This is something I've seen a lot of recently - the argument made by C/T fans that the sky in FFVII is a recurring symbol which represents Cloud and Tifa's relationship/love/bond. I believe it was Angel Tifa that first came up with this idea, but I've seen other C/Ters use it, the most recent being TSQoH.

Anyway, I felt like taking a closer look...

To be fair, I think that AT was really onto something. The sky is a recurrent image in the game, so that's a well-observed symbol she has. However, I really do find it a bit much to portray this symbol as exclusively CloTi. I don't see how you can make it apply to just Cloud and Tifa. It's much bigger than that, in my opinion. The first time we see the sky used as a symbol isn't in fact in the Promise memory, but earlier on, and it's not constantly re-used in relation to Cloud and Tifa's characters.

Here's the Sky-Record:

[Correct me if I've missed something out]

* The character-renders during the disc change sequence all show Cloud, Aeris, Tifa, Yuffie, Cid, Nanaki and Vincent gaze up in the direction of the sky, each of them alone (note that Tifa is staring up at the "starry sky of childhood" all alone).

* The first time we see the sky used as an image in the game is at the game's beginning when we see a black sky full of stars before seeing Aeris' face.

* Next, when Barret remarks that no-one in the Midgar slums can see the sky. The sky is also out of reach even to the Upper-Plate dwellers, becuase it's stained black by fumes.

* Tifa's bar is called the Seventh Heaven.

* The fourth example is during the Promise scene, when Cloud and Tifa recall a childhood memory of illusionary closeness.

* At the end of the incomplete Midgar Road, the group see the real sky for the first time in a good while, just as their real adventure begins.

* Names that bring up images of the sky used in limit breaks (eg: Final Heaven). Aeris' limit break Great Gospel features an actual image of a blue sky with a triad of angels in it.

* The plates of Junon are blocking out the sky whilst Shinra pollutes its sea.

* Aeris confesses that she would like to go flying one day, a wish that later becomes very poignant after she fails to achieve this before her death.

* The Gold Saucer Theme Park is up high in the sky, but built of the fall of Corel.

* Sky-images are used repeatedly in Cosmo Canyon (in contrast to the Planet-imagery also heavily used there). There are images of planets and space and shooting stars, whilst the science and spirituality of the Lifestream are explained.

* Not really an image but contrast - Vincent is trapped sleeping underground for thirty years, and for him the sky has been unattainable.

* Cid Highwind...don't get me started on Cid! There's so much sky-imagery tied up to his character, dreams and story it's not even funny...

* Cid's greatest joy is flying and reaching the sky and he doesn't tolerate Shinra trying to take it from him.

* The sky is tied-up in his dreams - he dreams of reaching space and being the first pilot to fly to the ends of the universe.

* This dream was in his grasp and he could have reached space, but his human compassion and decency kept him on the ground. But he still keeps maintenance of the rocket, which could still make his dreams come true.

* Cid does reach space and escapes death there by the help of the woman who kept him on the ground all these years. He accomplishes his dream, and then says goodbye to it and to the Rocket that carries all the dreams and hopes of the people on the Planet that Meteor will be destroyed.

* The Gondola and the fireworks burning in the sky, for an all-too-brief romantic moment.

* Meteor itself, a threat from above that stains the sky red.

* Jenova is identified as "The Crisis from the Skies".

* Tifa is rescued from falling to her death by the Highwind, but immedately afterwards she expresses a lot of confusion and hopelessness.

* In the Lifestream, Tifa and Cloud recall the sky's image when searching for the truth about Cloud's self.

* The Condor Phoenix flys off into the sky.

* Parachuting into Midgar (falling from the sky) in order to confront what's left of Shinra, stop Hojo, whilst in the process the group learn more about Sephiroth.

* During the night under the Highwind, Tifa asks Cloud if he thinks the stars can hear them and know how hard they're fighting for them.

* The ending - though deep inside the Planet, the light and Aeris' hand give the illusion that they're appearing from the sky, or a kind of heaven.

* During the ending, the group are all in the sky, and we see the very final moments from a full sky-view, and then return to Aeris' face.

* After the 500 Years Later sequence, the Prelude plays as an image of the stars goes by.

That's a heck of a lot of imagery, isn't it? Massive, all-inclusive and complex. And much of it has little to nothing to do with Cloud and Tifa! There is a powerful recurring symbol here, but I just see much, much more to it than a starry sky of childhood. The image of the sky does far more than just refer to Cloud and Tifa's complex past. That seems pretty simplistic next to all these examples of how the symbol is used in the game. In my view, there's so much more to all this repeated imagery than just to keep Cloud and Tifa's promise in our minds. It's a much bigger symbol, and is so much more than an image of childhood and of Cloud and Tifa's supposed closeness. It represents something more universal than Cloud and Tifa's "romance".

So what does it represent? Well...in a game that's both dark and hopeful at the same time, I'd have to (right now, that is) go for the unattainable. The sky is tied up in images of characters searching, reaching, dreaming. Throughout, characters are grasping for something that's out of reach - a sky in Midgar, childhood feelings, memories, the truth, dreams that never came true, to change the past, to change one's self, a moment of peace, a girl that has to die, the beoynd, something greater than humans, hope, resolution, freedom, etc. All these things are beyond the characters' reach, and unattainable. To me, it doesn't suggest romantic closeness or a bond at all but something that's so far away it's beyond your reach. It's not exactly a hopeless image, because people keep trying, learning and growing, but it really doesn't strike me as a sweet, romantic image at all.

What do you think? :rolleyes:

Wooow.... you must've thought about this a lot to come up with an interpretation as good as this. x__X; I agree with you whole heartedly on this, and I'm kind of surprised as to why I didn't see this before. Can't say much more... my brain will fry from lack of food. D:

Many excellent points. And extra points for having the patience for typing all that up. :lol:

The Clotis way of looking at it is the typical "don't look for the real meaning beneath the surface because it's too hard" way of thinking. This definately shows how deep of imagery the sky holds and represents, making this supposed "romantic" promise into nothing but a common plot point. The sky holds meaning for all characters. Again, excellent points!

Wow...long...:wacko:

err...anyway, after my eyes recover, I'll be able to give a better response then this, but I wholeheartedly agree, excellent points and I admire your skill at analyzing FFVII. ^_^

Even if the clotis won't listen, and continue to claim that the starry sky is romantic, we see the flower field representing many aspects of love as well.

- Flowerfield scene between Cloud and Aeris
- Squall and Rinoa in the flowerfield
- In FFX-2, the Farplane, where you reunite with lost loved ones is depicted as a flowerfield.

Ugh. But the flowerfields aren't as romantic as the starry sky (which JENOVA came from, remember?), right? :rolleyes:

Hmmm, many very good points HB. I tended to just brush off the "Starry Sky" as irony, but this makes a bit more sense ;)

You've made a lot of very good points, HB. Well done! :D

Thanks, everyone! :huggle:

:ermm: But...you do know that what I meant when I asked what you thought was what do you think of the "starry sky of childhood" symbol, not what you thought of my post...right? I wasn't angling for congratulations! :lol:

So, does anyone want to discuss? :rolleyes:

I'll try my hand at discussing as my eyes have fully recovered from reading your rather long and detailed post. :lol:

The sky to me represented multiple things. When the game first starts in Midgar, the first thing you're almost "led" to believe is that the sky equates to freedom. The people of Midgar are held under the oppresive rule of Shinra and Shinra has blocked off the sky from the citizens of the slums both with the plates and the pollution it creates, thus "blocking" them from both the sky and their freedom. Note that Aeris' home, garden and church are the only places that truly have 'light' and 'sky', showing how she is NOT under the control of Shinra. No matter how many times they try to capture Aeris, they are unsuccesful (until she willingly gives herself up for Marlene's sake). She lives independently of their control.

The second meaning I believe the sky holds is that of "the great unknown". No one was really sure of what lays beyond it and due to one of the most defining of human traits (curiousity), all seek to discover the secrets of the unknown. Jenova, who is literally the 'crisis from the skies', comes from an unknown origin. Even the 'childhood promise' can be tied into it as Cloud grows up and ventures into the "unknown", which is in fact, Midgar.

Also, the sky holds the promise of adventure. As in the character renders, the main cast is all looking off into the distant, head towards the sky, waiting and ready for their journey to begin. Cid's dream is to go to space, which is quite the adventure if I may say so myself. Once again, Cloud while making the childhood promise is seeking, not just love, but adventure of a kind. He's going out on his own to brave the world outside of his "childhood home".

I'll add more later as I've not even touched on the symbolism of the 'heavens', but my hands and eyes are tired again. :lol:

The sky could mean a lot of things. In my point of view, I would interpret the sky in the game (considering Tifa's situation) like a dream that she could never achieve no matter what she does because it's so high and she cannot reach it; therefore, all she can do is just stare at it. It's like the past (the childhood thing by the well) that you cannot go back into unless you just visualize it in your mind and ponder about the what-might-have-been and the what-could-have-been... but in reality, you can naver really change it.

That's a good point Tifa Lockheart. Most of the characters have a dream (both literal or figurative) concerning the sky, but I don't think any of them reach it. Cid has his dream of reaching space and Aeris wants to ride on the Highwind. Also, as you said, since the sky is so high and unreachable, but appears so close, it's like reaching for the best, but falling short of it.

Wow...some excellent observations, guys! I love your ideas on this, MT, especially this:

I liked this idea very much, and completely agree. :aeris:

About the sky being the unattainable and out of reach, I agree with Tifa Lockheart that it does tie in with Cloud and Tifa quite well - when they talk by the Well, Cloud is talking about all his dreams, dreams of being famous and strong like Sephiroth (when at the same time, he's dreaming of being noticed and having friends at last), but this dream proves to be out of his reach. And when Cloud and Tifa remember this, it's always when they're reaching out for something, but the childhood memories are very distorted and out of reach.

I'd also venture that the sky can represent the past and the future...Aeris and Cid are looking at a dream in the sky which represents the future, while for Tifa and Vincent it seems to represent the past, as Vincent overlooks Sephiroth's birthplace and Tifa looks up at the the sky of a childhood memory she comes to treasure. With Cloud's render, I think past and future are fused - the Mako reactor respresents images from his past but at the same time foreshadows many things in his future; which is quite fitting for a man whose past comes to shape his future in a very direct way.

For Yuffie and Nanaki, I think the sky respresents loyalty and duty - Nanaki is in Cosmo Canyon at his father's side, while Yuffie is overlooking Wutai. Nanaki becomes the Canyon's guardian and Yuffie searches for a way to liberate Wutai, so I think these are two characters who, though they have dreams, are focused on their immedeate surroundings, not a far-away, ideal and unattainable dream.

And isn't it interesting how two very different characters - Cait Sith, controlled by a Shinra executive, and Barret the original leader of Avalanche - aren't looking at the sky at all? Cait is looking at Gold Saucer - which is built on a town destroyed by Shinra, and the place where he betrays the party, while Barret is with the girl who lost both parents due to Corel's burning, and both are looking at the flowers in Aeris' church.

An excellent post, Hyper, and some great thoughts by everyone so far.

This is a very interesting observation, and clearly there's a LOT of symbolism surrounding things heavenly/sky-oriented/celestial.

I'd like to contribute, but my brain is dead at the moment, so I'll just leave a few partial thoughts:


*Scenes of Aerith's face amid a starry-sky background, and Cloud reaching for her hand in the final FMV* - Aerith in the starry sky/celestial form represents Cloud's unattainable dream (of being with her) in the same sense that, as Tifa Lockheart pointed out, the starry sky represents her unattainable dream of being with Cloud.

That same symbolism could suggest Aerith as being a sort of holy, angelic, spiritual figure in the game as well (along with other examples: her favorite place is a church, she has special powers, is uncorrupted, the "HOLY" materia, etc...) Materia Thiefs observations about sunlight shining on Aerith's home can go along with this as well. There seems to be a lot of "celestial being" symbolism surrounding Aerith's character.

And last, but not least:

*Cloud <----- look at the name!!! :woot: lol

I love it when we turn philosphical. ^_^
I think the sky is a sort of 'universal' symbol, both in reality and fantasy. It can symbolize so many things: beginnings, endings, happy or painful memories, freedom, despair, indescribable joy, infinity...absolutely anything, the sky's the limit!(pardon the pun). And as a symbol in FF7, I believe it cannot be confined to any one character or any one scene. The sky is it is too big for that, literally and figuratively. It's just there...it's not going away and we can share it or be at solitude beneath it. It's not a specific symbolism like, say, Aerith's flowers or Cloud's wolf icons? Rather than being Cloud's and Tifa's alone, it's Cloud's, Aerith's, Tifa's, Nanaki's, Barret's, Yuffie's, Cait Sith's, Vinny's, Cid's, mine, yours, whoever-the-hell's ...and the poignancy of symbolism can vary depending on the person, the time, the place, the event.
So please, Clotis. The sky's big enough for all of us ;)

I don't have it in me to write a great interesting post at the moment unfortunately, but what about Meteor and Jenova? Perhaps even Sephiroth? He is called the one winged angel, and Angels are from heaven, which is associated with the sky.

Perhaps in a way they represent a threat to the sky which is portrayed as a good thing. To go further with that thought, maybe Aeris is being portrayed as a champion of the skies? Holy was brought from her to clear the skies of the evil, as well as the lifestream. Then we see her face in the sky. Maybe we should be associating the sky with her? It seems that the begining and end might be telling us that. Even her final limit break could symbolize this. She may not have gotten to fly in the highwind, but she saved those skies for all of the planet.

I ended up writing more than I planned and still have more to say, lol, but you should get the idea. I need to stop though because I hurt my back and need to lay down again soon.

TO EVERYONE: Man if I was your classmate, I'd ask to be your study budii and have you share your critiques to me on our class novel. I'd add something here, but my boyfriend is calling.... lol.

...?? I beg your pardon???

Man, I wouldn't mind having Hyper's shoulder to peek over!

He called over the phone...I didn't mean anything provocative lol. Sorrii ^ ^; maybe I should be more descriptive next time. O.o

Nah, it wasn't confusing

lol, sorry, slight misunderstanding on my part! ^^; sorry sorry coco!!!! :sad:

I think I remember Cid saying the space was so vast... so vast the Planet looked so small? It could be said the same towards the sky.

Interesting enough Cloud mentioned the ocean, which is similar to the sky. No matter how hard they struggle it won't change a thing...

Water can be a Cloud and Aerith thing. In VII and AC that's where Aerith was laid to rest. Cloud can see the White Materia in a projection of water. The Lifestream was mentioned by the old man in Mideel as some sort of water itself. And in AC when Aerith said, "Let's go, Cloud." with a drop of water as a visual.

There was a drop of water in the visual...? O__O I never noticed that wow...
*observes trailer closely*

thats odd...i dont see it.. >__< mine is when she says "let's go" he strikes his buster sword into the ground (or that floting piece of metal) and looks up. :fangirl:

is this a different trailer you're talking about?
the water just might mean something ^^

I heard from Anastar, umm can't find a thread, but it was being debated if that was a drop of water or the White Materia ^^.

Aww, I'd let you peek over my shoulder, Sefie! :huggle:

At the very least, Cid's getting in on their starry-sky action in some kind of threesome... :whistle:

That's a very interesting thought, Taco. Aeris has plenty of sky-association (I remember now that when Cait Sith predicted their compatability, he talked about Cloud and Aeris' stars). But the Lifestream, which she used to help Holy, came from the earth, so those are two fundamentally opposed elements there. Anti-R also brought up a good point about her being associated with water too (her burial, the water-projection). She's also assosiated with flowers, nature and earthly things - maybe the flowers represent her while she's living while the water represents her after death as intangible. It's interesting how Aeris universally occupies all the elements (sky, water, earth) except fire - Sephiroth's element.

My thoughts on the character pics...

Cloud looking at the ShinRa building: Romantic for me... here, he literally stormed in the enemy stronghold to save Aerith, and finds out that Sephiroth is alive and moving here. I can safely say that this is how the real journey begins for all of them.

Aerith looking at the Highwind: Guess she wanted to know what flying felt like. She made Cloud promised to take her there, but that unfortunately will not come to pass.

Tifa sitting on the well stargazing: Well, shows her clinging to the past. This was probably the only time they (Cloud and Tifa) get to talk to each other as children.

Barret with Marlene in Aerith's church: This was kinda sad... ironically when I first played the game and does that image in CD switching after Aerith's death I actually cried. But take note that Marlene seemed to have a connection with Aerith (especially when she was reunited with Barret at Elmyra's place, when she was used as hostage and the ending, where she and a bunch of kids actually felt Aerith's presence).

Nanaki: with his dad. This was where he finally finds out his place in the world, and how he should continue his journey with pride of his heritage (because remember, he did told Cloud he'd accompany them to that place. Good thing he changes his mind).

Cid: With the two things he love; the Tiny Bronco and the Rocket.

Vincent: Perched on ShinRa mansion in Nibelheim. His past ties a lot in that godforsaken place.

Yuffie: Wutai. On top of the Omni. Interesting to see that she scolded the people in the pagoda regarding "Leviathan and Omni are ashamed of you! (or something)", so it shows she's religious in her own way?

Cait Sith: It is interesting to note he was in the Chocobo place... this was where he gave the key of the Temple of the Ancients to Tseng...