This has been a short recap of a CloTi's essay. Now they think the hand reaching scene is stupid... :cry: can i ask a question? What makes more sense, the Clerith opinions or the CloTi's opinions?

To Lynn, FF_Goddess, Anastar, and to everyone who wants to answer me...please.. :cry: :cry: :cry:



:cleris:

Consider that you're asking this on a pro-CLERIS forum. What do you think the majority of the responses will be? It's like asking on a Cloud forum who would win in a fight-- Cloud or Squall. :lol:

At the most neutral level, you'll get someone answering that both sides have opinions that make sense-- but I guarantee that the majority of people here feel the Cleris opinions make more sense. After all, we wouldn't support a pairing if we didn't think it made sense to us, would we?

I agree with the poster that Aerith was trying to save Cloud at that time. If she hadn't led him back to reality, he likely would've fallen right back into the crater and died.

I also like to believe that she led him to Tifa so that Cloud would be in time to save her. I think it was immediately after Cloud saw Tifa that the latter began to fall, thanks to the ground crumbling under her.

However, if the poster is trying to imply that Aerith is leading Cloud to Tifa in a sign that he should move on with her, that Aerith was "giving" Cloud to Tifa, then I strongly disagree.

Dude, I'm seriously holding myself back from screaming out 'LAWL CLOTAY OPINIONZ, SECKS, PLZ? ROFLMAO!!' xD I'm only kidding, I think both opinions make a good amount of sense, but it really matters who it's coming from.

I don't really know what to think about that Cloti thing, though, Aeris was trying to save Cloud, but although the symbolism of 'he wouldn't see Aeris, but he'd see Tifa' is interesting, I don't think I agree with it. :mellow:

I think that's reinforced by Cloud saying afterwards, "I think I can meet her... there". Although a strict Japanese translation of that line doesn't really specify who Cloud wants to meet, the mere fact that he says this after seeing Aerith's hand indicates to me that he's talking about meeting Aerith, since that's the most likely meaning of the context in which he says it.

MotP called it the "Mako Stream", which is what we usually call the Lifestream. It's not the Promised Land. Why would a battle be fought in a land of supreme happiness? :lol: :P

Okay, this is the part that bothers me. I do think that Aerith is trying to draw Cloud back into reality, but I don't think she's doing that to hand Cloud over to Tifa. Aerith is just doing that to rescue Cloud from death. Here's what it says in MotP:

This time, Cloud had separated from his body and was now in an absentminded state but, in the abyss of the Mako world, he saw a hand there to guide him. It was white and delicate - it reminded him of the hand that gave him a flower in Midgar. Unconsciously, he stretched out his hand...

His conscious returned to his body. Tifa's hand grasped his as the ground below him collapsed away.

If the hand hadn't been there to guide him then he would have been at the bottom of Hades right now. It was good timing. Cloud realized that he had been saved.

So Aerith's goal was to save Cloud from certain death. I agree with what Lynn said earlier - it's not that Aerith was leading Cloud to Tifa as a sign that he should move on with Tifa. There's nothing to indicate that Aerith was "giving" Cloud to Tifa. Aerith was simply leading Cloud back to the real world so that he wouldn't die.

Yup, definitely agree!! Besides that, lilixtrixee,(in my opinion) in other view, u can think that because at that time Tifa was the nearest one who can save Cloud, therefore, Aeris guide Cloud to Tifa's hand. As we remember the ending scene everyone was far away, and maybe Tifa was too worried about Cloud and that's why she try to reach to Cloud and Aeris saw her as the one who was the nearest one that can save Cloud, and that's why Aeris guide Cloud to her hand... :P I think this is quite logic and make sense too!!


Actually that scene also show that Cloud really thirst for seing Aeris :cleris:

Exactly. Their nonsense was just-- in the words of TD-- DEBUNKED!!!! :lmao: The proof was in "MotP".

This scene somehow bothers me. We know that Cloud didn't catch Tifas hand in FFVII. What the story says here it just not true, we know that for a fact. So I'd be careful to use MoTP as "prove" for anything.

However if Aeris was leading Cloud to Tifa than he clearly misunderstood the message when he is talking about meeting Aeris later - which is unproven, as said before, but just makes sense considering the situation. Whom else would he want to meet?

Both girls reached out for Cloud to save his life, not to steal his heart and in the end he couldn't grasp meither Aeris nor tifas hand. The important thing about this scene - to me - is that its the first clear indication that Aeris is still around somehow (and Clouds words later indicate that it will continue to be this way).

Yeah. I've actually seen this essay before, and it bothered me too. I don't think it was about Aerith guiding Cloud to Tifa at all. The way I saw it, he saw Aerith's hand, and he felt the same comfort he always felt in her presence. He missed her, he smiled, and he reached out to her. But she was doing it to save his life. He was in a dream like state on a shelf that was about to collapse. She was bringing him back to reality to save him, not to say "Hey, Cloud! You should totally be with Tifa." If she loved him- which was practically stated flat out in MoTP- why would she guide him to another woman?

I've tried everything to answer this question using such tools as logic, intuition, and my spidey sense. But it's too hard to answer it when you're as biased as we are. Millions of times, I've reviewed the evidence with as much of an objective mind as I can muster when it comes to the LTD, but I love Clerith way too damn much to be fair about it. Everytime it even enters my mind, all I can say is, "Clerith just makes way more sense!" I almost completely ignore the logic in Cloti. But, and this is being as objective as is possible for me, I still maintain that we have more factual evidence on our side (factual= little to no room for interpretation). If people want to know what I consider to be "factual evidence", I'll reply, but I'm too lazy to type it all up now :P .

True that Tifa didn't grab Cloud's hand in FFVII. However, I wouldn't discredit MotP because of one minor detail when so much of MotP coincides very closely with FFVII's story.

I discredit Last Order, for example, because there's so many contradictions to FFVII's story that actually contradict important elements of FFVII's story, such as Tifa knowing that Cloud was there during the Nibelheim incident, Cloud not throwing Sephiroth into the Mako stream, and Tseng shooting at Cloud in the back of the truck from a helicopter. Those contradictions actually impact FFVII's story. Does Tifa grabbing Cloud's hand in MotP impact the original story? Not really. That's too minor to worry about, IMO.

Heheh... true. That's another thing that would indicate that Aerith didn't do it with the intention of "giving" Cloud to Tifa.

I agree.

Good point, Great Gospel. The others weren't around to help Cloud. Only Tifa had stayed behind, so she was closest.

What bothers me most in the entire “she leads him to Tifa” reasoning is the fact it seems to completely ignore Cloud’s feelings on the subject. Of course, the first and obvious motive for BOTH girls surely was saving his life (I take this is proven enough at this point). However...

Stated as author’s opinion, so fair enough. Still, this is valid interpretation, and this scene COULD have more meaning to it. So, let’s assume for a moment that Aerith is indeed leading Cloud to Tifa suggesting that he should move on with her, that Aerith is "giving" Cloud to Tifa, as the original author believes. The problem is, Cloud’s not really hers to “give”. Even if she was willing to sacrifice her own feelings (we agree what her feelings are, right?) for what she believed was better for him (I understand that’s the author’s reasoning), he still would have to respond and accept this sacrifice. In other words, most we could get from that interpretation is... an offer? A way of showing him a possible path? After all, even Aerith cannot just direct his feelings in such a way. At most, she’s showing him a possibility, maybe (OK, let’s push it... a lot...) even giving her blessing, showing her acceptance. But it’s still up to Cloud. He may or may not follow this path that was so generously offered to him. And seeing as he smiled as he reached out to Aerith, how he still talked about meeting her even though Tifa was by his side... well, I took it as a rather strong hint about his feelings at the moment.

To make things clear (being a newbie and all), I don’t really agree with this essay’s interpretation of the scene, I think this person is reading too much into a very confused, life-or-death situation. However, even if we accept the “she leads his hand to Tifa” thing, as a proof it’s still flawed because of taking Cloud out of the picture. If anything, this would be saying more about Aerith’s selfless nature than Cloud’s eventual choices.

Well, Im really glad u answered me, thanks for bothering to post up some.......posts...

Well, that essay was just half of it, some of the essay says that yeah, he saw Aerith's hand, practically they think it was a vision, and also we know the scene he's reaching for Aerith, and now the CloTis think Cloud snapped back from reality and sees Tifa's hand extended to him. Also they say it was a sign that Cloud snapped back from reality because *if* he held her hand, he's on the way to promise land, and now the CloTis think that Cloud doesnt belong there, so he sees Tifa.
:lmao:

But still Cloud says to Tifa, "I think I can meet her....there." :cleris:

Well...now i've finally come up from my conclusions...i even imagined if i was a CloTi (which is nto ever going to happen!), i still think the Clerith evidences makes more sense.

Lol lots of thanks to:: Anastar, FF_Goddess, Lynn, msz aeris strife, Sternenstaub, Great Gospel, Rikkulicious!!!
:huggle:

That's an excellent point, Whisper. Even if Aerith were "giving" Cloud to Tifa, Aerith can't make up Cloud's mind for him how he should feel for Tifa. In the past, I've seen too many Cloti's use similar reasoning. For example, Cloti's will often claim that Tifa trying to tell Cloud that she loves him during their date is an indication of Cloti. In reality, it's only indicating Tifa's feelings for Cloud, not Cloud's feelings for Tifa. There's no indication during Cloud's date with Tifa that he has any feelings for Tifa at all. He's just wondering what she's trying to say. :giggle:

Another thing that ought to be taken into account is what Cloud was actually thinking at the time. I've always thought that when Cloud reached out for Aerith's hand, he was reaching out for it - not because he knew his life was in danger and she was trying to save him - but moreso becuase he wanted to reach out, to be with her. Just look at the expression on his face, he even reached his hand out first. Anyways, standing there in a soft circle of light definitely doesn't scream "ZOMG THE GROUND IS GOING TO COLLAPSE I'M GOING TO DIE." so I don't think he had any indication she was trying to save him, only that he wanted to be with her. :unsure:

Aerith, of course, was trying to pull him away from danger, but that's only natural - and anyways, *whole-heartedly agrees with everyone else who says it doesn't symbolize she's 'giving' him away to Tifa*. :lol:

But there's nothing to indicate that taking Aerith's hand will bring him to the Promised Land. Aerith was merely trying to save him. He took her hand in AC, but he didn't end up getting sucked into any land, promised or not, now did he? :lol: Aerith guided him to Tifa because she was the only one - minus the other group members - that could see the danger he was in, and was trying to help him as well.

Never underestimate the power of Aerith's and Tifa's bond!! :hide:

*gets smacked by pink swastika of nazism Clerisness* :lol:

Ah, I don't know. For me it was always very important that he didn't manage to grasp Tifas hand in FFVII either, so this really annouys me.

I for once, don't think any of the recent additions (the compilation) to FFVII as any worth for understanding the original game and shouldn't be considered proof anyway. But we don't need to stress this here.
I just wanted to say that this story has some flaws and maybe should be taken lightly - like the whole compilation.

:cleris:

And now we know that it wasn't merely a "vision" because Cloud took Aerith's hand in AC. You can't take hold of a vision, can you?

Very true, yin-chan. There was no indication that Cloud was trying to save himself, either. Cloud realized that he was in the Lifestream. We know that because he said, ".......Lifestream?" as the columns of Lifestream started to swirl around him. So he must have known that he was in danger. Yet, instead of trying to save himself, he was intent on reaching for Aerith's hand. Isn't that another indication that he wanted to be with her, since reaching for her hand was more important to him than saving himself?

Yep, yep. He didn't get pulled into the Promised Land in AC when he took her hand, did he? I think Aerith also led him to Tifa because Tifa was the only one who had stayed behind. Remember how Barret, Cid, Cait Sith, and Red XIII are shown on the opposite ledge afterwards? So Tifa had stayed behind, making her the only one who could reach Cloud.

EDIT:

But it doesn't affect the rest of the story that Cloud wasn't able to take Tifa's hand in the game, because he did jump up and grab her by the waist. So, in both versions, he took hold of her in some way.

Compare that to the contradictions in Last Order. If Tifa knew that Cloud was at Nibelheim, for example, why did she tell him during the Lifestream Event that he wasn't there? The contradictions in Last Order actually change the story and affect the plot, whereas whether Cloud was able to take Tifa's hand or grab her by the waist doesn't really signify a very big difference.

Sometimes I wonder if Clotis have played the game! When they go on and on about how Aerith was giving Cloud to Tifa, they don't remember that Aerith wasn't like that. She wants Cloud to be happy, not like some doll she can just "give away"! He's not an object! :angry:

How could Cloti fans take a beautiful, heart-warming, and meaningful scene and turn it into something that proves Cloud and Tifa were the true couple? That scene was made for Cloud and Aeris, and Cloud and Aeris alone!

Man, cloti fans are so dense sometimes. :D

Watch, they'll probly take the beginning scence with Aeris and Cloud and say it has something to do with Cloud and Tifa. :D

Well, I guess it depends which clotis your talking too. Some twist and turn it while others denied. <_<

Possible. But MOTP is translated by fans, so it may or may not be accurate. Until SE actually release something out or english very own Ultamania or something, we don't really know if that's what it actually says. Just like with AC, they were all fansubs and some dialogues were way off or inaccurate.

You know what I just found out in this Strifeheart forum? In Last Order, they say that Cloud and Tifa are the canon couple, SE directed it. Can anyone help me with that question?

Though I haven't seen it, that sound a bit off and somewhat stupid.

If, IF Cloti is canon in LO, then why bother having Cloud obviously shown interest in Aerith (in his own Cloud-ish way) later on? That kinda contradicts, doesn't it?

Beside, LO is based on the visit to Nibelheim Reactor, just something I thought was some extra added to something happen in the past. Also, ask anyone with more FF7 knowledge then me and there's some stuff that can defuse the 'Clotiness' in LO.

And let's not forgot SE wouldn't end the LT sooner or later, more money for them. Nomura is very fond of being vague about it. IF canon, wouldn't we heard about it already or something? Like SE showing a scene to verify it?

Just don't believe anything Clotis say, unless SE said so.

That my thoughts, I'm sure one of the other Cleris can explain better then me.

First off, there are plenty of rational people looking kinda O_o at LO because it contradicts what happens in the game. Tifa is not supposed to have seen Cloud or even remembered him being there.

Also, they obviously forget that LO is supposed to take place about five years before FFVII--and no matter how anyone wants to look at it, you cannot deny the overwhelming amount of evidence pointing towards Cloud's interest in Aerith. Of course, Rabid Clotis will try with all their might, but they have never been able to refute the evidence and come out of it looking credible. :cleris:

First of all, LO really messes up some events. As it was said earlier, Tifa wasn't supposed to see Cloud. But the way they made it in LO it looks like she is abusing their promise.

Next. Canon couple? Do I always miss the part where somebody says that Cloud and Tifa were dating and proclaimed their "love" for each other? :blink:

And little soothing fact: LO takes place 5 years before the game. Cloud hadn't known Aerith then. There even was no LT at that time. So don't worry about that.

Oh, Lynx!! You are sooo good at making me feel better!!! Your soo smart when it come to these things!! :huggle: :huggle: Thanks soo much!! Clotis will never win!! :D :P

Being a more open minded cleris...I think that the cloti essays are fine, and that they make good points, although i prefer cleris essays, as they have more evidence then opinions. :lol:

LO did have a cute little Cloti moment.. but, hardly enough to make it Cannon. It was just Cloud smiling at her.. cute, but I'd be smiling too if I just fulfilled a big ol' promise xD

I agree, it was just Cloud smiling at her...similar to how Tifa was giggling at Reno in AC, similar to how Tifa smiled at Vincent during the Bahamut scene. Strange that the Clotis don't try to make those out to be something that proves ReTi or TifaXVincent. I honestly think Cloud was just smiling with relief that Tifa wasn't dead. This "cloti" scene here happened before he attacked Sephiroth, right? At that point, Cloud hadn't done anything heroic except finding Tifa...so I'm not quite sure how he had already fulfilled her promise in any way.

More than that! We all know this moment conflicts with the game story. It makes all the FFVII events so messy and illogical. I just like to watch Zack in action there but I can't approve of changing the events.
BTW, give Clotis at least one moment to sigh for! :lol:

I kinda disavowed any knowledge of LO when it was released for the same reasons. When something contradicts the source material I always treat it as an alternate universe of sorts and just ignore it in mainstream disscussions.

Never!! I wouldnt let the Cloti's relax..... i want them on their toes at all times!! :mad:

Oh...just a wild rant about Cloti essays...
Not to be so rude to the clotis who loves to write an essay about their ahem...their love... :rolleyes:
but I noticed that their essays aren't open, it's closed to the so-called Cloti moments, it only focuses on Cloud and Tifa, they never mentioned things of what we Clerises claimed as our proofs and evidences (and they are 100 percent true by Tetsuya Nomura!).
And the difference of we Clerises is we discuss all the Cloti evidences :puke:

XD Just the thing in my mind, it really bothers me they don't include Aerith's name in most of the cloti essays. It seems like they're pretending that Aerith isn't such an important character at all, plus they seem like Cloud never gathered Aerith in his arms when...she...you know. There wasn't even "Why do I despise Cleris?" essay...(it is because they don't have any proof Cloud didn't show affection to Aerith at all!) :whistle:
Additional: Some Clotis claim that Cloud and Aerith did love each other, but it wasn't meant to be. God they need a priest to understand 'a love that can never be'.

Cloud loves Aerith more than anyone and forever will! AMEN.

:giggle:

Not to be so picky, but it's the story of "a love that COULD never be". That does make a bit of a difference...only 'cos it's not the story of a love that can never exist, but a line from Romeo and Juliet in reference to star-crossed lovers(two lovers pulled apart due to some tragic event).

XD was it "COULD"? Haha, very sorry, I saw somewhere that it was "CAN" hehe...
but seriously, the quote that 'a love that could never be' means that a love that was stopped by a very ugly event, they were seperated, not that they stopped loving each other, damn those Clotis...another thing that bothers me really is they make Aerith sound like a whore, they never appreciated Aerith even as an individual from what i seen in most cloti essays.

It's been a while since I read an Cloti essay with an open mind, which is kinda hard for me not to made sarcastic remarks about their choice of words that'll probably made them want to kill me slowly and painfully.

If ANYONE even seen a Cloti essay that also open-minded and ACTUALLY analysed the Cleris evidences, tell me. I need to see one that's true and not mention that they're childhood friends or whatever, just the reason why they like the pairing, regardless of what others think. Heck, is there an essay without reference to Aerith acting even remotely like a prostitute?

Then again, that can be wistful thinking for me.

start my opinion
Sadly I haven't seen one (yet); in essays, forum posts...no one appreciated Aerith in the Cloti world, i think. My friend told me that Clotis doesn't like Aerith because she thinks they're just jealous and guilty that Cloud really loves Aerith more than Tifa, she told me that they really knows the fact, all the recent words i've seen in CxT essays like, "I can't see why Cloud will like Aeris, Tifa..." and there goes.

I pleaded my grandmother to watch AC with us, she kept asking questions though. I asked her who Cloud loves, she told me it was the pink girl, even though she doesn't know nor a clue about the story. Funny really, I just hope Clotis at least examine the scene where Cloud cries (yes, he did, his shoulders heaved) of losing Aerith. If I can, I'll give all the stubborn CxT fans a copy of MOTP, and edit their essays with more consideration and study of Cleris evidences, plus to remove their bitching and accusation of Aerith as a whore, because what i can see, we Clerises thank Tifa for being supportive for Cloud in a friendly way.
Haha! I've never sounded that serious before, i'm all humor!!!

<end of my opinion>

Yeah, I showed the movie to a friend who hadn't played FFVII and she said it was obvious to her that Cloud was grieving over Aerith. She said that she also thought it was obvious that Tifa had feelings for Cloud, but that Cloud was still in love with Aerith. :D

I showed the movie to my boyfriend, who doesn't know the first thing about FF, and he said that he thought Tifa had a "thing" for Cloud but Cloud "not so much for Tifa". Then, he went on to say that he thought Cloud was still "hung up" on Aerith. :lmao: