to be honest, i feel a bit naive becoz i dont feel as if i know the whole thing with vincent with lucrecia.:huh: you guys have made me understand it abit more, from reading the forums that some of you have started. i know that lucrecia went off with hojo, and that vincent tried to kinda stop what was happening(have i got that right?), and then she died giving birth to sephy,and then he met her in the water fall, where he got death penalty and chaos, but what i dont get is-----lucrecia is supposed to be dead, but he met her at the waterfall! did he like, see her spirit or something??? i just totally dont get it all, and maybe you could try to explain???


if there is another thread on this, or i should have posted in another chatroom, sorry. :unsure:

Lucrecia didn't die giving birth to Sephy. When Vincent finds Lucrecia under the waterfall, this is part of the conversation:

Vincent "Lucrecia... You're alive..."
Lucrecia "I wanted to disappear... I couldn't be with anyone... I wanted to die..." "But the Jenova inside me wouldn't let me die..."

....

Lucrecia "Vincent... Won't you please tell me?"
Vincent "......What?"
Lucrecia "If Sephiroth is still alive?" "I heard that he died five years ago. But I see him in my dreams so often..." "And I know that physically, like myself, he can't die so easily." "Please, Vincent, tell me......"

So Lucrecia was alive when Vincent found her under the waterfall.

ah right. gotcha. its just that ive seen a few debates whether or not shes alive. it got me confused. :) thanxxx anastar! :moogle:

You're welcome...

I've seen debate about whether or not she's still alive. Maybe that's what you saw? :unsure:

i cant remember. all i know is, it got me confused! lol :blink:

Well... whaddya think? Is she still alive or she's already dead? ^_^'

is that question to me? well, thanxx to anastar, for un-confusing me, i think that lucrecia is alive, but not alive, if you know what i mean.maybe she is alive, but her spirit is like...gone. because of sephiroth, and the fact that hes alive, maybe whats keeping lucrecia alive aswell. because they both have jenova cells, so they are joined, as are all the clones, and maybe even cloud. (im just suggesting stuff, like debating on what is going on.)

cut a long story short, i think that lucrecia is physically alive, but spiritually, shes prolly dead. :unsure:

The question is for everyone to answer (yes, including you and me or whoever ^_^), since I'm confused myself whether she's alive or dead or whatever...
I just want to hear what other people would have to say about this matter. ^_^'

A really big Vincent fan on this forum was posting months ago in some thread that the game showed Lucrecia dying in the waterfall cave. :ermm: I was like... huh? Did I miss something? :lol: That one confused me. :unsure:

It's hard to say whether she's alive or dead now. The Jenova cells in her make her more resistant to death, so she could easily be alive. As she said to Vincent, "But the Jenova inside me wouldn't let me die..." She wasn't shown going to the Reunion in FFVII, where she would have died if she had gone. It's possible that she gets Geostigma, too.

When Vincent found her in the waterfall cave, she said she wanted to die. That means that she wouldn't do anything to keep herself alive. We don't know what happened to her afterwards, so we just don't know. Maybe we'll learn in DoC? :unsure:

lets hope so. :)

I really dislike fics that makes Lucrecia into an evil person "She asks Sephy first so she doesn't care about Vinny" and "she gives Death Penalty and Chaos that shows she wants Vince to turn into a monster" theory...

The way Vincent talk about her, either he was that huge a lovesick idiot that he conviniently overlooked all the wrongs she did. Or we have to take Vincent's words into account, and can safely concluded that she was a very special person in his heart, and that circumstances beyond their control allowed made it impossible to happen.

I do not know why Lucrecia chose Hojo (actually am hoping latter makes appearance in DoC... he does have Jenova cells too), but I'm sure it'll be tackled in the game.

Just wait for DoC to come out. Square said they will explain that whole story more and hopefully they will make a nice conclusion of it. ^_^

I agree that Lucrecia's not an evil person, but I do think that her asking about Sephiroth and never about Vincent is one thing that shows she didn't return Vincent's feelings about her. She even tells Vincent to "stay back" when he tries to approach her, and she never asks how he is or how he's doing, etc. That doesn't make her evil - it just says to me that she doesn't reciprocate Vincent's feelings about her.

*sigh* poor vinny :vincent:

i dont think lucrecia is evil maybe she was pressured to go out with hojo??? because he had alot of power, and if she said no, then...i dont know. :ermm:

Vincent doesn't ask her how she's doing either. Though his eagerness to run towards her could be a sign of concern. Plus he did tell her that Sephiroth is dead. Then again Lucrecia was "wanting to die", so maybe her asking Vincent to stay back was a form of self-loathing in her part...

Then again, I did remember both of them holding hands, Lucrecia tears away from him and run off, so maybe "she doesn't return his feelings" is plausible.

Anyway, very few info on Lucrecia's character! I guess we'll find out.

They were holding hands, yes... but then Vincent offers her a gift in a very small ring-sized box. She shakes her head vigorously and runs away from Vincent. Next, we see Lucrecia kissing Hojo on the street in front of Vincent. Then we see Lucrecia pregnant in the Shinra mansion. Hojo says later in the game that he was Sephiroth's father, so he was the one who got Lucrecia pregnant.

I don't know why women find Hojo attractive. He's nothing but an ugly creep to me. :lol: But there were three women in bikini's hanging all over him on the beach in Costa del Sol, too. For some reason, Lucrecia refused Vincent and got into a relationship with Hojo. She seemed to be in it willingly because she was kissing Hojo on the street. Since Lucrecia refused Vincent, we have to assume that she didn't return Vincent's feelings. Her behavior to Vincent in the cave didn't suggest that she had any feelings for him, either.

Money and power are attractive to some women! I think it would apply to these cases with Hojo. But in Lucrecia's case, I think she was willing to give her life for her work. She was a major workaholic. And if it meant being with Hojo for the sake of her duties, she would do it. I am sure deep down inside of her, she had feelings for Vincent. But her work was more important in her mind.

You're saying that she turned her back on Vincent for the sake of progress in her research?!? :unsure: To me, if making progress in your research is more important to you than someone you supposedly love, then your love for them isn't sincere. She rejected Vincent and threw herself into Hojo's arms. If she could do that to Vincent, then I can't see that she truly loved him.

There's a line in the game that made me really doubt that...

Vincent: Hojo... what a queer fellow. Such utter lack of scientific talent compared with the genius of Dr. Gast. Lucrecia chose him trying to protect him. Now I understand... I understand... but...

People react to love differently and people have different ideas about how important love is. It is very easy for me to think that Lucrecia didn't really have a life of her own because to her, work was her life. And if something got in the way of that, it would become an issue. I don't think she knew how to deal with feelings outside of her work. Maybe she didn't even know what love truely was? I seriously doubt she loved Hojo and if she didn't have feelings for Vincent, I don't think this whole situation between Vincent and Lucrecia would be as big as it is.

*listening to this conversation very intersetedly*

i have no comment. im trying to under stand more... :o

Lucrecia's not bad. She was just blinded by... her work?
She was a scientist and it's like she just exchanged Vincent to participate in the JENOVA project because it could've been urgent... and it's for ShinRa. And she could have been a dedicated ShinRa employee so she's doing everything in the name of science and ShinRa, but she never realized that it could be the biggest mistake of her life. :(

Lucrecia dying in the waterfall... I don't think so. I think she's still alive because of the JENOVA in her that won't let her die easily... just like Sephiroth.

But hear this: my boyfriend told me that she wouldn't die unless Sephiroth dies... is that true? :unsure:

AARGH! SOMEBODY DELETE THIS POST:

Lucrecia's not bad. She was just blinded by... her work?
She was a scientist and it's like she just exchanged Vincent to participate in the JENOVA project because it could've been urgent... and it's for ShinRa. And she could have been a dedicated ShinRa employee so she's doing everything in the name of science and ShinRa, but she never realized that it could be the biggest mistake of her life. :(

Lucrecia dying in the waterfall... I don't think so. I think she's still alive because of the JENOVA in her that won't let her die easily... just like Sephiroth.

But hear this: my boyfriend told me that she wouldn't die unless Sephiroth dies... is that true? :unsure:

[SHAMELESS WHORING OF JENOVA PROJECT CLUB]

Now with that out of the way...

I actually agree with Anastar that I couldn't see a definite reciprocated love between Lucrecia and Vincent. I do believe that they were close and shared a bond (Vincent's not the type to fall in love easily and it seems that he was pretty confident that she would accept him romantically), but I think for Lucrecia, it really did go only as far as friendship. Which is doubly tragic for her, to have passed real love by.

As squicky as some people may find it, each time I play the game, I strongly get the impression that she wanted to be with Hojo. She firmly rejects Vincent and when they're reunited in the Crystal Cavern she doesn't react like a woman seeing her lost love again after decades of seperation, pain and misery - Sephiroth is her primary concern. Vincent isn't even shocked by her distancing him and her unwillingness to accept him into her life, which tells me that he really wasn't expecting Lucrecia to run into his arms, or that they shared a love that could redeem the past. In the flashback, we're only shown the vitally important scenes - we see Vincent and Lucrecia develop a platonic relationship (foundations of his strong feelings for her), but we also see that when he tries to change the relationship into a romantic one she refuses him, and then we cut to her kissing Hojo. Vincent then says that if she's happy he doesn't mind...why would he say that if he didn't honestly believe that she's happy? He only intervenes later when the experiments begin - he doesn't oppose the relationship at all, which says to me that even though it hurts him, he knows what she wants, and it isn't him. I think Vincent has always known that Lucrecia doesn't feel the same way about him, and still knows that during the Crystal Cavern sequence.

But what does he have to pressure her with?

Whatever her reasons were, they're most definitely NOT the same reasons the Costa del Sol girls have. The Costa girls are a joke, wheras Lucrecia is an important character. The Costa girls seemed impressed by the fact that he was a powerful Shinra employee and a brilliant scientist. Seeing as Lucrecia was a Shinra employee and esteemed scientist herself (not to mention that she probably knew dozens of others - like Professor Gast, for example), I doubt that those qualities in Hojo would've swayed her that much, apart from giving them something in common.

Anti-R actually provided a very interesting quote earlier:

Vincent: Hojo... what a queer fellow. Such utter lack of scientific talent compared with the genius of Dr. Gast. Lucrecia chose him trying to protect him. Now I understand... I understand... but...

What Vincent meant by that is up to speculation, but why would Lucrecia want to protect Hojo is she didn't care for him? It can't just be because she's such a nice person, because of the extreme measures she was willing to go to. It's especially unlikely if she also had a young man she loved much more suffering because of her 'protecting' Hojo.

I think Hojo must have been noticeably less creepy than in the current timeframe (apart from having no qualms about highly unethical experiments on his wife/partner and unborn child, and then experimenting on Vincent, of course) because what intelligent woman would put her trust in an absolute maniac? While he was clearly about to snap (judging from what happened to poor Vincent), he must have hid it well, at least until it was too late for Lucrecia.

Agree 100%.

I agree with you that Lucrecia was definitely devoted to her work and was seduced into making a terrible mistake because of it. However, even though I agree that her own desire as a scientist motivated her, it don't think it was all that motivated her. The problem with that is why did the science-team choose Lucrecia? Lucrecia is an assistant to the highly respected Professor Gast, so she's undoubtedly a brilliant woman, with a great deal of potential. Why would the scientists risk dangerous experiments on a valuable colleague? Why not any random woman? Why a member of their team, who has never borne a child before? And why would taking part in the experiment necessitate ending a relationship with Vincent? Why does she have to be with Hojo? Why kiss him in the street? There are other ways of inseminating a woman which don't involve foreplay. :lol:

Hojo also says that he offered the woman with his child to the Jenova Project (to paraphrase), which suggests that Lucrecia was pregnant before the Project developed the way it did, not that the Project demanded that she carry a child. If anything, I think his words suggest that Lucrecia's pregnancy might've been what pushed the Project further because it gave the scientists a perfect specimen.

The way the whole thing seems to play out to me is that Lucrecia and Hojo are already a couple (Lucrecia having previously rejected Vincent and chosen Hojo) when Lucrecia just happens to fall pregnant. Hojo takes advantage of this, and introduces the idea of taking the Jenova Project a step further, and Lucrecia agrees because of her own scientific ambition, her devotion to her work, and her trust in Hojo that she won't be at risk, and possibly the fact that Lucrecia wants to make Hojo happy. Because both parents are consenting to this experiment, a more ethical scientist like Gast is powerless to stop it, especially when it's in Shinra's interest that the experiment goes ahead. And the rest is history. :cry:

It's only big because of Vincent - of his feelings and his words. Lucrecia says nothing that equals the passion of his words to and about her. Every time he tries to get close to her, she refuses him, and he appears to understand and accept that. The moments involving Vincent and Lucrecia all explore his feelings, not hers. She's tender towards Vincent by asking him about Sephiroth and revealing her feelings about not being a true mother, but despite the closeness I don't see a reciprocated love between them. Just because Vincent loves her deeply, we can't assume based on this that she automatically returns his feelings.

Who knows, this could be totally reworked for Dirge of Cerberus, but as of FFVII, I don't believe that Lucrecia was in love with Vincent.

i didnt realise you had a club on it, hyper! sign me up there! :)

these are really interesting points, hyper. you know your stuff. :)
as i said before, i dont really know it, so thats why is started this thread. i cant get my head round it, :huh: but now im beginning to see the story clearer. ^_^

I'll sign you up with pleasure, AR! ^_^

It's actually one of the less-known clubs (I think) so I wasn't really surprised that you didn't know it existed. That's what my shameless whoring was all about! :angel:

Thank you very much, AR! :huggle:

If you don't mind me going on a bit more; I'd like to share a few more thoughts on this. Another thing that convinces me that Lucrecia loved Hojo rather than Vincent is that in the Cavern she refers to her own sins. She couldn't call herself a real mother to Sephiroth because of the choices she made for him, for allowing him to be born as an experiment, and she feels that that is her sin. My point is that how can it be a sin if she was forced into it somehow? If she was forced into giving Vincent up, carrying Hojo's child and participating in the Jenova Project; if Hojo or Shinra had some sort of power over her that forced her to take that path, then how has she sinned if she isn't responsible for her own actions? If she has no free will she may be forced into doing wrong, but she still doesn't choose to do wrong. I think that the point of her sin, her tragedy, is that she choose her own fate and made her own decisions: she chose Hojo, and she consented to make an experiment of their unborn child. She may have had some pressure on her to consent (from Hojo), but she also had pressure on her to refuse involving her child (from Vincent). Again, she chooses Hojo. If full freedom of choice is taken away from her, then she's absolved of blame. Her sin is significantly lessened. And to me the Jenova Project shows a group of people who have all sinned, and are all partly to blame for the consequences of their actions.

The real victim in all this is Sephiroth, of course. He's the only one that made no decision at all, that had no control, who couldn't change anything, had no say in the matter and was denied a normal birth and a loving family. :cry:

Something else I thought I ought to clarify: Just because I think that Lucrecia loved Hojo and not Vincent doesn't mean that I think she's an evil person! :no: She's just a woman who made the wrong choice, that's all, and suffered for it. I'm sure many of us have made mistakes when it comes to romance. It's only human. It's not her fault that she didn't reciprocate Vincent's feelings, or that she cared for a man who later turned out to be unworthy (makes Hojo all the more dark to me knowing that no, the love of a good woman is not enough to redeem him). She's human, and she made a terrible mistake. And the world doesn't revolve around Vincent - no matter how strongly he felt, if she didn't feel the same then she shouldn't be blamed for it, no matter how much heartbreak he felt. It's not as if she strung him along or anything. She's not totally innocent, nor is she a victim, but I strongly believe that Lucrecia was a genuinely good woman, perhaps too compassionate, idealistic, devoted and trusting for her own good. :sad:

That's fantastic! ^_^ Feel free to ask any more questions (here or in the club) if there are things you aren't sure about. It's a very ambiguous subplot, and very few facts are known, most of this is entirely up to speculation. Ask away if you feel confused! :gift:

Hojo doesn't strike me as very nice or caring person, but I belibe he could be a very charismatic person. He seems to have a very solid almost over powering personalioty at times. he could probably talk a person into just about anything he set his mind to.

i agree. i think you can teel from the boss fight with him, he can turn nasty.
welcome by the way, alan. ^_^

I think his actions towards Vincent thirty years ago are more than enough proof that he's a little...unhinged. :wacko:

I agree that Hojo probably overwhelmed Lucrecia with his logic when leading her into the Project, but I still think Lucrecia wouldn't have been easily convinced if he was obviously psychotic, sadistic, and openly didn't care for her safety or life at all, so long as she carried the baby to term. How could anyone go along with that? :unsure:

As for Hojo's relationship with Lucrecia, I don't think his feelings come close to the intensity, selflessness and conventionality of Vincent's feelings. But then again, some women out there really do find much more in having just a little affection from an otherwise cold and loveless man, than in all the passion and conventional, healthy love of someone more normal and emotionally stable. Sad, but true.

It makes me wonder why Hojo claimed on the Sister Ray: "I... was defeated by my desire to become a scientist. I lost the last time as well." What did he lose? Out of everyone involved in the Jenova Project, he's the one who came out on top. He's profited whilst everyone else has suffered, died or worse. So, what was his loss? If it's Lucrecia he's referring to then it could also explain that little breakdown he has in the flashback confrontation with Vincent, presumably shortly after Lucrecia's death/disappearence. -_-

wow. i never saw that. so, do you think he probably cared for her? but why did he do an awful thing, making her pregnant and and keeping her from vinny, and not really caring at the time? help, im confused! :blink:

I suppose that'll be a valid reasoning. I never did understand why Lucrecia would pick Hojo. Over Vincent! :vincent: Judging from looks alone, I'd say there's not much of a fight. It's probably a case where love was illogical. Lucrecia simply loved Hojo and not Vincent. Wonder if she still loves him.

Interesting quote indeed. It actually helps me to see a more human side to Hojo. Does it mean that he regrets some of his actions and is, even a teeny weeny bit, remorseful? If not, why does he use the words 'defeated' and 'lost'? But seeing as it's Hojo, I don't think that he's capable of being remorseful now.

Oops, sorry for double posting, but I accidentally clicked twice. Sorry!