a second for even the biggest Tifa haters to look at her personality and realize that. But even though they might see that in the way she acts, a lot of people still criticize her as a character for her wardrobe. I see lots of people saying that it would be impossible to perform martial arts in a leather miniskirt, so Tifa must be either brain-damaged or a closet whore. But I think it represents that she can't help the way things work around her. She wants to keep this strong image, but the world's influence and the unfortunate circumstances in present society pertaining to her life don't really allow that. So metaphorically and literally, Tifa shows a lot of skin. Thinking about it as an abstraction of her personality as opposed to her personal preferences in apparel is much more gratifying to me as a fan of hers. That, or I'm overanalyzing once again. :P

Indeed, Luna is a goddess. :wub:

I absolutely agree with Luna wholeheartedly. After thinking about it, Tifa really does have a symbolization goin' on with her clothing (not the kind of "first look/impression you usually get like: WAT A HORR!!1 DAAMNN). Like, the wardrobe was meant for exposure. But, I have nothing else to rant about since Luna beautifully explained everything already, so I'll just spare the time and boredom of my rantings. XD Thanks, Luna! :huggle:

BUT - like I've mentioned before, don't only like Tifa for her big jumblies and sexay bod. She's more than hotstuff - you need to understand her character and her history rather than just basing her being on her wardrobe/body structure. It's ridiculous to judge automatically like that, in my honest opinion. :ermm: Criticizing the "wardrobe" department seperately is another thing, but - I'd say to keep those points AWAY from her as a character. ^^;

Tifa's not just "hot" - she's beautiful, inside and out. (well, in my taste. *wink*)
("Don't cha wish your girlfriend was hot like meh TIFA!?") :tifa: <3

TOASTER STRUDLE!? *gets a seizure from being too joyful and dies* <-- O_0;;
*remembers Mean Girls - "Gretchen's father" is the owner of that thing*

*man, my dad is calling me. BRB, everyone. :blush:*
Could've explained better, but I gotta go. Sorries! >.<

[/I]i really don't like what I'm seeing on thos topic sooo far...so bare with me while i get some things straight. :mad:

1) I don't like Tifa much at all...but i feel that some of you are being kinda mean :( Tifa is not a whore or anything cause of her outfit. If she's a whore cause of her outfit...then a lot of people must be...cause, well...some people are, lets just say, show a little more skin then Tifa. I personally think that her outfit had something to do with her Martial arts ands that maybe it helped her move around more and mobilise. As beautiful as it is, i can't imagine Tifa kicking a monsters ass with aerith's cute little number. So yeah, i think that she can kick alot easier with her legs exposed.

2) Yeah...it was admittable that Tifa's personality was VERY annoying when she constantly got in the way of cloud and aerith's love in the first disk...but i would if i was her. If i were Tifa...i would be shocked that cloud found someone so close to him...and would try ta win him back. It happens in real life people.

3)People start hating Tifa cause she is not there fave character and that there is too much compition between who is and isn't the main gal in FFVII and AC. this is getting very tiresome. Both gals, in my opinion, have a main role in the game, if not more aerith. to hate a character cause you don't believe they are the main gurl...well...that's just harsh, not to mention stupid.

Well that's it for now...oh, and...

That was beautifully put and i couldn't have put it better, True Serenity *hugz* :huggle:

I read through the whole thread a couple of days ago, so maybe I've just forgotten them, but I don't recall many here calling Tifa a whore because of her outfit. One or two posts may have criticised her outfit, but that's about as far as it went.

We have quite a number of Tifa fans on this forum, so I would think some of them would've said something if anyone called Tifa a whore on those grounds.

I really don't buy this argument. I don't consider Tifa a whore for that outfit (being a whore/slut/etc. is more of a state of mind in my book), but you can't expect me to believe you can perform high-kicks in skirts that short without expecting it to either roll up to your waist, or revealing several dozen panty shots.

Tifa certainly can't do martial arts in Aerith's long dress either, but her critics aren't asking her to dress like Aerith. Yuffie's shorts would do just as well, or any number of martial arts gear.

I view Tifa's FFVII outfit as being for purely fanservice purposes and nothing more. Bear in mind that I don't think negatively of her character while stating that-- plenty of female characters in games, anime, manga and movies have also dressed provocatively, yet remain interesting characters. I never take her FFVII outfit into consideration when evaluating her as a character, because it's pretty obvious Nomura/Squaresoft sacrificed accuracy to advertising in her case. It's really nothing new.

For example, Tifa's little number is no less unsuitable than Isabel's (Suikoden 5). And I recall someone stating that the FFVI females wore leotards. Fanservice is part and parcel of many games, and in FFVII's case, Tifa was the character chosen for that role.

I'm just very glad Square had the brains to give her a decent personality rather than leave her as your stereotypical air-headed bimbo.

...But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate Luna's excellant analysis of Tifa's outfit and her true personality. :wub: I have to eat dinner now, though, so I'm afraid I'll have to respond to that later. ^_^