I never understood what the Clotis got from Cloud and Tifa's promise scene. Every Cloti shrine I go to makes it as this huuuuge symbolic scene between Cloud and Tifa.

My opinion?

Tifa was starry-eyed for a hero to come and save her, and pushed the promise on Cloud. All I ever saw was Tifa having to PLEAD Cloud to promise.

Am I the only one who sees it this way?

Nope, you're not. :lol: Most of us here see it the same way.

Tifa had to ask three times before Cloud finally agreed to it, and he didn't sound all that anxious about it. In fact, I think Tifa practically forces him into it. The last time she asks him, she says, "Come on--! Promise me----!" She didn't give Cloud much choice, did she?

If Cloud were truly that interested in Tifa, wouldn't he jump at a chance to do something like that for her?

You'll find a lot of people who agree here, Mahou! ^_^

I find it hilarious when Cloti's claim that "he was hesitant because he was so OMG SHOCKED that his TWOO LURVE was asking him". Seriously, if he was, wouldn't he be eager to make that promise? Also, he says, "All right.... I promise." Does that really seem like he wants to do it? Or does it seem more like hesitance?

Also, why would you ask someone, "Will you be in the newspapers if you do well?", unless you're only interested in fame and glory? Mind you, she asks this before she EVER suggests a promise of ANY kind.

:lmao: That's the way I see it, too. I think it gets even worse after she asks him if he'll be in the newspapers. She goes on to say this:

Tifa "Hey, why don't we make a promise?"
"Umm, if you get really famous and I'm ever in a bind....."
"You come save me, all right?"

Cloud should only come save her IF he becomes famous first?!? IF?!? Don't bother saving me unless you become famous first? <_< I think that's pretty low...

No, I would call it childish. Remember, they were kids when they made the promise--or rather, when Tifa forced the promise on Cloud. A cute kiddie scene between friends, maybe, but nothing romantic in my pov. ;)

I think it was pretty shallow because they were kids. Tifa wanted this big strong famous hero to come save her...seems like a dreamy-eyed adolescent fantasy to me.

Maybe he was just worried that he would never live up to her expectations...
Which come to think of it, is a big part of Cloud and Tifa's relationship. He could never be the "Cloud" that she wanted him to be. With Aerith, he could be just Cloud but with Tifa, the hero title had to come along with the package.
Even when they grew up, in a sense, Tifa's still expecting him to be a 'hero'.

Everyone's forgetting how Tifa made poor Cloud wait. <_< Wow, the romance is just dripping off that scene.

Yes, it may have been because they were kids, but that doesn't make it right. I think it shows how false Tifa's admiration/affection/whatever for Cloud was at that point. Regardless of how much she grew to truly love him later on, the foundation of her love for him was very false. All she's looking for is a hero who is strong. She looked in the newspapers for him after he left, even though she didn't know him well. The only way Cloud could make it into the newspapers is if he became the hero that she was looking for. Through daydreaming about Cloud in the newspapers, she was like a teenager looking for pics of Brad Pitt in a fan mag. She fell in love with a daydream, not Cloud.

I think both interpretations are possibile. There's no way we can know for sure. Cloud sounds hesitant to me, too - mostly because of the way Tifa demands that he promise her. It doesn't sound to me like she gave him much of a choice.

Why is the Promise considered so significant by Cloti's when it was Tifa's idea? Squall's the one who promised to be there for Rinoa. It wasn't Rinoa's idea - it was Squall's.

:lmao: True, true!! And don't forget that Cloud didn't think Tifa would show up because Cloud thought Tifa hated him. During the Lifestream Event, Cloud said this: "That night I called Tifa out to the well..." "I thought to myself Tifa would never come, that she hated me." Why would Cloud think that Tifa hated him if they were close childhood friends? Why would he think Tifa hated him if they were in love? :lmao:

But wasn't it stated that they weren't childhood friends, that Tifa let Cloud belive that, until he recovered his memories in the Lifestream, place where it was shown that Tifa never payed him attention at all, until he was blamed for what happened to her?

Yes, you're correct. Tifa was Cloud's childhood crush. They weren't friends when they were kids, but became friends as adults during the course of FFVII.

Yes, it was... I was sarcastically pointing out how it was specifically stated more than once that Cloud and Tifa were not close as children, yet the Cloti's insist that they were in love as children.

Some of us find that questionable. We were discussing that in this thread: A Crush on Tifa? There's really no conclusive proof that Cloud had a crush on Tifa - it's all from the interpretation of a few lines, and not all of us agree with it. We think Cloud's really talking about issues associated with her fall from the bridge.

I thought that the "promise scene" had a "cuteness" factor to it... but it didn't strike me as intending to be romantic per se. I've state before that I have no problem acknowledging some aspects of a "crush" between Tifa and Cloud (mostly Cloud to Tifa, who was too much the popular girl in town to give him a second glance), but in the long run this scene simple illustrates how close Cloud and Tifa WERE NOT when they were children (Tifa shows up late... gets Cloud to promise her that he'll rescue her if he gets famous... etc...). I think Tifa liked Cloud, in the sense that she thought he was a good guy and whatnot, but never had any real "feelings" for him when they were kids. I did get the impression, however, that Tifa found favor in Cloud's determination to join SOLDIER (I'm gonna give her a little credit and assume that just wanting to be rescued by someone famous was not her only motivation), and that that may have been the initial "spark" for Tifa to begin thinking of Cloud "in that way..." But, more than anything, I think it's primary purpose was to be a plot devise to further the storyline... lol.

I know that the childhood friends theme is also a resonating theme in Japanese culture. It's considered cutesy and sweet and romantic...trouble is, Cloud and Tifa were never childhood friends!(Ho hum, we sound like broken records and they never listen...)
And I can't say much about Square's opinion on childhood friends since the beginning. Look what happened between Serge and Leena, Crono and Lucca, Squall and Quistis...Cloud and Tifa! :angel:

Yup, it made you think that Cloud's thoughts are pretty 'stable' when it comes to things like his past and being a first Class Soldier...only to turn it all upside down in Disc two.

I think that it shows that Tifa is Cloud's link to the past, while Aerith is his link to the present, and probably to his (their) future.

I just thought the childhood promise scene was cute. They're still very young at this point, so it's hard for me to see how it would be romantic. Even if there were feelings, they're so young that they wouldn't even understand them. Childhood crushes are terribly akward. ^^; I think it's just a fond memory between two friends, you know? Like when you see a friend that you've been apart from for a while, a sort of "remember when we did that?" thing.

Yes, I think this is why the memory is relevant for the game. Not because it was a "romantic" scene, but because Cloud needed a stable memory in the lifestream to start from.

Well Cloud did say "I used to think they were all stupid." regarding Tifa's group, and that he was "different from those immature kids". Of course he retracted those words. But he had admitted that at one point of his life, he resented them.

This actually convinced he never had a crush on her in the Lifestream.

Ah, but he said "they" not "you (plural)", so either it's another botch in the translation (which is reasonably likely), or it's possible that Cloud wasn't including Tifa in that statement.

Edit: I just checked up the script at RPGamer to see if I was mistaken, and it turns out that Cloud actually says is this:

Young-Cloud: "Tifa always used to be with this three-some."
Tifa: "...That's right."
Young-Cloud: "I used to think...they were all stupid."
Tifa: "What?"
Young-Cloud: "You were all childish, laughing at every little stupid thing."
Tifa: "But we were children, back then."
Young-Cloud: "...I know. I'm the one that was stupid. I really wanted to play with everyone, but I was never allowed into the group. Then later...I began to think I was different... That I was different from those immature kids. That then...maybe... Just maybe, they would invite me in."

So, I think whether or not Tifa was included in his "they were all stupid" statement (I'm inclined to think that he was just talking about the other three children, though), he does say that he thought she was immature and childish. However, I think that it's more to do with his own childish defensiveness - he thinks they don't like him, so he tries to convince himself that they're not so great after all, and that he's better off alone. Resenting them is his way of coping with how he really feels, which is lonely, and actually wanting their friendship.

Of course that doesn't say anything about possible crush-feelings, but that's a whole different story, imho.

But Cloud's statement about "You were all childish, laughing at every stupid little thing" is his explanation of why he thought they were all stupid - so it does include Tifa.

It doesn't really matter whether it was childhood defensiveness or not, because it was still something that Cloud believed at the time he felt it. He didn't realize that he was wrong until he was older and able to look back at it in hindsight.

It's like people who used to hate Aerith. I'm sure you've heard people say that they used to hate Aerith, but they like her now. Even if they like her now, they still really hated her at one point. Realizing that your feelings were unjust or mistaken later in life doesn't mean that you didn't really have those feelings earlier.

Thanks for the quotes. Now I have an insight lol!

To me, whether if it is just pure childish defense because he really wanted to be accepted into that group, or if it means that Cloud really resent them as a kid, this shows how childish Cloud acted when he was that age. Tell me now, a kid that react that way,
1) Can he have a serious childhood crush?
2) Can he hold that crush until this day?
3) All in all, is it understandable why he could forget the promise? He is afterall, a mere childish kid who was being outcasted.

I totally agree wiv you all. we are all talking about the promise scene, but do we remember whem aerith asks cloud to be her body guard? he was alot more sureabout beaing aeris's body guard then rescuing tifa! am i right, or am i right? :cleris: cloud and aeris 4eva!

yeah.. it's real romantic alright. <_< "come on! promise me!" shut up, tifa, let the boy agree first. i don't think cloud was really sure about this, but tifa was just dragging him into it or else he'd get a black eye from her.

To me, the lines about them all being childish and stupid sound like pure resentment and envy. if he was with them alughing and joking, he wouldn't have thought it was dumb at all.

The only reason I think he disliked them was because they didn't care much for him and I think the fact that they were always hanging out with Tifa while he wasn't played a big part in that.

Cloud was lonely as a child, he never had any friends and from my eyes it seemed like he was picked on from time to time from Tifa's group. The main reason why Cloud started to resent them was because the fact that he was never allowed to join the group, the laugh at their jokes and to play their games.

And at his age at the time I'm sure he constantly asked himself "What's wrong with me?" "Is there something wrong with me?" which led him to believe that he was different from Tifa's group. That he somehow was special, but still he was never allowed into her "gang" and then he started to envy them, jealously grew and maybe even hate. But as he said himself in the Lifestream, that he did continue to hope they would let him in.

Later at Nibel Mountain, when he follows them and later it is just him and Tifa I can see two little things about it. The first is that he followed Tifa when no one else would to say protect her and if anything did happen to her, he would then save her and be invited into her group.

But I could see a tiny possiblity of a small crush he had on her. You've got to admit, when he follows her up the bridge is does kind of look like he did a small crush on her.

And after they fell, our poor little Cloud was then shouted at by her father. Blaming him for something he never did and that he was a really stupid kid. With Tifa being in a coma for seven days I'm sure that Cloud began to resent himself and forgot all about being a part of her group. He was probably grounded by his mother not to go outside and play or something and all he could do was sit and mope about it.

Of course, then he heard about Sephiroth and SOLDIER. Thinking that he would prove everyone wrong by becoming strong and a member of SOLDIER, he wouldn't be bullied anymore, pushed aside and maybe actually make some friends.

Then came the promise scene between him and Tifa. He still resented himself, thinking that Tifa hated him and that she would never actually show up. When she did, he didn't really say anything at first as he still indeed felt guilty. When he started talking about joining SOLDIER, he was kinda showing off that he would would be the best there is like Sephiroth.

And then she started talking about the promise, and he was didn't really like it. I would imagine that Cloud felt extremely hurt there. He wanted to be her friend, he thought that she might become his but after hearing:

"IF you get really famous"

I'm sure Cloud's feelings would have really been hurt at that. Thinking that even if he would join SOLDIER, Tifa would still think he was a nobody ONLY if he was in the papers. Which is why I think he was hesistant about accepting the promise. And she forced him into it and he really only said it shut her up :lmao:

And of course, Tifa actually did start to care about him. But it was Tifa's fault that he became the cold hearted guy she met seven years later. Look at all of the pain she put him through!

I actually did find it a tad romantic, but that was in the beginning when we were led to believe that Cloud and Tifa had been two previously very close childhood sweethearts whose relationship had been tragically torn apart by time and adulthood...

Ah, those sneaky Square bastards. :P

A point: I don't necessarily think of Tifa as shallow for wondering if Cloud would become famous. That seems like such a... harsh word, I suppose, for what I perceive to be a simple question by a simple girl. I really can't explain it too well, but I can say I didn't immediately think, "That shallow b*tch!" when she asked what she did.

Perhaps I simply forgave her because of her age. I honestly can't blame her for wondering about fame, when they were talking about being heroes and SOLDIER and Sephiroth. All three things are nearly synonymous with "fame". And I don't expect any deep thoughts to run through the mind of a popular, contented 14-year old teenage girl.

Cloud... now, Cloud, on the other hand. :wacko: He seemed to have a lot of emotional baggage compared to the other, seemingly carefree children of Nibelheim, but again, I attribute that to his age and the circumstances he grew up under.

--

Do I still find the scene romantic? Not really. There's too much emotional baggage behind these two to think of it as being a simple, romantic promise between two childhood friends.

I do wish that some Clotis would accept that these two weren't inseparable in their past, and instead admit that they had been estranged... and that in years to come, these almost-strangers managed to form a bond completely unlike their childhood's. That almost sounds like reasonable, believable "proof" showcasing the strength of their chosen coupling; more so than "No, Cloud and Tifa were joined at the hip since childhood!"

When they obviously were not.

Lynn, I totally agree with you. However, I'm not sure about this part:

You're probably right, but I was never popular at that age. I'm not now, either. I'm 15. I don't really run afetr fame and glory, but every-one's personality is diffreent, and I suppose being popular makes you want more. :tifa:

^Heheh, I admit I'm stereotyping a little there. My bad. :blush: I realise not all teenagers act that way; in fact, I've found several act matured for their age (and then there are the... exceptions. >_> But anyway.)

But compared to Cloud, who was so full of self-doubt and loneliness that it was just painful to watch him... Tifa seemed a heckuva lot more carefree to me. A typical teenage girl who adores famous stars (= SOLDIER) and was the darling of the school (= Nibelheim). So, of course, she ends up asking a typical question without really thinking about how it might look like to others. ^^

Speaking of the Promise scene, I hope this is as good a time as any to bring this up:

Could someone please tell me just what the heck Tifa was supposed to be doing there? ^^; Until now, I still haven't been able to figure it out... unless she was just rubbing dirt outta the eyes and Square felt the need to show that...

Wiping her eyes? I don't remember that. :blink: But it's a while since I played that bit. Maybe she's scratching her head, because she's wondering what do about anotherlittle boy to pick on. :cloud: :sad:

I remember she did make a gesture, but you know how the graphics were back then... suffice to say, the FFVII characters would've phailed horribly at charades.

"No, it was two syllables! TWO!"
"How the $!@# could I tell with your Lego fist?!"
"Didn't you see my fingers?!"
"We don't have fingers!!!"

Then again, it was a cold night... perhaps she was simply warming her face? :D

LOL!! :lol:

Tifa could definitely wack someone hard with a fist like that.

First, I completely agree with you, Lynn. Second, I remember that gesture Tifa made. I always thought she was giggling for some reason, but thie graphics make it hard to tell.

Why would she be crying, though? There doesn't seem to be a reason for that, because she didn't know Cloud all that well at that point.

Mahou, that's what I always thought too! I always thought she was laughing at that point. Kind of soft laughter, but as though something struck her as humorous. (You know, like she was thinking "hey, I had a crazy thought: what if I asked Cloud to be my hero?" Something childish and simple like that, you know that a young, slightly-spoiled town darling would think. :))

And I agree with you, too, Lynn. I don't consider teenagers "selfish", but they are often more focused on "self" without even meaning to be. (Although everyone is, even adults. :P) So, since she's the carefree doll of the town, this question is something that would probably occur to her naturally, and not something that's out of the ordinary for her. I don't really see her as "shallow" or "cruel" for this, but more thoughtless in the way very young people (and thirteen is only the beginning of teenage life, so she is still more child than woman) are, I suppose. ^_^ She probably had absolutely no idea what Cloud had suffered, because he'd never told her and if she listened to the people around her (like her father or her friends), she never would have asked him.

When I first played, I thought it was a cute scene, and in a different game, it would have been a nice romantic thing. But their past shows that they had no real bond before the "promise" scene, so it renders any romance rather nonexistant. You can't have a truly romantic promise unless there is love behind it or the ability to form a bond of love soon after. (Like when Cloud agrees to be Aerith's bodyguard, or Aerith and Zack make their promise after they'd been dating, stuff like that.)

Lynn:

I second that... :P
SOOO many twists! I wuv that game!

Exactly, Lynn. I completely agree here. Cloud and Tifa's relationship doesn't start to develop until they meet up again (at the beginning of the game) and become companions. Basically, I feel that during the game, he only really knew Tifa as long as he knew Aerith. I'm not sure I understand how some Clotis can claim they were long childhood sweethearts/friends who were destined to become THE couple.

Honestly, I do find the theme of "innocent friendship developing into love" quite romantic (The Legend of Dragoon). However, I feel that wasn't the case between Cloud and Tifa. I don't believe Cloud's tragic childhood had revolved around having a crush and wanting to be liked by the most popular little girl in town. The focus of his childhood was gaining admiration and wanting to be a hero...like the great Sephiroth whom he'd always admired. He probably felt that his dream of wanting to be a hero and noticed, was cut down when he "failed" to save Tifa from falling off that bridge. To redeem himself for having "failed", he thought he could join SOLDIER...because ultimately, that was the way to become a hero...to be just like the great Sephiroth. EVERYONE admired THAT guy. I thought Cloud clearly admited this during the lifestream sequence. Maybe it's just me.

Leon_Geeste:

Hrmms...I'm not sure I see things exactly how you see it. I still say Cloud followed Tifa when everyone else turned back not necessarely because he had a crush on her (that's speculation), but because he wanted admiration. He wanted people to admire him for being brave...because no one else was brave enough to follow her. IF he had saved her, everyone would have probably called him a hero, right? They would have noticed him...would have wanted to be friends with him. When he failed though, everyone shunned him instead. It didn't exactly turn out right. :no:
Poor Cloud...

Wingless:

If you remember...during the lifestream sequence, Tifa tries to apologize to Cloud about his childhood by saying that if only she had known about his problems, she would have tried to do something. So no...she didn't know what he was suffering when she and all her friends left him out. I also agree that Tifa's intention wasn't cruelty. Under the circumstance that she grew up as the popular and spoiled child in town, she honestly just couldn't "see" that Cloud was being left out and hurting.

Alan Bates:

I also think it was resentment and envy. However, I don't think it was so much that THEY got to hang with Tifa and HE didn't. I think he resented them because he felt they didn't think he was "good enough" to hang with them. HE couldn't save Tifa. HE was a "failure". He would never be "good enough". :(

And also, if you think about it, (I think I've mentioned this before. I can't remember anymore...) he forgot about the promise. When we saw the flashback, Tifa only wanted him to rescue her if he got famous. No, it couldn't have been a normal person from the village, it had to be Cloud and he had to be famous. It was like she only wanted him to save her if he was famous. I think she only cared about hanging out with a famous person.


(me babbling) Lets see, how many 'famous''s were there in there.... 4! WOOHOO! A record for me. lol

actually.. as i was thinking about it, i sort of changed my opinion a bit. it was quite romantic.. but it wasn't brought up in a romantic way because cloud sort of forgot the promise. i just found their actual promise as a romantic element but not the scene. because it was a saving component, and that is kind of cute ^.^ but the way tifa was making the promise with cloud was like a pressure sort of thing. even though i thought it was a bit romantic, it wasn't as cute as when aeris wanted cloud to be her bodyguard ^_^ <3

I agree. If somebody else made the same promise to another person, it would be, I guess, quite romantic. I didn't find Cloud & Tifa's promise scene that sweet because Tifa was sort of pushing Cloud. The actual promise they were focusing on was more of a friendly component in my view, too. I didn't find this a really romantic promise also because of the fact that Tifa related fame in it. It would be a promise that other friends would make with you too. I liked the way Aeris trusted Cloud in being her bodyguard because there was a sense of admiration from her. Cloud felt like he actually made someone feel proud and that someone believed in him. It was way cuter anyway heh :fangirl:

Edit:
Sorry if I frequently used the same words or if I was confusing.. :whistle:

I agree with ya all! Also, here's what I thought when I first saw it...

...

It looks like a 'younger sister nagging her older brother for something' scene.*sweatdrop*Sorry, that's what I thought. :whistle: It's Tifa's nagging, I'll tell ya! Not that I blame her.

Since I am replaying FFVII, I have seen the well scene recently. And, it did look like Tifa was rubbing her eyes. I have no idea why, though, because she had never even spoken to Cloud before then. :crazy:

Well, Tifa already said her thoughts "that all the boys are leaving town" and Cloud said he'd join SOLDIER to become the Great Sephiroth.

And yet Tifa shouted at years later that she hated ShinRa, war and SOLDIER. This was repeated in LO.

I wonder how she felt when she saw Cloud as a "SOLDIER" in the game. I'm sure it brought a lot of conflict in her bu his image.

OK. Wouldnt you hate Shnra soldier and sephirus if sephirus distroyed your home town and killed your father?

I dunno. I got that impression way before this.

During the Promise in the well scene, she doesn't seem enthusiastic about "the SOLDIER like Sephiroth" line Cloud was sying, IMO. What she did look forward for was Cloud rescuing her.

When Sephiroth came in Nibelheim, Tifa ran off.

And she said she hated Zack. Poor guy, he didn't mean that to happen. T.T

And in the boat (everyone dressed up as Shinra guards), she made an anti-war/fighting conversation with Cloud.