Ack I'm a posting maniac! But I just found this onThe Advent Children Livejournal. There's something called Final Fantasy VII: Early File, which is a collection of notes and scenarios from Square's rough drafts of the game. A wonderful person named animekittysama has been translating a lot of it here.

Apparantly in this part that she translated, after Cloud recovers in Mideel (in the second disc), he and Tifa has a conversation. Apparantly, her role in his mishap didn't go forgotten.



After the Party returns to Mideel

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Tifa: Why did we end up back at the village after I woke up?

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Cloud: I acted so shamefully.
I said that I had kept my promise to go join SOLDIER, but really I was a normal trooper.
I didn't want everyone back home to see me in such a miserable condition.

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Tifa: That's not the issue here.
I'm sure you gave it your all to try and get into SOLDIER.

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Cloud: But still, it was wrong of me.
And, hiding everything about myself really was shameful.
But Sephiroth couldn't erase my true self.
However having a childhood friend lie to be about my true self, that might be why I lost it.
Sephiroth could only do what he did because he had an assistant......

(Oh! PWNED! Cloud finally tells Tifa that it was partly her fault for not facing up to him. I always thought that she was partially to blame.... >>;;; Too bad that her response was cut off... I bet it would have been a massive guilt trip.

And yay for Cloud using "ore"! That's back to your real self.)



That last part was commentary from animekittysama. Now I actually like Tifa, so this isn't a 'nya ha ha' post. But I just thought it was really interesting that this was originally supposed to be in the game. I'm not sure whether I would have liked it better. After all, Tifa made a mistake, a bad one (which she really should have owned up for) but it was really understandable too if you think about it. Well, what do you guys think?

Oh, and apparantly there's an argument going on in that thread of lj over animekittysama's commentary (some hard core Tifa fans I guess). I'd check it out, it's very interesting.

That last part doesn't looks quite right to me (some other parts as well). It seems more like "maybe since the time I hid myself (eg, wearing the mask) from my childhood friend, I'd already lost myself/didn't exist. Sephiroth just took advantage of that..."

I'm guessing this is from the Ultimania? :hyper: Yay for more Ultimania tidbits!

Thank you SO much for the translations, nyrin! :huggle: I'm going to be devouring this and the rest of animekittysama's translations later, but I couldn't help snickering at this line:

Yuffie: So some time ago, Sephiroth captured Cloud's heart, like we said.

Thank you, Yuffie. You've canonised Clephiroth. *cackle*

Just quickly read through the bit you posted. I don't hold anything against Tifa for doing what she did-- I guess I'm one of those people who felt her confusion was understandable, she was in a tough position etc. Hindsight is a great advantage we, as players, have. We know what should be done, but the characters don't necessarily do.

What I don't do for her, though, is try to absolve her of ALL guilt or make too many excuses for her (as some of the commentors in the LJ seem to try to be doing). Fact is that she did hide stuff from Cloud, and it led to devastating results. Tifa did something wrong-- is that really so hard to accept?

The beauty in all this is that Tifa made up for it by sticking with him during his comatose period, helping Cloud regain his true memories etc.

As for Cloud blaming Tifa-- I'm not sure if I would've liked it better or not either. All I can say is that I certainly wouldn't blame Cloud for doing so. It's easier for players not to blame Tifa for lying to Cloud because we have a more detached, third-person POV on things. But if you were in Cloud's shoes, who realised the friend you trusted so much lied to you all this while, when the truth might've stopped you from handing over the Black Materia-- it's not as easy to forgive.

(Just the same way we can adore Zack even though he's a "ladies man", and Aerith-haters shun her for not forgiving/getting back together with him. But honestly, how many women would actually be able to stand having their boyfriend that's known as a ladies' man?)

Interesting difference, there. I wonder if anyone else has tried translating this particular part? Then we can compare and contrast and figure out which is the most accurate translation. ^_^

Goodness, now isn't this an interesting find.

Hm, it still goes to the point that Cloud lose himself because of Tifa, some way or another. If he hadn't felt obliged to [put on the mask] because of her, he wouldn't have lose himself.
I wonder they didn't focus more on Tifa's guilt in FF7. That would've been interesting to see.

Tifa's mistake was huge. If not for her, so many things would not have happened, and Cloud would not have had to go through so much pain. I'm not one of those people that can understand and forgive her mistake. I'm one of those that thinks she's made her mistake and has to pay for it. <_< What's worse it that she never even attempted to own up to it. Did she even apologize to Cloud?
Staying by CLoud was what she chose to do to redeem herself, but IMO - she seemed to be doing it more for herself than for him. She needed him to tell her that everything was okay. Shouldn't it be the other way round, especially when Cloud was in that situation?
Wouldn't it have been better if she redemmed herself by continuing on her duties to Avalanche instead of running to Cloud and throwing everything else aside? :unsure:

Then again, I'm not a big Tifa fan, so maybe I'm biased. *shrugs* :lol:

I'm glad to share guys :D

Yes I can see where you're going with that. Testimony to that fact:

Interesting choice of words, eh?

Wow. Playing the game I was really surprised with two facts:
a. Tifa didn't appologize
b. Cloud didn't blame her
Those two were such weird for me. I think it's out of human nature. In one way or another we ask for forgiveness. I mean, yes, she stayed near Cloud but did she ever tell him she was sorry? I usually tell this word when I accidentally hit someone in the street, even if that someone is stranger. And in Cloud's situation everything is much more complicated and much more difficult. His "childhood" friend was lying to him for a long time and he didn't blame her. Not even a little. <_<

I can say that this situation is alike with, for example, when someone is very ill and his close people (friends, relatives, etc) hide the truth from him. Yes, telling the truth in such case is hard and painfull, but it's necessary. The faster you know the truth the easier your treatment will be. That's what the doctors say, not me.
But Tifa didn't tell the truth when it was required. I understand that it was hard but Cloud needed it. Especially when she was the only one who knew the truth. Can it be determined as weakness? <_< Yes, it also makes her human. But at least she should have been blamed for this I think.

Well, it was harsh but -Cloud- can't be blamed. He was betrayed and he had the right to rell her everything he thought. After all, can someone even imagine what was happening inside his heart and mind? I don't think so, and that's good. I wish nobody can feel it.

Then I'm too. Actually, I'm indifferent to her. Not that I don't even pay attention to her. I'm neutral, I think. But I blame her for not telling the truth. Yes, she is human as we all are but I can't do anything with my opinion. *shrugs*

That certainly adds a little more insight into the relationship between Cloud and Tifa. I wouldn't necessarily call Tifa a liar though. Yes, she did lie. But I think the motivations behind the lie ought to be accounted for. For liars, the motivations are usually self-gain and manipulative. I think Tifa lied more because she didn't know how Cloud would react, and she was scared. While that could be considered self-gain, I don't think it was entirely selfish. Tifa is human, and we all mistakes. But I definitely think that she should've apologized to Cloud. The reprocusions(sp?) of her actions were deeply felt, and you could argue that Cloud giving the Black Materia to Sephiroth was partially her fault.

OMG SQUEE!!!

animekittysama updated with another file, this time a scene in which Cloud is supposed to talk to Rufus: on a ferris wheel? um...

http://community.livejournal.com/adventchi...005.html#cutid1

All the others she's done are linked up there. But guess what? There's a hella cute part that I absolutely have to post up here (assuming the translation's correct)

SO CUTE!!!

"Hella cute" is completely right. :hyper: OMG!!! That entire scene is just so awesome. Rufus talking, Cloud, Aerith, Aerith mentioned as their source of strength, Cloud "speaking" to Aerith almost to himself...

:hyper: :hyper: :hyper:

Even if it never made it into the end product, it's still just SO SWEET. *explodes*

*forgets any chance of making a constructive post tonight*

Awwww! :swoon: They should have left it!
This line was so cute. The fangirl inside of me is happy! THe fact that Rufus didn't hear that line means that Cloud actually told it to himself!

*cough* I didn't get it. :ermm: I need somebody to explain. Seems to me I'm not that smart to understand this simple line. Something is wrong with me today. :no:

:lmao: To be honest, I'm not too sure what that last line means either. These are early drafts of the game, and we don't know the full, exact context in which these dialogues take place.

For me, it seems like Cloud and AVALANCHE somehow managed to avoid trouble with Rufus (he leaves... maybe they were able to convince him not to attack them?), and Cloud is commenting to himself/Aerith that their confrontation with Rufus ended nicely.

Either way, what matters to me right now is how Cloud speaks to Aerith so personally. :fangirl:

I don't know about there being another version, the best I give is dissecting it ^^;

- 幼なじみに - [from my] childhood friend
- 自分の姿を隠している - hiding myself/my appearence/identity
- ときから - from the time/from when
-すでに - already
- 俺の存在などなかたったの - didn't have my existence/being/stopped existing
- かもしれない - perhaps, maybe

- セフィロスは - Sephiroth
- ただ - merely
- それに付け入ってきた - took advantage of that
- だけだったんだ - just [+past tense]

Oh, thanks, Lynn :huggle: ! Now it makes some sense to me. But even without it the whole dialogue is like music for any Cleris fan :lol:

Then it seems that he is speaking like she is standing by his side. And he really believes it. Way to go, Cloud! :P

Maybe it's just me, but with this, plus the earlier Tifa confrontation, it almost feels to me that the earlier FF7 draft was more Cleris than anything. Of course that's probably my bias, but it just seems like the earlier draft was pushing the couple a lot more (too bad they didn't keep it :()

Hmm... I don't know. I accept that I like some of those scenes, but that doesn't change that they were taken out of the game (the official release), so those scenes proves nothing. Sad but true. Even so, thanks for sharing, nyrin.

I think it proves the creators' intentions. Maybe they changed these things for time efficiency or maybe because it came into too much conflict with the date game they set up. Either way, it shows what couple the creators were endorsing while making the game :D .

OH.MY.GOD.

...

CCCCUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! :fangirl:

Excuse me while I go off and fangirl for a moment. :fangirl: Awwww, I love how Cloud said that!!! :fangirl:

I understand why Tifa did what she did, she thought that something terrible might happen if she told the truth eventhough her not telling the truth caused things much worse to happen. I like Tifa, but I still feel she played a major part in some of the things that happened with Cloud.

that line is so cute, I wish it would of stayed in the game

Not necesarilly, maybe that shows that they were endorsing it at that time, but then, they didn't wanted to endorse them anymore and took it out.

I have to make clear, that I'm not saying that I think that there's no possibility that they were endorsing Cloud & Aerith, the fact is that I just wanted to show that there are other possibilities as well.

Hm, I may not have been clear enough...I didn't mean that these scenes prove Cleris in the game as it is now. Lol why would I? I'm just saying that these earlier drafts had a more Clerisy feel, at least to me.

Obviously they wanted to take that out for whatever reason, thus it didn't make it into the final draft. But those earlier files do have at the very least a Clerisy feel - well I guess if you look at the clips I posted here.

Oh, of course there are other possibilities besides what I am suggesting. I just don't think that the creators would start off making the characters, writing the script, and hammering out the plot canonizing one couple and then just decide they like another couple better half way through and abandon their love for the original couple.

Attention! animekittysama has updated with another interesting dimension to the whole 'Tifa being blamed for Cloud's going funny' thing in the original version of FF7.

Again the commentary is by animekittysama of course, not me. You can find the whole thing right here.

I'm interested in knowing what you guys think!

Wow... so, originally, Tifa knew the truth the whole time??? :blink:

That's... interesting...

So Aerith already knew that Tifa knew Zack? And why is Tifa wearing the pic of the three of them, whom she wasn't even close to? Doesn't make sense.

And I squee at Cloud's words. "Aerith, that went well."

"Cloud: Aeris....... That went well." :fangirl:
haha sorry, it's just so cute :P

It's possible that this first draft was made after the events of visiting Gongaga with Tifa and Aeris in your party, Aeris might've observed the conversation between Cloud and Tifa when she bald-faced lied to him about knowing Zack. That's my best guess as to how Aeris knew Tifa knew about Zack, the pendant around her neck though is something I can't explain, you'ld think she'ld keep a pendant around her neck of her mother and father, not a pendant around her neck of Sephiroth, Zack and herself.

TACK is the new canon!!!!! :hyper: J/K... :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

It makes you wonder though why Tifa had a pic of herself with Zack and Seph rather than any pics of Cloud... :whistle:

its very interesting! i like when cloud talks to aeris as she could hear him , and he blamed tifa!! :D

i loved the line where Cloud was talking to Aeris/himself! adorable!

and hey, the whole locket with a picture of Zack thing... gosh if i weren't already a Zack/Tifa fan, that definitely would've gotten me thinking! :fangirl:

i can't remember when or where i read this, but apparently it's been rumored that FF7 was originally supposed to be a love story between Cloud/Aeris, but apparently things got so complicated that the love story would've made the game even longer and much more confusing, so Square decided to chuck the love story and use it in FF8 instead (which they did).

(should this be a new thread?? cuz we seem to have gone off topic long ago lol)


much love!

*joins others in squeeing over the "that went well" line*
For those who didn't understand the last line...I interpreted it as being slightly sarcastic, the way characters often sardonically say "Well, that went well" after bad stuff happens.
Ah, well, what's important to me is, Cloud was speaking TO Aerith, and cited her as the main motivation why they keep fighting :fangirl: