Umm - first off, please feel free to move this if it's in the wrong section. I wasn't sure where to put it. :P Feel free to close it either if it's pointless. ^^

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If you watch the second commercial, the one with the hymn playing in the background - at the last scene when Tifa says, "Have we lost to a memory?" you can see quite clearly that there are actually tears in her eyes.

From what I remember of the earlier trailers, there weren't any tears in her eyes in that scene before this. So it looks like the scene was touched up, but I wonder why they made her teary-eyed? Did something happen to break her heart again? Or did the sudden truth that Cloud was pining for Aeris suddenly hit her? Or does she realize Cloud is dying and doesn't want to lose him?

What do you guys think? :unsure:

Tifa always looked upset in that scene to me. She's saying that they've been defeated by a memory in some way. It's hard to know what she means by that, though.

She could mean that Sephiroth's memory has defeated Cloud's party in some way OR she could mean that the memory of Aerith has defeated Tifa's chance for a relationship with Cloud.

At this point, it's very hard to decide what Tifa means without seeing the context in which she says it.

Really? I haven't noticed her tears.
But I would think if anything would make her cry, it would be the thought that her friend,comrade, someone whom she had once admired and loved, is giving up his fight and letting his life leak away little by little.

Yeah, I agree. But I mostly think it's with Sephiroth's memory and Cloud's party. At first, without the tears, it makes her look serious and makes me think it's toward Sephiroth. But when she adds tears, it makes her look emotional.. it's a huge possibility that she's talking about Aeris's memory, but then she said, "Have we lost to a memory?" But, it doesn't really matter with the "we" part.

Exactly - before the scene was retouched I assumed she was talking about Sephiroth too. Now that I see tears, I can't help thinking of it more in a relationship context. Has she finally come to terms that Cloud will never see her in the same light he sees Aeris? It makes me feel somewhat sad for her, in a way.

Then again, it could also be like what slowerthanaverage says that she's upset that Cloud seems to have lost all his spirit.

I wonder what would Cloud do if she let her tears fall? Would he comfort her? Put his arm around her? Or walk away? In FF7, he turned away when Aeris cried. :whistle:

Fair enough, I guess we do need to see the scene before making assumptions. Until then, it's still fun to debate and speculate about it. :devil:

yin-chan, the only reason Cloud turned away from Aerith when she cried in Final Fantasy VII was because she had run away from them and was hiding behind a pillar. I think he felt that she didn't want him to, because he goes toward her, and then stops himself visibly (for a sprite :P). Then he stands with his back to her and talks to her gently.

So I don't think his response to Tifa's tears would be the same. He'd probably turn his back toward her first, even if she wanted sympathy, because he wouldn't know what to do. She is a friend, after all, but I think he'd be at a loss for how to help her when he's so lost himself.

I think she's more upset about the fact that he's not fighting, rather than him loving Aerith. In the game, it looked like she'd accepted his feelings for Aerith with no anger or frustration, so if she cried over Aerith it would make no sense to me. I can see her being upset that he's not fighting, though. That he's lost to his memories (to his memory of failing Aerith, of failing Zack, of not being able to save anyone), you know?

I can't see her tears in the screen, though. Anyone want to screen cap and point them out? :lol:

But yeah, we do need the whole scene in its completion before we start assuming things. ^_^

I agree with Wingless. I don't think Tifa is crying because she thinks she realizes that Cloud still loves Aeris. She's upset with the fact that someone she cares deeply for is choosing death over his own life. I can't blame her to start getting emotional at that point. What would you do if you learned a loved one is not even going to fight for his life or the lives of others?

"Have we[I] lost to a memory?"

I don't think this line means Tifa talking about 'losing' to Aeris. This sounds too bitter, even for Tifa to say. Let's me translate this to what I believe Tifa is trying to say:

"Has Cloud lost to a memory?" OR "Is Cloud lost in his memories?"

I don't think the 'we' means 'I', as in Tifa, or 'we', as in the group. I think the 'we' stands for Cloud. Cloud is choosing to give up withour much of a fight(to geostigma or Jenova/Sephiroth/SHM), because he is lost in the memories of those he failed to protect in the past- Aeris, Zack, his mother, people in his hometown.
IMO

Which brings up another question(s) in mind, Is Cloud 'scared' that he will lose anyone else(doesn't matter who- could be Tifa, Marlene, Barret, or anyone of his companions)? Does he think that if he continues to fight the SHM, Jenova, or Sephiroth, he will lose someone else? He already lost so much, is he scared of losing more?

I agree with Wingless, too. I really don't think that Tifa would be as cold as to refer to a dear friend such as Aerith 'a memory', and I certainly don't think she would push Cloud to forget his grief for Aerith and start a relationship with her in such a way. Tifa just isn't that type of person.

Wingless:

That's how I feel also. From my understanding of the ending, Tifa understood and already accepted that Aerith is the one residing in Cloud's heart. I think "a memory" might be a reference to Cloud's memories of having failed those he loves. Tifa could be referring to the idea that all those who are in need of him (the children, the planet, all his friends) are losing out to those memories. However, she says "a memory"...which makes me think that it is specifically the memory of having failed Aerith. Afterall, it seems to me like Aerith's forgiveness is most important to Cloud.

"Have we lost to a memory?" could also simply mean "Are memories truly so strong that they would overcome a person?". If so, then she is probably referring to human nature in general.

MB:

I hope not...otherwise, I would really start to dislike Tifa... :(

For me, when she says "Have we lost to a memory?" it implies to me that - it may mean - the memory is not supposed to be strong/important enough to be lost to. Ah it's hard to explain, I was annoyed because if she did mean Aeris's memory, then is she implying that Cloud should just forget about the memory, cast it aside and start fighting? :unsure:

Perhaps she would be referring to Sephiroth - perhaps Cloud's fear of fighting Sephiroth again and once again losing something dear - oh my. This is confusing.

However, if she uses we(I) in a personal context, what memory has she lost to? :unsure: Would she be admitting losing to Aerith's memory? Is she lost to something else? The memory of Sephiroth? :unsure:

Remember, yin-chan, that at that point she had lost to Loz. She might be injured and physically unable to save Marlene and Denzel. We don't have the whole conversation of course, but she's trying to ask Cloud for help, and he is steadfastly refusing her because he feels he cannot save anyone: "not family, not friends, no one."

In many cultures, it is considered rude to point fingers and say "have you lost to a memory". It shows a callous feeling and an abrasive personality, and it really hurts the other person. If Tifa includes herself "we", it becomes a mutual thing, and she shows that she not only sympathizes with Cloud, but that she wants more from him. The Japanese are a very polite culture, and I don't think they'd ever ever say "have you lost to a memory?"

The underlying meaning behind "have we lost to a memory" means many things. Remember, Tifa is not in Cloud's head, and she cannot know everything that he knows. All she knows is based on a.) his actions and b.) his words. All he's shown her thus far (that we know of) is that he feels he is a failure and cannot help anyone. He has said nothing about Aerith at this point, so Tifa does not know the order in which things stand, or what's guilting him the most. (Because he hasn't told her, not because she doesn't know that Aerith is important to Cloud.)

"Have we lost to a memory", in this context, then becomes "have we lost to our memories, to the failures of the past?" Or "have we lost our strength to our failures?" I really think that the sentence can be taken as literally as it's written, with no real subtexts. Of course, the memory is worth fighting for (Aerith's death, Zack's death, Cloud's mother's death), but I think Tifa means that he's lost to and dwelling on the fact that he failed them, not the fact that he should make their deaths not in vain.

So it seems a more general thing to me than honing in on one aspect of Cloud's depression.

Yes. That's how I see it too. I think by saying 'have we lost to a memory', Tifa means something like 'Have we lost because you think you can't protect anyone? Have we lost because you don't think there's any point to even trying? Have you been overcome by your memories of faliure, and because you feel you failed friends and family, you're afraid it'll happen again?' I definitely don't think she's referring to a romantic relationship with Cloud here. Like I said, Tifa isn't that kind of person.

I think tifa lost to Aerith he obviously wants to be with her and nothing tifa can say will make him love her. how could cloud lose to the memory of sefiroth?

It depends if Sephiroth is alive or whether he's just a spirit in AC. We don't know that Sephy is actually alive.

If Sephiroth is just a spirit, then Cloud could lose a battle to the memory (spirit) of Sephiroth.

I am thinking since they have not foughten for 2 years they are pretty weak..remember when she says. "We lost our powe, but Cloud seemed to have found it again." (I don't remember the correct dialog, but that is the gist of it) So I am thinking **spoiler**





Sephiroth.






**/spoiler**

is pretty strong and they are in the losing stretch. Tifa is not very strong..she may have physical strength, but Tifa needs Cloud....for everything. Or Aerith to be the optomist and keep her spirits up since Aerith is gone..Tifa eaither A.) Came to the relisation that they could possibly lose this battle

or

B) That Cloud may have to die.

So saying "we have lost to a memory" most likely means they are loosing to **spoiler**


Sephiroth or Jenova

**/spoiler**

Shimley - we don't have spoiler tags in this forum. You can find out how to hide text in this forum here: Marking Spoilers - Important ~ Anastar

oops my bad. I am use to ACF....ahhh my mistake.

No biggie. Those weren't big spoilers anyway. :lol: But we will know some VERY big spoilers in just a couple of days, since AC is premiering in Venice tomorrow. So please remember to post any Spoiler topics in the Spoiler Forum! :)

I am defidently not going into the spoiler forum then. Is the release date still the 14th?

But yes..........Tifa seems to be clingy again. Maybe we could push her off a cliff and do some weird FF magic and revive Aerith since she isnot all like, "OH CLOUD HOLD ME I AM SO CLINGY!! OH CLOUD I NEED YOU TO TELL ME EVERYTHING IS OKAY!!!"

sorry had to get that out of my system. :whistle:

I still like TIfa though.

You've already gone into the Spoiler forum! :lol: :P

The release date is only for Sept. 14th in Japan. Apparently, it'll be released in the US in November. You'll find more about the delay in the NA release date here: http://s8.invisionfree.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/...?showtopic=1930

Nomura also said in a recent message that they haven't even finished dubbing the NA version yet. So, it looks like a November NA release is accurate. <_<

I hate to admit it,but Yinchan is right,I kind of feel bad for her,but still..........
.........the idea of it being Sephiroth is kind of cool.Crocodile tears I say.

Thanks for the link. And I ment I am not going into the spoiler forum after all the venice festival stuff is posted. Because I want to see it myself.......but knowing me I will end up in there.

Though it is true that the Japanese culture is very polite, in media sense, its not always true. Since the scenes are just bits and pieces, you can't really rule what Tifa means. Plus, media like anime, video games, music, manga....they don't really used the correct usage of Japanese grammer. If you say," Kimi wo aishiteru"...like it does in the opening of Escaflowne, you consider that person to be lower than you, or more like, it can be sort of disrespectful. You would have to say something like, "...______....ga daisuki desu". Its really complicated to explain, but the Japanese learned from a teacher (or Japanese class) and the Japanese that is heard from J-media aren't always exactly the same. Maybe the correct way to put it is, audience wise. Media are meant for the audience, so in many instance, anime, manga, movies, videogames...they won't be using correct Japanese grammer usage most of the time. There may be sentences that are missing an ending or just informal.

:lol: I wouldn't rule that out. The Japanese culuture is polite, but media-wise..not everything in there has to be polite.

I was also looking back a while ago on the Final FMV thread...though it was quite interesting, the last few lines are corrected as they should be. I don't really think that the last few lines of what Cloud say has been mistranslated. It was translated as close to the meaning as possible. I'm sorry, its kind of hard explaining Japanese grammer but maybe I'll recap it next time since I'm out of time... :cry:

uhh...I might be blind for this but...I cant really tell if tifa has tears... :unsure:

Ah, yes, the premiere in Venice. i dont know about all of you, but i am SCREECHING with joy, just hearing about it. i cannot wait for those spoilers!

anyway, I'd have to agree with Anastar, 100%. Cloud isn't only angsting about meeting Aerith, you must realize, he has been through alot. I dont see it as Tifa realizes Cloud wants Aerith (which is true, IMO. lol) Tifa is just concerned about him, and as his friend, i expect her to be. So therefore, she asks him, why is there a need to dwell over somethig that happend in the past? Also, we mustn't forget the "zuru-zuru" phrase. But now that i think about it, somehow, she is relaying it more on Aerith's part. Cloud wasnt as affected by Zack's Death, as he was Aerith's. So, i suppose its a little bit of Aerith, and his past memories then? Moreso on all of his memories combined, though. something related to, "you cant stay in the past so you must step forward to the future."

just my personal opinion. my ideas sound scrambled,(can you blame me? its been a long day) but i hope everyone understands what im trying to get at. :-]

Hehe, I understand, Son_Pan!

Actually, while I was giving more thought about it, I think Tifa is just very concerned for Cloud. She really cares for him, and it's probably expected for someone to get emotional when their good friend is losing hope.. in times of peril. Cloud is just "dwelling" in the past and is feeling ashamed. I think they added her tears to show that she really is serious and cares a lot for Cloud. Tifa wouldn't cry over something personal, I guess. If she was pointing it towards Aeris's memory, she is just whining and cares more of her own feelings (which has nothing to do with the storyline). Also, in the end of FFVII, Tifa understands that Aeris is the one Cloud loves. I hope she accepts it and moves on with her life (lol); but she is not the type of girl who wouldn't bring it up again.. especially when they're endangered. I don't think Tifa would refer Aeris as only a 'memory' anyway, as I was thinking about it.. And as mentioned before, I think what Tifa said "Have we lost to a memory" meant "Has Cloud lost to a memory".

You may disagree, it's just my idea.. The way I put it into words may sound confusing, so sorry about that. :D

I also truly agree with that idea. He might be too intimidated to fight because he thinks he might lose somebody else.. like the others he lost in the past.

I personally think that Tifa saying "Have we[I] lost to a memory?" means that she has lost to something/someone that has really affected Cloud so much. *coughAeriscough* Also, in the english version of the movie Tifa asks cloud "Which is it? A memory or us?" A very obvious line for me. To make things even more pleasurable (haha), it was followed by Cloud saying "But I let you die." :)