This passage is quoted from Part 2 of the Montreal Film Festival report at http://www.daeya.org/ff7ac_mtl/report_intro.php

At this point, there is a flashback of Tifa yelling at Cloud telling him to stop running. She goes on to say that the inablility to effectively control their destinies is a fear that has too great of a grip on him. After this, the setting is once again in the forest with Vincent asking him, "Cloud... are you sure this is about fighting?" As he ponders his answer, yet another flashback occurs and this time, Tifa asks of Cloud, "Why do we have to lose out to a memory?" He still can't forget the fact the he didn't do anything when Sephiroth stabbed Aeris. He still feels guilty about it. As Aeris disembodied voice tells him to turn around and face forwrad, she questions him, "Why won't you forgive yourself?"

I'm wondering what Tifa means when she says, "Why do we have to lose out to a memory?" A memory could be either Sephiroth or Aerith, but in this context it sounds more as if she's referring to Aerith. It almost sounds as if she means that a relationship between she and Cloud won't work because of a memory (Aerith). Then again, she may be referring to Sephiroth returning because he doesn't want to be a memory - Square just stuck Tifa's comment in the wrong place in the trailer to confuse us.

After reading this passage for the first time, though, I could see it leading up to an admission from Cloud that he loved Aerith... isn't that why he can't forgive himself?

What does everyone think?

Tifa yelling at Cloud, huh? She sounds really frustrated... :rolleyes: What does "the inablility to effectively control their destinies is a fear that has too great of a grip on him" mean??? :blink: Does she mean that Cloud fears the future, fears being unable to protect everyone? If so, then that reflects on how much Aerith's death and his inability to protect her is affecting him. :wub:

If it isn't about fighting, what is it about??? :blink: Revenge for Aerith's death, maybe? :wub:

Yes, it does sound like she is referring to Aerith. :huh: If that is so, then that means that Tifa has admitted her feelings to Cloud and approached him about a relationship, right? And it doesn't appear he was receptive to the idea, right? She is "losing out" to Aerith, right? So, it looks like good news for ClAeris... ^_^

So, Aerith asks him to turn around??? :o YAY!!! :wub:

LMAO! Yes, and remember Tifa saying, "Lament, lament, lament....all you do is lament, lament and lament!" I haven't compared that to what they said at Daeya.org yet, but Tifa sounded very exasperated there, too. :lol:

I think it basically means that Cloud can't go with the flow. :lol: He wants to control his life rather than go with whatever happens.

Cloud says that himself: "I don't think I can save anybody...not family, not comrades...no one."

Revenge would be fighting, wouldn't it? If it's not about fighting, it may be about his longing for Aerith... and Vincent realizes that. He's still feeling guilty, not only because he let her die, but because he longs to be with her?

Possibly... I get the same impression, but we don't know that for sure yet.

Yes, she does... but is she asking him to turn around and face the future, or turn around and face her? I find it interesting that she asks, "Why won't you forgive yourself?", too? Isn't the answer that he can't forgive himself because he lost the woman he loves?

Exactly. I think Tifa was frustrated that Cloud was still blaming himself and not fighting against Geostigma, how he was living alone, not taking care of himself well, and all that--She was referring to Aerith's death, I think. I think Tifa knows that Cloud didn't forgive himself, knowing that he thought that he couldn't protect anyone and blamed himself for Aerith's death. She's exapserated because he won't forgive himself and fight against Geostigma and everything--there's a line somewhere like that.

I'm kind of confused at that. I thought Revenge would be fighting but then they say it isn't...so I really dunno. Perhaps it is also because that since that sometime before they find out that Kadje is looking to revive "Mother'--another possible way to revive Sephiroth? He wants to fight so Aerith's sacrifice won't be in vain (in his opinion--don't worry, Aerith's death was never in vain!!), that since he longed ot be with her, she could of stayed alive in Holy never worked in the first place--though I think guiltiness of he thought he was letting her die is part of it...

I thought that Tifa had accepted that Cloud would only love Aerith--and that was her sacrifice--because she loved him, she would do anything to make him happy...didn't she? It wouldn't make sense if she approached him about a relationship afterwards because I think she knew that already that he was "receptive to the idea" as FF_Goddess says.

I think since it is her spirit guiding him to the temple to help him fight (because the Montreal Festival showed that's where Aerith said that line, right?)--she would ask him to turn around and face the the future. But if I'm wrong, scratch that. There could be a possibilty that this line is in the flowery field and Square's trying to throw us off--and that she asks to turn around and face her...

And as to Aerith asking that question, maybe because Aerith knew that it wasn't his fault, and it was something he would learn how to forgive by himself (she says this somewhere)--that there was "nothing to forgive"--she knows that the only person who'd be able to convince Cloud that he was never at fault would be himself--"A man's only prison is his mind." Am I making any sense? Have I been making any sense earlier? :blink:--So basically, she's saying, "Why must you be so stubborn [in not forgiving yourself in something where there was nothing to forgive]?" in a nicer way, of course ;). Or, "Why can't you see that there was nothing to forgive in the first place?"--would be more accurate.

I don't know how in English "lose out to a memory" can be interpreted (sp?) so please clear me up!

It depends on what "memory" she's talking about... the memory could mean Sephiroth, it could mean Aerith, or it could even mean what happened in Nibelheim. Basically, she's saying that a memory is defeating them in some way, but we aren't sure of the context.

Is Sephiroth defeating them (mentally or physically), even though he's just a memory in physical form?
Is the memory of Aerith "defeating" Cloud and Tifa's relationship, because Cloud's memory of Aerith won't allow him to move on?
Are Cloud's memories of failure "defeating" his desire to live?
Are Cloud's memories of failure "defeating" his will to fight?

All of those interpretations are possible... that's what we're discussing.

I always took that line to mean everyone. Tifa, Barret, Denzel, Marlene, everyone. Losing out to Aeris' memory. Maybe Cloud won't fight because of his guilt, and they could all get killed. Or she realizes how much more the simple memory of Aeris means than anyone else. It couldn't be about her and Cloud, as she'd already accepted his feelings, and sacrificed her own.
Ya know, why doesn't TIFA move on?

It's possible that it refers to everyone... but if it refers to everyone, I think it's more likely that she's talking about losing to the memory of Sephiroth. After all, the memory of Sephiroth has manifested itself in physical form. If they believe they can't defeat Sephy because he will only return, then he has defeated them. If it's Aerith's memory that Tifa's referring to, then I think it would be more of a personal reference.

It's our interpretation that Tifa has accepted Cloud's feelings, but that has yet to be presented as fact. The best indication of that was in the Venice Film Festival trailer, when Tifa said this to Cloud after learning that he has Geostigma:

"You think you'll meet her again this way? You think you would reach her by doing so? The way you die could be a good way, is that what you think???"

Doesn't this line indicate that Cloud would rather meet Aerith in death than live a life with Tifa? Unfortunately, we didn't see that line in the TGS or Montreal presentations, but that doesn't mean it won't be in the movie. ;)

LOL! Let's fix her up with Vincent or Reno or Dio or Barret! :lol:

Hmmm....Why do we have to lose to a Memory? I think its more to what Tifa is referring to Aeris's memory. That is a memory that has deeply affected everyone. But I think the question is for Tifa is: DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE PAIN OF THAT MEMORY FOR CLOUD?
The way she stated that makes me have a feeling that she was referring to the loss of Aeris. But in the same way that I feel that she can't come to terms with herself how important Aeris's memories are for Cloud.
It's like, you weren't even a good friend to Cloud in the beginning so you're not really a good friend to Aeris too then. (But that's how I personally feel.)
There's also no point to support that Aeris made Cloud feel guilty that's why he's not shack up with Tifa. Sorry, but that's the most lamest argument that Cloti fans can think of.
Cloud cared about Aeris......A LOT....that's why everytime he says that he's there for Aeris, he would change it to 'we' because he tried to express his true feelings to her. Yes, he feel guilty that he couldn't protect her, but that's because she's special to him, more than Tifa would be. There's a strong bond between Cloud and Aeris that isn't evident with Tifa. :)

Hmm... :huh: Well, even if Tifa accepted that Cloud loved only Aerith at the end of FFVII, as we all believe, it doesn't mean she gave up on him. Two years have passed, after all, and Tifa may have confessed her feelings for Cloud and approached him about a relationship, hoping he would choose to move on with her. Or, perhaps, she is just musing to herself about how a relationship between she and Cloud is destined to fail because he still loves Aerith and always will. :wub:

*Nods* Yep, those are all possibilities... ^_^

Agreed. We have enough angst with Cloud around... :rolleyes: RETI FOREVER!!! :wub:

You make a good point. The way Tifa said that, IF she was referring to Aerith, was rather callous. I mean, she and Aerith were very good friends. For her to refer to her dead friend as a "memory"... Does anyone else think that is a bit insensitive? :blink: Why not say something like, "Why can't Cloud get over Aerith?" rather than "Why do we have to lose out to a memory?" I dunno, maybe she is referring to Sephiroth or something else... :huh:

I think she meant losing out to a memory by Cloud being too involved with Aeris's memory to focus on Tifa and the others. So she is saying they are losing to Aeris's memory when it comes to Cloud's full attention. I think she sounds a little selfish there.

One thing has bothered me though. In the end of FFVII, Tifa pretty much understands and decides to "move on" with her "Yeah, let's go meet her" comment. She looked sad yet accepting of Cloud's wishes. That he loves Aeris and not her after all. And now in the movie she is back to being depressed again. After two years no less. <_< I think Tifa has more of a problem with holding onto the past than Cloud.

For me it's an indication on Tifa's part that she cares about Cloud's happiness which completely involves Aerith. In my own understanding for now (sorry, my brain is sort of clouded at the moment, but I'll try...)... rephrasing it, she would say, "Do we have to let ourselves be affected by guilt and stop fighting for the sake of everybody else?"

or maybe something like "do you have to be affected by guilt and then just let yourself die? What about Aerith?"

...er...something like that. I'll get back to it later. <_<

That's how I feel Tifa.

Agree with Tifa, as well. (After all, she's the one who said it! Wahaha! XD)

I think what Tifa meant was: "Are you just going to let yourself die of guilt? You aren't even going to fight? Would Aerith like that?" or something to that effect... baaah....

Hmm...interesting. But the more I think about, the more I think that Tifa hadn't let go. Most of her dialogue presented in the trailers made me think that its for her own needs. Marlene even broke my heart and shatter my image of her.
No one really understand Cloud or his pain. Its all about "me, me, me" but what about Cloud. Aeris was the only one to break him out of his shell in FF7, so I'm not sure how its going to fair in AC. Although, I want Aeris back and I thought it was amusing when she told him to go back. I was rooting for her all the way as she broke a bit of his shell to get through him.
Yes, I feel that Cloud is not understood at all but then its just trailers, trailers that makes me burn with rage of how they're treating Cloud. I only got light-headed and squel like a school girl when Cloud was back to back with Aeris. *cries* It was so romantic yet so sad.

:huh: I interpreted the memory as Sephy.
Cos Sephy's words were "I won't be just a memory" right?

Tifa thinks that Cloud is losing will to fight and all cos of geostigma and geostig is linked to sephy. So she said why should we lose out to a memory.
Then Sephy jumps down from the sky and slapped the words right back at her! wahaha go sephy! ^_^

opps no i hate sephy ,he killed aerith.. no i :wub: sephy...aggghh am a confused girlie

There are a few things on my mind, in which, I think that phrase could be in reference to:

Sephiroth - "How is it that we're losing to something that has already been defeated?"

Aerith
1) "Why are you letting your guilt for her stop you from fighting to save us all?"
2) "Why are you paying more attention to her than to us (the planet, I, Marlene, and the rest of your friends) who are in need of your help?"
3) "How are memories (of a loved one) so strong, that we (as humans) would let them overcome us?"

Anastar:

As you guys have already mentioned...maybe Tifa hasn't really given up on Cloud, and is still trying to pursue him (that's how strong her love is!!! :puke: ), but personally, I don't think it's what she'd meant. Although I think she'd been selfish, as a child, I think she grew out of it. I mean, her love for him was strong and true enough that she'd accepted his decison when he'd chosen Aeris. In a sense, I feel like there was closure between Cloud and Tifa at the end of the game.

You guys could be right though...but in that case, I would change my mind about her character completely and really start to dislike her... :(

hnn im back. =)

well from what I think, Tifa meant something like, why Cloud still hadn't gotten over the past and why he was letting it making him such an angsty sp person. I don't think she wanted him to to completely let go of the past but not let it kill him. She just wants him to be stronger,maybe. Well, whatever I meant. =D
Well I agree with what Tifa Lockheart said anyway. Tifa isn't some selfish girl who puts herself before others, she just made a lot of wrong decisions and had her downs more than ups and made a lot of people think that way.

Hmm... I think I get what you mean, but I still don't think she knows how much pain Cloud had gone through. I know she had lost her mom and dad in terrible ways at a young age, but Cloud had lost more than that (in my opinion anyway). He had lost his mother in a fire, I don't think he knew his father, he lost Zack whom saved him from being a guinea pig as well as dead meat and most of all lost the confidence to fight when Aerith was murdered before his very eyes. To me, these memories aren't that hard to forget and maybe that's why Cloud wishes to be forgiven so badly. :(

I know Tifa meant well, but I think she was too enraged with his condition and didn't know how to tell him nicely or in an encouraging way. She has a heart , I realised that when she thought about Marlene and when she worried about Denzel, but I think she took it a little too far at one point.

Ok... I really don't know how to explain it , my mind's a blur now and I'm not even sure of what I wrote :wacko:.

Have you guys ever thought that Tifa was being sarcastic about, it could be possible that Tifa wants Cloud to forget about Aeris and about the incident in the City of the Ancients. I also think that even when Aeris asks Cloud, "Why can't you forgive yourself?" Cloud still thinks that he's a failure when he couldn't save Aeris's life. After all he protected her with his freewill, a sign that shows Cloud loved Aeris.

I have to agree... I always thought Tifa was talking about Sephy, too, especially since Sephy makes the statement about not becoming just a memory.

Besides, the Cloti's were wanting it to mean that Cloud and Tifa were emotionally overcome by their memories of Nibelheim or whatever. It now looks like Tifa's talking about being defeated by a memory, which would really point to Sephy rather than Aerith.

That can be true as in a way , she wants him to forget anything painful to get on with life (plus maybe go with her <_< ). But why do that when for all we know, he is pained be the effort to forget or he doesn't want to forget?

It may be it, but it may not just be Sephiroth, but maybe of whatever happened in the passed which includes whatever happened in the Shinra org. , too.