So what should I say to them? >_> I have nothing to say right now really, I'm just too angry to think. <_<

As for this load of b.s.... ask this person where Cloud's "happy childhood" memories were when he relived his past in the Lifestream. Last I remember, Cloud's childhood memories were anything but pleasant. He remembered growing up in a town with people who ignored him and never accepted him. He remembered admiring Tifa and her group from afar and never being invited in. He remembered being blamed for Tifa falling off the Mt. Nibel bridge. He remembered feelings of helplessness and rage. Where, exactly, is the happiness? Cloud and Tifa were never friends as children and she stated so herself.

In fact, in CoT, the story spoke of Cloud and Tifa revisiting Nibelheim and all it did was awake uneasy feelings about the past. Neither of them were happy thinking about it. If they were so happy together as children, why the problem with visiting their old hometown?

And as for the promise... Tifa did not display any interest in Cloud until he mentioned joining SOLDIER and becoming as powerful and famous as Sephiroth. Then, suddenly, Tifa becomes interested in Cloud. Why? Simple, she wanted to be associated with someone who was powerful and famous. Not only that, but she wanted a famous "hero" to rescue her one day. And so the promise is baseless and selfish.

Also, let us not forget that Tifa had to BEG Cloud to make this promise in the first place (yes, asking three times is considered begging). I mean, what do you call this, if not begging...?

Tifa: "Come on--! Promise me----!"

Cloud said, "What?" twice and then, finally, reluctantly, agreed to it. If Cloud and Tifa were so close and Cloud liked her so much, wouldn't he jump at the chance to impress her??? Why was he so reluctant? Was this because Cloud only wanted to be accepted into her group, of which she was the leader? Was this because Cloud never had a crush on her at all???

Let us compare this to when Aerith asked Cloud to be her bodyguard. Cloud readily agreed to become Aerith's bodyguard in exchange for one date (and, gee, she only asked once, too). It is obvious Cloud is attracted to Aerith from the first moment they met. Compared with the "promise" made with Tifa, which Cloud promptly forgot, Cloud proclaimed himself Aerith's bodyguard in front of everyone, even Tifa. Even when Tifa asked him to fulfill his promise after joining AVALANCHE, Cloud did not remember the promise and, even when he did, he blew it off, telling Tifa he couldn't fulfill the promise. Does this sound like he was interested in being her hero? Nope. Tifa and Aerith asked Cloud the same thing-- "be my hero, protect me". He readily took Aerith up on the offer, but was reluctant to do so with Tifa. Why would Cloud do this if Tifa was the one he wanted?

And, yes, Aerith is so useless! She should have just stayed out of the way! After all, who needed Holy or the Lifestream, right? In fact, who the hell needed Aerith to heal everyone of Geostigma and take care of the SHM? I am sure Tifa could have kicked the shit out of Meteor and Geostigma with her ZOMFG MARSHIAL ARTZ SKILLZORZ. :lmao: Aerith was the heroine and they need to get over their lame Tifa-worship, because, quite frankly, she didn't do a whole lot in the game or the movie.

I guess this person has never watched AC or read MotP, because, if they had, they would have seen that the main gist of the novella and Aerith's appearances in AC were to show that, in the world of Final Fantasy, death means nothing. Cloud and Aerith interacted many times during AC. And, at the end, he is shown riding out to where she is waiting in the flower field. And, you know what? He sure looks hopeful to me (and he sure as hell isn't riding to Seventh Heaven). :whistle:

Actually, Tifa never even spoke to Cloud as children. The first time they spoke was at the well when she demanded he promise to come and save her. I thought she was completely out of line for asking something like that after ignoring him for so long. Then, after Cloud left, Tifa said she kept wondering how he was and looking in the newspaper to see if there were any articles about him. The truth is, after Cloud left, Tifa kept imagining him becoming a great and powerful SOLDIER, like Sephiroth. She developed feelings for who she thought Cloud was, a dream version of him that never existed. Tifa and Cloud didn't get to know one another until after Cloud joined AVALANCHE, right about the same time as he met Aerith.

And last I remember, it was Cloud who was always running after Aerith, trying to protect her. He sure didn't act like a man who was being imposed upon by "some kid", did he? Ask them for proof of this, because they sure won't be able to find it. :yawn:

Cloud actually recalls his past without Tifa's help. All Tifa does is suggest he remember something regarding her from their childhood. And the only thing he recalls is the fact that he and Tifa never really knew each other that well at all. He recalled a childhood crush that Tifa had never reciprocated, along with feelings of shame and rejection. In fact, Cloud's childhood crush was not even based on a relationship with Tifa at all since he never knew her. Not to mention the fact that a lot can change in seven years, including getting over a baseless crush. Past feelings should not even be considered when discussing current feelings. Expecting Cloud to retain his feelings for Tifa is like expecting a boy in the 6th grade who is very unpopular and has a crush on the most popular girl in school (who snubs him) to still retain those feelings for her when he is in college and hasn't seen her or spoken to her for 7 years. It is absurd.

Also, after recalling the "secret wish", Cloud shows Tifa the events that led up to her fall from Mt. Nibelheim. IMO, Cloud's secret wish was to be noticed and admired by others for his strength, instead of being ridiculed for endangering the town pet, Tifa, and being viewed as weak for being unable to protect her.

And, as for the motherly feelings, Tifa felt motherly toward Cloud in CoT and I can dig that quote up if you want to shove it down their throats. PHAILED. :lmao:

Um, no, the fact that Cloud continued to search for a way to be with Aerith even after she died proves that he loved her. "I think I can meet her... there..." sure as hell wasn't about Tifa, people. Cloud was also shown to be searching for Aerith in FFT and KH.

Tifa helped raise Marlene, but I thought she was pretty useless in AC. She couldn't protect Marlene from Loz and got her ass completely handed to her. So, it is more than a theory, it is fact.

Ask this freak where their CloTi "proof" is and then bring it back here. I will shred it for you. :devil:

As for ClAeris proof from FFVII... you should really visit Destiny Fulfilled, but I will throw a few ideas out. There are so many points to bring up, I am sure I won't get them all.

1. The Amano artwork. Cloud and Aerith appear together in official artwork by Yoshitaka Amano. Some people try to argue this point by saying that Amano had "nothing to do with FFVII", which is completely untrue. Amano was the character designer for all of the Final Fantasy games until Tetsuya Nomura took over for FFVII. Amano still did much of the visual design for FFVII and much of the artwork, even though Nomura's was also used. So, yes, he was involved in FFVII and his artwork is considered official. This should be obvious when looking at Amano's designs for the characters of FFVII. Many of the FFVII characters resemble the original Amano designs. Amano's artwork is still considered appropriate and significant today, as it is displayed with all of the official FF artwork, right alongside that of Nomura. In fact, the cover of the FFVII Original Soundtrack is Amano artwork of Cloud with Aerith. The OST was released after FFVII. So, why use this artwork on the OST if it is not appropriate? Simple. Amano's artwork portrays exactly what was intended-- CloudxAerith.

Over the years, Amano has done art for the other FF games, even when he was not character designer. He has artwork of other official pairings-- Squall and Rinoa, Zidane and Garnet, Tidus and Yuna, and Shuyin and Lenne. And yet he never drew Cloud with Tifa. Gee-- I wonder why?

Amano only draws canon couples. Do you see any drawings by him of SquallxQuistis, AuronxLulu, or CloudxTifa? No. Amano will also draw the antagonist and protagonist (villain and heroine) together, portraying light and dark. Some examples of Amano art with the villain and heroine together are his art of Seymour with Yuna and his art of Sephiroth with Aerith. Some people claim that Amano's art of Sephiroth with Aerith is romantic. I am sorry to burst your bubble, but since when do romantic couples threaten each other? That's right... In one of the pictures of Sephiroth with Aerith, Sephiroth is holding his sword to Aerith's throat. Yeah, watch out for the romance there, buddy... :lmao: Amano will also draw friends together, as he drew Cloud with Red XIII. However, do you once see Amano portraying Cloud with Tifa? No. And Amano was quite aware of the changes to the storyline, including the death of Aerith and the addition of Tifa (added late in the game). However, he still did not draw Cloud and Tifa together. Tifa is portrayed alone in Amano's works, as she was in the game, and as she is in Advent Children. So, my question for you CloTis is: If Amano's art is considered canon for all of the other Final Fantasy games, then why would you claim that his art of Cloud and Aerith is not considered canon???

2. Cloud and Aerith have appeared in many more subsequent games together and had meaningful interactions in them. Among those games are: FFT, KH, KH:CoM, ISS, and KH2. If you want examples of ClAeris proof from each game, just ask. :cleris: Also, Cloud and Aerith have been alluded-to in many other games: FFVIII, FFIX, PE, and PE2. Cloud and Tifa, on the other hand beat the hell out of each other in Ergheiz. Tifa also appeared in ISS, but she and Cloud were never portrayed together in the only cutscene in the game. Cloud was shown with Aerith. :whistle: And, now, Tifa is in KH2, where she runs after Cloud while he, just as quickly, runs away from her. :lmao: And the CloTi proof is where...??? Looks to me like all of the spin-offs show ClAeris, because that is what was intended. Since when has Tidus been paired up with Rikku or Lulu in a spin-off? Since when has Squall been paired up with Selphie or Quistis in a spin-off? Parallel worlds show parallel storylines-- it is that simple.

3. This will really piss them off... :devil: Since FFVII was made in Japan, it contains Japanese symbolism, not to mention Japanese cultural influence. Some CloTis try to refute the obvious, saying that the creators of FFVII would never have allowed so much symbolism into a game which would be released outside of Japan, because others would not "get it". However, what they do not realize is that ALL of the previous Final Fantasy games contained Japanese symbolism, but were "dumbed-down" for American audiences. Want to know more? Go here and read this paper written by a Stanford student. In this paper, it states:

"In the early days of console-based RPGs, there was a general misconception that American players were not sophisticated enough to play complicated RPGs, preferring instead to play 'simpler' fighting or platform games."

The paper goes on to say that when Nintendo released Final Fantasy IV in America (as Final Fantasy II, because it was only the second FF game to make it to a US release) it was a "dumbed-down" version to make it "easier" for American players. Squaresoft also considered American players to be "simpler" and released Final Fantasy Mystic Quest in 1992. The game was so simplified that it angered US players, and the game flopped. To add insult to injury, FFMQ was later released in Japan as Final Fantasy USA, which made even more US players furious, as it perpetuated the "dumb American" stereotype in Japan. Final Fantasy V never made it to America, and some speculate that this is due to its creators believing it was too complex for American gamers. Final Fantasy VII was, in fact, the very first FF game to be released in the US completely uncut. While the translation of FFVII was utterly butchered, the symbolism remained intact.

Whew! Okay, now that we have established that FFVII does contain elements of Japanese cultural influence and symbolism, let us talk about what the symbolism shows. It is quite simple, when you are referring to the "love triangle". All of the symbolism in the game points toward Cloud and Aerith being the true couple of the game. Want to know more? Go here. This site is very impressive. Everything on it is backed up with loads of research. It shows that Cloud and Aerith were the couple in the game, while Tifa was meant to be portrayed as a tragic character. For example, just look at the colors each woman wore. Aerith wore red, the color of love in Japan. Tifa wore black and white, which are symbols of mourning and misfortune in Japan. Another example is that of Aerith's ribbon. Soul mates are portrayed in Japan as being connected by a ribbon or string. This is backed up when we realize that Cloud and Aerith are connected on a deeper level (Cloud speaks with Aerith in his dreams, Cloud can sense Aerith's presence, etc...). These examples are just barely scratching the surface of the symbolism involved in FFVII. Go to the link above to read more!

4. Before the release of FFVII, a commercial for it was aired on TV. In this commercial, it showed Cloud laying Aerith into the water, with the word "love" superimposed above it. The narrator then stated, "...a story of a love that could never be..." This statement clearly spoke of a romantic love between two people and the tragedy that would separate them. In fact, this definition of the statement "a love that could never be" is supported by two experts at AllExperts.com. You can see their answers here and here. Why would Square portray Cloud and Aerith as the intended couple of the game in this commercial if they were not? Some people, people without a hint of common sense, like to say that this commercial was not made by Square and, therefore, it is not official. How idiotic! Whoever made it was hired by Square, right? And, so they would have been given information regarding FFVII, like who was the hero, who was the villain, and who loved who, right? Do you honestly think Square would have allowed a commercial to be released if it portrayed something false??? That line was even used in the official FFVII tagline, according to IMDb: "The story of a love that can never be, and a hate that always was". Oh, and BTW, Tifa was shown in the commercial, too. She was shown, alone, at the end, with the narrator saying, "...will never come to a theater near you..." So, she was portrayed as she was meant to be-- alone.

Okay... This post is long enough, I think. Someone else take over for awhile. :lol:

You could have at least left a couple of the quotes open for the rest of us to answer. T_T

Anyway, since all the quotes have already been answered I'll just branch off of a small seciton.

Cloud and Tifa's childhood.

I really don't see how ANYONE in thier right mind can call them childhood friends(Including Tifa) when they didn't even talk to each other untilt he scene at the well. Yes, Cloud had a crush on her but she completely ignored him. She asked all the guys in the village to come with her to the reactor to save her mom EXCEPT for Cloud. But who was the only guy to follow her? Cloud. Now, even though Cloud was in the right, he still gets punished because of it when Tifa fell into a coma. Did Tifa ever thank Cloud or even tell the people of the village that it wasn't his fault? No. And by this time I would have thought Cloud would have hated Tifa. But he didn't, he STILL asked her out to the well as a last resort. And look at her body language the ENTIRE TIME right before Cloud mentions that he'd become a great SOLDIER like Sephiroth. She seems completely uninterested, swinging her legs and such. She even admits that she never really thoguht about Cloud until he left Nibelhiem.

Tifa is just an exteremly shallow girl that doens't even know what she wants. And I think somewhere along the line Cloud realised this and his crush on her ended. At the most thier only going to be comrades. Thats all it will ever be.

I would go onto a little bit about Aeris and Cloud but I have no time. Got work.

Bye. =)

Well, let's say he should move on. he should probably put the painful past behind him, right? Like say ohh... childhood crushes that never loved him, people that lied to him, old friends that he let down when they needed him most, anything tied to his traumatic childhood, unhealthy relationships, ... oh. That would mean Tifa, wouldn't it?

lol didn't leave any room for us to answer :P, well FF_G just summed up everything, can't really explain anymore then that, it's enough to put pwned look on there face :lmao:

Nicely done FF_G :gift:

The Aerith-bashing and Cleris insults are not sitting well with me today, so forgive me if this seems more rantish than a calm, logical response. I'll try to offer something of value, though. XD

Hmm. I am just another weirdo Clerith, who for god knows what reason supports this pairing, so I couldn't possibly be interpretating Cloud and Tifa's childhood accurately, could I? But let's see what Tifa thinks of that, shall we? Surely she'll lend some unbiased insight into the good ol' days!

Oh my. Could it be that Tifa is actually saying, of her own accord, that she and Cloud were not close when they were young?

Yes, I do believe she is.

Oh, I don't know... Perhaps it's because this half of the world saw potential in the couple? Saw hints of a romantic relationship for this couple? But of course, YOU are right and half the world is wrong. There's nothing going for this couple except a bunch of delirious, pink-worshipping fans!

As for useless. Sweetie, Cloud and Tifa wouldn't even be alive to let you entertain the possibility of them getting together in the future (because three years of living together and NOT doing so is obviously a sign of a wonderful, healthy, romantic relationship) if it wasn't for Aerith.

Just because Aerith wears pink and has the tendency to be more optimistic than the rest of her solemn group, doesn't make her a kid. That's how you view Aerith, but I've not seen any quotes or actions from Cloud that indicates he thinks of her that way.

If we're throwing around shallow interpretations of the girls' characters, I'd like to say that Cloud also thought of Tifa as a clingy, weak-willed young woman who kept hinting something about liking him yet would never actually say anything about it and how such a habit annoys him to no end.

Quote? As proof? Come now, we don't need such silly things.

And that signifies what in terms of their romantic relationship? Of course Tifa was the only one who could help Cloud remember his true memories. She was the only one there at the time!

Did she reawaken memories of true love? CAN such feelings suddenly materialise just from recovering a bunch of old (and mostly unhappy) memories? That is a big stretch even if you assume that Cloud kinda-sorta loved Tifa before the Lifestream Event.

(Because he was in his Zack Mode before Tifa Showed Him The Light, and anything he said then is immediately rejected because he was Zloud... or does that only apply to any affection he might have shown Aerith?

Going that route, it's only logical to assume that whatever affection Cloud may have shown Tifa pre-Lifestream Event was a result of his Zloudness, and that he entered the Lifestream with an absolutely clean slate and no romantic notions for Tifa whatsoever.)

Either way, it doesn't work in your advantage. Because it is the equivalent of saying that Cloud can flip a mental switch in his head and suddenly love someone with all his heart and soul.

He has a funny way of showing said love, though. Not reciprocating Tifa's feelings in the Highwind and all that.

This is just asking for Tifa's CoT "motherly feelings" quote to be thrown in.

Of course! Heaven forbid the large, overbearing gallumph even step near the lovely Tifa-- even if he's shown many signs of being the one who really understands Tifa, and not Cloud; even though he's shown to support her when she's down, but not baby her when she was a wreck after Cloud went missing; even though he's holds the Seventh Heaven family unit as close to his heart as Tifa does, with Cloud not showing anything near the same amount of enthusiasm.

No, Barret doesn't fulfill the "bishounen" requirement. That makes her way outta your league, you foo'!

*licks hikari44*

Hmm. Tastes bitter.

Not true. Cloud and Tifa never became friends.

Sora and Kairi are happy close childhood friends. Guy's mistaking another pair.

It's like saying "insert one of the Twilight Town kids" is a close childhood friend of Roxas.

Useless? Dude, you have GOT to play FFVII, watch AC and read the novellas because that's ignorance talking. Aerith is not useless whatsoever. And when did she throw herself at Cloud? Last I look, Cloud doesn't mind Aerith's attentions to him. Why should you?

Hehe. Tifa feels like a mother to Cloud. Happy now?

And I spring out my sister's Rule #1 of Shipping:


The Hoshigaki Principle. Ugly? You get no love. Basically, if you are an ugly character, even if you are really interesting character-wise, fans will forget to ship you (if they ship you at all), until in a very later time. You're still no match for all the Kakashi/Iruka ships out there, in any case.

Yeah, Barret isn't a bishie. He doesn't deserve Tifa. Never mind Barret stayed to take care of Tifa for a week in Junon. But when Tifa took care of Cloud in Mideel = OMG! TRUE LOVE!!!

I'll just laugh. Many, many times.

But hey, maybe it's not so far-fetched. Tifa and Barret identified themselves as Marlene's parents after all, so yo!

Did she? All she ever did was helping Cloud figure out his role in Nibelheim. Strange that "feeling" of his didn't seem to strengthen in the Highwind scene, or CoT, or AC.

In fact, if Cloud realized he loved Tifa all this time, how come he hasn't married her yet after FF7? DoC also shows they haven't done anything like that either.

Not true. I'm a Yuffie Kisaragi fangirl more, SHE is my first priority in FF7. And I liked Cloud and Aerith next.

Oh, BTW, Tifa wasn't in the original FF7 script. That's the original game. It was supposed to be run by Cloud, Aerith and Barret.

Nice job, everyone, and great arguments! :cleris: Everyone's already said everything I would say in response to these people.

One question: what forum is this taking place on? :unsure: I'm curious because we have a Love Triangle debate forum, and there's only two Cloti's against a ton of Cleris people. We'd love to have more Cloti's join the debate forum, so let Koji and Hikari44 know about it! Our debate forum can be found here: The Northern Crater

Eh, it's Kingdom Hearts Insider. I'll let them know where to debate next time. Who debates about Cleris vs CloTi on a KH site? <_< But that site is infested with CloTi so I don't know, thanks for the help everyone ^-^ I feel more than ready to burn them with my pink clerith love =D.

man all those things the cloti's say
kinda makes you wonder if they actually played the game! :cleris:

Yes, sometimes I just wonder that too. :whistle: But CloTis will be CloTis right? :cleris: <3.

Wooh awesome job everyone..especially FFG :fangirl: such detailed reply!!!

My turn (and you can tell i'm a lazy arse)

1) not happy and close childhood friends
2) useless white mage? why of course, everyone would live a happier life if not for aerith's sacrifice :o

He should, in koji's humble opinion, but he does not have to. and as far as I've seen, he didn't move on with another lady. Move on from his guilt and angst, yes.

Yes, not everyone gets the equal chance to love and to be loved. Such is the cruel world of FF *sigh*

1) Koji needs to read MoTS again.
2) Aerith AND Tifa's motherly feelings <3

Ooooh touche ...but erm not helping Cloti's case in a single bit.. :unsure:

Amano arts... Tifa's original non-existence in the game..."A love that was never meant to be"... 'nuff said. :cloud:

There was nothing mutal about that promise. It consisted soley of Tifa going, "If you're famous and I'm in trouble, you'll help me out right?"

Obviously this person has enver actually played the game. Tifa herself says that they weren't freinds or even close.

Let's compare their treatment of Cloud.
Tifa knows Cloud for years. Basically her response to him is, "Well, if you ever get famous, you'll help me out, right?"
Aeris has just met Cloud. Her response is, "You're a mercenary? Well gee, you're kinda cute. Tell you what, if you help me out, I'll go out with you."

Elena doesn't get the chance with Tseng. Tseng doesn't get the chance with Aeris. Reno doesn't get the chance with Elena. Rude doesn't get the chance with Tifa. Vincent doesn't get the chance with Lucretia. Aeris and Cloud don't really get the chance. Yuffie doesn't get the chance with Cloud. Don Conrneo doesn'tge the chance with anybody.

See a pattern here?

Except he wasn't. He was ready to walk out on AVALANCHE, a group that was directly oposing the Shinra and had already gotten in a few good swipes at them. Tifa had to beg him and Barret had to give him Marlene's school money.

I think it's safe to say Cloud wasn't that intrested in revenge at first.

Nor does it indicate anything about Cloud and Tifa except they have crushes on people they don't even really know.

Nope, it was a one-sided promise. It wasn't Tifa saying she'd help Cloud when he needed her, it was solely Tifa wanting Cloud to help her when she was in a bind. And nope, they were not happy and close childhood friends. Cloud was not happy - he was always wanting to be noticed by others, who ignored him. Tifa herself says that she didn't know Cloud that well even though they were neighbours. So how can they have been so close if she didn't know him very well?

At the beginning of the game Cloud and Tifa had no stronger bond than Cloud and Aerith. She did not 'throw herself' at Cloud at all. If you consider asking someone for a date 'throwing yourself' at them then you need to get out of the 1940's, yo.

AC has shown that death is no obstacle for Cloud and Aerith, they can still see each other, and Calling says to me that Cloud can now see Aerith any time he wants. Also, just because you want him to move on doesn't mean that Cloud thinks he should, or that he even wants to.

We all know that Tifa loves Cloud. That's not what it's about though, it's about who Cloud loves. And he wasn't focused on revenge against Shinra for Zack. He didn't even remember Zack until after the Lifestream Scene. Cloud didn't care about Shinra or the planet until he met Aerith. Tifa had just as much chance as Aerith did.

Cloud didn't regain his true feelings, he regained his true memories. There's a difference. And like FF_G said, the 'secret wish' could refer to him wishing that everyone would notice him, Tifa most of all, not some wish that Tifa would let him jump her bones.
Motherly feelings? See also CoT, ahem. But everyone else has said that already. ;)

No, not because she's pretty and he was sad when she died. He wasn't just sad, he was heartbroken. She heard his heart cry out for her. She didn't hear anyone else's heart cry out for her in the same way, only Cloud's. I think that says a lot.

Yes, and many CloTis like Tifa more than Aerith. Tifa has a huge fanbase, possibly even larger than Aerith's. So I highly doubt that they chose to have Cloud and Aerith in spinoff games for the sole reason of SE thinking Aerith had more fans than Tifa. The original game does not clearly indicate love between either couple. If it did, then there wouldn't be a love triangle, now would there?

Eick another one

O.o It looks like someone can't watch their tongue. <_<

Oh dear. Someone needs to calm down with the language. Srsly, it's liek onli a debatez0r.

Okay, Momo, here's some more help from me. ^_^

Aerith's death means nothing. AC and MotP have shown that death doesn't mean that Aerith is no longer around.

Back in Nibelheim, Cloud had a crush on Tifa. Yes, he wanted to be noticed. But that was in the past. It was seven years ago. Things change. Also, Cloud didn't just want Tifa to notice him. He says in the Lifestream scene 'everyone would... then even Tifa would have to notice me'. Even Tifa, not just Tifa.

He singles Tifa out? He also singles Aerith out.

"Hey, I'm your bodyguard, right?"
"But I'm... we're here for you."
"No, Aerith! I can't have you get involved."
"Aerith, I got you mixed up in all of this."

There are three versions of the Highwind Scene where Cloud says he heard Tifa's voice. In the Low Affection version he says 'so then it was Tifa's voice'. He wasn't sure who was calling him, so it could be that he heard Aerith's voice calling him but just couldn't recognise the voice due to his mako poisoning. MotP has shown that Aerith tried to comfort Cloud after her death but her voice couldn't reach him because their worlds were seperate. It looks like after FFVII and before AC, Aerith found a way to trascend those borders and commnunicate with Cloud, but before then she couldn't. The fact that he couldn't hear her says nothing about his feelings for her, or lack thereof.

Cloud dresses up as a woman also because he didn't want Aerith going in there alone to be harrassed and molested. ;)
Cloud did forget their promise. Tifa had to remind him of it.
Tifa hugs Cloud as they leave the Lifestream. It doesn't say whether he hugs her back. The only other time Tifa hugs Cloud is when they're hanging off the cliff in the ending, but she lets go of him when they get to safety. We don't see her hug him in AC at all. Cloud grabs her hand to stop her falling to her death. When else does he hold her hand? He also holds Aerith's hand in AC, but I guess this doesn't mean anything, hmm?
Blame has nothing to do with the love triangle. Aerith says she never laid any blame on Cloud. Is this a romantic hint? No.
Tifa says that she thought about Cloud a lot and looked in the papers to see if he was mentioned. She says nothing about her romantic feelings, just that she thought about him - this is what Cloud wanted; to be noticed, so of course he'd be happy.
We don't know that this means his feelings for Tifa. We see from the Lifestream Scene that Cloud wished that one day he'd be invited in. That's more likely to be the wish he's talking about, since we learn this was what he wanted after Young Cloud says that line about his secret wish.
Cloud stays with Tifa because neither of them have anywhere to go, and we already know that they didn't make love that night because they're not in a romantic relationship in CoT, AC, or DoC. So either it was a one night stand or it never happened.
Cloud making Tifa feel better says nothing about his romantic feelings. He's her friend, of course he wouldn't want her feeling sad. And why would Tifa feel lonely without everyone else if she and Cloud were so in love? Wouldn't she welcome the opportunity to spend more time alone with him?

The fact that Cloud's guilt over Aerith outweighs his 'happiness' with Tifa and the family shows what an effect her death had on him. Also, he could have gone anywhere in the world. He chose Aerith's church, the place they first introduced themselves, the place she loved, the place he most likely feels closest to her. It doesn't say that he left to protect those he 'loves' it says 'to protect those closest to him'. Nomura also says that the quiet life doesn't suit Cloud, and that it makes him anxious. This is the life Tifa is offering him.

Aerith is the one who motivates Cloud to take sword in hand. Every time he seems to be faltering, Aerith is there to help.
Cloud says he wants to start a new life at the beginning of CoT, which is also when he tells Tifa that he'll help her remember and blushes around her. So then why, three years later in DoC, is he not romantically involved with her? In CoT their relationship became strained, even before the Geostigma. Tifa had to force herself to talk to Cloud for Marlene's sake, Marlene commented to Barret that things weren't good between them, Tifa was always disappointed in Cloud because he wouldn't take time off work to spend with her and Marlene, she recognised that visiting the Forgotten City would 'tear his heart', she asked Cloud while he was sleeping if he loved her, something that she wouldn't have needed to ask if they were lovers, and they had seperate bedrooms. Sounds romantic, doesn't it?

Japanese culture has a lot to do with FFVII, because IT WAS MADE BY JAPANESE PEOPLE. Whether they intended it or not, some aspects of their culture were bound to creep into FFVII, and other FF games, just like aspects of our culture creep into our TV programmes and films.

Zidane x Garnet and other FF couples were obvious. They had Amano art depicting them together (ho-hum), Squall and Rinoa kissed, Zidane and Garnet had a big reunion FMV at the end where they embraced each other and their feelings were clear before then. Tidus and Yuna had a whole FMV and J-Pop song to accompany their kiss. Not exactly subtle.

Cloud and Tifa are never shown in an FMV to hug, apart from in the ending FMV where Tifa is holding onto Cloud - if she didn't she'd fall so I hardly think it qualifies as romantic.
Cloud and Aerith also hold hands.
They live together... with Barret (when he's not digging for oil) and his daughter
They raise kids together, but so did Tifa and Barret and that pairing's yucky!!111
They are seen as the mother and father of the orphans. Denzel had his own mother and father who he loved. He calls Tifa by her name, not as 'mother' and Cloud as 'Cloud', not 'dad'. Marlene has her own father - Barret.
Cloud blushes around Tifa on one occasion only. This is at the beginning of CoT when Cloud seems to be positive. As we see in CoT, this changes drastically.
Cloud promises to always be together No, he says 'you've always been with me'. He doesn't say 'I promise we'll always be together'.
Cloud tells her he'll remind her of the times when she was cheerful, as anyone would do if their best friend was feeling down.
Cloud and Tifa have pictures together, one where he's turned slightly away and detached from the family, and one where all of AVALANCHE is there too. Cloud also has pictures of the flowerfield...
Quote about Tifa being the main motivator, please? Cloud tried to send Reno and Rude to rescue the kids instead of him because he was afraid he wouldn't succeed. Aerith appeared to him and told him she didn't blame him, and immediately afterwards he began to fight again and feel 'lighter'
Tifa is the one who knows him best Its even stated by SE themselves... But does Cloud really know Tifa? He says in CoT that she's not the type to dwell on things, but Barret says that if they're not busy, she'll dwell on things. Who's right? Barret.
AC started with Cloud and Tifa, not Cloud and Aeris - if you're referring to the 20 min drama, Nomura said that it was expanded upon to create AC. So everything in that drama was shown in AC. And it could have been Cloud and Tifa, and Cloud's guilt over Aerith. Just because she wasn't in it, doesn't mean she wasn't mentioned.
Aerith's presence is felt through the entire film. Just because she doesn't have as much screentime, doesn't mean that the audience doesn't think of her - there are so many locations associated with her, there's Marlene's ribbon, the group's ribbons, the Lifestream...
Cloud calls Aerith 'mother' because her hand on his forehead is comforting, and her presence is comforting to him. Nomura himself said that. And its up to interpretation whether he acts like a shy boyfriend around Tifa. I don't think he does. I think he acts like a friend or brother, but that's me.
Cloud leaves to protect Tifa and his family - and goes to live in the place he feels closest to Aerith.
But Cloud returns only to protect his family. Nope, he also returns because he has issues to resolve with Sephiroth. He returns to protect everything, not just his family.
Cloud never leaves to search for Aeris, he shacks it up with Tifa instead, and CoT showed us that their relationship was strained and Tifa had to force herself to talk to Cloud until Denzel, the child Cloud thought Aerith led to him, came into the picture.
He returns to her in the end, as shown at the very end of AC and is last seen outside 7th HeavenHe returns to EVERYONE. Not just his family, but his friends as well. And he felt alone with them until Aerith showed him he wasn't. And the photo? Also shows everyone, not just Cloud and Tifa. Cloud is also seen riding his bike around the world, and Aerith is shown in the flowerfield like she's waiting for someone. At the very end, yellow flowers from that same field are on Cloud's desk. Why not show Cloud embracing Tifa in the ending? Why have only Cloud and Aerith in the Calling video?
DC confirms they are STILL together... but what's the nature of their relationship? We never see them acting like a couple, only the same as they acted in AC, as good friends.
Tifa rides his bike with great ease. Which proves what, exactly?
Tifa wears his ring and it's emphasized in the movie.[/COLOR] Barret also wears the same ring.
Cloud and Tifa are together on every promotional piece out there...BUYA!!![/COLOR] Aerith and Cloud are together in Amano artwork, on the front of the FFVII ost, on the front of Final Fantasy S Generation CD, along with Squall and Rinoa on the packaging of the Coca-Cola figures, on the cold cast statue of her death scene, in Itadaki Street Special's opening FMV, in Kingdom Hearts, in Final Fantasy Tactics, and mentioned in Parasite Eve II.

Tifa's appearance in KH2 doesn't crush the Aerith=light theory. KH2 focuses on the light inside Cloud, his inner strength. Tifa offers to give Cloud her own light, her own strength, to help him beat Sephiroth. This does not change the fact that Cloud was searching for his light in KH and found Aerith. He called Sephiroth his 'darkness', so his light has to be a person too. The light mentioned in KH2 does not have to be the same thing. Cloud also promises Aerith that he'll return to Hollow Bastion, and to her. Aerith says that if he finds his light inside then he'll be able to return to where he should be. So Hollow Bastion is where he should be. Aerith says she'll support him from there, and seems to believe in Cloud's inner light. Tifa is shown chasing Cloud, who is chasing Sephiroth. Cloud is never shown looking for Tifa, and he doesn't seem to think that he should take her light. The light comes from inside Cloud in the end. And in fact, he leaves to follow Sephiroth and Tifa is left behind to fight Heartless by herself.

Aerith and Tifa both met the real Cloud at the same time, going by MotP. And in MotP, Cloud is heartbroken at Aerith's death, and Aerith is surprised that his feelings were so strong. Aerith says she loves Cloud more than Zack, and she also says that she wanted to stay by his side forever. Aerith rejects Zack and tells him that his problem is that he's not more like Cloud. Aerith does not give up Cloud to Tifa. She trusts Tifa to take care of him, because she can't, and she's a little jealous that she can't be the one to take care of Cloud. After she finds out about the real Cloud she immediately tells Zack that his problem is that he's not like Cloud, and is happy she got to see the real Cloud. She doesn't fall out of love with him when she sees the real him at all. As for the hug, Tifa is the one who embraces Cloud, not the other way around. We don't learn whether he hugs back, just that Tifa embraces him tightly. As friends do. ;)

I'll let someone else take over. I don't participate much in debates these days. :lol:

This is all old Cloti arguments that have been taken apart so many times already at ACF. Momo, you should let these Clotis know where to debate. Show 'em the Northern Crater. Invite them over...we'll be more than happy to discuss these things with them.

So this is supposedly a quote from the Ultimania or what? The link didn't take me anywhere...

Cloud always wanted to be noticed by everyone, including Tifa...not just Tifa. Whether Cloud longed for Tifa's love or not as a child was NEVER stated. That's an interpretation, not a fact. A child following a group of children into the mountains does not automatically equate to love or even a crush. It could have been curiosity or a child wanting to "fit in"...as "fitting in" was Cloud's problem, not romance. Cloud constantly singles Tifa out...yes...but it's fact that Tifa was the most popular child in Town. It's fact that Tifa fell off the bridge, that she was the reasoning behind all the shunning Cloud received as a child.

"No matter what anyone else says, it's only your attitude that counts."
Kept in context, Cloud was telling Tifa that no matter what anyone else (Sephiroth) was saying about his past, Tifa's words were the only words that mattered to him. Why shouldn't her words matter? SHE was there in his past, the only one. If not her, who else could Cloud listen to?

"You've been so good to me."
How on earth does this support Cloti? Friends are allowed to make such comments. Is Cloud obligated to love someone just because she's been so good to him? Hardly.

"yeah, I heard you calling me..." (And yet he couldn't hear his lost love in the lifestream? OH No!)

MoTP implies that Aerith had a part in the Lifestream Sequence. I seriously doubt Tifa could have found Cloud on her own. True, Tifa had the correct memories because she'd been there in Cloud's past. However, the one who "guided" Tifa's voice to Cloud was Aerith. :P

Cloud dressed up as a woman because he didn't want Aerith to have to go in alone to check up on Tifa. It was actually Aerith's idea to go after Tifa in the first place, not Cloud's. It was Aerith's idea for Cloud to go into the mansion with her: "you want to come in with me?"
It was also Aerith's idea that Cloud dress up as a woman SO THAT he could go in. :whistle:

Ask for quotes. I don't recall Cloud bringing up the promise several times and wanting to keep it until the very end.

Which scene are they referring to? Ask for the specific scene. Cloud hugs Aerith, holds her body, cries over her...and so?

He was staring into Tifa's window at all the children playing. He STATES he'd "wanted to play with them all". The memories are tender memories that no one can ever know because they're painful memories of being "alone" as a child...not romantic memories. His secret wish? He'd wanted to be noticed, to be admired, to be liked, to "fit in".

Cloud had no reason to leave. He already knew his reason for fighting, and the others left because they needed to go find theirs. TIFA stayed on the airship, telling us that other than for Cloud, she had no real reason for fighting. It was a scene meant to tell us about Tifa, not Cloud.

...and spending the night together in which Tifa "attempts" to tell Cloud about her feelings and where Cloud doesn't reciprocate those feelings proves nodda concerning Cloti. In fact, CoT states that Cloud is a friend of Tifa's who she now considers family. What romantic love are these people talking about?

Cloud ran away from everyone, except Aerith. Cloud didn't have to go to Aerith's Church, did he? However, he chose to move into the Church. While he distanced himself from everyone, Aerith was an exception. She's always been special like that with Cloud... :giggle:

I'll leave the rest for the others. Feel free to rip this garbage apart.

Holy crud. Those are really old.

As for the promise. It was confirmed in Tifa's diary that other children called Tifa out in the well. Cloud was not a sepcial exception. Tifa also replied "He said something about SOLDIER?" as though she didn't hear Cloud properly enough. Lovely scene, the Promise thing.

Dude, Cloud fell apart crushed and held Aerith close to him when she died. Your point?

AC also shows special attention to Cloud and Aerith holding hands. So...

Hahahahaha!!! Ah, high score Tifa affection. How biased.

If it was low, Cloud didn't know it was Tifa "I thought I heard someone too. So, that was Tifa's voice." at all.

That... is so weird. If you watch AC with that thing in consideration. It. makes.no.friggin.sense.

I don't understand "he puts himself in danger" thing. From what? With whom? Kadaj's gang appeared recently, based from Cloud's ignorance on their existence. Geostigma isn't contagious. ShinRa can't harm them now because they're not as powerful as they used to be. Sephiroth is accounted for.

At the start of the movie, Cloud wants to waste away in his sickness. That doesn't sound like "wants to protect his friends from something" to me.

I'd understand if Cloud morphs into Chaos and goes nuts and kills everyone, but that was Vincent.

There were no parts of Cloud that was Zack. he didn't pretend to be Zack. He didn't act like Zack. he had a few of the same manerisms and dressed the same. that's it. Aeris says that it bothered her that he was similar to Zack. You'll notice that Cloud doesn't act cheerful and happy all the time like Zack did. yet somehow Aeris still likes him. She says that he's over Zack, and when Cloud says that he might now him, Aeris blows him off. In fact, Aeris thinks the Turks want her for SOLDIER at the begining. it's obvious that if she really wanted to know were Zack was or what happened to him, she had several chances to find out more. She doesn't.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but Aeris never referred to Zack as being her "hero." Tifa is the one who wanted the big strong SOLDIER to look after her.

Final Fantasy tactics was released about the same time as FF7. Cloud was there. Aeris was there. Sephiroth was mentioned. No Tifa. Not even a reference to her.

You can find it translated on Vilaeth's Ultimania site: http://www.modea7.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ult...oud_record.html.

I'm going to try tackling this age-old "Teefa knowz teh r3al Clod not Aeristh!!!" argument from another angle:

What in the world makes them think that Tifa knew the real Cloud before the Lifestream Event? Remember that what clued Tifa in to Cloud's condition was the incorrect memories he had, not his behaviour.

Cloud's personality was a hint to AERITH that something was wrong, because parts of his gestures and style resembled Zack's. Cloud's messed-up memories were a hint to TIFA that something was wrong, because he knew things he shouldn't have.

I don't remember any point in the game where Tifa was suspicious because of his personality. So if they wish to pursue this argument, wouldn't it mean that Tifa and Aerith BOTH learned of "the real Cloud" after the Lifestream event, and they were BOTH loving a lie before that?

Tifa could hardly remember their childhood together (needing to be prodded by an entire illusion in the Lifestream before she recalled anything about Cloud), so don't expect me to believe she knew or remembered "the real Cloud", a boy she hardly mixed with, from their childhood.

Who was being criticised for not being more like Cloud? Zack.

Their argument started even before he left Seventh Heaven, actually.

And this wasn't just "an" argument. Tifa had to force herself to speak to Cloud for Marlene's sake; Cloud didn't make any effort to initiate conversation with her, only reacting to her efforts, also for Marlene's sake. In real life, this may be "just another argument". But in fiction, where the severity of the argument is highlighted again and again, it serves as an important point to consider.

The fact that Tifa even had to ASK that points to them not being a couple at that moment, least of all as close-knit as you portray them to be.

Tifa is a girl who NEEDS to be clearly reassured that she is loved (which hardly works for someone like Cloud, who has problems expressing his emotions to begin with). The fact that she STILL had to ask, despite everyone living together and working together, just proves that nothing romantic has occurred between them-- because Tifa is a smart woman and I'm pretty sure she would've known if they had become a couple.

Tifa follows it up with another question:

This shows that Tifa feels she and Marlene aren't enough to make Cloud happy. Why would she feel that if Cloud were happily romantically involved with the supposed love of his life?

Because Tifa wonders, several days later, if that smile had been an illusion. I'm gonna have to go with Tifa's instincts and wonder if it had been an illusion too.

Characters of Cloud's stereotype typically give fake smiles as many times as they frown/scowl/angst. When they do smile in all their sincerity, it's a big thing, and the ending of AC that showed Cloud smiling was The Big Moment.

I didn't see anything here about Cloud continuing to like Tifa as an adult.

Cloud never lays any blame on Aerith, either. I mean, why'd she have to go and run off and get herself killed for? (Bear in mind that Cloud and AVALANCHE have no idea the requirements for summoning Holy).

AVALANCHE spends many nights together, in Tents and Inns. Getting visions of orgy and bestiality now.

Seriously, they spend a night together, yes. Doing what? Not pronouncing their love for each other. They're finally getting some time to know each other as friends, something they never got to do in their childhood. If this is meant to be a sign of Cloti romance canonity, Squaresoft sure messed-up making Cloud's emotions an optional one.

How about the time when Cloud was clutching Aerith's dead body to his chest, distraught and grieving, while his mortal enemy stood right before him?

He had no problem lifting Tifa's body and putting her to one side five years previous in Nibelheim, after all.

Ask when. And then ask why Cloud got an oh-so-special hand-holding scene with Aerith in AC.

They live together WITH BARRET.
They raise kids together WITH BARRET.
TIFA sees Cloud as a father to Marlene and Denzel. She sees herself as a mother to Marlene.

Ask for comments by an outsider, a NPC, who says that Cloud and Tifa appear as mother and father of Marlene and Denzel.

When Tifa was being depressed right after they'd save the world. Cloud also gave tips to Yuffie about handling her airsickness in the game. He's doing what any good friend would do, and trying to cheer her up.

...with two kids tagging along, neither of which are theirs. Their other picture is flanked by the entire AVALANCHE. These are as good as having no romantic pictures together.

FFVII started out between Cloud, Barret and Aerith.

Aerith started out as the childhood friend, except that in her case, she was actually meant to be a friend rather than someone idolised from afar.

DC is Vincent and Yuffie's story. Whoa, teh new canon strikes! Lucrecia who?

Tifa says she's developing "motherly feelings" for Cloud. I suppose that indicates she's thrown aside any romantic notions for Cloud, eh?

And Barret.

DC shows all Cloud, Tifa AND BARRET still together.

Now this is getting ridiculous. What, is the big goofball invisible in your eyes or something? Barret has a ROOM at Seventh Heaven. He lived there with Tifa and Cloud in CoT and AC, and I highly doubt it got turned into a C/T nursery when he went looking for oil.

Everyone rides the Highwind and the Sierra with great ease. Everyone is in love with Cid.

Fenrir may be Cloud's precious possession, but I highly doubt he'd make Tifa WALK to the battle when Bahamut is busy ripping Edge apart. Let's keep this in context, shall we?

And it's unknown if Cloud regularly gives people lifts or not, anyway. He's a delivery man who goes from town to town. Isn't it likely that travellers may ask for a lift on the way? Would Cloud be the kind of guy who'd turn them down in case they dirtied the furnishing? How do you know Tifa is a special case?

Hey... that's a good one!

Scarlet and Heidegger rides a giant robot thingie in FF7. TRUE LOVE!
Zack and Cloud rides together in a bike in Last Order! TRUE LOVE! (though best friend ships this, so ^^;;)
Vincent rides Yuffie's floating bike in great ease at the start of DoC. TRUE LAAAAVE!!!
*er, no offense, Yuffentine fans*

And Marlene, obviously, rides in Fenrir with Cloud when the two of them returned to Edge. With that logic, I must call Cloud a pedophile.

Tifa and Aeris both ride with Barret in that little truck. Meanwhile Cloud is alone on his motorcycle.

That Barret is such a player.

XD, thanks for the help everyone. ^-^ They just got bann0rz by a super mod for over use of swearing and disrespect towards other people who debated.

I just noticed that the CloTi people are really mean compared to the Clerith fans. :cleris: they also enjoy insulting Aerith don't they? >_<

I've seen Cleris fans insulting Tifa a lot-- with jokes about her breast size and other similar examples of such sterling wit-- on GameFAQs, which makes me want to bury my head in shame.

So it goes both ways, really.

Red XIII was also riding the truck.

...

I won't say it. It's a bit too easy, even for me. xD;

Lynn:

Oh, so the translation comes from Vilaeth. Is there official SE translations anywhere? I'd be interested in looking it over. Vilaeth has been doubtful of SE translations before so... :/

EDIT:

Whoa...just wondering, Lynn, but was that a quote from CoT that I missed? Tifa sees herself as mother and she sees Cloud as father? :unsure:

I'm not sure. I doubt it, since as far as I know, none of the Ultimanias have ever been translated into English. I think the best you can do is opt for a second opinion.

From what I've seen, though, Vilaeth's been pretty consistent with his translations. I haven't seen anyone lambast him for making mistakes, anyway. XD

Nothing against Vilaeth, but a few opinions would be better...

I honestly have no idea whether he's consistent or not...probably because there's nothing for me to compare his translations to. He's been doubtful of certain SE translations though...so it's why I was wondering. Guess I just have a thing for official translations. :P

There was something from your post I was wondering about:

Was that stated in CoT? I honestly can't recall Tifa stating that she sees Cloud as father to Marlene and Denzel...

:lol: Understandably. I'm not sure how many other people have the Ultimania, though, so it'll be tough finding other translators. Unless someone is willing to translate and all we need to do is send a scan of a profile in...

I'll dig up the exact quotes later, but in CoT, Tifa says she introduces herself as Marlene's daughter. I think that might be early-to-mid of the story.

Near the end, during the paragraphs where Cloud is spending more time at Seventh Heaven, Tifa comments that Cloud, accompanied by Marlene and Denzel as they look over his delivery routes, reminds her of a father and his two children.

(I'm basing all this from the early translation of CoT, though. For all we know, certain corrections have been made since, but I haven't checked. ^^)

ow its so innoying all the writing :lol:

Oh...so they remind her of a father and his two children. Thanks, Lynn.

Just wondering, because it was also stated in CoT that Denzel sees Cloud as his hero...but I couldn't recall "father" being stated anywhere.

Whoops! Yes, Cloud REMINDS her of a father. :P She introduces herself as Marlene's mother, though.

I'm actually quite curious if this is a normal Japanese custom. If I were an outsider who knew Barret was Marlene's father, I would immediately associate as his wife, someone introducing herself as her mother. Perhaps it's similar to how the word "oneechan"/"oniichan"/etc. can be used on people not related to you in that way?

Yep, the "Cloud = father" thing is from Tifa. I never saw Denzel considering Cloud as a father anywhere, either (it's a bit silly, IMO, since he's only 23... I wouldn't consider someone like that as a father, although I suppose it might be because I'm 20 :P).

Hero-worship sounds more likely. Big brother sounds very likely. Father? Er...

Well, tif, I typically prefer those sort of posts to short, badly-written, badly-spelled posts (although short itself is fine, if it delivers the intended message).

We Cleris tend to ramble (and I tend to ramble nonsensically), but at least we ramble with a point. :lol:

So much word, Lynn. It's great to keep things short and sweet if possible, but it's also great if a post's thought provoking with several well reasoned points to consider.

The quotes:

Source: The FFVII Collection

I think one of the things that annoys me most is if people tell me to "shorten" something just because it's being posted on a message board. >.< I keep my posts as short as I can (...yeah, I know, the length doesn't really say so, but...), but I'm not gonna butcher my points just to keep it short.