This is an argument I don't totally grasp the significance of. The gist of it is this:

"Cloud was willing to sacrifice his masculinity by dressing up as a woman just to save Tifa from Don Corneo. This means that she's extra-special to him because what guy would DO a thing like that otherwise?"

Now Cloud may act like a tough cookie at the start of the game, but he's hardly masculine in Barret and Cid's league. Cloud is not the same as Barret or Cid. Yes, he's conscious of what other people think of him and initially wants to come off as tough, but it's not his true nature. Cloud is not a big tough man - he's a lost little boy. While it's perfectly in-character for men like Barret or Cid to only ever compromise their manliness to save the girl of their dreams, but I just don't see the same macho behaviour coming from Cloud. Sure, he may grumble about it and see it as a bit of a sacrfice, but my point is that I really don't see him as the type to not do this for any of his friends, if they were in danger. Giving up his masculinity for a short while doesn't indicate (to me, at least) that somehow Tifa is a special case. For one thing, it's Aeris' idea, Aeris who pushes him into it, and he complains about it a fair bit, too. If it's a romantic sacrifice, then it's hardly a good-natured one. It was the only thing he could do to get into the Don's mansion, which he seemed to want to do for Aeris' sake more than Tifa's. The only other thing he could have done was stand around outside whilst two far braver girls took all the risks, which is far less manly in my opinion.

Cloud's masculinity is in fact very boyish - he wants to be admired, he wants to be cool, he wants to better than all the other Nibelheim kids, he wants to emulate Sephiroth, he wants to live Zack's life, he wants everyone in Midgar to know that he's a scary, tough loner who doesn't need anyone. It's all boyish behaviour (by which I don't necessarilly mean immature - just boyish). He also isn't sure about getting help from a girl, another boyish way of handling things, but gives in when he realizes that Aeris is more stubborn than he is. His sort of masculinity is image-oriented (not shallow, just driven by past insecurities and a crisis of identity), but the sexual threat that cross-dressing poses to his masculinity and ego doesn't equate into that boyish mindframe. He's afraid of weakness and failure, but how much does giving up his masculinity for a while show him overcoming this? In my opinion it isn't really for Aeris or Tifa's sake that he does this, but for necessity's sake. It's his only option. And in my opinion, he doesn't want to wear a dress because he feels silly and embarassed, not because he thinks it'll threaten his manhood in some way.

Cloud's always putting himself on the line to save people - he challenges Shinra itself to rescue Aeris, and runs up mountains to try and save Yuffie (who'd just betrayed the whole party) and Elena (a semi-enemy) without the help of any Materia. He always puts himself out on the line, and takes risks to help people. Between the risks to his body and the risks to his ego, which do you consider more important and meaningful when it comes to Cloud? :rolleyes:

I also don't think we should take Tifa as a special case during that Wall Market scene. Without Aerith's more creative and efficient suggestion that he dress up like a girl, he probably would have burst into Don Corneo's to rescue Tifa. Aerith, however, managed to convince him of the, ummm, 'better' way to do this without getting caught :lol:

Exactly. The Wall Market scene demonstrates this perfectly. He chose to risk the 'shallow', image-oriented masculinity in order to fulfill his own definition of masculinity: that of going at any lengths to rescue the people you care about.

"Cloud was willing to sacrifice his masculinity by dressing up as a woman just to save Tifa from Don Corneo. This means that she's extra-special to him because what guy would DO a thing like that otherwise?"

I've heard that argument so many times, and of course, I think it to be rather ridiculous. Excellent post though, HB, and I completely agree with you.

It's understood that Cloud and Aeris both go to the Don's with the intention of rescuing Tifa. However, the plan of dressing up, initially, was to prevent Aeris from having to go in alone and from Cloud from having to rush in and make a big scene. Once they were safely inside, they would both rescue Tifa. I completely agree with you, HB, in that Cloud would have done this for any of his friends. It's simply in his nature to do so.

I applaud Cloud for having had the guts to dress up as a girl. It was very brave of him, indeed. Barret would have wimped out on the idea. And they call HIM manly... :lol:

That pretty much sums it all up, HB... :)

I always thought that reasoning was rather lame, too, Hyper. The Wall Market episode of Cloud dressing up like a woman was supposed to be taken humorously. It was a chance for the player to dress Cloud up like a woman. Actually, if you make all wardrobe changes to Cloud, he gets picked by Don Corneo... so the more you "de-masculinize" Cloud, the more chance Cloud has of ending up with Corneo! :lol:

I don't understand the Cloti's need to twist something so obviously meant for humor into a defense of Cloud's feelings for Tifa. Like you said, Cloud wasn't the most masculine character to begin with. Ask Clorith, who screams every time she sees a picture of "manly Cloud". :lol:

How can the “rescue” of Tifa at Don Corneo’s mansion even begin to compare with what Cloud had to face in order to rescue Aerith from the Shinra Building? Tifa wasn’t captured and placed in forceful captivity in Don Corneo’s mansion. She went there voluntarily to get information from Don Corneo. How does the ordeal of climbing all the way to the upper plate up a wire, fighting his way up 69 floors of the Shinra building, obtaining the Keycards, sneaking past the guards, solving the Midgar puzzle, fighting boss battles with HO512 and ultimately with Rufus to rescue Aerith compare to the humorous escapades of dressing up like a woman in order to get into Don Corneo’s mansion?

Exactly. An excellent observation, Kusari! :wub:

I completely agree...all Cloud really needs to go to get in is put on a dress and a wig! All the extra items are optional, and have nothing to do with rescuing Tifa - it's all about getting Cloud picked by the Don and either nearly kissing him or confessing that he has feelings for Barret! :lmao: The whole thing is a very wierd sequence of the game and isn't meant to be taken seriously. It's a bit of comic-relief in an otherwise dark and depressing game, and shouln't have much (if any) bearing on the Love Triangle.

I'm with Clorith on this! :lol: Cloud is not some kind of tough "man's man" ("Let's mosey"). Sure, dressing up like a girl might be embarassing, but he isn't exactly going to have a fit over sacrificing his precious masculinity either! <_<

Because it's Tifa, foo! :lmao:

A drag queen.


Sorry, I had to say it, it was the first thing that poppped into my head.

And another thing, how can they say that just because he did it to help Tifa means she is extra special? Who's to say he wouldn't have done it for Aeris? I mean, would he have left Aeris there all alone? I think with her he would get in there even quicker to save his true love. :P

I'm not sure he would have done it for Aerith...because there would be no Aerith to convince him to do it! :lol:

he couldn't leave aerith to go inside alone. he would have to act like a proper body guard and protect her! if it meant dressing up like a woman, then so be it. he did it more for aeris then tifa.

You can also notice, that he starts to wonder how he will be able to get into Corneo's, its a mansion with some guards, that's it.

But with Aerith, its a Shinra Building filled with Shinra Employees, SOLDIER members crawling all over the place, the Turks and the Shrina President with loads of weapons.

He doesn't care about his danger to save Aerith, he just runs in there. While he stopped to think about how to get into Corneo's mansion. Compared to the Shrina Building, that's nothing.

I think clotis read too much into this part. It was just a smart plan to get into the mansion without raising alarm. Besides, Cloud was willing to risk even more important things (his life, perhaps?) than his masculinity to save the others. I mean, in the Shinra building Cloud was reduced to crawling through a vent in a toilet just to find Aeris. I think that's pretty degrading too.

Good point, Schala! All fellow debaters please bookmark that in your brains! :P

Very good point indeed!! *seconds*

When he busted into the Shinra building, you didn't see Cloud telling Tifa "How could I ask you to come when it could be dangerous?" :whistle: Oh noooo he didn't. In fact, you even had the choice to bust your way in there, which would probably put Tifa in a whole lot more 'danger' than having Aeris enter Don's mansion with him dressed as a woman. :devil: And even then he appeared to be a whole lot more concerned about Aeris's safety than Tifa's...mission. :D

:cleris: <---oooh I couldn't resist! :wub:

I never considered that scene to endorse Cloti at all. In fact, it was almost Cleris. I always thought that it concerned Aerith that Cloud's friend was in danger, and so she decided to go in and help her. Cloud seemed the most disturbed at the thought of Aerith going into a whorehouse alone! :lol:

I agree, if Cloud had gone to Wall Market alone, he probably would've just busted into Don's mansion. It's because of Aeris that he dressed up as a woman.

Guard Guy: Sorry, the Don doesn't like men.

Cloud: Hmmm...I know! I'll dress up as a woman!

OR

Guard Guy: Sorry, the Don doesn't like men.

Cloud: *Takes out Buster Sword* Do you wanna do this the easy way or the hard way?

Hmm...I wonder which one the cold hearted mercenary would pick...

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

I agree.. Cloud wouldn't have thought that way but really... just seeing that and picturing it in my mind made me laugh really hard.

And that was for comedy relief. I made sure Cloud was dressed up SOOO pretty that the Don would pick him.

Hahahahaha

you know, this just proves that CloTi fans would go through anything, even if erasing some obvious facts or playing blind, just to prove that *cloud LOVES :puke: Tifa* and vice versa.

Edit: foud some images...hehehe...

lol, i agree! i mean, he didn't want Aeris to go alone, and also needed to save Tifa, so the only opition was to dress up as a girl. In my opinion, thats very brave, rather than say no, he faced it. :lol: and besides, it's Aeris' idea, and she helped him dress up and everything! lol.

Therefore, Cloud's cool! :lol: :lol: :lol:

if it was aeris in tifa's position... cloud wouldn't have stopped to consider any plan... he would've just busted into the mansion without thinking... :angel:

well.. that's what i like to think anyway.. :whistle:

"Cloud was willing to sacrifice his masculinity by dressing up as a woman just to save Tifa from Don Corneo. This means that she's extra-special to him because what guy would DO a thing like that otherwise?"


This actually isn't true... If you really htought about it... he risked his masculinity for Aeris... Lol... Aeris was willing to go in there alone... Cloud didn't want her to go in alone...

Aerith: (to Cloud) Hey, this looks like the Don's mansion. I'll go take a look.
I'll tell Tifa about you.

Cloud: No!! You can't!!

Aerith: Why?

Cloud: You DO know... what kind of... place this is, don't you?

Aerith: Then what as I supposed to do? You want to go in with me?

Cloud: Well being a man, that'll be pretty hard. Besides if I bust in there,
it'll cause too much commotion. But, I just can't let you go in alone... Oh,
man...... First... we need to find out if Tifa's alright... What's so funny
Aeris?

Aerith: Cloud, why don't you dress up like a girl? It's the only way.

Cloud: WHAT!?

Aerith: (to the man) Just wait. I've got a cute friend I want to bring.

Cloud: Aeris! I can't......

Okay... that should prove it... He didn't do it for Tifa, he did it to protect Aeris...

lol i'd like to think he did it for both of them. yup, the indecisive Cloud kill 2 birds with 1 stone... by kill i mean solves problem