A few people have brought up things about the Final FMV in the thread about FMV = Reciprocated Love, so I thought I'd start a new topic on the Final FMV.

I always felt that Tifa was sorta inviting herself along, too. But I also felt that Tifa did that several times during the game - it was sorta typical of her to do that, in my opinion. Like when Cloud decided to go after Aerith in the Shinra building, Tifa said:

Tifa "You're going after Aerith, right?"
Cloud "Yeah."
Tifa "I'm going with you."

In the Forgotten City in Disk Two when Cloud's party goes there with Bugenhagen, Tifa does the same sort of thing when Cloud vows to finish what Aerith started:

Cloud "Aerith... I'll do the rest."
Tifa "You mean, WE..."

Also, if you don't have Tifa in the party as the group approaches the Northern Crater, Tifa comes running on screen and begs Cloud to let her be in the party because Sephiroth ruined her life, too. It seems to me that "inviting herself along" is just part of Tifa's character.

I agree. He'd just rescued Tifa from falling head first into the Northern Crater, but he doesn't even bother to ask if she's alright. He doesn't even look at Tifa. Instead, he just talks about Aerith. If my boyfriend rescued me, didn't bother to ask how I was, and then started talking about another girl, I'd know darn well what that meant. :lol:

The thread about FMV = Reciprocated Love points out that romantic moments tend to be shown in FMV in Final Fantasies. I've always found the hand reach scene to be an example of a romantic moment shown in FMV, because I think the hand reach scene is far more romantic than the Highwind scene. To me, the hand reach scene showed Cloud's desire to be with Aerith again. He then says, "I think I can meet her... there", which meant to me that he wants to find Aerith again. Cloud was also shown searching for Aerith in Kingdom Hearts and says that he must go to the Promised Land in FF Tactics, which reinforce that meaning of his words.

Any other thoughts on the Final FMV, what it means for CloudxAerith, and how it argues against CloudxTifa?

Well, I think you've said most of what I was thinking, Aly. The hand reach scene and the fact that Cloud speaks only of Aerith (even when he is with Tifa) pretty much clinched it for me. ^_^

I've heard Cloti's say that if you play that game from a "Cloti" viewpoint, Cloud and Tifa's exchange during the final FMV is nothing more than "remembrance of a dead friend". But if they were just "remembering" Aerith, why did Cloud talk of meeting her again in the Promised Land? Why did he speak of her, as chaos rained all around them and he had just rescued Tifa? Hanging precariously on a cliff is an odd place to merely "remember" someone, much more speak of her so longingly.
It was always clear to me. He saw Aerith, hope filled his face, he reached for her, he snapped back to reality...and then he dreams of meeting her again in the Promised Land. They could argue that what he said was just spur-of-the-moment because he was inches near death or whatever reason they might come up with...so how come years later, Cloud is still grieving for Aerith, and he states that meeting her is his dream?

Anastar:

During the game, Tifa did invite herself along several times. More than anything though, I saw the main point of her reply, during the final FMV, as an "understanding/acceptance" of Cloud's decision. I don't think she was literally trying to invite herself along.

"yeah...let's go meet her.", in this case, is the same thing to me as an "I support your idea, because I understand how you feel. You should go meet her, Cloud...".

One of Tifa's weakness is that she's always depending on the others for encouragement and assurance. Her reply here, I think, also indicates how she's trying to overcome that weakness...by being the one to assure herself: "Even though Cloud doesn't love me, I'll be okay..."
"...let's go meet her" would be a much better way to say "I agree that you should go meet her", anyway, if one was trying to assure oneself that she would be strong regardless of his decision.

From what we know of AC so far, Cloud is the only one in deep depression. Everyone else, including Tifa, has seemed to move on with life. The idea that at the end of the game, Tifa had literally wanted to go meet Aeris with Cloud, isn't really consistent with what we've seen in AC. Meeting Aeris doesn't seem to be on her list of priorities as it is with Cloud's. Neither have we seen her tagging after him to go meet her. He's been living in solitude for the past two years...and this reinfoces the idea that HE wants to go meet her.

Ah, yes...Cloti logic.... *rolls eyes*
They're also the ones who believe Cloud had chosen Tifa...and that he'd found closure with Aeris. Too bad AC had to go 'n prove these interpretations wrong. I find that Cloti interpretations are usually quite shallow and are more literal in terms. I question their interpretations because, Square being the maker of the game, I find it hard to believe the creator's had intended things to be this shallow: the final FMV, which should be very important, was just basically to show that Cloud, Tifa, and companions shall always "remember" their dear friend Aeris. I doubt it... <_<

True, Kusari. Clotis like to argue that Cloud had been in a dangerious situation, hence, it's why he'd grabbed onto her hand, and she'd helped him by pulling him into reality...and then she'd led him straight into Tifa's arms... <_<
Cloud was trying to reach for her hand first. Also at that moment, he wasn't even aware of the danger at hand...so how, then, was he trying to reach for Aeris' hand to escape from danger? If he was trying to escape...shouldn't he have been trying to reach for one of his companions' hand (let's say Tifa's...) insted of a dead girl's hand?

To me, the hand reach scene there represents hope and yearning. He wants to go find her, but he doesn't know where. Her hand reaching out from the lifestream to meet his was THE ANSWER the Planet gave him: that he could go meet her in the Promised Land. I think a question that remained at the end of the game was HOW and IF he gets there. I'm still hoping AC will answer this.

But to the Cotis, it doesn't matter that they're talking about Aerith, Heck, I'm not sure if some of them even read the freaking subtitles. <_< As far as they are considered, phyisical love ruled ove spiritual love, so as long as he was holding her, they could have been exchanging "Yo Mamma" jokes, and NO ONE would know the difference. :P

A very good example of how shallow a Cloti mind can be. They're always arguing that the final FMV hand reach between Cloud and Aeris scene isn't any different than Cloud reaching out to catch Tifa's hand. *gasps* They both result in hand holding between the hero and the girl!!! <_<

They can't seem to comprehend that there was a difference between the two. Aeris wasn't in any danger. Cloud's reach for her hand was strictly a desire/yearning to see her again. Tifa's situation was very different. She was about to fall off the cliffside and die. Cloud would have tried to save any of his companions. His statement AFTER having rescued Tifa should have clarified all this "confusion". It reinforces his desire/yearning to go meet Aeris. It says nothing romantic in nature for Tifa.

Over at AC.net, Vileath (Hitoshura) brought up something concerning Cloud and Tifa's statements during the final FMV that puzzled me. I was wondering if anyone could confirm or clarify it. He/she claims not to be interested in the LT, but he/she has been arguing pro-Cloti. I can't remember the name of the book, but Vileath says that in a book published by one of Square's very own publishers, there was a statement in there saying that Cloud and Tifa desired to go meet their lost ones together. It seems we Clerises have interpreted the lines there wrong about Cloud wanting to go meet Aeris alone as his "I" statment had indicated. Vileath offered a link, but it was in Japanese, and my computer doesn't read Jap. Is anyone familiar with this? I'll go over to AC.net and find the exact post with the link and the name of the book.

Angelic has said almost everything I would like to say regarding the final FMV.
A simple conclusion:
Clerises' interpretation of the final FMV is in line with what has been shown in AC so far, in line with all the supporting roles in cameo games, in line with the merchandize released by SE.

Clotis' interpretation of the final FMV has not been supported in anyway thus far.

Honestly, I don't know why this debate can go on for so long because if this were a court case, Clerises would have won the case by a landslide.

I am not so sure about the book you are talking about Angelic, but still, what we have been given in AC so far totally doesn't support the idea that Cloud AND Tifa went happily together to search for the promised land.

I'm sure most of you have read Angel Tifa's thoughts on the ending, but I'll quote her and make my points anyway.

Of course if it was with Aeris it would be in a dream world. <_<

I really, REALLY doubt Nobuo did the music like that for that reason.

Not many of the Clerises said that he wanted to marry her and raise a family. I agree, the real Cloud didn't really know Aeris, but hell, the real Cloud's still been tearing himself up for two years after the game!

Alos, I seem to remember Clotis were the ones who went 'OMG CLOUD AND TIFA ARE MARRIED AND MARLENE IS THEIR KID"

I'm tempted to say "delusional" here. Even when I was 12, finishing FFVII for the first time, (and hadn't gotten involved in the Love Triangle) I ALWAYS saw that scene as Tifa resigning herself. She knew that Cloud was still thinking of Aeris, but since Aeris was one of her best friends, she also wanted to meet her too.

And what the hell? Tifa has NOT been by Cloud's side since the beginning. Who ignored Cloud when they were kids? Tifa. Who wanted to be saved by him, but only if he got famous? Tifa. I know Clotis want to believe it, but Cloud and Tifa were not childhood friends. Yes, they are friends as adults. But you can't say Tifa's been by his side since the beginning if she hasn't been.

<_< If you call transitioning bars a combining theme of Cloud and Tifa's luuuuuv, sure. Again, I don't think Nobuo read that far into it when he was composing the music.

Well, we know that. Haven't changed in 4 years.... still pushing your opinions on others because YOU are the only person who interpreted FFVII the correct way.

Nitpicker. omfg tha doesn't mean anything. :D

I'm sure Cloud didn't want Tifa to go flying out the side of the Highwind.... maybe that's why he grabbed onto her hand?

Oh, and if Cloud standing by Tifa means something, why is it always "OMFG MARKETING PLOY" if Cloud and Aeris are EVER standing together anywhere or on anything?

Slower:

We can't forget that all artwork, cameo games, and any merchandize/commercials released by Square indicating Cleris were only for marketing ploy. Not only that, but they ENJOY lying about Cloud and Aeris' relationship. Oh yes...and Clotis don't need anything outside of the game to support their pairing. The game, itself, had pointed Cloti, ya see... <_<

As for Angel Tifa's thoughts, I'd like to point out some things as well:

Again, I'll point out that Cloud reaches for Aeris' hand FIRST. He sees the lifestream, reaches up to find her hand...and then, she reaches down for him. It represents a desire/yearning to meet/find her. His statement afterward confirms this.

I think not. The intention of this scene is exactly what Cloud states. It was the Planet's answer to him. It told him where he would be able to meet Aeris: The Promised Land, which is associated with the lifestream...why we saw her hand reach out to him from it.

Tifa's a symbol of love? That's a first. <_<
Sure, I'll buy the idea that Tifa's hand did pull him back into reality...but that says nothing about who HE loves. What does tell me who loves is the fact that, right after he saves Tifa, he's speaks his desire of meeting Aeris in the Promised Land.

It's clear as day to me this is who Clotis WISH Cloud would see and pay attention to. Oh dear...let's just keep ignoring Cloud's statement (HIS wish), and keep interpreting things the way we wish it to be.

Tifa looks up at him, sadly (in my opinion), and then lowers her head down saying "Yeah, let's go meet her.". Perhaps miss Angel Tifa missed this part of the game.

Again...it's exactly as Cloud states: He wants to go meet her in the Promised Land. He wants to see her again. Cameo games have him searching for her, and there's the fact that two whole years later, Cloud falls into a deep state of depression. Neither has he found her or the Promised Land. I see a very possible connection between his depression, and the fact that he hasn't been able to find her. Also, there's no direct implication that he wants to marry her and start a family...but love can sure lead to that, yes? :D

I'll keep stressing that Cloud has always been Cloud. The phrase: Cloud needed to find his "real" self, refers to the fact that he needed to overcome his fear of failure and accept the fact that he was never a first class SOLDIER. Aeris' statement during their date (of wanting to meet HIM), in my opinion, could very well mean that she has a romantic interest in him, OR...that she has a desire for Cloud to be the Cloud in his healthy mental state: free of role confusion, free of his fears... :cleris:

Although she doesn't know anything about his past, her bond with him was strong enough to allow her to sense that there was something wrong.

Since the beginning when? Yes, quite delusional indeed. And so Tifa was so happy that Cloud wanted to go meet another girl...fine. I thought she'd accepted his decision...in a sad way...but I don't think she was exactly HAPPY for him. :lol:

Yes, she has accepted his decision, and no matter what happens, she'll continue to stand by his side and support him as his friend, because she has finally and fully understood his feelings. He wants to go search for Aeris...

Oh please... :lmao:
Now she's acting like she's some pro musician who can communicate with Mr. Uematsu's music.

So Cloud feels the need to, once again, save one of his companions from dying. Your point? What I've bolded out reminds me of something a Cloti had brought up in a debate: Cloud and Tifa are meant to be, and he chose her!!! It was very clear, because at the end, you see Tifa's face right before Cloud's...and Aeris' face was shown last.

OMG... "gasps". You're so right!!! Ums...wait...Aeris' face was shown last? It's crytal clear that it was indicating she'd won the love triangle. *giggles*

Nothing in AC seems to be supporting a Cloti interpretation of the game's ending. I'm not sure how they can keep arguing.

Slower:

I agree...but I'm just curious if Square really did make such a statement. I'll try to put up Vileath's post later on tonight.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. Yes, I can see where it would be easier for Tifa to express her acceptance/understanding in that way. She does respond in similar ways in other parts of the game, though. I can't say what her motivations are, but I do see similar behavior from Tifa in other parts of the game.

I agree with you completely. Very well said, Angelic.

Vilaeth talked about that with me... the book was published by Digicube. I'm not sure how much input Square itself had into this book, and I don't think Vilaeth has a copy of the book. The pronouns were left out in the Japanese version of this entire passage:

"I think I'm beginning to understand
An answer from the Planet...
The Promised Land...
I think I can meet her... there..."

The Japanese version doesn't offer any pronouns at all. However - as I understand it - the subject remains constant in Japanese unless otherwise specified. Cloud is the implied subject of the first sentence in the passage, since it's pretty obviously Cloud who received an answer from the Planet. Cloud wouldn't say, "I think we're beginning to understand" or "We think we're beginning to understand" . The understanding is personal to Cloud, which means that "I" is the subject of the first sentence. If "I" is the subject of the first sentence, that means that "I" remains the subject in the rest of the passage.

Besides, as STA pointed out, it's the only meaning of the passage that corresponds to what was portrayed in both FF Tactics and Kingdom Hearts. It also corresponds to what was written in AC Monthly over Cloud and Aerith's picture last July ("Meeting her again. That is my dream"). Clorith has told me that Square is the source of information for Japanese magazines such as Jump, Shounen Jump, and AC Monthly. Even if the writers of AC Monthly didn't get that caption from Square, doesn't the fact that they came up with that caption mean that they read the Japanese version of the game to mean that Cloud thinks he can meet Aerith? Why portray Cloud as searching for Aerith in the Japanese version of Kingdom Hearts if the line wasn't intended to be translated as "I think I can meet her... there"? Why wasn't Tifa in Kingdom Hearts trying to meet Aerith with Cloud if the line was intended to mean that they could meet her? Why have Cloud say in FF Tactics that he must go to the Promised Land if the line wasn't intended as personal to Cloud?

I do think the real Cloud got to know Aerith. If the real Cloud didn't get to know Aerith, then he didn't know Tifa very well, either. Cloud was just beginning to get to know Tifa at the beginning of the game, since they didn't know one another well as children. Of course, at the beginning of the game, Cloud wasn't the "real Cloud". Cloud didn't become the "real Cloud" until he pieced himself together at the end of the Lifestream Event. Between the Lifestream Event and the Highwind Scene, Cloud and Tifa only have six verbal interactions. So how well does the "real Cloud" get to know Tifa?

LOL! I completely agree... calling a few transitional bars a combination of their themes when Cloud doesn't even have a theme is silly. What the Cloti's call "Cloud's Theme" is really the Main Theme of FFVII. It's been called the Main Theme on all soundtracks from the game and at Dear Friends concerts - Square has never called it "Cloud's Theme".

Thanks for the info, Aly. I just had to make sure, because Vilaeth made it sound like Square had stated Cloud and Tifa wanted to go search for their lost ones together. Now that you mention there wasn't any pronouns at all, it makes sense.

*waves an angry fist at Vilaeth* :)

I agree with you and STA. Nowhere have we seen Tifa tagging after Cloud to go search for Aeris. :cloud:

No, I think he was just saying that a *possible* interpretation of the line is that people in general can meet their loved ones after death, rather than meaning Cloud himself can meet someone in particular. From what I understand, Vilaeth read that passage from the book posted on a Japanese forum, but it wasn't specified whether the interpretation actually came from Square.

Another thing is that not everyone goes to the Promised Land after death, so why would Cloud be making that statement as a generalization? Most spirits do not end up in the Promised Land, so the spirit being met has to be Aerith. Since the spirit has to be Aerith, I don't think Cloud is making generalities.

And great job tearing apart Angel Tifa's take on the final FMV, Angelic! :cleris:

But didn't you say before that we don't know that for sure? That we don't actually know quite what the Promised Land is, and that maybe others can go there?

All I said is that most spirits do not go to the Promised Land. We're not sure who goes to the Promised Land or why, but we know that most spirits don't. When Tifa fell into the Lifestream, she heard the voices of spirits talking to her there. Those spirits (apparently) weren't in the Promised Land.

Since most spirits do not end up in the Promised Land, then Cloud wasn't speaking in generalities about meeting any old spirit after death. He was speaking about meeting Aerith's spirit.

Anastar:

Vilaeth (AC.net):

Well, Vilaeth seemed quite confident about the passage's meaning. The only input I've seen Vilaeth make are Cloti inputs in argument against Clerises. I assumed this person was a Cloti, but perhaps I've mistaken...

Vilaeth is actually a neutral. He's helped both the Cleris side and the Cloti side in the LTD with translations from the Japanese. Vilaeth has been a big help to the Cleris side in past discussions. He just likes to make sure that the Japanese language isn't being used incorrectly.

This is what Vilaeth told me when I asked him whether the source of this interpretation was from Square:

If we don't know that this translation came from Square, then it's only a *possible* translation rather than a definite translation. That translation made more sense to Vilaeth due to Tifa's response, but we have no confirmation that it's from Square.

However, if only the pronouns are missing, then Cloud must be referring to the Promised Land. We don't know exactly what qualifies a spirit for the Promised Land, but we do know that most spirits do not go there. Why would Cloud be making a generalized statement about meeting their loved ones in the Promised Land if most spirits do not go there? If the Promised Land was mentioned, then Cloud must have been talking about meeting Aerith.

I also have trouble thinking that translation came from Square when Square has reinforced the meaning of Cloud searching for Aerith in FF Tactics and Kingdom Hearts. If Square intended it as a general statement about meeting loved ones, then why has Cloud been depicted as searching for Aerith by Square? If the meaning was more general, then why do even the Japanese write captions in their magazines saying that Cloud's dream is to meet Aerith?

Perhaps Wilhelm or Shadow Spirit can give us an exact translation of the passage from the Japanese script.

Don't kill me for telling what I used to be. I used to be a CloTi. Until I saw Aeris die was when I started to change. When I saw the ending with Cloud saying "I think we can meet her there..." I was really involved with the two (Cloud and Aeris that is)

And I do agree. Tifa seems to beg to be put in somewhere. I know that her and Aeris were friends, but Tifa didn't have to be everywhere Cloud was in the game. she always pushed herself there. And when you have to have her in your party, I'm okay with it. But she always begs to be with Cloud. Has anyone noticed that?

クラウド 「・・・・わかったような気がする」
ティファ 「えっ？」
クラウド 「星からの答え・・・・約束の地・・・・」
「そこで・・・・会えると思うんだ」
ティファ 「うん、会いに行こう」

Cloud: "I think/feel like I've got it [have realized/understood/learnt]"
Tifa: "Hm?"
Cloud: "The answer from the Planet... The Promised Land..."
"I think [] can meet [] ... there..."
Tifa: "Yeah, let's go meet []"

The original lines aren't really as exclusive as the English one is or has to be, it leaves it a little more undefined. You're not bound by an "I can" or anything, or the gender or number of people being met. A literal translation and keeping in with the vagueness of the 'meeting' line would be something like "I think that is where meeting can be done" (bit of an exaggeration, maybe).

Had it ended at Cloud's line, there probably wouldn't be much doubt as to who he was taking about (at least for who can do the meeting), but with Tifa's line there it opens it up a bit for people to take it other ways. There was a quote in a magazine (Famitsu or Dorimaga or something) that said something like there were "as many interpretations of the game as people who played it."

I don't really think it's straight black-and-white, oneway or the other thing. Since they don't elaborate on what the answer from the planet was and why it brings about this sudden realization about meeting people in the Promised Land, you don't really know if he discovered something new about it that would change how it's perceived. It might have completely flipped the common notion of what the Promised Land is around. You don't really know for sure, unless Square decide to go into with one of these new Compilation titles.

Okay, I'd agree there's room left for interpretation, although I'd say that room for interpretation is more along the lines of how, why, and when he would meet Aerith. ;) I'd say Cloud's talking about Aerith because he specifically mentions the Promised Land... who can he meet there but Aerith?

The majority of spirits end up in the Lifestream. We know that because Bugenhagen said so and because Tifa heard the voices of spirits when she fell into the Lifestream at Mideel. Now, I've always been one to believe that the Promised Land isn't exclusive to the Cetra. However, that isn't part of the question here. The question is who would Cloud be wanting to meet in the Promised Land other than Aerith when most spirits do not go there?

If he's wanting to meet someone in the Promised Land, then it has to be Aerith. Tifa is merely agreeing with what Cloud says. So if Cloud's saying that he wants to meet Aerith in the Promised Land, Tifa's just agreeing with him.

When she agrees with him, I think it is her way of supporting Cloud whenever he needs it. So it just shows that Tifa will support any choice Cloud makes.

Okay, another thing... you show Cloud as saying, "I think [] can meet [] ... there..." The second pronoun was left unspecified, but the first pronoun is "I".

Why would the pronoun change? Isn't the same pronoun used in Japanese until a different pronoun is specified? If it was left unspecified, then I'd think the second pronoun would be the same as the first.

I do not think that the [] could meant "we".
Firstly, like what Aly's said in the above post, the pronoun doesn't change unless stated. Since it is not stated, the logical way is to go with "I". "We" is purely assumption.

Secondly, is it me or does anyone feel that in that final FMV, Cloud was more like speaking to himself? Instead of to Tifa??
After the battle with Sephy, when Aerith's hand pulled him out...realisation hit him.
He was still looking a little dreamy whilst hanging off a cliff... I think he didn't look at Tifa when he said those lines (did he?).
So to me, I've seen it as him speaking to himself (and for the audience of cos) and Tifa merely supporting his decision.

lol no, I don't recall him looking at Tifa at all during that sequence. Aeris was the only thing on his mind. :fangirl: He probably didn't even realize Tifa was holding on to him... ^__^;;;;;

That was my point about the answer from the planet. You don't really know what it was, unless some decides to say exactly what it is. Maybe it tells him something no one else knew before.

"I" is technically the last pronoun, since you have to put "to omou" at the end. It also isn't really there, only implied since you can't think for other people. But you can think someone else can do something, or "I think [he] is [something]". The subject would be [he], which you're giving your opinion on. It still doesn't limited it to any single person.

No, we don't know what the answer from the Planet was, but that doesn't affect what I said. Regardless of what the Planet told him, Aerith is the only person he can meet in the Promised Land. Therefore, Cloud is speaking of her. Cloud can't be speaking in general about any old person who has passed away because we already know that most spirits do not go to the Promised Land. It's only certain that Aerith is there.

Okay, but if I understand you correctly, "I" is understood to be the subject. Since "I" is the subject, wouldn't a change in subject be specified? If "I" is the main subject, then it should also be understood that "I" am doing the meeting unless Cloud states differently.

The other part is that Square has shown Cloud to be meeting Aerith in Kingdom Hearts without Tifa. If Square meant the phrase to be interpreted that he and Tifa could meet Aerith, why didn't Square show Tifa meeting Aerith with Cloud in KH? Why did FF Tactics show Cloud saying that he needed to go to the Promised Land? Why did AC Monthly show a caption of "Meeting her. That is my dream." over a picture of Cloud and Aerith last summer? That caption may have come from Square... but even if it didn't come from Square, that caption was written by Japanese people who had played the Japanese version of FFVII. Those people understood Cloud to say that he was going to meet Aerith, even without the subject specified.

Unless it told him a way to meet other people, or that people's knowledge of the Promised Land wasn't correct. Which was my point, since no one don't really knows what it was.

I'm not really good at explaining this. "~ to omou" doesn't really force a subject onto it. "I" would be assumed to be the subject given the lack of clarification, but since Tifa's line was added by the writers persumably for some reason, it leaves it open to possibly meaning both of them can/will as well.

That other quote about Cloud and Tifa must have been written by a Japanese person as well. There are plenty of Japanese people who have different opinion on what the line meant. Some people think it's about Cloud going off to meet Aerith, some think it means Cloud and Tifa will live their life and meet her again when they die, and so on. Probably a whole lot more, I haven't really bothered to look for them.

I wasn't really trying to say it's one way or the other, "this one's right and this one's wrong." All I meant is it's open enough for people to have different opinions.

It may most probably be deeper than just Cloud going to search or meet Aerith , but whatever it is, I'm sure many have their own opinions of what is to happen, right? :ermm: :unsure:

I don't want people to get confused and think I'm saying the Promised Land is exclusive to the Cetra. I don't think it's exclusive to the Cetra, but from what FFVII tells us, most spirits go to the Lifestream rather than the Promised Land. I've always thought there would be some "qualification" for making it to the Promised Land rather than the Lifestream, so that people like Bugenhagen, the elders at Cosmo Canyon, and perhaps Cloud can make it there. However, we know that most spirits end up in the Lifestream because Tifa heard the voices of spirits talking to her when she fell into the Lifestream at Mideel.

Cloud was talking about meeting someone in the Promised Land. We know that the majority of spirits go the Lifestream - that's definite because of Tifa hearing the voices of spirits within the Lifestream. We also know that the Cetra (or at least some of them) go to the Promised Land. If Cloud was talking about meeting someone in the Promised Land, then he wasn't talking about meeting anybody in general. He was talking about Aerith.

The answer from the Planet may have been Aerith's hand reaching to Cloud, which is very likely since it's what we actually saw and because it fits with Cloud saying that he can meet her there. It also fits with Aerith talking to Cloud in the flower field. It also fits with Cloud being the only one who seems to have continued communication with Aerith's spirit. It fits that the answer was Aerith's hand because it signified that Aerith wants to be with him again, which would make Cloud believe that he can meet her there.

So it's Tifa's line alone that opens the possibility? Tifa was also shown to invite herself along at several places in the script, so it's part of her character to do so. I'm not trying to imply what Tifa's motivations are, or that she's pushy - I'm simply saying that she behaves in that way at several points in the script. I don't know why she does it, but it is typical behavior for her and part of her character.

What other quote? The one about "more than friends, less than lovers"? I understand that's just saying that they're good friends, but that any other feelings aren't mutually reciprocated on both sides.

From what you say, the majority of Japanese think he's talking about meeting Aerith in particular rather than loved ones in general.

Okay... Vilaeth's statements at AC.net gave me the impression that he was trying to show that it definitely meant both Cloud and Tifa finding their loved ones. I've been hearing the same from others in the debate. As Hades'{angelic}daughter said:

But didn't Square clarify the meaning of the passage with Kingdom Hearts and FF Tactics? IF Square intended the ending to mean that Cloud and Tifa would go together to find Aerith, then why wasn't Tifa with Cloud in those games? Cloud was trying to find Aerith on his own in KH, and Cloud said that he had to find the Promised Land in FF Tactics with no sign of Tifa around. If Square wanted to leave the possibility open that Tifa would go with Cloud, then why wasn't Tifa with Cloud in those games? Why isn't Tifa communicating with Aerith now? Why is Cloud by himself in the flower field with Aerith?

What a good disscusion you're having here guys, I'll add my 2 cents:

I do get your point wilhelm, there are many things in FVII that can have a lot of interpretation of it, but, even all the many interpretations that there exist, we have to remember that only one is the real one, and the rest are just speculations.

About finding someone in the Promised Land, I really don't the the case on disscusing this. Cloud is not a very social guy, so why would he want to meet "other people", also most of what was said about the Promised Land, surounded the Cetra, and Aerith as well. I don't know how in japanese it might sound, but I don't think it was translated as it was, without a reason, I know that the english translation has one, or two flaws, but I'm almost sure that the "The Promised Land... I think I can meet her... there..." is correct, remember that it was before that, when Cloud saw Aerith's hand reaching to him, and I don't think think that, that smile on his face in that moment, was for nothing.

Also, if anyone wants, more proofs about it, he talked about the Promised Land on FFT, and for some of those casualties of life, he met with a girl that resembled a lot like Aerith, also was named just like her. Even if KH, has almost nothing to do with FFVII, it was shown that Cloud was searching for his light, many ones say that he was searching for Sephiroth, but Cloud clearly stated, that Sephiroth was his darkness. And at the end, for some of those casualities of life, again, he met with Aerith. And, I don't think that, there is all that Cleris propaganda, made by Square, or some magazines, or some other things (so far I haven't seen a single Cloti propaganda) without a reason, right?

Also, I have read of many writers, that thought that the stories on their books were clear enough to understand, but even so there were a lot of interpretations about it, due to the different way of reasoning of people.

Personally, I don't think that Tifa's words can be defined without watching the FMV. She says that after lowering her face, after Cloud talked about meeting someone in the Promised Land. If you look the expresion on her face at that moment, you see that its quite sad. For me, it shows, that it was then that she knew for sure, that her feelings weren't shared by Cloud, and I think that my theory can be supported, with Tifa's words in one of the trailers, when she asked Cloud if he thought that if he died, he would meet her, that if he thought that his death could be a good one, or something like that. After saying those words, it seems that the fact, that Cloud wants to meet Aerith again, is nothing new for Tifa.

"More than friends, less than lovers" Actually, from my personal point of view, this is everything but a Cloti statement. In that quote, they are telling us, that they are more than friends, in the way that they are more like family, or at least like how family should be, they really care about each other, but even if they are more than friends, this great friendship that they have, the feelings that they have for each other, are not big enough, or do noy go in the direction, that it takes to be lovers.

Way to go Aly! Those were my thoughts exactly.

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Is it just me, or no one has ever said anything about the Promised Land, in any of the trailers, or scans of AC? That's weird, because, the Promised Land, should play a big role in the movie, since it was given a great importance at the end of the game, because of Cloud's words, and in FFT.

Very true... just how many "loved ones" does Cloud have? :lol: Cloud's a playboy on the side!! :woot:

Seriously... IF Cloud loved Tifa, then isn't his "loved one" right there with him? What "loved ones" would he want to meet? Was he playing around with Zack during those years in the Nibelheim prison? :whistle:

If we claim that the English translation was correct here, then we have to say it was correct in other parts of the script. The same is true for the Cloti's, however. The Cloti's often claim that we can't rely on the Japanese translation in other parts of the script, and that we should rely on the way it was translated in the English version. Any Cloti claiming that we can't rely on the Japanese translation in other parts of the script shouldn't be relying on the Japanese translation here.

I agree... why would Cloud be portrayed in FF Tactics as saying that he must go to the Promised Land without Tifa, and why have Cloud searching for Aerith without Tifa in Kingdom Hearts if Square intended that Tifa go along with him? It would have been easy to have Tifa join in the fight with Cloud in FF Tactics. Why wasn't Tifa in the Colisseum with Cloud in KH? Why didn't Tifa walk into the room with Cloud at the end of KH if Square wanted Tifa with him as they searched for Aerith?

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I've been surprised that nothing's been said about it, too, very honestly... I think it'll have to enter into the story of AC, though. If there's to be another Reunion, doesn't a Reunion have to happen in an area like the Promised Land? The Northern Crater is supposed to be in AC, too, though... and we've yet to see it.

How does that tell you which spirits go to the Lifestream and which go to the Promised Land, though? AFAIR, all she said was they were "sad screams", it didn't really say much about who's spirits go there.

I can't really give some in-depth explaination about all the aspects of this theory, since I'm not the one who wrote it and I don't exactly know the thought of the guy who wrote it. You'd have more luck asking him about it, since all I can give is my own opinions on it.

It would technically still be there even if she didn't say anyway, but I doubt many people would think of it.

To me her saying it because it's part of her character to 'invite herself along' just seem, I can't really think of the right word, shallow? and not a good way to show Cloud/Aerith being the decision they made if that's what they wanted. I would think the ending of the game would be above something as petty as that. If they wanted to say 'Cloud chooses Aerith' they might as well have had Tifa keep her mouth shut, or have Cloud clarify he wants to go alone. But it still leave the possiblity open, as well as the possiblity she's inviting herself along and Cloud's too spineless to tell her she's not wanted.

That one from the book that was brought up earlier in this thread.

Maybe they do. I didn't bother with FFVII fandom until around AC's announcement and don't spend a lot of time looking at other people's thoughts about it, so I don't have a wide knowledge of the theories people have come up with over the years.

Look at that page on AC.net, it's about the commercial, yeah? If an outside source like a commercial authenticates an interpretation, then another outside source like a book should do the same?

I don't know about FFT or if anyone's ever said anything about it, but most of what I've seen from KH still leaves it open. Lots of 'might's and 'may's and "Cloud's a popular character and I don't really want to just decide by myself, 'this is how it is'... I want to leave room for everyone's thoughts" [paraphrasing his KH Ultimania interview] It looks to me like he still left that open for people to have their own opinions.

Both are also not proper continuations of FFVII (and as far as I know were never claimed to be such), and lack a lot of the elements of FFVII's story/world. It still leaves other interpretations since it's not finalizing or concluding FFVII's story, they're separate cameo stories set in different worlds. Possiblities, but not the only ones.

That book also came out in 2002, after FFT and possibly KH as well. Maybe they changed their minds after making them. Maybe it's just someone with a different opinion, since not even the staff who made the game share the same views on things.

- He has his family, or at least his mother, as well as Zacks
- And since it's both of them, there'd be Tifa's family, the other AVALANCHE members who died, who would count as the 'other people'

Just because he isn't some hyper-extrovert who's partying every night and mincing around with strangers, doesn't mean Cloud never lost anyone he cared about he might want to see again other than Aerith. It wasn't even 'loved ones' it seems to have been turned into now. Just people who meant something to them or who they miss.

Those are the lines that apparently were only in the Venice presentation, aren't they? I've seen all the publicly released trailers, and heard that recording of the screening in Montreal, and haven't heard any of those lines. The only one close would be the line about a good death, which just sounds like a mistranslation of the line about it being okay to die.

She said they were "sad screams" at the end of the Lifestream event. At the beginning of the Lifestream event, she heard spirits talking to her after she fell in:

Tifa "Huh...... what......? Who......?"
(She looks around)
Tifa "Who is it......? I can't hear......"
(Odd noises fill the gloom, alive but not human. Tifa spins around.)
Tifa "Wait a minute......! I don't know anything about that!"
(She turns again, slowly, in the opposite direction.)
Tifa "No! It's not me......! I'd never do anything like that!!"

Bugenhagen also says that most spirits go to the Lifestream:

Bugenhagen "Eventually... all humans die. What happens to them after they die?" "The body decomposes, and returns to the Planet. That much everyone knows. What about their consciousness, their hearts and their souls?" "The soul too returns to the Planet." "And not only those of humans, but everything on this Planet. In fact, all living things in the universe, are the same."
Bugenhagen "The spirits that return to the Planet, merge with one another
and roam the Planet." "They roam, converge, and divide, becoming a swell, called the 'Lifestream'." "Lifestream.... In other words, a path of energy of the souls roaming the Planet."
Bugenhagen "'Spirit Energy' is a word that you should never forget." "A new life... children are blessed with Spirit energy and are brought into the world." "Then, the time comes with they die and once again return to the Planet..." "Of course there are exceptions, but this is the way of the world."

No, this doesn't tell us precisely which spirits go to the Promised Land and which spirits go to the Lifestream, but it does tell us that most spirits go to the Lifestream... not the Promised Land.

But Cetra do go to the Promised Land. So if Cloud's talking about meeting someone in the Promised Land, he's talking about meeting Aerith.

I'd be glad to ask him about it if I could. :lol:

Well, that's the way I perceive her statement, and I don't see it as petty because I see that as part of Tifa's character. She behaves similarly in other places within the story, so that's just the way Tifa behaves. I don't see it as so much of a petty or shallow action, but more like a habit - it's just part of her nature to respond in that way. However, Hades{angelic}daughter saw it differently. She suggested this:

During the game, Tifa did invite herself along several times. More than anything though, I saw the main point of her reply, during the final FMV, as an "understanding/acceptance" of Cloud's decision. I don't think she was literally trying to invite herself along.

"yeah...let's go meet her.", in this case, is the same thing to me as an "I support your idea, because I understand how you feel. You should go meet her, Cloud...".

One of Tifa's weakness is that she's always depending on the others for encouragement and assurance. Her reply here, I think, also indicates how she's trying to overcome that weakness...by being the one to assure herself: "Even though Cloud doesn't love me, I'll be okay..."

"...let's go meet her" would be a much better way to say "I agree that you should go meet her", anyway, if one was trying to assure oneself that she would be strong regardless of his decision.

I can understand Tifa's reaction from that viewpoint, too. I think both are possible.

You mean the same quote we're discussing now? :unsure:

But we don't know that your quote came from one of the creators... you said above that I would learn more if I talked to the man who made up this theory, so it's apparantly a theory rather than something spoken by the creators. You also said this:

So we don't even know that the statement was made by one of the creators.

On the other hand, any company who makes a commercial for Square has to get the commercial approved by Square. Any company who makes a commercial for Square has to consult with Square about what content Square wants in the commercial and what Square wants the commercial to portray.

On the other hand, if that quote came from someone other than one of the creators, then you merely have someone expressing an opinion about what a passage may mean. Since Square acknowledges that different interpretations are held of the game, why wouldn't Square allow someone to express their opinion in one of their books? Unless we know the quote comes from one of the creators themselves, then I don't see that it's anything but an opinion. So which has more validity? A commercial approved by Square, or an opinion from a third party?

I didn't say that anything conclusive was learned in KH. What I said was that IF Square intended Cloud's statement to mean that Cloud and Tifa would go to meet loved ones in general, then wouldn't they show Tifa with Cloud in KH searchng for Aerith? In FF Tactics, Cloud says to one of the characters that he must get to the Promised Land. Why didn't Square show Cloud and Tifa together IF they intended that the two of them together go to find Aerith? Why portray Cloud alone in both cases IF Square intended Cloud's statement to mean that he and Tifa would go together?

I don't see that it matters whether or not it's a continuation of FFVII. It's a portrayal of one of Square's characters in games produced by the creators of FFVII. Sakaguchi was part of the staff of FF Tactics. Nomura, Kitase, Sakaguchi, and Nojima all worked on KH. Why would they portray Cloud in a way that contradicted his character and/or his story in FFVII?

Square doesn't have to make a continuation of the game to portray their characters personalities... I consider games with Cloud/Aeris side stories kinda like Square "letting them out to play". Where their true characteristics shine through with no story in the way. It is how people recognize their beloved characters.

*confuzzled*
Question: How does the line "I think I can meet HER there" becomes a reference to Cloud's family, Zack, Avalanche etc etc?

Her = singular female. So it is highly likely a reference to Aerith OR his mumO.o
However, we have only seen Cloud portrayed to be searching for Aerith in cameo roles. And it was that moment of Aerith's hand reaching for him that made him enlightened, and therefore speak this line "I think I can meet her there". So isn't this conclusive that he wants to meet Aerith, not anybody else?

No KH or FFT is never conclusive, just like FFVII ^__^
You can view Cloud and Aerith's role as simply platonic in KH/FFT if you must, or you can view it as romantic.
However, what is concrete is you can never view Cloud and Tifa's relationship as romantic in these games. Cloti was never a possibilty in these games. Cleris is. As simple as that.

I think everyone is just over-analyzing. If you think about things way too much, you can come to the conclusion that anything is possible.

We were asking Wilhelm about it because Vilaeth at AC.net said that the pronouns are unspecified in the Japanese script. I was showing how it has to be Aerith that he's planning to meet because she's the only one who would be in the Promised Land.

I agree... along with the fact that the person/persons he's talking about meeting is in the Promised Land. Since most spirits do not go to the Promised Land, he's got to be speaking about meeting Aerith.

As you mentioned, too, it's Cloud who received the answer from the Planet. Since ONLY Cloud received the answer, then it must be ONLY Cloud who's planning on going.

Which still doesn't say whose spirits go there. What does it change that she was talking after the event? Considering the only ones she mentions are 'sad' ones which seem to be trying to blame her of something, maybe the Lifestream is really an FFVII version of Hell/Purgatory. As far as I remember, no one was sure on what the Promised Land in FFVII.

Unless other people do go to the Promised Land, since they don't tell you what gets people into the Promised Land. And that's what the answer tells him.

But even if it is only Aerith they can meet, it doesn't really mean Cloud and Tifa can't go together or haven't tried.

Exactly, interpretation and not 'right' or 'wrong'. It doesn't necessarily make people who took it differently incorrect. I just don't feel given how much of it is based on personal opinion you can talk about it in absolutes.

I didn't mean petty/shallow on Tifa's part, more on the writer's.

Yeah, but when you quote me before you brought up the "more than friends..." quote. I was just clarifying that.

But how do people know the commercial quote came from the creators?

A bad choice of words on my part. Since all I've seen of this is what's been mentioned here, I don't know if it's just a theory/interpretations or something one of the creators said. Without the book, no one knows.

And a book using the copyrights of 4 of Square's games wouldn't be? I would think a book proclaiming the meanings behind the game would warrant more need for approval than a commercial, especially considering it's coming from a company created by Square.

To be fair, who Cloud's searching for isn't clarified and is open for people to think differently, hence the Nomura quote above. It's a possiblity in an alternate world free of the limitations set by FFVII, not be-all-and-end-all of it's original story.

So no one else can go, just because it's Cloud who received the answer? What stops Cloud from sharing what he's learnt?

Yeah, CG's right. :ermm:

We're just having fun, CG. :rolleyes: We're nerds. :geek:

:lol: :P

But you're ignoring what Bugenhagen said:

Bugenhagen "Eventually... all humans die. What happens to them after they die?" "The body decomposes, and returns to the Planet. That much everyone knows. What about their consciousness, their hearts and their souls?" "The soul too returns to the Planet." "And not only those of humans, but everything on this Planet. In fact, all living things in the universe, are the same."
Bugenhagen "The spirits that return to the Planet, merge with one another
and roam the Planet." "They roam, converge, and divide, becoming a swell, called the 'Lifestream'." "Lifestream.... In other words, a path of energy of the souls roaming the Planet."

Further clarification is given by Elder Hargo in Cosmo Canyon (Elder Hargo on the Promised Land), who says that the Promised Land is the resting place of the Ancients. Bugenhagen says that souls end up in the Lifestream. He says there are exceptions, but that is generally what happens to all spirits. Elder Hargo says that the Promised Land is the resting place of the Ancients. So, most souls go to the Lifestream and the Cetra go to the Promised Land. There are exceptions, but that's generally how it is.

I think that's sorta like finding out from St. Peter that you'll make it to Heaven and telling you're friend that he/she can come along, too.

I said it would have been approved by the creators, which is logical. Any big company like Square who hires another company to do commercials for them approves the commercials made about their products. The company that does the commercial doesn't just make something up on their own without knowing anything about the product and then send it out to air on some TV station. They get information about the product from the company that produced it, make the commercial according to the specifications made by the company that produced the product, and get approval by the company who produced the product to make sure that the commercial shows what was intended before the commercial gets aired.

It sounds like a theory about the ending of the game. Square allows other people to theorize about possible interpretations, don't they? Unless we know that it was a statement made by one of the creators, then it's just a theory that someone made about what the ending may mean.

And how do we know that it's a book "proclaiming the meanings behind the game" rather than a book about possible interpretations of the game?

It's rather hard to think Cloud's searching for Sephiroth when he tells Sora that he's searching for his Light, then calls Sephiroth his Darkness. In the ending sequence where Cloud was shown meeting Aerith, all the other clips shown were different characters being reunited with their Light. Why would the sequence with Cloud be any different? Why does Cloud approach Aerith rather than Squall and Yuffie when he comes through the door? Why is Cloud hanging his head as he approaches Aerith in the same way that his head is hanging in the flower field?

As I said above, I think that's rather like a person gaining entrance to Heaven and deciding that a friend can come along. Unless Tifa receives an answer from the Planet, too, I think it's unlikely that she's able to go.

I also think it's unlikely that Cloud would speak for her. If you have a moment of realization/understanding that is an epiphany for you, especially when that epiphany is of a spiritual and/or religious type of understanding, you don't assume that the person with you has gained the same understanding/realization and undergone the same epiphany. An epiphany of that sort is highly personal. Cloud was also alone as he gained it. In the