I know, I'm slow, but I just realized...the cetra race is extinct when Aerith died....Well, I always thought that Aerith returned in the end; her "i'll be back when its all over", Tifa's "she always looked to the future", Cloud's "I think I can meet her there" and Tifa's "yes, let us meet her", etc..Cetras were vital that they could hear the planet when they were suffering and all that. I guess now that Aerith was in the lifestream she can 'control' things from there...

Meeh! Another reason why FFVIIAC was a bad idea! Though Nomura didn't want to contradict people's opinions, the movie itself just made the game loose a lot of debate! Especially the 'did humans die at the end' one...that is unless we disregard FFVIIAC as a fact of what happens and just regard it as fanservice (as I do with FFX-2 and Chrono Cross....>_>). I will still believe that Aerith does come back at the end of the game, or at least Cloud does meet her at the end of the game, rather than 2 years after.

So what do you guys think? Is the planet doom without the Cetra race? Or maybe you think Aerith does come back too (yes, i know I'm alone on this :P) or do you think FFVIIAC as the true sequel of the game?

Humans are the same as the Cetra, but with different perceptions, so as long as there are humans that care for the Planet, there's no problem.

I'll be simple and straight with my answer: NO.

I don't think you're alone in thinking that Aerith returned at the end of FFVII. Many other people believed that, too. I was never one to believe that Aerith returned at the end of FFVII, so Aerith not returning wasn't a big shock to me. However, from what we've seen in AC and in Aerith's novella so far, it seems that Aerith is always present in spirit. She doesn't just fade away into the Lifestream. Instead, she remains quite powerful and able to have affect on the physical world. Cloud definitely senses her presence. He's able to see her, he's able to communicate with her, and he's even able to touch her as seen in the hand-reach scene. Aerith is also able to touch Cloud, as seen in the first flower field scene. So Aerith didn't come back in human form, but she is still with Cloud in many ways.

I don't think that AC contradicts the idea that Cloud meets Aerith before AC. He spent a great deal of time by himself. He took pictures of the flower field before AC. He lived in the Church. He thought that Aerith brought Denzel to him. How could Cloud have no awareness of Aerith's presence before AC if he went to live in her Church, thought that Aerith brought Denzel to him, and visited the flower field before AC? If anything, I got the sense from AC that Cloud didn't really have to find Aerith because he's always been in touch with her. Perhaps that's revealed more clearly in Aerith's novella. ;)

I don't think that the planet will die or something because there are no more Cetra around. It's sad, of course because the relationship of humans and the planet is not that close.

I, too, think that Aeris returned at the end of the game. At first I was dissapointed that Square wouldn'T show it but later I was glad they did so in a symbolic way without defining how exactly her "coming back" was meant. I still hate AC for doing just that.
And even though I never believed the theorie that humans die at the end of the game, I believe that leaving this point open made people think about the ending and the role of humans in the game. I fear people won't do so anymore now that AC is there. So, I'll hate SE forever for doing an official sequel to a game with an intentionally open ending - especially 8 years later and without Sakaguchi. I don't take AC as the truth about FFVII.

That is exactly one point which didn't add up for me. Cloud is talking about meeting her in FFVII, he says he "understands", so he knows a way to meet her. He was talking about meeting her not getting depressed about her death and meeting her two years after that. In AC it doesn't seem to me like he even tried to meet her - of course you can say that this was because he felt guilty und "unworthy" and not because he didn't want to but this was just not what I got from the game.

I believe that Aeris came back at the end of the game. AC doesn't mean anything to me.

You'll hate something and the company just because they didn't make something exactly as you wanted it to be? :P

And no offence nothing's ever going to be perfect, chances are if Sakaguchi had been involved people would have still found something to complain about.

In fact it was because of the death of Sakaguchi's mother, that the theme of life and death, and Aerith's death in FFVII was so important. I think it's very likely that he's seen the new movie and is pleased with results, and the numerous references to "Mother" And also that it's possible that the whole family theme, and mother references in the movie, are in some way a tribute to him from the rest of the team :)

After all N-U had left Square yet he still had dealings with Advent Children, and considering H-S and N-U are quite close I don't see why H-S wouldn't be taking any sort of interest in Advent Children :)

And if you hate anyone you should hate the fans because they are the ones that wouldn't stfu and get off Square's case about making a sequel ;)

Plus Cloud was very not much angsty and depressed after the end of FFVII. It was only after living with Tifa for a while, and doing deliveries when something triggered to set him off, I believe as I think Tifa believes, that it was having to deliver to the Forgotten City. And to add to Aly's theory on the pictures of the flower fields it is possible that he was quite happy for a stage during this time, getting his delivery business set up, playing with his bike, taking pictures :P

**

I had another theory Aly but I forgot :P

Hmmm.... I'd disagree with you there. I think Cloud was very angsty and depressed, even during Disk Two of FFVII as well as during the beginning of CoT. It's not like Cloud to break down in tears to show his depression. He hides it. The way you see Cloud's depression is by him taking off, keeping to himself, keeping things from Tifa and the others, and by trying to keep himself busy. Why do you think he was so anxious to start building the Seventh Heaven when he really wasn't interested in starting a bar? It was a way for him to keep his mind off of things that bothered him. Cloud was basically keeping himself busy to keep his mind off of stuff. Defeating Sephiroth served that purpose for awhile, but then he needed something else. I don't think that Cloud was a happy guy at all during the second and third disks of FFVII, or at the beginning of CoT. Cloud just doesn't show his feelings, like when he smiled at Tifa before leaving.

*Agrees with Aly* Yes, I think that Cloud was kept much too busy during the game, what with chasing down Sephiroth and all. Then, during "CoT', Cloud was hopeful, just as he was at the end of the game. Perhaps it was because he truly thought he could meet Aerith again or find a way to bring her back. Then, he just kept himself busy with rebuilding Seventh Heaven. But, when he started his delivery service and had all that time riding alone to think... that is when everything started to weigh down on him, IMO. He just had too much time to brood, riding around on Fenrir all alone. I think everything finally started to sink in when he finally had time to think things over and the depression set in. And I think the reality of the situation was the real problem-- you can't bring back the dead. :sad:

Well what I meant Aly is not visibly angsty and depressed. And not as far gone as he was by the time he got to the stage where he upped and left for the church.
I believe he was trying as you said to keep himself busy. I don't think he was as very much angsty and depressed to the point of not trying and to the point where it really showed in the beginning. Maybe I should have made myself clearer, I think he was trying, but then I think perhaps the delivery to the forgotten city is perhaps what sent him over the edge and futher down the dregs of depression ne?

I'm not making any sense am I? :lmao:

I'm not saying that he was a happy bunnee :P

I never thought he was that angsty. A little screwed up but that's it. He wasnt a 'I can't save anyone' kind of stage during the game, more like a 'I hate you for doing this' kinda guy. Didn't self blame but hated others for what they did. That's why I didn't get the reference about Cloud and Vincent being the same (though, he may be talking about AC, cause they are similar in AC, just not in the game imo).

He NEVER said 'I couldn't save my family and friends from sephiroth' but he ALWAYS said 'I can't forgive you for killing my family, hometown, etc'. Vincent totally was self blamed and very quiet. In the game, Cloud actually wasn't that quiet if you remembered.

Anyway, by people's responses, using AC as evidence, I take it you do take AC as a true sequel..sigh

Well, at the time of the game, Cloud had someone to focus his anger on (Sephiroth). But, later, upon reflection, he came to blame himself, too, I am sure. :(

Maybe he wasn't as visibly depressed or angsty, yet I think he was. There's different things he says during Disk Two that sound quite depressed. To quote from an essay written by Raist:

So Cloud did show signs of hopelessness, depression, and angst during Disks Two and Three of FFVII. We also saw that he had hopes of meeting Aerith at the end of the game. You have to consider that Cloud's in a situation where he doesn't know what to do with the rest of his life. He has reason to believe that Aerith is still available to him in some form due to the hand reach scene, but he probably doesn't know exactly how. He most likely senses her presence, as we can see from the pictures of the flower field over his desk and the fact that he believes Aerith brought Denzel to him.

Yet, at the same time, he visits the place where she died and tells Elmyra about her death. Even though he has sensed Aerith's presence, the fact of her death must have been driven home by visiting her grave and talking to Elmyra. As Cloud said later to Tifa, "lost lives cannot be brought back". Cloud also told Tifa that this was the main problem.

So what exactly was Cloud expecting after the Hand Reach scene? He obviously wants Aerith back, yet he's realizing that it's impossible for him to do so at the same time. He tries to keep himself busy with travelling to Nibelheim and rebuilding the Seventh Heaven, yet these things don't really bring him much happiness. So he tries to find other things to make him happy. He starts travelling, but that doesn't really work, either. He tries hanging out at the Church, but that doesn't work for him, either. Why? What's the main problem? "Lost lives cannot be brought back."

The more that Cloud tries to reconcile the fact that he cannot bring Aerith back, the more that it weighs on him. The significance of her death weighs terribly on him. He probably finds that the more time he has on his hands, the more he misses her. He probably also realizes that he cannot replace her.

So yes, it wore on him to the point that he could no longer deal with it. What I'm saying is that Cloud tries to hide things, just like he smiled at Tifa before leaving. Even if Cloud didn't seem outwardly depressed or angsty at first, I believe he still was still feeling it inside. He was just trying his best to hide it, because Cloud tends to hide things.

We saw Cloud hiding stuff in Nibelheim, too. He felt bad about letting Tifa fall at the bridge, so he started getting into fights. He didn't cry about it. That's just the way Cloud is.

No. This has nothing to do with wether or not I like it but rather with the fact that I love FFVII. Doing a sequel to a game with an ending that was intentionally left open destroys so much. There were questions not meant to be answered and I thought the creators valued them as such, too. So, in my opinion they only messed around with characters and storyline. FFVII ended and it gave perfectly fitting solutions either by answering, not answering, answering indirect or leaving open to interpretation. Most of that is lost now and, yes, this is something I hate SE for - because few people will think of how it was meant to be originally.

What I mean is: He wasn't working on AC. His opinions and thought aren't in there. And till now we didn't hear anything about his thoughts on the movie or any other comment.

I don't see how AC messed with the characters or the story line. Many things were left unanswered, except for humans surviving Holy. Most everything else, including the Love Triangle, was left open to interpretation.

I never thought Aerith would come back. There wasn't really any reason to think that she would. Her line in the Sleeping Forest about, "I'll be back when it's all over" was really an incorrect translation. According to Wilhelm, it should have been translated merely as, "See you later" rather than anything indicating she would return.

If you really want to look at what happened in AC, however, she did return in a sense. She never really left Cloud. I would have expected to see Cloud searching for Aerith, too, yet that was probably difficult for SE to put into a sequel. If they'd shown Cloud searching for Aerith, then it would have been too much of a Cleris implication. They wanted to leave it more neutral.

Therefore, I think the way they approached it was wise. Instead of having Cloud search, they put him in a situation where he didn't need to search because Aerith was already there with him. They just had to have Cloud realize that Aerith was always there with him. What prevented Cloud from realizing that? His guilt over her death.

SE approached it in a more neutral fashion so that they wouldn't be favoring one couple over another in the LT. But they showed us that Aerith has always been there with Cloud, and that Cloud now realizes that. Cloud can now visit her whenever he wants in the flower field and/or the Church. So it's not really that far from the original story.

Would Sakaguchi have approached it differently? Perhaps he would, but I don't think that SE butchered the characters or the original story in AC.

Yeah, but in FFVII they had a different solution - at least that's what I saw, when Cloud was reaching for her. And I don't care if they couldn't do it in a different or better way - they shouldn't have done it at all. Uh...sorry if this sounds a bit harsh, its not directed on you but rather on SE.
In my opinion they destroy many things: The most obvious, the humans die question, the Aeris solution, the fact that we see Sephiroth destroyed and defeated in FFVII not to mention [spoiler]Rufus and Tseng[/spoiler].
Of course you can argue that it could have been possible for Sephiroth to come back, which he did, but that doesn't change that he was meant to be dead in the original game... Once again a change in the original storyline.

But in general I'd say the problem is that FVII had a very open ending, which was done on purpose, and a sequel is the worst you can do to that. And even if AC would fit perfectly it wouldn't mean anything to me because the fact remains that FFVII was meant to stand on its own, so it told the whole storyline.

I agree pretty much with Sternenstaub. You might see, as if Cloud felt sad, or guilty for Aerith's death in the game, I think that's factible, but, the end of the game seems to show a new Cloud, not that I mean a totally new Cloud, but a Cloud that had a realization, something to do, a task, however you want to call it.

Cloud similing, it's not something new, he smiled too at the end of the game, in the hand reach scene. That smile, at least for me, showed a Cloud that would overcome any depression, or any other bad feeling aside, in order to find the Promised Land.

The idea of a sequel, would have been a good idea, if it have had the correct bases. AC doesn't fit, from my POV, in this case. AC was made under past fears, and under the desire of making merchandise. The past fears, as you might have thought, its the well known "The Spirits Within" fiasco, and the merchandise stuff, is pretty much obvious. Basing on those 2, the movie was made for fan service, and one of the original bases in the FFVII story, was to go with its own flow, wether the player liked it or not.

Just take Harry Potter for example, many people (and when I say many people, its many people), totally disliked the fact that JK Rowling paired Hermione with Ron, maybe JK Rowling, might have known that this would have happened, but she didn't cared, she kept her story going as it should, not as fans would have liked. That's how a real plot is supposed to be written, and if people always want to be pleased with a plot, then that people should write them theirselves. Personally, this just showed that the ALMIGHTY Nomura, lacks of the internal fortitude to take something as big as FFVII, and the same with Nojima, FFVII had a plot, pretty much complicated, for someone who wasn't Sakaguchi, to fully understand. For me, AC just showed that FFVII, can't be done without Sakaguchi, but again, that's just my very personal POV.

Well despite the lack of emphasis you seem to put on Kitase, Nojima, and Nomura unfortunately perhaps for you they were very much involved in the original FFVII itself and not simply mere character designers with no role in the story. So it seems to me you are merely biting the hand that fed you :P

You're looking to scapegoat people because they are not Sakaguchi but the truth is that FFVII was more than Sakaguchi. You honestly think that one man made up all that is that game?

Well I'm afraid that not all ideas were his alone.

Nomura can't do FFVII? Nomura was *already* part of FFVII.

Now I'm not saying Nomura is almighty, but I do think you're being very, very, very unfair.

FFVII is more than just Sakaguchi, Nojima, Kitase, and Nomura are all part of it too. As well as everyone else who worked on it in one way or another :bow:

Not only that I came across something interesting -

" Story By, Kazushige Nojima.
Story By, Yoshinori Kitase. Based on the Story By, Hironobu Sakaguchi ..."

Based on. The others added their own water to the well ;)

And insteading of trying to respond to everything I've missed whilst I was away to save time I'll just say I agree with everything Aly says :lmao: :huggle:
**

And personally I thought FFVII's "open" ending was the very thing about it that sucked. Never have I been as unsatisfied with a game's ending that I have been FFVII's.

Yes, now it's my turn to be unfair ;)

Yes, I totally agree. Thats why I really admire with JK Rowling did...Didn't care about the fans and what they wanted..not like a certain money grabbing company...:rolleyes:

And I also agree that waay too many people look at Nomura as a god...seriously, I have less respect for him after AC...but that's just my opinion. I think what drove them was the fans and not the story and thats what made FFVIIAC what it was.

No offence but I find that really offensive.

I stick up for someone that is being demeaned, and I'm sure other people do it for that reason too, and suddenly we think that person is a god :blink:

Now I've already said I don't think Nomura is almighty, please respect that.

I think we have a misunderstood in here FB. I've never said that AC is a bad story, actually its very good, but the fact is, that it is very good only as an independant story, as a sequel, it was very far behind. I've tried to see it from every angle, and from other people POVs, but I haven't seen AC as a proper sequel. I don't know if you have studied literature, and if you have, how depth, because there are many things involved when making a story, some of them are character based, like psycologcal growth.

From what I saw, most of the FFVII characters psycological growth wasn't developed accurately, specially Cloud. Also the story itself, isn't a faithful sequel, the game had a cliffhanger, and yet, it wasn't taken in consideration in the so called sequel, and not only that, but many other things that just weren't added because probable lack of comprension, script difficulties, or other stuff.

I'm not trying to take any, consideration that Nomura deserves, but due to what have been shown, it seems, at least for me that he wasn't capable of handling it. FFVII was not fan service, yet the transformed it into fan service, and by doing that, they just killed something that made FFVII special, its own flow.

I'm saying it can't be done without Sakaguchi, because he's not only the creator of FFVII's story, but the creator of all FFs in general, the fact that he had a charcter to die in FFVII, shows to me that he likes the story going as they should, and by doing so, respecting the story. Something I just didn't felt from Nomura.

Yeah we had a misunderstanding :blush:

:ninja:

Apologies :gift:

So you're not completely unhappy with Advent Children, that's good, it makes me sad to think in general not just for this although it does apply to it, when people are unable to get any enjoyment of something when the something can bring much joy, and especially when they choose to "wallow in despair" (/Luther quote Star Ocean Till the End of Time :P)

FFVII was not fan service but it become fan service. I find it's not just Advent Children but that it's been that way for a while. FFVII developed a huge fan base, one could almost say it became ruled by the fans. FFVII's fanbase has dominated for example GameFAQs where a great deal of people became peeved off that Sephiroth kept winning the GameFAQs character competitions :P No matter how many there were to vote against Sephiroth there was dozens more to vote for him and to keep the FFVII crown.

As far as fans are concerned one could say that it was FFVII that released the monsters, Advent Children was merely a side effect.

Personally I respect Nomura for what he did, it must have taken a great deal of guts to attempt such a project so I think he should at least be given credit for trying :)

Not only that many of you here don't seem to think that Advent Children wasn't and isn't something that was taken lightly by Nomura and the Square Enix staff. It wasn't just something that was done on a whim. It wasn't something that was taken lightly.

From what I remember they actually seemed almost of the point of angst as they deliberated over whether or not to deal with the FFVII world again. They called it their Pandora's Box. Everyone knows, or should know, that Pandora's Box is full of negatives except for one, one positive the most positive positive of all, a ray of light, hope. And that counts for everything.

I'm quite sure they put a great deal of thought and effort into what has been done, and you know they would have went back to study FFVII and probably what they had programmed of it. They wouldn't just be walking in the dark, walking blindly without a clue what they were doing.

Also I have a mistake to correct, earlier I said about Aerith's death being a tribute to mother? Well I have since found I was living under a misinterperation. Apparently it was during the creation of FFIII not FFVII that the mother died. She died a long time before FFVII so apparently she didn't have anything to do with it after all.

Truth is it was actually Nomura that decided that Aerith should die, and that Tifa should be brought in ( yep that info that is so often twisted by Clotis <_<). I already knew this, I've had discussions on it with Lynn before, so beats me how I came to think Sakaguchi did it :blush: Probably I just got confused because he was already involved in this conversation, and what with all the names flying around and everything :lmao:

Anyway from what I know now it was Nomura's idea, Sakaguchi merely approved it.

That's not to say Nomura killed Aerith off because she wasn't important. It's the opposite. She was very important indeed, and every writer knows that the death of a beloved character, is a good way to get some heartstrings pulled ;) Lynn's also given some very good insights into this, I shall post them if you want :bow:

Er, I don't think anyone is upset that they decided to kill off Aerith (or are they?). It was apart of the story and that was good. Besides, when I said that way too many people look at Nomura as a god...I didn't mean you, or anyone specific (sorry if you thought I did) but I just see it often when they praise him as so.

Thanks for clarifying that you didn't mean anyone specifically Oni :huggle:

Well maybe not now ( people being as upset) but back when it happened. Yes, many people cried when Aerith died ;)

And for perhaps for new people, that didn't play it back then and are only being introduced to FFVII these days, Aerith's death will be sad. Her death scene and funeral and all :(

This should clear up some of the misunderstanding about Nomura, who did not make the decision about killing Aerith... (from my LT page)

"It was Nomura's idea to kill off Aerith, because he didn't like her character, and put in Tifa as the main heroine." (CloTi b.s. #4472628)

What started this idea? An interview with Nomura in which he stated this:

"Acually, we had only Aerith at the beginning, and Tifa did not exist. But on a Sunday evening, I phoned the director Mr. Kitase and suggested, 'Let's kill Aerith and put in Tifa' (laughs). So, now we have two heroines, and we have an event where one of them dies."

First of all, Nomura never said anything about not liking Aerith's character and he sure never said anything about Tifa taking her place in Cloud's life. Secondly, this entire interview was a joke. Yep, you heard me, a joke. An interview with Game Maestro cleared it all up...

Interviewer: "FFVII had a story depicting death, what with the heroine being killed by [Cloud's] old foe, Sephiroth, wasn't it?"

Nomura: "Yeah. There are people who believe that I thought of the scenario where Aerith dies, and I've had some rather strong attacks from some (laughs). In a strategy guide interview the core part was left out, and only the joke bit ended up being published. I told them 'hey, that's not right', but it was too late. I suddenly became the villian of the FF staff (laughs)."

So, no, actually, it was not Nomura's idea to kill off Aerith. That entire original interview is pure crap and should be tossed out. You have the truth right here from Game Maestro, which was a series of interview books dealing with several people from successful video game companies. The Nomura interview appears in Vol. 4. In yet another interview (with both Nomura and Kitase), this time with EGM, Nomura tried yet again to set the record straight:

EGM: "We heard that the death of Aerith and the creation of Tifa both originated in a phone call between you two [Nomura and Kitase]...."

Nomura: "It's funny, some magazine ran that story, but only the beginning and ending of it. People think that I wanted to kill off Aerith and replace her with Tifa as the main character! [Laughs] The actual conversation between Mr. Kitase and myself was very, very long. Originally, there were only going to be three characters in the entire game: Cloud, Barret, and Aerith...."

Another thing of interest in the Nomura interview contained in Game Maestro is Nomura's explanation of Aerith's death and what they wanted to accomplish by it:

"To tell you the truth, FFVII's theme was 'life'. We had instructions from Mr. Sakaguchi saying, 'More than depicting life in the theme, you have to depict life and death. Anyhow you have to portray death.' With the death of a character, we wanted to have the player feel pain. So to do so, portraying the death of the heroine Aerith would be the most painful and important/heavy [on the feelings/emotions]. So, to portray death properly, it was decided that we would show Aerith's death."

So, it was Sakaguchi's idea to kill off a character, and he did not specify which one. That was decided later, and it was never said by whom. It is interesting to see that they wanted to make the most of the death, a death that would affect the players and the characters the greatest... and they picked Aerith, the heroine of FFVII. So, basically, this just sunk one of the CloTis favorite arguments, that Nomura "hated Aerith" and "killed her off to get rid of her because she was weak" and that Nomura wanted to "sub Tifa in for Aerith to be Cloud's girlfriend". It is all nonsense and has been proven wrong. In fact, these interviews show just how important Aerith's death was meant to be, for all of you who missed that point. And they also show that Tifa was never meant to take Aerith's place as the heroine of the game OR as Cloud's love interest.

:gift:

Do they forget that Tifa wasn't originally meant to be in FFVII???

No, they just think that the creation of Tifa was decided because Aerith "sucked" and Tifa was "hawt" and the creators meant for CloTi to be the OTP. :rolleyes: :puke: :lmao:

Well, I didn't say that. But I said that I miss Sakaguchis influence/ideas/opinions in AC and that these mean a lot to me. Sakaguchi was the father of FF after all. So, no, he didn't make the game on his own but it's not like he wasn't important.

Well, the huge fanbase exists because FFVII is what it is and I think AC takes away lots of that which is why I don't think it was the right decision. It doesn't feel to me like they did this out of appreciation for FFVII or its fans but because they knew the fans would buy it.

As far as I know its not entirely wrong. She died during the production of FFIII but even though aeris dead was not triggered by some sudden loss it was still his mothers dead that made Sakaguchi want to analyze the theme of life. And he did so in FFVII.

I would be lying if I said I didn't liked it, because I enjoyed it very much. All I said, that it wasn't as half, as I expected.

Actually, that one positive outcome, came to be ambiguous. It was positive, because the movie was good, people who just wanted to get that, are pleased, thus they are like the 88%+, but, there are other ones, like me, that really wanted a faithful sequel.

Yes, Nomura was pretty much brave to open that "Pandora's Box", but in my personal opinion, he couldn't transform that "one postive outcome", into its best. I never expected the sequel to be as good, as the game, that's impossible, but I expected something more, something that had a closer bond with the game, and that would be developed somewhat alike.

Yes, I remember I heard that once. I also heard that Nomura and Kitase, while deciding whom to kill, were deciding between Barret and Aerith.

Yep, that's true, Clerith-son. ^_^ They were undecided between Barret and Aerith for awhile. They finally decided on Aerith, because her death would have the greatest impact on the player.