Near the end of FFVII, Cloud says this after dropping into the Northern Crater where they meet Sephiroth:

Cloud "Aerith's memories... Our memories..."
"We came... to tell you... our memories... Come Planet! Show us your answer!"

What exactly does Cloud mean by saying, "We came to tell you our memories"? He's also asking the Planet to give them an answer once they tell their memories. From what Cloud says, it's almost as if a memory has a force of some kind.

Does this have something to do with Sephiroth saying that he won't become a memory? All the members of Cloud's party are wearing pink ribbons in remembrance of Aerith. They're keeping the memory of Aerith alive in their hearts. Cloud is also having memories of Zack. I think that the memory of Aerith will be important in the movie, too.

What do their memories have to do with the defeat of Sephiroth, and how will that be drawn into AC? Somehow, I think there's a connection... but I'm not sure what it is. :unsure:

yeah I remember that
im still trying to figure it out :ermm:

I'm not so sure why he said Aerith's memories, Our memories. But after he says they went to tell their memories, he asks the Planet for an answer. Later, after he defeated Sephiroth he says this:

Somehow the answer from the Planet, for Cloud, was that he could meet "HER" there, in the Promised Land. What it has to do with, Aerith's memories, or their memories? I'm still trying to figure it out.

I don't think Cloud saying that, has anything to do with Sephiroth saying he won't be just a memory. I think that when Sephiroth said that, he meant he's not something that will stay in the past, a memory that can be forgotten, that he's a reality, and has returned to show it.

Mmm... As I said before, I don't think that their memories has anything to do with the defeat of Sephiroth. But I do remember, that when Cloud was in the tunnel, that took him with the final battle with Sephiroth, you could hear some strange noices, and Aerith's theme played in the background, also in the tunel walls, you could see some strange figures, then the walls turn into stone, then water, then air. I don't know, but I'm making the idea, that somehow the tunnel, the sounds played on it, and what was shown on its walls, somehow reflect Cloud's memories. I think that somehow, his memories are the key for what he's searching, that's why he had to tell his memories to the Planet, because in them, was the answer for what he was requestion to know. Well, that's what I think.

Hmmm... a very interesting question!

I had always sort of assumed that the reference to memories had some sort of symbolic meaning in FF7 - something tied to the concept of the "soul," in the sense of "we are the sum of our memories" or "people live on after death in the memories of their loved ones." With Sephiroth's reference to "not being a memory" seeming to essentially suggest that he does not want to "cease to be" - aka accept "death" and be absorbed into the lifestream - I wonder if there really was an important symbolic significance to what Cloud says, particularly when you factor in all the references to "memories of Aerith" we've seen so far in trailers and screenshots from AC.

I don't have any specific thoughts, but it's certainly an interesting question. There must be some significance, considering "I won't be a memory" seems to be Sephy's tag-line for the movie so far...

My brain hurts... I'm gonna have to step away from this for awhile (plus I have a term paper waiting for me, lol).

Anyway, my main point: "memory" = an association with death and/or the soul? Thoughts?

Buhon phrased it better than me... I was trying to say that I think that memories somehow associated with death and/or the soul. Cloud says that they will speak of their memories, Aerith's memories... it almost sounds like he's saying that their souls will fight Sephiroth's soul. If you have Tifa speak in that part, she also says that Aerith is there with them, which is similar to what Cloud said about Aerith's memories.

Interesting idea... and yes, the answer that Cloud understood from the Planet after telling his memories was that he could meet Aerith.

You phrased it better than me! :lol: Yes, that's what I was thinking, too - that there must be a symbolic significance to "memories". It almost seems as if "memories" is referring to one's soul or spirit. I'm thinking that Sephiroth not wanting to become a memory is similar to what you said, except that I don't think he exists in reality. If Aerith's spirit is interacting with Cloud, then her spirit is alive in his heart... in a sense, it's still alive. But if you're nothing but a memory, then is it more like Cloud's memory of Zack? Cloud didn't interact with Zack - we only see his memory of Zack.

See the difference? Cloud is able to interact with Aerith's spirit because she remains alive in his heart, but he's unable to interact with Zack because Zack is just a memory. That's what Sephiroth doesn't want to become - just a memory. Am I making sense?

I did understood, what you meant. But I don't think that memories have some conection with death, or with the soul, I think that memories is something conected with Life. But as you, I think that "memories" have some deepest meaning. As I said before, I think that memories, are somehow conected with the answer the Planet gave to Cloud.

"Holy...... Aerith......"
"...We're not gonna lose!!"
"Aerith is here... everyone is here... Cloud is here with us!"
"There's still many things for us to do... I'm not giving up!!"

I think that Tifa was saying that Aerith was there because of Holy, and her sacrifice. I'm sure that the only one that had a different thought of Aerith's presence was Cloud. I'm a 100% sure, that thought that Aerith's soul was indeed there. I'm sure that the hand reaching scene, has a deepest meaning, as well.

Pretty much. I agree you on this, Sephiroth doesn't want to stay as a mere memory, as Zack. Also, I had enough time to get to know Sephiroth in the game, to be sure that he'll find his way to return.

Mmm... KH memories came to me... Cloud hasn't seen Aerith until know, but might have a battle with Sephiroth before that... He finding her at the end??? KH KH KH, any conection???

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Returning to the memories disscusion, so far we have this:
Aerith's Memories
Their Memories (Wich memories, is Cloud refering as "OUR"?)
Lifestream
The Planet
The Promised Land

There must be a conection. What kind of conection? We must find out.

You're making a good point that memories seem to be connected to Life since memories are somehow related to the answer Cloud got from the Planet. But if memories = Life, then wouldn't Sephiroth want to become a memory? :unsure:

So let's look at it a different way. The answer Cloud got from the Planet was that he could meet Aerith in the Promised Land... but can that happen during Life? From what I understand, Cloud can only meet Aerith in Death. Therefore, the answer Cloud got from the Planet would concern the state of Death rather than Life.

That's a good distinction. Regardless of how Tifa was referring to Aerith in that passage, however, it still shows that she is remembering Aerith in some way. It still ties in with the idea of memories.

I agree.

Sephy was only out to be reborn as a god during the game, though - so does he have to be reborn in corporeal form to have an effect?

Possibly... Cloud is also driven by angst in KH. The greatest parallel that I see between KH and FFVII is that Sephiroth was the root of all darkness in Cloud's life during FFVII. Aerith's hand is surrounded by Light during the hand reach scene, so Cloud had to defeat his Darkness in FFVII before seeing his Light. Darkness also had to be defeated in KH before Cloud was reunited with Aerith.

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There are more passages in FFVII that indicate a connection with memories, like the following passage in which Cloud speaks of Aerith to Bugenhagen at Cosmo Canyon:

Cloud "I remember Aerith a lot." "No... not that. You haven't remembered. You haven't forgotten. That's not it..." "How would you say it... Aerith was right there all along. Right by our side." "She was so close, we couldn't see her. What Aerith did... The words she left behind..."

Cloud also says this later on board the Highwind as they approach the Northern Crater:

Cloud "Let's all go together." "Memories of Aerith......" "Although she should've returned to the planet by now, something stopped her and now she's stuck......" "We've got to let go of Aerith's memory."

By the way, Vilaeth at AC.net has confirmed for us that the last line is a mistranslation. Cloud's really saying that they need to free Aerith from Sephiroth's control, not that they should let go of her memory.

There does seem to be a connection of some sort between memories and the spirit or soul of a person. It also seems to be connected somehow to the answer Cloud got from the Planet as well as what Aerith had to do. So what's the connection? What are we missing? :unsure:

Off-topic: Has anyone been watching the mini-series Revelations on CBS? There was a character named Bugenhagen in it - a wise old man who had written huge philosophical manuscripts about theology! :lol:

No, Memories ≠ Life, memories are a part of life, something you make while you're living, memories are the accumulation of experinces that you've lived, and seen. But also memories can be kept, and be unforgotten, as also can be memories that remain in the past, and some of the can be forgotten.

I think that when Sephiroth said, that he won't become just a memory, he's saying that he's not something that will stay in the past, something that has passed away, and that can be forgotten. He's still there, and he's still a threat. He's not just a memory, he's something real, how did he managed to return, i don't know, but I'm sure he has returned.

Yes, the only way he can reach the Promised Land is by dying, but in death is not the only requirement to enter the Promised Land, but to do good deeds beyond the normal good deeds, also to respect the Planet, and to be conected with it, things that you can do only, by being ALIVE. Now Cloud has the idea where to find her, and how to find her, but are those things all he needs to find her, or there's something missing in him? I think he's lacking on something, and we might get to know what in the movie.

No, he can have a negative effect on Cloud, by just being a memory, or by entering in his mind, like Aerith's seems to do. But I don't think he'll be something just spiritual, projection or something like that. In the game Sephiroth showed that he could made his way into the world, in many different ways. I'm sure that until JENOVA, and all its "EFFECTS" reamain on the Planet, he'll always find a way to return.

I don't think that the conection is with the memory itself, but with what Cloud kept in his heart. The reason he's fighting for, that someone or that something that its important to him. Cloud explained what was his reason for fighting in here:

Cloud: "I think we all are fighting for ourselves."
"For ourselves... and that someone... something... whatever it is, that's important to us."
"That's what we're fighting for."
"That's why we keep up this battle for the planet."

Cloud: "I know why I'm fighting."
"I'm fighting to save the planet, and that's that."
"But besides that, there's something personal too..."
"A very personal memory that I have."

The very special memory he was fighting for. That was the key for the answer the Planet gave to him. That very special memory that he kept in his heart. That memory, that lead him to know, that he could meet "HER" there, in the Promised Land.

Yup, you totally make sense to me, Aly! And I completely agree as well.

Glad you mentioned that Aly. Most of the names in FF7 have some important symbolic meaning associated with the characters personality, and I was always curious about Bugenhagen.


Well, I found the source - Johann Bugenhagen, a close friend, confidant, and sometimes spiritual mentor of Martin Luther (THE Martin Luther, the founder of Lutheranism) and one of the early influential pastors in the establishment of Lutheranism. He was reknowned as a theologian, a preacher and as an organizer of congregations. Bugenhagen often served as Luther's personal pastor, and when Luther thought he would pass away due to gallstones in 1537, he had Bugenhagen read him his last rites.

Luther once wrote in answer to a complaint about the preaching inadequacies of another pastor: "I cannot always send you a Luther or a Bugenhagen."

Mystery solved! :woot:

I agree that's what memories can mean... but were those the memories that made Cloud understand that he can meet Aerith in the Promised Land? Or were they memories that made him understand the state of death, rather than memories of life?

I make the distinction because we have to balance Sephiroth's statement of not wanting to become a memory with Cloud's statement that memories helped him understand that he can meet Aerith. How can "memories" be associated with both statements? The definition you gave pertains easily to meeting Aerith, but does it also pertain to what Sephiroth said? :unsure:

We agree on what Sephiroth meant, but I see problems with Sephiroth actually being resurrected. If Sephiroth is resurrected, then Aerith should be resurrected, too. Would Square write AC with such a discrepancy?

That was never said in the game. It's not a bad theory about the nature of the Promised Land and who can make it there, but we don't know that it's true.

Again, we don't know that Sephiroth can actually be resurrected. It's also highly unlikely that Sephiroth was actually there in many scenes during FFVII. Who or what was the Sephiroth we saw on the Junon boat to Costa del Sol? Who or what was the Sephiroth we saw in the Temple of Ancients? Who or what was the Sephiroth seen by Palmer in the Shinra building? Sephiroth wasn't really there in many scenes during FFVII, so why should he suddenly be "real" in AC? :unsure:

I agree that that's what Cloud was fighting for... but I was talking about the connection between Sephiroth's statement about not becoming a memory and Cloud's statement about memories after falling into the Northern Crater.

Wow!! You mean Johann Bugenhagen really existed? I thought he was just made up for the mini-series! :lol: That's awesome, and a really neat tie-in with FFVII's Bugenhagen! :woot: On a side note, Johann Bugenhagen is portrayed in Revelations as having done a great deal of research into the coming of the anti-Christ. :ermm:

It was Bugenhagen the one who told them, that the Cetra reached the Promised Land after they passed away. So he already knew it. How does Cloud plans on reaching the Promised Land, I don't know. Does he plans to die?Does he knows of other method to reach the Promised Land? Those are questions I can't answer. So, whatever was the exact answer the Planet gave to Cloud, or wich was the key in his memories, I don't know.

I don't think they are talking about the same type of memories. When Cloud said he would tell his memories to the Planet, in order to get an answer, I think that he told the memories that were conected to waht he was searching (Aerith?). And when Sephiroth says, he won't become just a memory, I think that he's refering to memory, as something that once happened, and that stood in the past, something that can be forgotten. And he returned, to show, he wasn't something that stood in the past, he's a reality, he's something that it's in the present, and a threat.

Sephiroth is a traveler of the Lifestream (he said this by himself), and Aerith is not. While Aerith went to the Promised Land, Sephiroth keeps existing in the Lifestream, can't be in the real world, but doesn't becomes one with the Planet either. But he has a physical conection, some sort of medium with the Planet, and those are the JENOVA cells, as far as those cells, those conections exist, he wont be just a memory, he'll be reality. And who knows, no one said that there are no chances of Aerith being resurrected in AC.

No, it was never said in the game. But, it was said that it were the Cetra, the ones who reached the Promised Land, and they had this type of life, and conections with the Planet. It has been shown, that somehow Cloud is able to communicate with the Planet, and he has had some sort of a Cetra type of life.

No, he wasn't, but that didn't stopped him of making physicall damage, isn't it? Real, or not, Physicall, or whatever he was, he could make physicall damage, and that's all that matters.

I guess we're working from different perspectives of what memories mean in FFVII. I think there's a connection of some sort between "memories" in FFVII - which are referred to pretty often - and "memories" in AC.

I agree with many things you're saying, such as Cloud's memories helping him to find a way to meet Aerith in the Promised Land, but I don't know that they are memories of what happened during his life. I think the memories are pointing to something else, like the soul or spirit of an individual.

In the Film Festivals, Vincent says that Geostigma is caused by something like the Lifestream within each person fighting the Jenova cells. Is the Lifestream within each person the same as their soul, or spirit? Is that also what is meant by memories?

I'lll post my thoughts on this a little later, but I just wanted to throw this quote into the mix as I think it might apply a lot, yet it hasn't been mentioned yet.


Text on screen: Is it for the Children?
For a Memory?
Or for Himself?

Good reference, MT! I'd forgotten about that one...

It'll be interesting to hear your thoughts on this. :rolleyes:

What about when cloud said this:
"Im fight to Save the Planet....
But Besides that,Theres something Personal too....
A very Personal Memory I have." :ermm:

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that your perspective is wrong. I think that in FFVII memories can be somehow conected with souls as you said, but there's no way to prove it.

I honestly, don't have the slightest idea, what does Aerith's, or their memories have to do, with the Planet, giving Cloud an answer. I do think that there must be some key regarding memories, but that's something really difficult to pull out, since, as many things in FFVII, there can be a lot of interpretations about it. Even so, I still belive Sephiroth will return, and that will have a final showdown with Cloud.

BTW, once Plato said, that humans had a divine origin, that they lived in some Perfect Place, an Ideal Place, but, because of sins some of them eventually fall into a Rotten Rmage of that Ideal Place, that Rotten Image, is our world. Those who felt into this world, forgot everything about their lifes in that Ideal Place, but that deep within them, they had "MEMORIES" of that Ideal Place, since they borned in the Rotten Image, and by fully remembering those memories, they could find the way to return to that Ideal Place.

No, there's no way of proving it... yet. However, I just find it way too coincidental that memories were brought up as often as they were in FFVII - especially during the final scenes - and that memories also seem to be significant in AC. We may have to wait to see what the connection is, but I really think it may play out in AC.

ahhh... excellent addition of quotes flowerangel and Materia Thief...

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the concept of Memory serves as some sort of euphemism about death and the afterlife in the world of FF7. Beyond that, I really don't know what to add, lol.

It'll be interesting to see how this concept ties in with Aerith and Sephiroth's post-death presence in AC, and if this may have something to do with Cloud finding the Promised Land... and Aerith. Maybe it'll confirm Cloud's love for Kadaj after all? :lol:

I was having some thoughts on this quote:

Cloud: "Aerith's memories... Our memories..."
"We came... to tell you... our memories... Come Planet! Show us your answer!"

Cloud says OUR memories, right? That they are going to tell the Planet THEIR memories, in order for the Planet to give them an answer. But: How does Cloud knows that the others want an answer from the Planet?
* Barret is fighting for Marlene, and for the sake of Jesee, Biggs, Wedge, Dyne, and his family & friends in North Corel.
* Tifa, Red XIII, Cid and Yuffie for the ones that are important to them.
* Vincent to stop what he couldn't stop before, even if he can't have Lucrecia back, at least he can stop Sephitoth.
* And Cait Sith (Reeve), because he got involved with the team, and in the fight, he wants to do his good deeds.

I never saw anyone besides Cloud, asking the Planet for an answer. Also the only one to get an answer, was Cloud. I think that he uses the word WE or US as a shield, for not telling that is only HE, the one who's interested, like in this quote:

Aerith: "I'm...... alone..... I'm all alone now..."
Cloud: "But I'm..... we're here for you, right?"

See, how he uses the word WE as a shield for not showing that he was the one who was intererested. I think that the speech in the Lifestream, really meant this:

Cloud: "Aerith's memories... My memories..."
"I came... to tell you... our (His and Aerith's) memories... Come Planet! Show me your answer!"

That's why he got the answer of, HIM (Cloud) meeting HER (Aerith) again, at the Promised Land. Well, this was just speculation, but I think it's pretty accurate. :cleris: :fanboy:

I like that theory, Clerith-son. You have brought up some very good ones!

My take on the memories quote is not as deep as everybody's. I always thought it had something to do with coming to terms with all of their pasts. Most of the Avalanche members had tragic pasts and as facing off with Sephiroth was the supposed 'final reckoning', it's like they were all victims of tragedy and all wanted an 'answer' for what they went through. Cloud knows what they all went through and he himself knows what he went through(the most severe being losing Aerith) and so he cried out to the Planet for an answer...he served as the 'voice' for all of them since he was the leader.

I think it all just ties into the fact that no one is ever really dead if their memories live on in their hearts. They will always be alive to them no matter what. That's why memories are so important. Nothing is ever lost as long as the memories live on.

That's an excellent point of view CG, but remember that there are Memories that you can have in your mind for some time and them forget them, the Memories that you keep in your heart forever are the ones, that were created from experiences that took your feelings to the edge, and made you feel as good or as bad as possible.

But even so, this doesn't explain what does Memories have to do, with the Planet giving an answer to Cloud, lol.

I've always wondered what Cloud really meant by that speech. I interpreted it in the same way you did, Kusari, but I also felt that Cloud wanted something of an acknowledgement from the Planet.

It reminded me of when Tifa asks 'Do you think the stars can hear us? Do you think they see how hard we are fighting for them?' I think that was part of it, the memories of how they'd come so far. Maybe Cloud wanted the Planet to acknowledge how difficult their journey had been, and how they were still fighting for it. Maybe he wanted the Planet to tell him whether it was all worth it, and whether Aerith's sacrifice would be in vain as Holy was being blocked by Sephiroth.

I also think that Cloud's memories made him stronger. Maybe the reason that he was able to beat Sephiroth was because of the power and confidence his memories gave him. His memory of Aerith would have spurred him on - he'd want to take revenge for her. His memories of everything he'd been through would strengthen his resolve too, especially his memories of being a 'faliure'. By beating Sephiroth, he'd no longer be the faliure he was before. It could be that he wanted to show all of this to the Planet, and then he'd feel worthy of an answer regarding the Promised Land and Aerith.