The topic states my feelings on the pairing. Now allow me to elaborate a little here.

It's rather obvious that Tifa likes Cloud. Nothing against her there, and that Cloud used to like Tifa.

The problem is, in each case the person they like doesn't really exist. Cloud fell for Tifa from a distance when he was younger. From a distance. That's the key. He really didn't know her, nor did he ever get the chance to really sit down and talk with her except right before he left. He had no clue who she really was, just by what he saw from the rare meeting and glimpses.

It wasn't until after Cloud left that Tifa started thinking about him. That was when she decided she really liked him. After he had already gone and when he wasn't around anymore to actually show her the type of person he was. Much like Cloud did with Tifa, Tifa fell for the IDEA of what Cloud was.

Now, if Cloud had revealed himself back during the Nielbelham mission, things could have gone very different. However he kept he face hidden and later, he believed that she was killed by Sephiroth.

Cloud had five years to think about this. For five years he believed that she was dead, and eventually, just got over her. When he makes his return, he's no longer interested in her, but she's imagined what a great person he's become.

It's not until the scene towards the end when the message is really sent home. When everybody else goes their seperate ways, Tifa and Cloud are left alone with each other. This is when they release that they really don't have anything to talk about.

That's why their relationship was catalogued as : "More than friends, less than lovers"

I'm actually a bit surprised that Tifa suddenly showed such a huge interest in Cloud after ignoring him all his life.
She barely knew him as children, why did she suddenly make him promise? Why did she suddenly go all, "I have feelings for Cloud!"
You can't just....develop feelings for someone you barely know? Especially when you're children?
And when they reunited in Avalanche...she still had feelings for him, which really puzzled me. How? What? Where? Why? :unsure:

I've always thought that Tifa developed feelings for him so suddenly because she thought he was going to become a SOLDIER. Her dream was to be rescued by a hero, and who better to do that than a famous SOLDIER like Sephiroth? You can even see it when they make the Promise:

Cloud "Come this spring.... I'm leaving this town for Midgar."
Tifa "........All boys are leaving our town."
First, Tifa's late to the well. Cloud's getting all cold by the time she gets there. Now, she doesn't even seem to care that he's leaving.

Cloud "But I'm different from all of them. I'm not just going to find a
job." "I want to join SOLDIER." "I'm going to be the best there is, just like Sephiroth."
Tifa "Sephiroth.... The Great Sephiroth."
Notice how she admires Sephiroth at that time?

Tifa "Isn't it hard to join SOLDIER?"
Cloud "...I probably wont be able to come back to this town for a while."
Cloud "...huh?"
Tifa "Will you be in the newspapers if you do well?"
Why does she ask him if he'll be in the newspapers? To me, that's very shallow. She's only concerned about how famous he'll become, because you have to be a famous SOLDIER to get in the newspapers.

Cloud "I'll try."
Tifa "Hey, why don't we make a promise?" "Umm, if you get really famous and I'm ever in a bind....." "You come save me, all right?"
Notice how she says that he has to get really famous before he saves her? What's that supposed to mean? Don't bother to come save me unless you become famous first? <_<

Some women are the type who fall for guys with money and power. Men like Donald Trump have women hanging all over them when they're single. I think the same kind of thing was going on here with Tifa. She wants someone famous to come rescue her, and I don't think she really cares who it is... as long as they're famous.

Coz she's been watching for his picture in the newspapers all that time, which is rather like a fangirl looking in the fan magazines for pictures of Brad Pitt or whoever. Even though the girl doesn't really know Brad Pitt, she still has a crush on him and what she thinks he's like. Like Alan Bates said, Tifa was in love with the idea of a famous SOLDIER, rather than being in love with what Cloud really is.

That's why I question the idea of just how deeply Cloud and Tifa care for one another. If you're just hung up on what you think the other person is without really knowing them, how sincere are your feelings?

Just as like Aragorn told Eowyn, when she tried to tell him, she loved him, in The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King. "The one, you are in love with, is a shadow, that doesn't exist."

Oh yeah, that does make sense now I think of it. I wonder if Tifa was sure Cloud would become famous. If he hadn't appeared in the newspapers, I doubt she'd have developed any feelings. It is kinda shallow, now that you point it out...
Thanks, Aly!

When she got him to join Avalanche, I wonder if she was doing it because he was 'famous' or because she felt Avalanche really needed his help. :unsure:

If Tifa didn't really know who the 'real' Cloud was...I admire her for staying with him in Mideel and still waiting for him in AC. But I still think her feelings are pretty underdeveloped...I don't think she's managed to uncover the 'real' Cloud yet. Even Aeris was trying to find the 'real' Cloud by the "I want to meet you' quote - even though Tifa helped Cloud find out his real past, I doubt she really knows 'him', does anyone get what I mean?

On another note, if Cloud looked like a sumo wrestler in all the newspapers, I seriously wonder if Tifa would even have anything to do with him. :lmao: After all, heroes have to be handsome, right? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Well, you didn't see her jumping all over Wedge, now did you? :P

She was just too shy to go after a sexy guy like Wedge! It's so tragic she never got out her true feelings... :sad:

Tifa gave a bunch of reasons for asking him to join Avalanche. After the Reunion, she has a flashback of Cloud arriving in Midgar, and she says this:

Tifa "Actually, it's been seven years." "You got your wish and joined SOLDIER, quit after the Sephiroth incident, and now you're a mercenary..." "You told me a lot about what happened after you left Nibelheim..." "But..." "...Something's wrong. I felt there was something strange about the things you talked about." "All the things you didn't know that you should. And other things you shouldn't know that you did..." "I wanted to make sure..." "But then I heard... you were going far away..."
(The screen finally goes to black.)
Tifa "And I didn't want that..." "I didn't know what to do. So, I thought I needed more time." "And that's why I told you about the AVALANCHE job. I wanted to be with you, watch you."

So she thought something was wrong, and she wanted more time to observe his behavior. Why? Was she suspicious? Did she think someone was impersonating Cloud? Was she worried about him? Was she simply curious? All are possible, so we don't know for sure what motivated her.

But in that passage, I've always thought it was interesting that Tifa says, "But then I heard... you were going far away..." Why would Cloud go far away if he still had a crush on Tifa, like the Cloti's want to believe? Wouldn't he want to stay there if he had a crush on Tifa? :lol: Who would tell Tifa that Cloud was going far away? Where would Cloud be going?

When Barret and Cloud are arguing about his pay in the Seventh Heaven, Tifa tells Barret that Avalanche is really needing help, so it could be that she wanted Cloud in Avalanche for that reason, too:

Tifa "It's ok, it's ok." "psst, psst..... (We're realy hurting for help, right?)"

While Tifa's trying to talk Cloud into going on more missions with Avalanche, I think that Cloud's responses are interesting:

(Cloud moves to leave. Tifa runs in.)
Tifa "Wait, Cloud!"
Barret "Tifa! Let him go!" "Looks like he still misses the Shinra!"
Cloud "Shut up!" "I don't care about either Shinra or SOLDIER!" "But don't get me wrong!" "I don't care about AVALANCHE or the Planet for that matter!"
Tifa "Straighten things up with everyone for me."
.....
(Cloud goes back up the elevator and goes to leave. He is followed by Tifa.)
Notice how Cloud just ignores Tifa's requests to stay and to straighten things up with everyone?

Tifa "Listen, Cloud. I'm asking you. Please join us."
Cloud "Sorry Tifa..."
Tifa "The Planet is dying. Slowly but surely it's dying." "Someone has to do something."
Cloud "So let Barret and his buddies do something about it." "It's got nothin' to do with me."
(He moves to leave)
Cloud moves to leave a third time, even with Tifa asking him to stay. IF Cloud still had a crush on Tifa, then why is he acting this way? Why did it take Barret paying Cloud to get him to stay in Avalanche IF Cloud still cared about her? Of course, I find it questionable that Cloud ever had a crush on Tifa in the first place. Read this thread for more: A Crush on Tifa?

You make a fantastic point there, Alan. (Welcome, by the way!) I've always believed that while Tifa obviously loves Cloud, she did fall in love with the idea of the knight in shining armour who'd come and save her when she was in trouble. That's what I tried to say in the Tifa/Zack essay on my site, though some people took it to mean OMG TIFA LUVZ ZACK WTF LOL! :lmao:

This bit I agree with especially. A lot of gamers took "Nothing's really changed" to mean that Cloud still retains his childhood crush on Tifa, but I saw it as meaning that they still don't really know what to say to each other, like the night at the well all those years ago.

So does that mean that Cloud was planning to leave again after the Sephiroth incident? But by that time Tifa had joined Avalanche and made him stay?
Oh it's so confusing.
Hang on...after the Sephiroth incident Cloud left the town to become a mercenary right? That's when Tifa goes to Midgar...and joins avalanche? And is reunited with Cloud there...?
....my brain is lost. :P

She knew that her lies were beginning to wear off, which was what sparked the odd behaviour in cloud, perhaps? She might have been afraid to lose him if he did indeed suddenly 'see the light'. A tad selfish, IMO, but quite understandable reasoning.

My thoughts exactly. :lmao: I doubt he would've stayed if Barret didn't pay him. However, it can be argued that he uses the pay as an excuse to stay and hide the obligations or affections he feels towards Tifa. Like for instance, when a person actually does want something but refuses to show it - upon being pressed a few times only does a person give in - but still hides the fact that he actually wants it -that sort of personality trait seems very likely in Cloud.
It's just an argument that might seem reasonable for this point though. I agree with your opinion that Cloud didn't show any desire to stay for Tifa even though she pleaded with him to. Seems like someone's moved on~! :whistle:

I agree!

It is kinda awkward. Cloud had a crush with Tifa from afar.... and then Cloud tells Tifa to come to the well... Tifa's late making Cloud cold, Tifa makes Cloud promise because she thinks Cloud's gonna be some famous hero, 5 yrs has gone by... they reunite in the train... Tifa suddenly is interested in him, Cloud doesn't give a dime to join AVALANCHE... there's a gap somewhere, it doesn't make sense either. But somehow they're still remembered as "Childhood friends" even though they knew little of eachother, which I think is confusing.

Cloud or Tifa had said "Nothing's really change", so many think Cloud's the same, which is quite hard to believe. They don't know each other's feelings except of childhood. There's a big difference of past Cloud and future Cloud somewhere. Some people refer that Tifa knows Cloud. Why because they knew eachother from childhood? LYKE MY GOSH CLOUD AND TIFA WERE CHILDHOOD SWEETHEARTS SO THEY SHOULD BE LYKE TOGETHER!!!!11111111

As for "More than friends...less than lovers" reference...I think the bold gave ya a hint there. So why bother.:whistle:

In AC...they're working together not living together. Best Friends unite!!!!

As for Tifa helping him through Lifestream, I don't think she knows the "real Cloud", because she only knows Cloud's past, but not his future self.

Tifa is interested him around the time that he fails to save her from the bridge. (Not in a romantic sense, but in the sense that she notices him, probably because he's "from the wrong side of the tracks".) At the beginning of the game, she says that he used to get into a lot of fights when he was younger. This means she at least paid a little attention to his existence, though I don't think she cared much. So, when he calls her to the well, and then tells her he's going to become a great SOLDIER, she decides she likes him. And there you have it, Tifa's Cloud-complex is established, and probably maintained, for all the years until her reunion with Cloud in Sector 7.

Tifa finds Cloud at the train station, and he's a wreck. She probably nurses him back to health, but he wants to leave (she says she heard he was going far away, after all). Probably being around her not only brings back bad memories, but he's trying to conceal his identity because he still doesn't want her to know that he's a failure. If she knows how much he knows, she might realize the very thing he tried to conceal five years before: that he was, indeed, at Nibelheim and was not the great SOLDIER he told her he'd be. So, knowing that he wants to leave, Tifa (because she wants to keep him around, since she now has a Cloud-complex) probably offers him the first reactor job. At this point, Cloud probably wants as little to do with Tifa as possible, and Tifa wants to keep Cloud as close as possible. Oh what a mess. At least he meets Aerith out of all of it. :)

In the end, it can be argued that Tifa does know the real Cloud. But that doesn't mean that Cloud loves her. If we forget for a moment that Tifa knew Cloud in childhood, and just consider her present adult relationship with him, we see that she has about as much time to get to know him as Aerith does. Plus, she knows of his past, so anything that Aerith knows about him, Tifa probably does too, as they're experiencing the same events together. Tifa, unfortunately, also has the added benefit of being able to be with him after Aerith's death. So, yes, Tifa does eventually know the real Cloud, and helps him piece himself back together.

But that doesn't mean he loves her at all. It means that she knows him as a person. But you can know your best friend as a person and not be lovers. :) Just because Tifa knows Cloud, like she knows Barret or Marlene, does not mean that she and Cloud are an item. Cloud's "nothing's really changed" can mean that he himself has not changed; he's still an awkward boy who can't tell people what he's really feeling. It really has nothing to do with how he feels about Tifa. They do grow in the game as friends, and she understands him without words. So she knows he can't explain his feelings well, and that he doesn't want to hurt her. But I think she understands how he feels about Aerith because she does know him.

I completely agree, Madame. Tifa is what, thirteen? when she and Cloud make their promise. I don't know how you guys feel about it, but in my experience thirteen-year-olds aren't the most mature as far as relationships go. (Although, for the record, Aerith was probably a very mature thirteen-year-old. :D.) They usually date people because it's either "the thing to do" or that person is "considered cool". It's not love; just a dabbling in romance, really. So it makes perfect sense that Tifa only likes Cloud because he's this "romantic ideal" now that he's going to join SOLDIER. It's not very good fuel for argument, though.

"More than friends, less than lovers" is all speculation anyway. It can mean anything, but in the end, it's rather meaningless. (Wow, that made no sense. :P) They obviously form a bond of friendship in the game; Cloud relies on Tifa to piece back together his broken memory. (Her doubting him sends him over the edge, after all, and makes him believe that he is a clone.) Tifa grows up and decides to help Cloud instead of withholding information that is vital to his well-being. So they both end up caring about each other, in the end. (I think it would be had not to care about someone who entered your mind and pieced you back together, even if they ignored you in childhood. After all, feelings change, especially when you fight together and survive because of each other.) So they become the friends that we see in AC. They have a working relationship, where Tifa handles the secretarial duties and Cloud runs the business. :) And then Cloud heads off to search for Aerith and put his tortured soul to rest.

Just because she knows he gets into fights really doesn't say much. It's as much a reputation as it is actual knowledge of the person.

Now as far as Tifa getting to know Cloud as good as Aeris did, there's something else that stands in the way there. Tifa already has a preconceived notion of who Cloud is. It's harder to find the truth when you're convinced you already know it.

Aeris didn't have any preconceived notions of who he was.

LOL... Tifa's Cloud-complex. Very clever Wingless... I'll have to remember that one...


Interesting topic, Alan Bates, and good observations everyone. It strikes me though, that regardless of how Cloud may have felt about Tifa (romantic interest or not) he was in an emotional state in the beginning of the game in which he willfully tried to be detached from everyone (Tifa, Barrett, Avalanche, the fate of the world, etc.), which would explain his utter disinterest in helping out Tifa and Avalanche at the time. However, despite this, when he met Aerith, this veneer melted away (Barret to Cloud when ascending the stairs of the Shinra building: "so... even you will fight for something"). Aerith was able to penetrate Cloud's tough outer shell from the first moment she introduced herself, yet Tifa was never fully able to do such a thing.

Anyways, the bottom line is...

If Cloud's feeling for Tifa was love and has been solidified in the course of the game, he would not say "I think I will find her there." while holding the woman he supposedly loves in his arm.

If Cloud has loved Tifa througout the game, he will stay by her side by AC. Especially when he got sick. I don't buy the whole he's just guilty so he can't start a relationship thing... if Cloud has only a superficial feeling for Aerith and not as strong in love for Tifa, her death would only bring them together, as so many CloTis claim during their interpretation of the hand-reaching scene.

And he should not be obligated for Aerith's death if she didn't mean anything to him. In my standpoint as a player, he already should get his forgiveness through killing Sephiroth and saving the Planet from Meteor by the end of the game. IMHO, that should at least help him "move on" with Tifa...

And yet, he doesn't.

I agree Wingless, Lol... I love the idea of Tifa's Cloud-complex! I think Cloud's feelings changed. Tifa may know the real Cloud, his past-present-and future, but not his feelings.

I agree.

The just guilt theory is really a tiny analysis on why Cloud goes in Aerith's Church and goes to other places associated with Aerith. I don't buy it either. When Aerith said it wasn't his fault.... Cloud shouldn't be feeling lament, but he still does. It's just the closeness that Cloud associates with Aerith's presence (dream, Church, lake) that makes it much more than guilt.

Aerith's death bringing Cloud and Tifa together is quite a queer theory also. Why would her death need to bring them together? Well it's 2 yrs later and they haven't been lovers, but they help eachother. Cloud and Tifa's relationship in AC is less than lovers, but more than friends.

Madame Batolli

Good point, Madame Batolli. I took, "Nothing's really changed" to mean that Cloud still feels as awkward around Tifa as he always has, and that he still finds it as difficult as ever to express himself around her... which fits in with your interpretation of it. If Cloud's still feeling awkward around her, then communication between the two of them will still be difficult.

Wingless

Where is there any evidence that Cloud's trying to conceal his identity? And where is there any evidence that Tifa knew that Cloud was at Nibelheim five years before? :unsure:

Does knowing the details of Cloud's life really mean that Tifa knows the real Cloud? Knowing the real Cloud would mean that you understand him and understand what he needs. Tifa's been unable to help Cloud overcome his guilt, she's been unable to help him overcome his depression, and she's been unable to talk him into fighting for his life. Tifa would understand what Cloud needs if Tifa knew the real Cloud. Cloud also kept it secret from Tifa that he's living in the Church and that he has Geostigma. Would Cloud be keeping secrets from Tifa if she really knew him? In that respect, Aerith seems to understand "the real Cloud" better than Tifa because part of knowing someone is understanding them.

Anti-R

Very good point, Anti-R. IF he was in love with Tifa, then Cloud should have been ready to move on after defeating Sephiroth. The defeat of Sephiroth should have been enough for Cloud to put the ordeal of Aerith's death behind him. The fact that Cloud hasn't moved on would indicate that there's more involved than simply finding forgiveness.

Cleara Aura

I think Anti-R means that shared grief would have brought them together.

I'm sorry, Anastar, I probably wasn't very clear. It's hard to get all my thoughts in order. :) Let me address some of your points and see if I can't clear up the reasons for my interpretations. (That's what they are, after all. :))

Cloud knows what happened in Nibelheim, yet he "was not" there, as far as Tifa knows. It is natural for Tifa, who picks him up at the train station, to ask him how he's been and to tell him what's been going on in her own life. She does not know that he was at Nibelheim. I'm sorry if I implied that she did. But, if he talks to her about five years ago, and something slips out that shows he WAS there (which she does not know), he might have to explain that he's a failure. And if he wants to keep the "I was in SOLDIER" lie, he can't mention anything about the past.

Actually, when he meets her, he's already slipping up, because of his confusion. He's not in clear control of his mind, and when she asks how long it's been since they've seen each other, he says "Five years." He's already slipped up. She does not tell him that it's been seven years, of course, but the way she reacts probably worries him. I can see that, if they talk about it and if she asks what happened to him during the time they didn't see each other, his mind could start to go all fuzzy-like. Plus, at some point, he tells her he was in SOLDIER, in order to lead into the beginning of the game where AVALANCHE believes he's a former member of SOLDIER. The whole situation probably makes him uncomfortable, because he's trying to be someone impressive while still concealing facts that he can't remember coherently and/or has blocked out due to the trauma of the mako reactor and Zack's death.

Anyway, there really isn't much that we know about why he chose to say he was in SOLDIER and why he was so set on leaving them, so that's just how I interpret events. :D I don't think he hates her and wants to get away from her because she's cruel or whatever. Because his reaction toward her at the station is positive, so I think the reason he wants to leave has to do with her finding out things she shouldn't find out and cracking his lie. (I don't really know how much of his story he actually believes and how much he doesn't, because the game's not really clear on that.)

As for Tifa knowing the real Cloud... Going by the philosophy that you have to "understand" a person in order to "know" the "real" person, that means that Cloud doesn't know Aerith either. Cloud thought Aerith wanted to give her life for the Planet when she was on the alter, but it is Tifa who understands her and says that that wasn't the case. So if Tifa understands Aerith, (after so short a time), I think it's reasonable to think that maybe she might understand Cloud as well. (I think Cloud understands Aerith as well, but you can never understand ALL of a person; people are unpredictable, even if you think you know everything about them, they'll still throw you for a loop.) Anastar are you trying to say that only lovers understand people, and that friends can't understand them? I think both Aerith and Tifa do understand Cloud; Tifa understands during the final fmv that Cloud chose Aerith, after all. Even if Tifa understands and knows what Cloud needs (I think her dialogue so far shows that she knows he's in pain and is guilt-tripping himself, but that she wishes for more for him), if he runs away from her she can't help him.

And just because Cloud doesn't tell Tifa anything, that doesn't indicate that TIFA does not understand him. That merely indicates that Cloud does not wish to tell Tifa of his whereabouts and may or may not trust her. And if concealing things means you don't know a person, then Cloud does not know Aerith, for she conceals her mental struggle over her Cetra heritage from him. In Cosmo canyon, he wants to help her, for she's obviously in pain, but she pushes him away. Does this mean that Aerith does not love Cloud, because she won't share her pain with him? Of course not. ;p Cloud and Tifa formed a bond of friendship, but there are some things a person has to deal with on his own. I think both Tifa and Aerith understand Cloud's guilt-tripping and want him to forgive himself; they just go about telling him that in different ways. Aerith has no other worry than Cloud; so she can be more gentle. Tifa has children to take care of, so she can't be as gentle with him, since she has a greater emergency than Cloud's mental struggles.

Anyway, sorry if it's still unclear. I just feel that Tifa does understand Cloud, the way friends understand each other. She is his friend, and she has proven that throughout the game. I think Cloud understands her, too, and that they have a wonderful bond of friendship. That doesn't mean he's "in love" with her, but it does mean that they have some sort of bond. I think he loves Aerith more than anyone else, for the pain he feels for failing her is very great, and the pain in his eyes when they stand back to back is heart-rending, since he loves her so much. But we weren't discussing Aerith in here; we were discussing how Cloud and Tifa care for each other. I feel that, through their struggles in the game, they came to a good, solid friendship and understanding of each other. It's possible to understand someone without being their lover. :D

I don't think Cloud was trying to hide any facts. I think he was actually messed up enough to think he was in SOLDIER.

Let's face it, he went though massive trama seeing his entire town burnt to the ground by his childhood idol. The girl he was trying to impresse and the only friend he had were both (nearly) killed by that guy, he was ran completley though with a sword and lifted up in the air by his wounds, THEN he spent the next five years floating in a tank having who-knows-what done to him by Hojo.

The guy wasn't exactly in the right state of mind.

As for Tifa knowing him, I don't think she really did up until they went into the lifestream. She'd convinced herself that she knew him, but her memory was a bit faulty as well. It was more like she knew the guy she thought of as him and was gradually seeing that it wasn't him at all. It noteable towards the beginning of the game when she says that he's changed, but the flashbacks show him acting in pretty much the same way he'd always done.

Cloud, subconsciously, was indeed trying to hide his true past. He was ashamed then, as well as in the past that he had failed to join SOLDIER, and surely that shame remained because once again he's faced with someone from his past that was important to him and he would have had to face the fact he failed. Yes, he did have to deal with a huge trauma, but his sense of failure totally contributed to his will to cover up the truth with someone elses' accomplishments that he could be proud of. He wanted to be someone he wasn't because that person accomplished what he didn't. I don't believe that he purposely lied, but his mental subconscious convinced him to take over this persona (so to speak), the type of persona he always longed to have.

Wingless, I thought you were rather clear, and on many (most) points I agree with you.

I think that Tifa knows as much of Cloud, as a friend knows of other friend. Also, if the friend to be known, has always been showing a mask, or a shield, like Cloud, that said that he only wanted to be strong and famous,ans that also showed himsef as a strong kid, instead of showing himself as he really was, a kid that wanted to have friends, and to be noticed by them, and a kid that was and still is really weak willed.

Tifa only get to knew, the Cloud with the mask, because he never showed how he really was, and is. Unlike with Aerith, with whom, he was really comunicative. With Aerith, he didn't hide his true self, his feelings, if he wanted to laugh, he laughed, if he wanted to cry, he cried, their conversations were espontaneous, and warm, unlike his conversations with Tifa, that seemed to be rather forced, so as cold.

PassiveAggressive, you are my new hero. You said exactly what I wanted to say in fewer words! :)

Alan, I completely agree. :D My point was that, at the time of AC, she as last knows the real Cloud and not the one with the mask. Obviously, she does not know the real Cloud for the majority of the game, since she has a vague memory of him in childhood, and knows only the "persona" which Cloud shows her. So it takes most of the game for her to finally meet and understand the real Cloud. :D I didn't mean to imply that she knew the "real" Cloud from the start. Sorry if it seemed that way. :) I just meant that she gets to know the real Cloud through their experiences together.

Clerith-son, I agree with this as long as only Disc one is taken into consideration. Cloud and Tifa's friendship has a lot of excess baggage, and it makes their initial working together very awkward and difficult. With Aerith, he is spontaneous and free. There is no past history to mar their relationship, nor is there any expectations between them. They are completely free to think only of the future and learn about each other. It's a really heart-warming relationship.

It's in Disc two that I have to disagree with you a little. He does form a normal friendship with Tifa, and his attitude toward her is much warmer than it was at the beginning of the game. (Especially after the lifestream, when they go through such a tough experience together.) So I think they both know each other well enough to be friends, and that there are no longer any hard feelings between them. I think Cloud does, at last, take off his mask for Tifa, and this allows Tifa to finally be a better friend than she was being. But Tifa had to take off her mask too, in order to understand Cloud fully.

Tifa and Cloud had a lot to work out in the game. But Cloud and Aerith had no prior problems and no history, so they could form a wonderful, healthy relationship even with Cloud's persona. And I think Aerith broke through his persona quite a bit, because he always showed his true colors around her. His caring side, and his emotional side, were always a part of his interactions with her. And that's why he'll always love her. She could understand him without him having to take his mask off, for she could see through it anyway. :D And she still thought he was a hero, which was what he needed. And I don't really know where I'm going with this point, except to point out that Aerith is the one in Cloud's heart while Tifa is a friend he can rely on. :D (But then, you all knew that anyway, so it's unncessary to say. :))

Mmm... I really don't want to turn this on a debate, but I have to ask: When and why there ever were hard feelings between Cloud and Tifa? The attitude he had with Tifa, it's the same attitude he had with everyone else but Aerith, and he had no past with anyone of them so, I really don't see your point. :unsure:

Second, Cloud in Disk 1, Disk 2, and Disk 3, was the same Cloud, with the sole difference, that in Disks 2 and 3, he remembered correctly what happened 5 years ago in Nibelheim, and that's all, he never changed, his attitude wasn't warmer for anyone . Yes, Tifa was with him during the Lifestream flashbacks, but that's that, Cloud's attitude never changed. Actually he bacame kind of more silent.

I do agree that Cloud and Tifa are friends, but the fact is that Tifa never get to meet know the real Cloud, not in Disk 1, not in Disk 2, and not in Disk 3, belive me, if she had done so, she would have easily realized Cloud's feelings towards Aerith a lot earlier, and not at the end of the game. :whistle: As I've already said, she knows as much of Cloud, as friend knows of other friend, and if the friend to be known, doen't shows its true self, what the other friend will get to know, is the mask that the friend to be known shows.

I agree. I always found Aeris to very much 'be herself' around Cloud. I suppose lots of people have been acting a bit differently towards Cloud, perhaps fearing him (even if just a bit?) or feeling apprehensive because he was in Soldier? Or perhaps feeling like that have to behave a certain way around him?
Tifa definitely did because she knew that he might ever find out she lied so she has to behave in a way of covering up the real truth whenever necessary - that's not complete honesty.
Aeris however, was just a clean slate and treated Cloud like a 'friend'. The last person I saw treating Cloud like that was Zack.

Tifa just doesn't cut it.

Actually is all the oppossite. Everyone acted normally, like for example: Barret was always bossing around, Jesse, Wedge and Biggs tried to make Cloud feel part of the team, Tifa also tried to make him feel part of the team, as she unsuccesfully tried to flirt with him, Red XIII, so as Vincent were silent, not because of Cloud, but because they were like that, Cid trash talked to everyone (Cloud included) and Yuffie was always a big mouth materia stealer, she didn't acted any differently because of Cloud.

It was Cloud the one who closed himself to others, not the others to him. As I've already said, the only one that Cloud opened himself to, was Aerith, as she did the same thing to him.

To be fair, I'd like to think a very strong friendship between the two was formed in the game itself. And an understanding between Cloud and Tifa and their history, with no lies and deception on their slate.

Now, if only Cloud says some words outside the date mechanism on his real feelings of liking for Tifa, and I would have been partial to them being together... but, there's something that didn't quite clinche it, and I kinda blame it on the "I think I'll meet her there". I tried liking CloTi for the past years, but I just couldn't.

Which is a shame, I feel bad for Tifa. And Cloud doesn't seem to reciprocate her feelings... it reminded me of my sister's experience with a guy in the past two years, and it was difficult for her.

Mmm-hmm, it's hard to try and be just friends with a boy you love. I should know :(

Cloud and Tifa's friendship seems to have waned in AC, though...

But Cloud did think he was there. He just confused his role with Zack's role in the Nibelheim incident. He went into detail about what happened during the Nibelheim incident during the Kalm flashback, for example. Tifa didn't think he was there, so Tifa couldn't understand why he knew so much about what happened during the Nibelheim incident.

No, he told her all about it. His version of the story just didn't coincide with hers. She even said that Cloud told her all about what happened to him after he left Nibelheim during her flashback after the Reunion:

Tifa "Actually, it's been seven years." "You got your wish and joined SOLDIER, quit after the Sephiroth incident, and now you're a mercenary..." "You told me a lot about what happened after you left Nibelheim..." "But..." "...Something's wrong. I felt there was something strange about the things you talked about." "All the things you didn't know that you should. And other things you shouldn't know that you did..." "I wanted to make sure..." "But then I heard... you were going far away..."

Tifa says that Cloud knew all sorts of things that he shouldn't know, which is obviously in reference to the Nibelheim incident. Cloud shouldn't know about it, because he wasn't there - yet he did know about it. Cloud told her all about it, but his memory of it didn't coincide with hers. If anything, Tifa was the one holding back information, like after they arrived in Junon:

(The screen fades in to show Tifa standing in the room. Cloud gets out of bed)
Cloud "Tifa..." "When Sephiroth and I went to Nibelheim, where were you?"
Tifa "...We saw each other, right?"
Cloud "The other time."
(She crosses her arms)
Tifa "No... it was 5 years ago. I don't remember." "But, something seems strange outside. Cloud, come quick."

I agree that he's blocked out part of it due to trauma, but I don't agree that it makes him uncomfortable. Someone with a memory loss isn't deliberately trying to conceal information from other people - they're just trying to conceal something from themselves. Like sexually abused children may have a memory loss of the sexual abuse because it's too traumatic to remember. They may not be able to tell the Police what happened as a result. It's not that they're trying to conceal the information from the Police - they're just trying to forget that it ever happened because it's too painful to remember. They're trying to conceal the information from themselves, rather than from the Police.

The same with Cloud. It's too painful for him to admit the truth of the Nibelheim incident to himself, so he substitutes the memory of his role with Zack's so that he can remember it without pain. It's a way of distancing himself from the traumatic event.

No, I don't think he hates her and is trying to get away from her, either. What I said was that IF he still had a crush on her, I don't think he'd plan on going far away. He'd want to stay right there if he still had a crush on her.

When I say that I don't think that Tifa knew the real Cloud, I mean it in the same way that a wife who's divorcing her husband of 15 years might say, "I never really knew him". Mothers can say the same thing of a daughter or son who commits a horrible crime. Knowing a lot of detail about someone's life doesn't mean that you really know them.

You take my point wrong - I mean that if Cloud felt more understood by Tifa, then he would be more willing to share information with her. It's not a matter of whether Tifa understands, but a matter of whether Cloud feels understood.

The same can be said of the way Cloud reacts to Tifa vs. Aerith in the trailers. Cloud is silent in response to Tifa and averts his eyes as she begs him to fight against Geostigma. Yet, he readily admits his guilt and need for forgiveness to Aerith. As Tifa nags Cloud in the trailer, he keeps his back to her and doesn't respond. But when Aerith tells Cloud in the flower field that she never blamed him, he turns around and tries to see her. The body language itself indicates who Cloud is more receptive towards.

Given that Cloud wants to share personal feelings with Aerith rather than with Tifa such as his need for forgiveness, doesn't that indicate which girl Cloud feels better understood by... and therefore who really knows him better?

I did take your point wrong. Sorry about that, Anastar. I couldn't see what you were trying to say. :) That makes a lot more sense, if it's about whether or not Cloud feels he is understood. I think you're totally right; Cloud doesn't feel that Tifa understands his pain and what he's suffering. That fits well into the story of AC. :) I just think that Tifa does understand him, she just can't get through to him the way Aerith can, that's all. :) But I agree with you on how Cloud feels.

The only problem I have with this is WHEN did Cloud confuse himself with Zack? I mean, Zack was right there beside him for the most part. Did Cloud confuse his role with Zack's after the trauma of Zack's death? I agree, when he told the Kalm flashback, that he went into detail. But I wasn't talking during the game; I was talking during those days prior to the first reactor. I think Tifa being there might have had a little to do with furthering his confusion. Because what reason is there to confuse himself with Zack, really? I don't see a reason, unless it's because somewhere in the back of his mind, his childhood idea to be noticed is still there. But again, I don't know how much being in a tube for five years warped his mind. :) This is just how I interpret Cloud's downhill slide into believing that he was in SOLDIER. You don't have to agree at all. :)

I agree with the idea that he might be pushing all thoughts of it back due to trauma of how much he failed. But Cloud is still Cloud, and he still wants to impress people. So I think him switching his role with Zack's is both trauma and deliberate, due to his personality. He's still trying to be impressive, even with his memory blocked. Tifa's quote seems to be about the in-game events, though. I wonder how much he actually told her in the beginning. Probably not much; he certainly didn't talk about the four years he was stuck in the mako tube. Getting away from her in the beginning makes sense if either she's making the memories come back (such as said childhood promise at the well, which leads to why he chose to join SOLDIER, then why he couldn't make it, etc.) or if her confusion over his role is causing him to doubt himself. Either way, it would make him uncomfortable, I think.

As for AC, I don't know. We haven't seen all of the dialogue between Cloud and Tifa yet, so I don't know if he feels understood by her or not. I think he has a lot of different kinds of feelings for Tifa, where as his feelings for Aerith are very straight-forward. There are a lot of other things that go with Tifa, such as failing to save the children, disappointing a friend, etc. All things that are important to Cloud. But I agree, that since Cloud feels like Aerith understands him better, then that means she does. :)

In the trailers, in the movie itself (a movie anyone has yet to see in full) Aeris is dead. It's a lot easier for anyone to be more responsive to a dead person that they want forgiveness from. It's guilt that's led him to where he is, so it makes sense that he'd admit at the chance of possibly being forgiven. Apart from this, wouldn't you agree it's hard to accept the truth? I think that's what's going on in the trailer. Tifa is telling him something that might be making him feel more guilty, and perhaps with good reason. Cloud has been running away and Tifa is making him face it. I don't find it at all to be nagging either. She's only firmly stating what needs to be said, and what he needs to face.

You can't base his need for understanding on his conversation with someone no longer living. And isn't the forgiveness he's seeking from Aeris? The whole "I let you die" kind of thing makes me think that. The trailer isn't a matter of who knows who better, and I don't really think it's fair to judge off of that.

That could work... except Cloud had that forgiveness talk with Vincent, who wasn't dead, too...

Which makes me wonder really, since the game never showed him being that buddy buddy with the former Turk. Until Kitase mentioned they were similar in a lot of ways.

Still, I find it strange that he didn't seem to say that to Tifa on what really bugs him, one of his closest friends... or it will be there in the actual movie.

We should also think in terms of sequence and characterization. If he completely opened up to Tifa and such, I don't think the story would progress like it's suppose to. His conversation with Tifa seems to have come to pass before his conversation with Vincent and Aeris. Characters in stories usually feel a certain way in the beginning, and that feeling changes due to the events of the story. Cloud cut off most contact from others, and toward the beginning of the story probably stopped talking almost entirely. As the story were to progress, he'd open up, admit his problems to himself if not to others, and make some sort of change.

That reminds me, Cloud DID say something to Tifa. He did say something along the lines of feeling like he can't protect anyone. I think that's opening up in some form. If I make little to no sense I apologize, I just woke up so I'm stopping now.

Wingless

No problem... I didn't verbalize it well. :blush:

I don't think Cloud ever confused his identity with Zack. Cloud never thought he was from Gongaga, and Cloud never acted like the friendly, amiable, and extroverted character that Zack was. I think that Cloud merely substituted Zack for himself in a memory that was painful to him to recall. It's a way of distancing yourself from a memory, and it occasionally happens in cases of post traumatic stress. It's less painful to recall what happened if you remember the events through the eyes of someone else. We talked about that more here: Cloud is Zack

But the memory displacement won't work unless Cloud is a SOLDIER. Now, even though Cloud was never accepted into SOLDIER, he was injected with Jenova cells and given Mako infusions in Hojo's lab like any other SOLDIER. So Cloud was actually made into a SOLDIER, even though he never joined it. Again, it's easier to remember being accepted into SOLDIER than to remember being one of Hojo's lab rats.

The theory of Cloud being uncomfortable only works if Tifa had confronted him with the truth, but she never did. She withheld the truth from him until the Lifestream Event.

PassiveAggressive

I think it'd actually be harder. For example, it's easier to tell Susan that you lied to Jackie than it is to admit that you lied to Jackie. It's always more difficult to admit your fault to the person who was actually injured. So if anything, it should be easier for him to admit his guilt to Tifa. And as Anti-R stated, Cloud discloses his need for forgiveness to Vincent. Who would understand Cloud's need for forgiveness better than Vincent, who has been in a similar position? Again, I see it as a matter of Cloud feeling understood, rather than a matter of who understands him better.

i think aerith is a big barrier for them not to be together

Yea alive or not, she will always be in the way.